While I have hopes for the title to be another EQ1 style mmorpg.
I loved EQ1 back in the day, but it did have somethings I hated about it.
I put up with those bad things as there was no better choice; however, there are many choices these days. The mmo market is rather flooded.
As I have gotten older the list of things I hated in EQ1 has dwindled to, but one item now. I hate my gear being on my corpse. Naked corpse runs were no fun at all for me. I hated losing xp, and un-leveling being a possiblity, but those don't bother me now like they did. My gear on my corpse though is still unacceptable.
I will try it due to nostalgia, but that will not guarantee my staying in this title.
And so help me, if 'The Vision' gets mentioned at all.....
While I have hopes for the title to be another EQ1 style mmorpg.
I loved EQ1 back in the day, but it did have somethings I hated about it.
I put up with those bad things as there was no better choice; however, there are many choices these days. The mmo market is rather flooded.
Flooded with crap mmo's you mean. Pantheon doesnt need BDO style character creation or bunny hop jump flip roll dodging to make it. It doesnt need to be more like the dozens of other mmos flooding the market that we arent playing.
Please don't make casters sit on their asses during combat in order to squeeze out that extra 50 mana points. I want my druid to be able to stand and move around while regening mana. I have nothing against camping, but I detest the idea that you cannot dungeon crawl or meander while hunting because you or your group mates have to sit on their asses to regen mana.
I'm playing Priest in Vanilla WoW right now, Pure healer.
So even Vanilla WoW has a mana problem. It's the cost of large battles. I don't really see a problem.
HOWEVER I have a little trick I use. What ever caster class I play, I use wands to fight, this doesn't use mana and very effective.........People are amazed at how I can heal, fight, and still have mana
Now as far as Pantheon and viewing the two live streams. I am concerned about the downtime may be too long.
While I do have some concern that mana regen will be too much of a hassle like it was in classic EQ before the advent of KEI, my greater concern is that you will be forced to sit in order to regenerate the mana. I want to be able to stand up and move around or even participate in combat while regenerating that mana. This allows for greater versatility in play style for casters and healers and also makes allowances for dungeon crawling and wandering adventures.
Please don't make casters sit on their asses during combat in order to squeeze out that extra 50 mana points. I want my druid to be able to stand and move around while regening mana. I have nothing against camping, but I detest the idea that you cannot dungeon crawl or meander while hunting because you or your group mates have to sit on their asses to regen mana.
I'm playing Priest in Vanilla WoW right now, Pure healer.
So even Vanilla WoW has a mana problem. It's the cost of large battles. I don't really see a problem.
HOWEVER I have a little trick I use. What ever caster class I play, I use wands to fight, this doesn't use mana and very effective.........People are amazed at how I can heal, fight, and still have mana
Now as far as Pantheon and viewing the two live streams. I am concerned about the downtime may be too long.
While I do have some concern that mana regen will be too much of a hassle like it was in classic EQ before the advent of KEI, my greater concern is that you will be forced to sit in order to regenerate the mana. I want to be able to stand up and move around or even participate in combat while regenerating that mana. This allows for greater versatility in play style for casters and healers and also makes allowances for dungeon crawling and wandering adventures.
They could just do away with in combat mana regen so there is no reason to sit while in combat. Theres also a thread on the official forum discussing simply changing the animation so that while in combat, you don't sit but perhaps use an ability to regenerate while standing.
Just as long as we don't lose the resource management meta game, I'm fine with other solutions. I want abilities to have more weight, promote less spam, and actually cost energy or mana that takes time to regenerate.
I hope Pantheon will not simply be a reincarnation of EQ1 or Vanguard with modern graphics. I think that is one element that would only lead to a failure for this title. The time commitment required by the older games was expected and tolerated by the 1999-2004 era players. That same play-forever-to-get-halfway-to- where-you-want-to-be attitude doesn't seem to be something the modern player base wants.
