I am not hoping for VG2,i expect less,that way if it exceeds expectations it might be good enough to play. I would expect this team went for a budget much smaller than VG,that is ok if they pack in loads of game design in a small package and just build it bigger as money comes in.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
One thing i tire of in the genre is very predictable coding.I hope all the content ideas leave us wondering and thinking,it gives up more of the surprise factor. One main area i really despise is predictable proximity aggro,i hope they can improve in that area. I hope to god it is not another "Tier" game with tiered gear and weapons that you MUST attain or you cannot further progress. I also pray for a non linear altaholic game,i want sub classes.
These areas are not much to ask and imo are a must .
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I'm looking for something with an oldschool vibe that gives a nod to EQ but improves on game mechanics the way VG did. Like the Bards in VG combining song elements to make unique songs that you could adapt to different situations and not have to worry about carpel.
At the same time it needs it's own identity, it can't just be EQ Next - For Real! or VG 2.0.
And big. Really big. Like, HUGE. It needs to be at least as big as EQ was in terms of square footage. And no poxy fast travel, and slow levels, no hitting the cap in 3 days, or 3 weeks, or 3 months now I come to think about it.
I could go on but it's easier to simply say I'm looking for a proper MMORPG.
I am expecting Vanguard 2. I am hoping for Everquest 1 modernized. I am fearing they and their hardcore supporters are stuck in a specific mindset. I hope they are not and that they can and will break out of it.
If by a specific mindset, you mean an mmorpg where your achievements actually mean something again, where progression takes time, and where there is high risk and high reward, ya we're pretty much stuck on that.
If however you think that we should break out of that mindset and be satisfied with another run of the mill mmo full of convenience and accessibility mechanics designed for people who don't really want to commit any time to their MMORPG, that won't be happening.
The closer Pantheon is to the mainstream the worse off it will be. I really think it will even fail horribly if its moves as close to the mainstream as Vanguard was. Its imperative that Pantheon stand out as an oldschool game that focuses on the challenging and rewarding gameplay starting at level 1 and focusing on the group and community aspects of the game.
We can start with the mindset that assume any hints of critical thinking means they are out to destroy the game and make it another wow formula themepark.
Anyways, the mindset I am referring to is being set on very specific game mechanics, and not being able to be open minded about anything new. I think eq is the greatest mmorpg ever made, and none other come close enough to even compare, but I do not think that everything was perfect in 1999, in fact most of what made eq great was added during the next 5 years and that especially includes luclin and pop and ldon that some 99 purists don't like. 99 purism is what I call being stuck in a specific mindset. I hope for a game that extends the good things eq had going, with modernized thnking and not an exact copy of the past. The 2k players from p99 and the vg crowd are not enough to support that grand mmorpg we have been dreaming of since story driven themeparking changed the definition of mmorpg.
I don't think an unsubstantiated statement about hardcore (oldschool) fans being stuck in a specific mindset qualifies as critical thinking.
I agree that no particular era of fans represent enough support
for Pantheon. However, I'm not sure what in particular you felt was
added to eq after the classic era (launch-velious) that really improved
the game. Velious was the last expansion where EQ had significant player
growth, and after that point there was a continual pattern of departure
from the original vision of the game.
I haven't seen anything that leads me to believe any portion of Pantheon's fanbase is advocating a strict adherence to only classic EQ. I do, however, believe that is the right place to start.
Well first, the numbers I can dig up says eq player base peaked in 2004, then dropped fast. This also support my memory of it, which is that the ultra hardcore GoD expansion was when players abandoned.
I know you wont change your opinion about classic eq because that is a matter of taste and at which time you had the best experiences, but for me I felt the game really opened up after that, especially: AA - the single most important addition to eq Highly Improved client, luclin models. beastlords, kei and other long lasting buffs. ldon .. Loved it to death. prayer shawl quest etc
Realistically, As a fan, I'll give my honest opinion of what I'm expecting.
Vanguard 2 is the best way to explain it. Using the live stream on Twitch a few months back as my guide, I'll have to admit, much looks the same. As I often say I'm not a programmer. But it seems developers often keep a fixated way of creating mmos, much like an artist signature.
I'm expecting graphics to be slightly outdated or maybe a little more than that. I'm expecting the animation's and creatures to be chunky in their actions. I'm not expecting the total overall game environment to really feel natural. As you approach an npc I would expect it would give you that odd look as you speak to them. Much of this will have an EQ2 and Vanguard, old school way about it.