My reasoning: a very large proportion of the early era players came from a table-top role playing tradition. These people were accustomed to long running campaigns, some running years. Those players have moved on, and there simply isn't a thriving population of D&D players who have never seen a MMORPG before to replace that player base. In-person gaming of every genre has been on the decline, including the PnP root games this industry is based on. Everyone who is interested in MMORPGs has either tried the existing crop and moved on, or they are still in some game or another. There's no new glut of people waiting to replace those who have discovered a great truth -- 'maturity kills free time'.
Isn't it possible that people moved on because there wasn't a game suitable for roleplay that also offered the traditional combat and other mechanics derived from dnd, muds and other older games? I mean really, what would you suggest someone play that was looking for that experience. A lot of people would like to know.
I'm sure you're right that some players have indeed moved on. Yet I still think there is a market for that kind of game. Pantheon will offer something unique, and I think its likely new players will find it fresh, even if it isn't totally "new".
You have to keep this in perspective. They have no intention of seeking mass appeal. This is a game for a specific audience that want an immersive fantasy world with challenging cooperative gameplay. Hundreds of thousands of active players aren't necessary for them to accomplish that goal.
Reasonable counterpoint to my argument.
Let me suggest a couple of things to consider. There were plenty of games suitable, the same ones they left. They left AC, UO, EQ, and later DAoC, and those games offered the exact experience that you are suggesting these people wanted. So, it begins to look like a significant number of people were looking for something other than those experiences, otherwise they wouldn't have become tired and left.
Where we differ is really in the estimation of the market size for this game. I feel a lot of the people who left those 1st generation MMORPGs, left for valid reasons. I don't believe that those who are still interested in MMORPGs have really changed their minds about the reasons they left. Otherwise there would be much healthier populations in EQ1 now, a place where they could have always returned, albeit with changes.
Pantheon's player base has moved on, either finding new games, have left the MMORPG genre behind, or found a home in one of the various emulators. So, without a new population of old-school gamers on the horizon waiting to experience the MMORPG genre, Pantheon will have to attract the bulk of their players from competing game options, just to ensure financial survival. Their target of a niche market, and the changes of personal preferences and available time suggest to me that the biggest casualty of any success that Pantheon may have may come from attracting players from the emulator market.
I don't know that there is a litmus test to judge this market size; I'm certainly not privileged to have that information. You may be right in that this market segment is robust enough to support a game like Pantheon. I may also be shown to be correct when Pantheon closes down servers or struggles along with a population that can't support their financial aspirations. We will have to wait and see.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
People leave anything to try something new - games included - that fact will never change regardless of how good it is. EQ was 5 years old in 2004, its original gameplay experience was transforming into a bastardized version, and there were other options available at that point that did the EQ in 2004 better.
In Hindsight, I think EQ would have retained more players if they stuck to their original formula, even if some left to try something new at first (including some advances like AAs). But, SoE couldn't have known that at the time.
And, its not like EQ is/was unsuccessful. I'll find my quote from Brad on EQ factoids - but its been one of the most profitable game from SoE, and was one of the few that was still profitable in 2014ish at least.
So, I think if Pantheon remains true to the niche, they'll have plenty of chances to be successful.
*Edit - Found the quote:
Posted by Aradune 1/14/15 at 5:34 PM
"Just some EQ factoids: EQ peaked at ~550k subscribers. EQ cost $8M to make, and took three years. EQ is one of the most, if not the most, profitable enterprises Sony has ever created. It has made over $500M for the company. EQ remains to this day a profitable game, with enough subscribers to pay for Expansions and a decent sized dev team."
Part of me wants to see a pure EQ1 clone and part of me wants lots of updated and changes. Like crafting being deep and meaningful. Maybe have a few equipment slots that are just for crafters make best in slot for.
I liked hearing they want to have crafting to have depth but IMO consumables is not enough. Anyone else feel this way?
Please don't make casters sit on their asses during combat in order to squeeze out that extra 50 mana points. I want my druid to be able to stand and move around while regening mana. I have nothing against camping, but I detest the idea that you cannot dungeon crawl or meander while hunting because you or your group mates have to sit on their asses to regen mana.
I'm playing Priest in Vanilla WoW right now, Pure healer.
So even Vanilla WoW has a mana problem. It's the cost of large battles. I don't really see a problem.
HOWEVER I have a little trick I use. What ever caster class I play, I use wands to fight, this doesn't use mana and very effective.........People are amazed at how I can heal, fight, and still have mana
Now as far as Pantheon and viewing the two live streams. I am concerned about the downtime may be too long.
While I do have some concern that mana regen will be too much of a hassle like it was in classic EQ before the advent of KEI, my greater concern is that you will be forced to sit in order to regenerate the mana. I want to be able to stand up and move around or even participate in combat while regenerating that mana. This allows for greater versatility in play style for casters and healers and also makes allowances for dungeon crawling and wandering adventures.
They could just do away with in combat mana regen so there is no reason to sit while in combat. Theres also a thread on the official forum discussing simply changing the animation so that while in combat, you don't sit but perhaps use an ability to regenerate while standing.
Just as long as we don't lose the resource management meta game, I'm fine with other solutions. I want abilities to have more weight, promote less spam, and actually cost energy or mana that takes time to regenerate.
That sounds like you still have to just stand there and do nothing productive in the group than to click the regen button and twiddle your thumbs and does nothing for helping with dungeon crawling or grazing content. I understand that some people like to sit on their asses and camp, but I feel it's better left as a choice than as a forced mechanic.
Please don't make casters sit on their asses during combat in order to squeeze out that extra 50 mana points. I want my druid to be able to stand and move around while regening mana. I have nothing against camping, but I detest the idea that you cannot dungeon crawl or meander while hunting because you or your group mates have to sit on their asses to regen mana.
I'm playing Priest in Vanilla WoW right now, Pure healer.
So even Vanilla WoW has a mana problem. It's the cost of large battles. I don't really see a problem.
HOWEVER I have a little trick I use. What ever caster class I play, I use wands to fight, this doesn't use mana and very effective.........People are amazed at how I can heal, fight, and still have mana
Now as far as Pantheon and viewing the two live streams. I am concerned about the downtime may be too long.
While I do have some concern that mana regen will be too much of a hassle like it was in classic EQ before the advent of KEI, my greater concern is that you will be forced to sit in order to regenerate the mana. I want to be able to stand up and move around or even participate in combat while regenerating that mana. This allows for greater versatility in play style for casters and healers and also makes allowances for dungeon crawling and wandering adventures.
They could just do away with in combat mana regen so there is no reason to sit while in combat. Theres also a thread on the official forum discussing simply changing the animation so that while in combat, you don't sit but perhaps use an ability to regenerate while standing.
Just as long as we don't lose the resource management meta game, I'm fine with other solutions. I want abilities to have more weight, promote less spam, and actually cost energy or mana that takes time to regenerate.
That sounds like you still have to just stand there and do nothing productive in the group than to click the regen button and twiddle your thumbs and does nothing for helping with dungeon crawling or grazing content. I understand that some people like to sit on their asses and camp, but I feel it's better left as a choice than as a forced mechanic.
Not sure what you're really looking for. If you're out of resources, you have to do something to regenerate them. Its part of the meta. Whether its oldschool sitting or using some ability that helps you gather mana, there will be downtime.
It sounds like what you really want is for mana to regenerate faster so you can always be doing things. Thats just not the way combat works when managing your mana is part of the meta.
The fact is, if you are out of mana it means your group needs to take a break. That or you're all about to die...
Let me suggest a couple of things to consider. There were plenty of games suitable, the same ones they left. They left AC, UO, EQ, and later DAoC, and those games offered the exact experience that you are suggesting these people wanted. So, it begins to look like a significant number of people were looking for something other than those experiences, otherwise they wouldn't have become tired and left.
I've seen this argument before and it's a valid point, to a degree. The thing you have to also consider is that those games you mention are no longer "those games". Those games changed radically post WoW, some did it even before WoW.
ToA destroyed DAoC for me and many others. They turned a really great RvR MMO into a kit grind, something that we never really wanted.