Sounds negative right ?
Well then, all hope is not lost !.............Infact from a game play prospective Visionary Realms will far exceed anything to date on a grand scale. Monsters, traps and predicament's the player will experience will be mind blowing good !!!.....The player groups will have to think and discuss as a well oiled unit. Most of the content will be hard, but not in a way of just combat, but to find weakness, and strategy.
Overcoming weaknesses, and using strategy is rare in mmos. I think Brad and his team will give us an amazing adventure. Sure, the casual's will be shocked, but as long as their social and willing to work as a team, they too will find Pantheon intriguing.
So get over graphics, Get over having that $600 video card ( I have one too ). Play for real adventure !!!!!
What are you expecting ?
I am expecting nothing, Visionary Realms' Kickstarter campaign for fantasy massively multiplayer online role-playing game, Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen, failed to achieve its goal.
The campaign drew to a close earlier today with just over $460,000 pledged — little more than half of its $800,000 goal. More than 3,100 backers contributed.
I mean seriously now lol. Brad McQuaid revealed that Vanguard had a development budget of $30.000.000,00
30 mil, vrs less then a small milking truck company makes in a year? I don't understand how you guys fall for this garbage lol.
I mean look at this game, it a single player adventure game which made almost as much as they did. http://www.hero-u.net/leaders/, 400k, and they won't release that simple kind of game till 2020.
I mean vanguard was in development for 5+ years, had a huge budget, and it still came out buggy as hell. I am not sure why any one in their right mind would think a kick starter game with 400k, could even come close to vanguard level of anything. I mean I don't think I have even seen a MMO that was kick started that wasen't utter trash. Maybe Star citizen has a chance, but def not this game. I am sure they will come out with something, but it def won't meet your expectations if you expecting a vanguard 2.
Meaning, I don't expect anything at all, and I believe that expectation will be met.
I really want to see the hopes and dreams realized with a great MMORPG... but...
Let's be realistic. I know what happened with SOE, Verant, Sigil Games, and the Pantheon kick starter. The whole thing could amount to nothing and get cancelled. It could be horribly mismanaged, again, it could turn out to be a pipe dream. I loved EQ and Vanguard but there were some problems...
I don't really expect much.
It's a lot like that lowered expectations Mad TV dating sketch...
The really sad part is Pantheon is the last hope for some people.
I mean I hope they pull it off and it's all sunshine and rainbows but I have some doubts that will happen.
Lowered Expectations
Lol they aren't gonna pull it off. There budget is smaller than most Americans retirement, and some how they are gonna pull off the best MMO since WOW, ahaha it will be lucky if they even get a game, that works, let alone a game, with serious balance, fun , and the rest of that good stuff.
"Pantheon, What are you expecting?" , Nothing. Not sure why people in this thread are writing 500 word essays.
Fun to do some times
If it's worth saying, it's worth saying bombastically. Perhaps with an extended Abe Simpsonesque ramble about how things used to be better before cell phones, and why people are don't have the gumption they used to back in WW2, where I was a submarine captain for Mongolia and would meet every week to paint the town red with my good friend, Emperor Hirohito. The geisha dresses were comfortable, too.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Im not sure why people that obviously want nothing to do with this game want to come in and bash it or want its core design to change? Internet boredom? This always kills me, no matter the forum. I understand people dont want, like or believe in the game. Thats fine and nothing wrong with it. I dont like FFXIV but I dont go over to those forums to troll the fans with how much I dislike the game or to petition that the game do a U-turn and become FFXI. It just does not make any damn sense to me. How can people be so passionate about something like that, because I cant get up the motivation to waste my time to actively troll a game I want nothing to do with. Why do some of you care so much what others do with their time, energy, and money? I know I dont. I dont have a problem if people love actiony or more solo friendly or heavy crafing mmos. Its not my cup of tea, but to each his/her own. Now anyone that does have interest in the game, then that is great. But there is a difference between constructive criticism and trolling. Because It is not constructive, if its destructive to the core tenets or major design features of the game.
Two suggestions: 1. Wait for it to come out and give it a serious try. 2. Move along! Stop wasting my time and yours.