Look at EQ. Go grab the EQ client and then compare it to P99. No fast travel, no map, you actually need to train Sense Heading, no saved spell loadouts. So you're right that many players moved on because they wanted something different. It's also true that some left because those games changed into something they didn't like and they now have the problem of not having anything that fits that older style of game, unless you play on emulators.
I think it's interesting that certain MMO's are now being developed with a niche audience in mind. CU is going for the old DAoC crowd and I think Pantheon is looking to fill that gap left by games like EQ - pre PoP and VG.
I think it's interesting that certain MMO's are now being developed with a niche audience in mind. CU is going for the old DAoC crowd and I think Pantheon is looking to fill that gap left by games like EQ - pre PoP and VG.
My concern isn't that Pantheon won't be a good game, it is the developers and backers of Pantheon (and developers in similar, old-school products under development) are putting a lot of trust in this ill-defined niche market. If they are right, there's a vast group of people who will play their game and willing to commit themselves to a multi-year experience. I fully expect the opening months of Pantheon will be packed. But the real test for a game designed to provide entertainment for 3+ years won't be the opening bang, it will be the 2nd and 3rd years.
More than one company is counting on capturing this market. To me, that's a problem. It's as if the entire industry went off the rails, and these companies seem to think the best way forward is to start over pretending it's 1999 again. By it's very nature, a niche market has limited players. I believe that this market won't be large enough to support 1 game, much less the 3-4 that seem to be betting on the validity of that group. Nostalgia hasn't proven to be a top-tier business strategy in other industries. If it were, there would be lots of companies competing to make buggy whips and flapper dresses.
Is it interesting that several companies are currently developing products for this niche audience? Absolutely. But to me, it's more the 'seconds before the big train wreck' kind of fascination rather than any kind of market validation.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
By it's very nature, a niche market has limited players. I believe that this market won't be large enough to support 1 game, much less the 3-4 that seem to be betting on the validity of that group.
Wait, are there 3-4 other games doing what Pantheon is doing? I wasn't aware there were any at all. Could you list them please? Playing project gorgon atm but Im very close to completely running out of content, and its basically a 1 man dev team so I dont expect them to keep bringing it.
By it's very nature, a niche market has limited players. I believe that this market won't be large enough to support 1 game, much less the 3-4 that seem to be betting on the validity of that group.
Wait, are there 3-4 other games doing what Pantheon is doing? I wasn't aware there were any at all. Could you list them please? Playing project gorgon atm but Im very close to completely running out of content, and its basically a 1 man dev team so I dont expect them to keep bringing it.
Pantheon. CoE. Crowfall. Project Gorgon. There are probably more in development that I'm not immediately aware of. Each of these games appear to be counting on this niche market of old-school players wanting to relive the 1999-2004 era in games. I doubt the size of this group of people being able to support multiple games of this type. I'm not sure anyone, even the developers and investors in any of these games can put a 'reasonable' number on the size in this market. There's just too many diners trying to share a single, puny burger.
Will these four games come out? I don't doubt it. Will they have an influx of curious players when they launch? Absolutely, curiosity is a powerful marketing lure. My issue is how many people will be playing those games 6+ months post-launch. Will there still be a thriving population or will the population have dropped to a scarce handful of players? I think there will be far fewer people than most.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Please don't make casters sit on their asses during combat in order to squeeze out that extra 50 mana points. I want my druid to be able to stand and move around while regening mana. I have nothing against camping, but I detest the idea that you cannot dungeon crawl or meander while hunting because you or your group mates have to sit on their asses to regen mana.
I'm playing Priest in Vanilla WoW right now, Pure healer.
So even Vanilla WoW has a mana problem. It's the cost of large battles. I don't really see a problem.
HOWEVER I have a little trick I use. What ever caster class I play, I use wands to fight, this doesn't use mana and very effective.........People are amazed at how I can heal, fight, and still have mana
Now as far as Pantheon and viewing the two live streams. I am concerned about the downtime may be too long.