On topic: Many people do, as someone above mentioned, expect this to be our last hope for the kind of MMO we want. And yes they mostly include EQ players. But there are plenty of other homeless old school gamers like myself a FFXI vet.
I'm expecting a reiteration of VG, I just hope it's not the buggy exploitable mess it ended up being released as because that game had immense potential, but i'm holding out until release because I just don't trust Brad to lead a team to a win. Hopefully i'll be happily wrong.
Well first, the numbers I can dig up says eq player base peaked in 2004, then dropped fast. This also support my memory of it, which is that the ultra hardcore GoD expansion was when players abandoned.
I know you wont change your opinion about classic eq because that is a matter of taste and at which time you had the best experiences, but for me I felt the game really opened up after that, especially: AA - the single most important addition to eq Highly Improved client, luclin models. beastlords, kei and other long lasting buffs. ldon .. Loved it to death. prayer shawl quest etc
I agree, there are a few things like AAs that didn't fundamentally change the game, but they came with other things that did.
Yes, the game peaked in 2004, but after 2001 the pop was mostly pretty static around 425-450k. Before that it was growing exponentially. There are other factors involved like the introduction of other mmos (daoc) for sure, but most people agree EQ departed from the vision and embarked on a more raid focused, themepark approach rather than the virtual world it was originally intended to be.
People can like whatever they want. There is no right or wrong opinion. That said, EQ still exists for people who like what it became. There is no reason to recreate a game that is still playable with ongoing development.
Those of us who want a virtual world in the spirit of classic EQ, there is nothing (no - tired emus do not count). That is the idea Brad sold us on with Pantheon and the reason I support the game.
Reading through this thread, I realized I hadn't stated my own expectations. So, here goes.
I hope Pantheon will not simply be a reincarnation of EQ1 or Vanguard with modern graphics. I think that is one element that would only lead to a failure for this title. The time commitment required by the older games was expected and tolerated by the 1999-2004 era players. That same play-forever-to-get-halfway-to- where-you-want-to-be attitude doesn't seem to be something the modern player base wants.
My reasoning: a very large proportion of the early era players came from a table-top role playing tradition. These people were accustomed to long running campaigns, some running years. Those players have moved on, and there simply isn't a thriving population of D&D players who have never seen a MMORPG before to replace that player base. In-person gaming of every genre has been on the decline, including the PnP root games this industry is based on. Everyone who is interested in MMORPGs has either tried the existing crop and moved on, or they are still in some game or another. There's no new glut of people waiting to replace those who have discovered a great truth -- 'maturity kills free time'.
I think the key to current and future success is doing something new and innovative. I think there is a very real danger for a business to draw its sole inspiration from the past. Pantheon seems to be doing exactly that, and I feel that will be Pantheon's main hurdle. I've got years invested into my EQ1 characters, I don't have the energy or desire to invest significant time into a new title unless it really blows be away. I doubt that graphics alone is going to do that.
Pantheon does look exceptional, even in its current state. But there's nothing new. A group of fighters beat up a mob, while specialists work to keep the group from being overwhelmed with specialized tasks. It's a good formula, but it traces its roots back to the fighter, thief, cleric, and mage classes; and that model is approaching its 45th birthday. That formula isn't new. Throwing a thesaurus at the problem and shuffling the abilities around isn't going to make it new or different or exciting.
So, my expectations for Pantheon. I expect I will play Pantheon when it comes out. I expect to be happy with the graphics, and maybe even the clever veneer on old familiar systems will impress me for awhile. In the end, I expect that I will find another game with its feet shackled by the past. I hope that Pantheon will surprise me, and give me something new, or a completely different take on the MMORPG. I don't expect that, though. I will spend some time exploring aspects of the game, looking for that spark of innovation that I feel the genre needs. I hope the time spent there will be entertaining, but I cannot envision myself playing Pantheon longer than 4-6 months. I'll give them every chance to amaze me, milking whatever enjoyment I can from the title, then walk away. I hope they do amaze me.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
I hope Pantheon will not simply be a reincarnation of EQ1 or Vanguard with modern graphics. I think that is one element that would only lead to a failure for this title. The time commitment required by the older games was expected and tolerated by the 1999-2004 era players. That same play-forever-to-get-halfway-to- where-you-want-to-be attitude doesn't seem to be something the modern player base wants.