While I do have some concern that mana regen will be too much of a hassle like it was in classic EQ before the advent of KEI, my greater concern is that you will be forced to sit in order to regenerate the mana. I want to be able to stand up and move around or even participate in combat while regenerating that mana. This allows for greater versatility in play style for casters and healers and also makes allowances for dungeon crawling and wandering adventures.
They could just do away with in combat mana regen so there is no reason to sit while in combat. Theres also a thread on the official forum discussing simply changing the animation so that while in combat, you don't sit but perhaps use an ability to regenerate while standing.
Just as long as we don't lose the resource management meta game, I'm fine with other solutions. I want abilities to have more weight, promote less spam, and actually cost energy or mana that takes time to regenerate.
That sounds like you still have to just stand there and do nothing productive in the group than to click the regen button and twiddle your thumbs and does nothing for helping with dungeon crawling or grazing content. I understand that some people like to sit on their asses and camp, but I feel it's better left as a choice than as a forced mechanic.
I think this is the mindset that begets todays games. For the most part resources these days are pretty close to infinite and thats because people want to be doing something to help with the dungeon at all times. While I do understand that sentiment, I believe timing when burn through your mana vs when to step back from combat to use an ability to generate or an ability that uses less mana is part of the challenge that makes games fun.
There's something to be said for realizing how long an instance of combat will take and using less burst more efficient damaging spells vs high burst high cost spells.
Suggesting that people who want the added tatical challenge of resource management just like to sit on their asses is pretty ridiculous.
I think swtor had a great system in place to keep the combat going without killing resource management (not that their resource management was interesting.) They had a channel ability on every class that healed you to full quickly but it could only be used out of combat. It kept people in combat more, and removed the waiting, while not actually affecting combats resources.
By it's very nature, a niche market has limited players. I believe that this market won't be large enough to support 1 game, much less the 3-4 that seem to be betting on the validity of that group.
Wait, are there 3-4 other games doing what Pantheon is doing? I wasn't aware there were any at all. Could you list them please? Playing project gorgon atm but Im very close to completely running out of content, and its basically a 1 man dev team so I dont expect them to keep bringing it.
Pantheon. CoE. Crowfall. Project Gorgon. There are probably more in development that I'm not immediately aware of. Each of these games appear to be counting on this niche market of old-school players wanting to relive the 1999-2004 era in games.
Those aren't the same niche. Those are different niches that comprise just about the entire spectrum of mmorpgs. I actually believe the genre as a whole stands to gain a lot more players as games are created for specific audiences. The problem with mass appeal is that while they are busy catering to everyone, they've ended up catering to no one in particular. Thats turned a lot of people away from mmorpgs.
The only indie game that even remotely overlaps with Pantheon's target audience would be Saga of Lucimia, but its still considerably different in its approach to combat, classes and the greater focus on survival.
People leave anything to try something new - games included - that fact will never change regardless of how good it is. EQ was 5 years old in 2004, its original gameplay experience was transforming into a bastardized version, and there were other options available at that point that did the EQ in 2004 better.
In Hindsight, I think EQ would have retained more players if they stuck to their original formula, even if some left to try something new at first (including some advances like AAs). But, SoE couldn't have known that at the time.
And, its not like EQ is/was unsuccessful. I'll find my quote from Brad on EQ factoids - but its been one of the most profitable game from SoE, and was one of the few that was still profitable in 2014ish at least.
So, I think if Pantheon remains true to the niche, they'll have plenty of chances to be successful.
*Edit - Found the quote:
Posted by Aradune 1/14/15 at 5:34 PM
"Just some EQ factoids: EQ peaked at ~550k subscribers. EQ cost $8M to make, and took three years. EQ is one of the most, if not the most, profitable enterprises Sony has ever created. It has made over $500M for the company. EQ remains to this day a profitable game, with enough subscribers to pay for Expansions and a decent sized dev team."
One point of note though, profitability is as much an issue of how much a project costs to maintain as it is an issue of population health. Profitability in the case of such an old game doesn't exactly mean much if the product has a small team, as well as all production costs have been paid back. Which I'm sure they have been.