My reasoning: a very large proportion of the early era players came from a table-top role playing tradition. These people were accustomed to long running campaigns, some running years. Those players have moved on, and there simply isn't a thriving population of D&D players who have never seen a MMORPG before to replace that player base. In-person gaming of every genre has been on the decline, including the PnP root games this industry is based on. Everyone who is interested in MMORPGs has either tried the existing crop and moved on, or they are still in some game or another. There's no new glut of people waiting to replace those who have discovered a great truth -- 'maturity kills free time'.
Isn't it possible that people moved on because there wasn't a game suitable for roleplay that also offered the traditional combat and other mechanics derived from dnd, muds and other older games? I mean really, what would you suggest someone play that was looking for that experience. A lot of people would like to know.
I'm sure you're right that some players have indeed moved on. Yet I still think there is a market for that kind of game. Pantheon will offer something unique, and I think its likely new players will find it fresh, even if it isn't totally "new".
You have to keep this in perspective. They have no intention of seeking mass appeal. This is a game for a specific audience that want an immersive fantasy world with challenging cooperative gameplay. Hundreds of thousands of active players aren't necessary for them to accomplish that goal.
I am expecting Vanguard 2. I am hoping for Everquest 1 modernized. I am fearing they and their hardcore supporters are stuck in a specific mindset. I hope they are not and that they can and will break out of it.
If by a specific mindset, you mean an mmorpg where your achievements actually mean something again, where progression takes time, and where there is high risk and high reward, ya we're pretty much stuck on that.
If however you think that we should break out of that mindset and be satisfied with another run of the mill mmo full of convenience and accessibility mechanics designed for people who don't really want to commit any time to their MMORPG, that won't be happening.
The closer Pantheon is to the mainstream the worse off it will be. I really think it will even fail horribly if its moves as close to the mainstream as Vanguard was. Its imperative that Pantheon stand out as an oldschool game that focuses on the challenging and rewarding gameplay starting at level 1 and focusing on the group and community aspects of the game.
We can start with the mindset that assume any hints of critical thinking means they are out to destroy the game and make it another wow formula themepark.
Anyways, the mindset I am referring to is being set on very specific game mechanics, and not being able to be open minded about anything new. I think eq is the greatest mmorpg ever made, and none other come close enough to even compare, but I do not think that everything was perfect in 1999, in fact most of what made eq great was added during the next 5 years and that especially includes luclin and pop and ldon that some 99 purists don't like. 99 purism is what I call being stuck in a specific mindset. I hope for a game that extends the good things eq had going, with modernized thnking and not an exact copy of the past. The 2k players from p99 and the vg crowd are not enough to support that grand mmorpg we have been dreaming of since story driven themeparking changed the definition of mmorpg.
I don't think an unsubstantiated statement about hardcore (oldschool) fans being stuck in a specific mindset qualifies as critical thinking.
I agree that no particular era of fans represent enough support
for Pantheon. However, I'm not sure what in particular you felt was
added to eq after the classic era (launch-velious) that really improved
the game. Velious was the last expansion where EQ had significant player
growth, and after that point there was a continual pattern of departure
from the original vision of the game.
I haven't seen anything that leads me to believe any portion of Pantheon's fanbase is advocating a strict adherence to only classic EQ. I do, however, believe that is the right place to start.
Well first, the numbers I can dig up says eq player base peaked in 2004, then dropped fast. This also support my memory of it, which is that the ultra hardcore GoD expansion was when players abandoned.
I know you wont change your opinion about classic eq because that is a matter of taste and at which time you had the best experiences, but for me I felt the game really opened up after that, especially: AA - the single most important addition to eq Highly Improved client, luclin models. beastlords, kei and other long lasting buffs. ldon .. Loved it to death. prayer shawl quest etc
I wonder what else happening in 2004... oh wait thats right WoW launched. Let's not kid ourselves, EQ was shit well before 2004, somewhere maybe in 2002, but a lot of players (myself being one of these) did not abandon ship until a valid alternative was present. EQ2 was a joke, most of us tried it and left in a week.
I hope I'm wrong, but I expect little but a niché experience that will all but die once the dedicated fans have had their fill of nostalgia.
As much as I hear players claiming they want to invest a large part of their life into an old-school progression-driven extended treadmill with limited meaningful content - I simply don't believe many will stick around for that long.
You can't understand it because its not your preference. Its tantamount to claiming you don't understand why people like chocolate ice cream when all you eat is cookies and cream. Because you think cookies and cream is better others will therefore get tired of chocolate.
What we like about Pantheon has nothing to do with nostalgia. Nostalgia is only a feeling, and a short term one at that. I've gone back and played to cap on EQ emulators over half a dozen times in the last decade. Why? Because the gameplay is more satisfying. I eventually get bored because there is only a limited amount of "classic" content, but its fun to me every time and not because it recaptures some feeling I experienced in my childhood. It is just more challenging and more fun, plain and simple.
I'm afraid I don't accept your voice as the voice of everyone.
I don't agree that I can't understand something because I disagree with you. I don't know why you think disagreeing means the inability to understand - but that sounds like an ego problem to me.
As for your EQ story, it kinda supports my point. You're talking about a game with absolutely massive amounts of content - and you've exhausted that "half a dozen times".
Do you honestly expect Pantheon to have anywhere near that kind of content? How long do you think it will take you to tire of what little unique content they can deliver - given the size of the budget and team involved?
What I'm talking about is long-term play - not short-term play.
6 months? Sure, quite a few players will stick around that long. But 1+ years? I doubt it.
I hope I'm wrong, but I expect little but a niché experience that will all but die once the dedicated fans have had their fill of nostalgia.
As much as I hear players claiming they want to invest a large part of their life into an old-school progression-driven extended treadmill with limited meaningful content - I simply don't believe many will stick around for that long.
For the game to have hope, it certainly has to be more than your descriptor indicates. Old school progression as an example isn't a bad thing as long as there is something interesting to keep one occupied though-out that progression. Lack of meaningful content, that's something we can't really comment toward yet, it could be filled with meaningful content (emphasis on could).
Honestly it's best to not judge this game based on what you read in forum posts, pay attention to the devs. Posters simply focus on buzzwords and arbitrary reasoning, which does the actual pitches from the devs a huge disservice. They'e described having a lot of different features in terms of content as well as narrative, they don't stick to buzzwords like "hardcore" no hand-holding" challenge" etc... They've laid out some decent ideas in terms of keeping one occupied, as well as making the world interesting.
People here just largely want to beat their chests claiming to be hardcore and craving challenge. They spend little time detailing what would make such a game interesting.
I suppose it depends on what kind of experience you have, following the gaming industry.
All I can say is that given the size of the team and the budget involved - it's all but humanly impossible to create "meaningful content" that can last much beyond 6 months, unless you stretch it very, very thin.
No matter how great your design and how talented your team - it inevitably takes a massive amount of time to create distinct content, whether that's quality writing, dungeons, items, art assets and so on.
That's just reality.
Beyond that, the standard of the industry has exploded when it comes to asset quality. It's much harder to get away with mediocre quality if you hope to sustain yourself for years.
I suppose it depends on what kind of experience you have, following the gaming industry.
All I can say is that given the size of the team and the budget involved - it's all but humanly impossible to create "meaningful content" that can last much beyond 6 months, unless you stretch it very, very thin.
No matter how great your design and how talented your team - it inevitably takes a massive amount of time to create distinct content, whether that's quality writing, dungeons, items, art assets and so on.
That's just reality.
Beyond that, the standard of the industry has exploded when it comes to asset quality. It's much harder to get away with mediocre quality if you hope to sustain yourself for years.
You do realize EQ was created the old fashioned way by creating their own engine, using old programming and design tools, and they did it with under 5 mill according to Smedley.
I'm not so sure how familiar you are with the design process. You think because people blow 50 million on voice actors and overpriced crap then another 50 mill on advertising that it somehow means thats whats necessary in 2016. Its not.
I suppose it depends on what kind of experience you have, following the gaming industry.
All I can say is that given the size of the team and the budget involved - it's all but humanly impossible to create "meaningful content" that can last much beyond 6 months, unless you stretch it very, very thin.
No matter how great your design and how talented your team - it inevitably takes a massive amount of time to create distinct content, whether that's quality writing, dungeons, items, art assets and so on.
That's just reality.
Beyond that, the standard of the industry has exploded when it comes to asset quality. It's much harder to get away with mediocre quality if you hope to sustain yourself for years.
You do realize EQ was created the old fashioned way by creating their own engine, using old programming and design tools, and they did it with under 5 mill according to Smedley.