The same would apply to Pantheon in the end, if they can maintain the service on a low population that's all that really matters.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Please don't make casters sit on their asses during combat in order to squeeze out that extra 50 mana points. I want my druid to be able to stand and move around while regening mana. I have nothing against camping, but I detest the idea that you cannot dungeon crawl or meander while hunting because you or your group mates have to sit on their asses to regen mana.
I'm playing Priest in Vanilla WoW right now, Pure healer.
So even Vanilla WoW has a mana problem. It's the cost of large battles. I don't really see a problem.
HOWEVER I have a little trick I use. What ever caster class I play, I use wands to fight, this doesn't use mana and very effective.........People are amazed at how I can heal, fight, and still have mana
Now as far as Pantheon and viewing the two live streams. I am concerned about the downtime may be too long.
While I do have some concern that mana regen will be too much of a hassle like it was in classic EQ before the advent of KEI, my greater concern is that you will be forced to sit in order to regenerate the mana. I want to be able to stand up and move around or even participate in combat while regenerating that mana. This allows for greater versatility in play style for casters and healers and also makes allowances for dungeon crawling and wandering adventures.
They could just do away with in combat mana regen so there is no reason to sit while in combat. Theres also a thread on the official forum discussing simply changing the animation so that while in combat, you don't sit but perhaps use an ability to regenerate while standing.
Just as long as we don't lose the resource management meta game, I'm fine with other solutions. I want abilities to have more weight, promote less spam, and actually cost energy or mana that takes time to regenerate.
That sounds like you still have to just stand there and do nothing productive in the group than to click the regen button and twiddle your thumbs and does nothing for helping with dungeon crawling or grazing content. I understand that some people like to sit on their asses and camp, but I feel it's better left as a choice than as a forced mechanic.
Not sure what you're really looking for. If you're out of resources, you have to do something to regenerate them. Its part of the meta. Whether its oldschool sitting or using some ability that helps you gather mana, there will be downtime.
It sounds like what you really want is for mana to regenerate faster so you can always be doing things. Thats just not the way combat works when managing your mana is part of the meta.
The fact is, if you are out of mana it means your group needs to take a break. That or you're all about to die...
No, that isn't what I said at all. I'm talking about the mechanic for regenerating mana, not how fast it should happen. You shouldn't be forced to sit down during combat to regen mana, it should do so naturally no matter what you're doing. Doesn't mean it has to regen faster than needed, only that players not be required to sit during the actual combat. The same applies after combat. Allow it to regen normally without having to sit down so people can dungeon crawl or graze content if they want or just stay put and camp a spot. It doesn't remove resource management, it merely allows you to stand and move around instead of sitting.
It's easy enough to implement, you set a regen rate for combat and out of combat and it stays the same no matter what you're doing, allowing for more versatility in the way players do the content without removing the need to conserve mana, endurance....etc.
You then use abilities like Kodiak's Endless Intellect to modify regen rates, giving buffers a purpose and reducing regen restrictions as a reward for becoming more powerful.
This allows casters and healers to maneuver or even help melee while they regen for the next heal or nuke or while moving to the next area in a dungeon or overland location.
Ok, so its just a matter of being able to move around.
If immersion is the goal, I think realistic mechanics like sitting to rest are important. Just a matter of preference, but I've always found it strange to watch my character recover from battle while sprinting around. I think they are going for that kind of thing in Pantheon.
If it were up to me, I'd take survival and the realism aspect even further. I'd have camp fires that provide a buff, a light source along with other activities during downtime like playing music, cooking, sharpening weapons and anything else to increase interaction and interdependence between players. I'd also make food and drink more important and going without be very detrimental. Thats just me though. I want something more than another fantasy video game.
Comments
I loved EQ1 back in the day, but it did have somethings I hated about it.
I put up with those bad things as there was no better choice; however, there are many choices these days. The mmo market is rather flooded.
As I have gotten older the list of things I hated in EQ1 has dwindled to, but one item now. I hate my gear being on my corpse. Naked corpse runs were no fun at all for me. I hated losing xp, and un-leveling being a possiblity, but those don't bother me now like they did. My gear on my corpse though is still unacceptable.
I will try it due to nostalgia, but that will not guarantee my staying in this title.
And so help me, if 'The Vision' gets mentioned at all.....
Flooded with crap mmo's you mean. Pantheon doesnt need BDO style character creation or bunny hop jump flip roll dodging to make it. It doesnt need to be more like the dozens of other mmos flooding the market that we arent playing.
While I do have some concern that mana regen will be too much of a hassle like it was in classic EQ before the advent of KEI, my greater concern is that you will be forced to sit in order to regenerate the mana. I want to be able to stand up and move around or even participate in combat while regenerating that mana. This allows for greater versatility in play style for casters and healers and also makes allowances for dungeon crawling and wandering adventures.
Just as long as we don't lose the resource management meta game, I'm fine with other solutions. I want abilities to have more weight, promote less spam, and actually cost energy or mana that takes time to regenerate.
Let me suggest a couple of things to consider. There were plenty of games suitable, the same ones they left. They left AC, UO, EQ, and later DAoC, and those games offered the exact experience that you are suggesting these people wanted. So, it begins to look like a significant number of people were looking for something other than those experiences, otherwise they wouldn't have become tired and left.
Where we differ is really in the estimation of the market size for this game. I feel a lot of the people who left those 1st generation MMORPGs, left for valid reasons. I don't believe that those who are still interested in MMORPGs have really changed their minds about the reasons they left. Otherwise there would be much healthier populations in EQ1 now, a place where they could have always returned, albeit with changes.
Pantheon's player base has moved on, either finding new games, have left the MMORPG genre behind, or found a home in one of the various emulators. So, without a new population of old-school gamers on the horizon waiting to experience the MMORPG genre, Pantheon will have to attract the bulk of their players from competing game options, just to ensure financial survival. Their target of a niche market, and the changes of personal preferences and available time suggest to me that the biggest casualty of any success that Pantheon may have may come from attracting players from the emulator market.
I don't know that there is a litmus test to judge this market size; I'm certainly not privileged to have that information. You may be right in that this market segment is robust enough to support a game like Pantheon. I may also be shown to be correct when Pantheon closes down servers or struggles along with a population that can't support their financial aspirations. We will have to wait and see.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
@Mendel
People leave anything to try something new - games included - that fact will never change regardless of how good it is. EQ was 5 years old in 2004, its original gameplay experience was transforming into a bastardized version, and there were other options available at that point that did the EQ in 2004 better.
In Hindsight, I think EQ would have retained more players if they stuck to their original formula, even if some left to try something new at first (including some advances like AAs). But, SoE couldn't have known that at the time.
And, its not like EQ is/was unsuccessful. I'll find my quote from Brad on EQ factoids - but its been one of the most profitable game from SoE, and was one of the few that was still profitable in 2014ish at least.
So, I think if Pantheon remains true to the niche, they'll have plenty of chances to be successful.
*Edit - Found the quote:
Posted by Aradune 1/14/15 at 5:34 PM
"Just some EQ factoids: EQ peaked at ~550k subscribers. EQ cost $8M to make, and took three years. EQ is one of the most, if not the most, profitable enterprises Sony has ever created. It has made over $500M for the company. EQ remains to this day a profitable game, with enough subscribers to pay for Expansions and a decent sized dev team."
I liked hearing they want to have crafting to have depth but IMO consumables is not enough. Anyone else feel this way?
That sounds like you still have to just stand there and do nothing productive in the group than to click the regen button and twiddle your thumbs and does nothing for helping with dungeon crawling or grazing content. I understand that some people like to sit on their asses and camp, but I feel it's better left as a choice than as a forced mechanic.
It sounds like what you really want is for mana to regenerate faster so you can always be doing things. Thats just not the way combat works when managing your mana is part of the meta.
The fact is, if you are out of mana it means your group needs to take a break. That or you're all about to die...