I'm not so sure how familiar you are with the design process. You think because people blow 50 million on voice actors and overpriced crap then another 50 mill on advertising that it somehow means thats whats necessary in 2016. Its not.
You seem to ignore what I'm saying.
Standards for asset quality have changed completely - and the detail involved in creating animations, models, meshes, textures and so on has increased almost exponentially over the years.
Beyond that, standards for content consumption have changed along the way. EQ could get away with mostly empty landmass and 99% PvE mob grinds back in 1999 - because people hadn't seen anything else. The very idea of a virtual world was fresh and exciting enough to sustain gameplay for a very long time, albeit for smaller audience of hardcore players.
That's what happens when games evolve and investors are trying to maintain the playerbase. Games have been released and changed what people expect.
That's what this debate is about.
Either you're right - and hundreds of thousands of players are perfectly willing to "make do" with substandard quality assets and old design paradigms - or you're not right.
Comments
I would expect this team went for a budget much smaller than VG,that is ok if they pack in loads of game design in a small package and just build it bigger as money comes in.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
One main area i really despise is predictable proximity aggro,i hope they can improve in that area.
I hope to god it is not another "Tier" game with tiered gear and weapons that you MUST attain or you cannot further progress.
I also pray for a non linear altaholic game,i want sub classes.
These areas are not much to ask and imo are a must .
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I keep watching every video they release and the game just keeps looking worse.
Also, it looks nothing like the screen shots on the website that have been there before any of the video reveals.
Intentional misleading.
At the same time it needs it's own identity, it can't just be EQ Next - For Real! or VG 2.0.
And big. Really big. Like, HUGE. It needs to be at least as big as EQ was in terms of square footage. And no poxy fast travel, and slow levels, no hitting the cap in 3 days, or 3 weeks, or 3 months now I come to think about it.
I could go on but it's easier to simply say I'm looking for a proper MMORPG.
I know you wont change your opinion about classic eq because that is a matter of taste and at which time you had the best experiences, but for me I felt the game really opened up after that, especially:
AA - the single most important addition to eq
Highly Improved client, luclin models.
beastlords, kei and other long lasting buffs.
ldon .. Loved it to death.
prayer shawl quest
etc
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
The campaign drew to a close earlier today with just over $460,000 pledged — little more than half of its $800,000 goal. More than 3,100 backers contributed.
I mean seriously now lol. Brad McQuaid revealed that Vanguard had a development budget of $30.000.000,00
30 mil, vrs less then a small milking truck company makes in a year? I don't understand how you guys fall for this garbage lol.
I mean look at this game, it a single player adventure game which made almost as much as they did. http://www.hero-u.net/leaders/, 400k, and they won't release that simple kind of game till 2020.
I mean vanguard was in development for 5+ years, had a huge budget, and it still came out buggy as hell. I am not sure why any one in their right mind would think a kick starter game with 400k, could even come close to vanguard level of anything. I mean I don't think I have even seen a MMO that was kick started that wasen't utter trash. Maybe Star citizen has a chance, but def not this game. I am sure they will come out with something, but it def won't meet your expectations if you expecting a vanguard 2.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Two suggestions: 1. Wait for it to come out and give it a serious try.
2. Move along! Stop wasting my time and yours.
On topic: Many people do, as someone above mentioned, expect this to be our last hope for the kind of MMO we want. And yes they mostly include EQ players. But there are plenty of other homeless old school gamers like myself a FFXI vet.
Yes, the game peaked in 2004, but after 2001 the pop was mostly pretty static around 425-450k. Before that it was growing exponentially. There are other factors involved like the introduction of other mmos (daoc) for sure, but most people agree EQ departed from the vision and embarked on a more raid focused, themepark approach rather than the virtual world it was originally intended to be.
People can like whatever they want. There is no right or wrong opinion. That said, EQ still exists for people who like what it became. There is no reason to recreate a game that is still playable with ongoing development.
Those of us who want a virtual world in the spirit of classic EQ, there is nothing (no - tired emus do not count). That is the idea Brad sold us on with Pantheon and the reason I support the game.
I hope Pantheon will not simply be a reincarnation of EQ1 or Vanguard with modern graphics. I think that is one element that would only lead to a failure for this title. The time commitment required by the older games was expected and tolerated by the 1999-2004 era players. That same play-forever-to-get-halfway-to- where-you-want-to-be attitude doesn't seem to be something the modern player base wants.