ToA destroyed DAoC for me and many others. They turned a really great RvR MMO into a kit grind, something that we never really wanted.
Look at EQ. Go grab the EQ client and then compare it to P99. No fast travel, no map, you actually need to train Sense Heading, no saved spell loadouts. So you're right that many players moved on because they wanted something different. It's also true that some left because those games changed into something they didn't like and they now have the problem of not having anything that fits that older style of game, unless you play on emulators.
I think it's interesting that certain MMO's are now being developed with a niche audience in mind. CU is going for the old DAoC crowd and I think Pantheon is looking to fill that gap left by games like EQ - pre PoP and VG.
More than one company is counting on capturing this market. To me, that's a problem. It's as if the entire industry went off the rails, and these companies seem to think the best way forward is to start over pretending it's 1999 again. By it's very nature, a niche market has limited players. I believe that this market won't be large enough to support 1 game, much less the 3-4 that seem to be betting on the validity of that group. Nostalgia hasn't proven to be a top-tier business strategy in other industries. If it were, there would be lots of companies competing to make buggy whips and flapper dresses.
Is it interesting that several companies are currently developing products for this niche audience? Absolutely. But to me, it's more the 'seconds before the big train wreck' kind of fascination rather than any kind of market validation.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Wait, are there 3-4 other games doing what Pantheon is doing? I wasn't aware there were any at all. Could you list them please? Playing project gorgon atm but Im very close to completely running out of content, and its basically a 1 man dev team so I dont expect them to keep bringing it.
Will these four games come out? I don't doubt it. Will they have an influx of curious players when they launch? Absolutely, curiosity is a powerful marketing lure. My issue is how many people will be playing those games 6+ months post-launch. Will there still be a thriving population or will the population have dropped to a scarce handful of players? I think there will be far fewer people than most.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
There's something to be said for realizing how long an instance of combat will take and using less burst more efficient damaging spells vs high burst high cost spells.
Suggesting that people who want the added tatical challenge of resource management just like to sit on their asses is pretty ridiculous.
I think swtor had a great system in place to keep the combat going without killing resource management (not that their resource management was interesting.) They had a channel ability on every class that healed you to full quickly but it could only be used out of combat. It kept people in combat more, and removed the waiting, while not actually affecting combats resources.
The only indie game that even remotely overlaps with Pantheon's target audience would be Saga of Lucimia, but its still considerably different in its approach to combat, classes and the greater focus on survival.
The same would apply to Pantheon in the end, if they can maintain the service on a low population that's all that really matters.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
No, that isn't what I said at all. I'm talking about the mechanic for regenerating mana, not how fast it should happen. You shouldn't be forced to sit down during combat to regen mana, it should do so naturally no matter what you're doing. Doesn't mean it has to regen faster than needed, only that players not be required to sit during the actual combat. The same applies after combat. Allow it to regen normally without having to sit down so people can dungeon crawl or graze content if they want or just stay put and camp a spot. It doesn't remove resource management, it merely allows you to stand and move around instead of sitting.
It's easy enough to implement, you set a regen rate for combat and out of combat and it stays the same no matter what you're doing, allowing for more versatility in the way players do the content without removing the need to conserve mana, endurance....etc.
You then use abilities like Kodiak's Endless Intellect to modify regen rates, giving buffers a purpose and reducing regen restrictions as a reward for becoming more powerful.
This allows casters and healers to maneuver or even help melee while they regen for the next heal or nuke or while moving to the next area in a dungeon or overland location.
If immersion is the goal, I think realistic mechanics like sitting to rest are important. Just a matter of preference, but I've always found it strange to watch my character recover from battle while sprinting around. I think they are going for that kind of thing in Pantheon.
If it were up to me, I'd take survival and the realism aspect even further. I'd have camp fires that provide a buff, a light source along with other activities during downtime like playing music, cooking, sharpening weapons and anything else to increase interaction and interdependence between players. I'd also make food and drink more important and going without be very detrimental. Thats just me though. I want something more than another fantasy video game.