My reasoning: a very large proportion of the early era players came from a table-top role playing tradition. These people were accustomed to long running campaigns, some running years. Those players have moved on, and there simply isn't a thriving population of D&D players who have never seen a MMORPG before to replace that player base. In-person gaming of every genre has been on the decline, including the PnP root games this industry is based on. Everyone who is interested in MMORPGs has either tried the existing crop and moved on, or they are still in some game or another. There's no new glut of people waiting to replace those who have discovered a great truth -- 'maturity kills free time'.
I think the key to current and future success is doing something new and innovative. I think there is a very real danger for a business to draw its sole inspiration from the past. Pantheon seems to be doing exactly that, and I feel that will be Pantheon's main hurdle. I've got years invested into my EQ1 characters, I don't have the energy or desire to invest significant time into a new title unless it really blows be away. I doubt that graphics alone is going to do that.
Pantheon does look exceptional, even in its current state. But there's nothing new. A group of fighters beat up a mob, while specialists work to keep the group from being overwhelmed with specialized tasks. It's a good formula, but it traces its roots back to the fighter, thief, cleric, and mage classes; and that model is approaching its 45th birthday. That formula isn't new. Throwing a thesaurus at the problem and shuffling the abilities around isn't going to make it new or different or exciting.
So, my expectations for Pantheon. I expect I will play Pantheon when it comes out. I expect to be happy with the graphics, and maybe even the clever veneer on old familiar systems will impress me for awhile. In the end, I expect that I will find another game with its feet shackled by the past. I hope that Pantheon will surprise me, and give me something new, or a completely different take on the MMORPG. I don't expect that, though. I will spend some time exploring aspects of the game, looking for that spark of innovation that I feel the genre needs. I hope the time spent there will be entertaining, but I cannot envision myself playing Pantheon longer than 4-6 months. I'll give them every chance to amaze me, milking whatever enjoyment I can from the title, then walk away. I hope they do amaze me.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
I'm sure you're right that some players have indeed moved on. Yet I still think there is a market for that kind of game. Pantheon will offer something unique, and I think its likely new players will find it fresh, even if it isn't totally "new".
You have to keep this in perspective. They have no intention of seeking mass appeal. This is a game for a specific audience that want an immersive fantasy world with challenging cooperative gameplay. Hundreds of thousands of active players aren't necessary for them to accomplish that goal.
I don't agree that I can't understand something because I disagree with you. I don't know why you think disagreeing means the inability to understand - but that sounds like an ego problem to me.
As for your EQ story, it kinda supports my point. You're talking about a game with absolutely massive amounts of content - and you've exhausted that "half a dozen times".
Do you honestly expect Pantheon to have anywhere near that kind of content? How long do you think it will take you to tire of what little unique content they can deliver - given the size of the budget and team involved?
What I'm talking about is long-term play - not short-term play.
6 months? Sure, quite a few players will stick around that long. But 1+ years? I doubt it.
We'll see, I suppose.
All I can say is that given the size of the team and the budget involved - it's all but humanly impossible to create "meaningful content" that can last much beyond 6 months, unless you stretch it very, very thin.
No matter how great your design and how talented your team - it inevitably takes a massive amount of time to create distinct content, whether that's quality writing, dungeons, items, art assets and so on.
That's just reality.
Beyond that, the standard of the industry has exploded when it comes to asset quality. It's much harder to get away with mediocre quality if you hope to sustain yourself for years.
I'm not so sure how familiar you are with the design process. You think because people blow 50 million on voice actors and overpriced crap then another 50 mill on advertising that it somehow means thats whats necessary in 2016. Its not.
Standards for asset quality have changed completely - and the detail involved in creating animations, models, meshes, textures and so on has increased almost exponentially over the years.
Beyond that, standards for content consumption have changed along the way. EQ could get away with mostly empty landmass and 99% PvE mob grinds back in 1999 - because people hadn't seen anything else. The very idea of a virtual world was fresh and exciting enough to sustain gameplay for a very long time, albeit for smaller audience of hardcore players.
That's what happens when games evolve and investors are trying to maintain the playerbase. Games have been released and changed what people expect.
That's what this debate is about.
Either you're right - and hundreds of thousands of players are perfectly willing to "make do" with substandard quality assets and old design paradigms - or you're not right.
It's that simple.