Beside the obvious fantasy that there will be AI traders,
Not a fantasy, if there is something that haven't changed on the design of this game since the very early days, is that the big majority of the game world is AI, as said before and repeated recently: 90% AI, 10% Players... Means it can be player impacted but certainly AI Driven.
But what does it mean to you? explain it in practical terms inside the game and how it will effect your enjoyment?
I don't like games where cash can so easily decide the outcome of encounters. It directly affects my enjoyment if someone can ship 100,000 units while I can only ship 10 units. Day one, some random can potentially make 10,000 times more than me because he was willing to blow a bunch of cash. That, in my opinion at least, is an awful version of gaming. And I'm fine with you disagreeing.
Well I am free to disagree because your example is only one of principle and not practical.
In your example here (even though not well thought out, no one will even be able to fill those ships on day one.) all you have said is that you don't like the fact that someone will be able to make more money than you....and I presume this means even if you are unable to tell if they bought that advantage or not. So it is really just principal.
You don't like games where they have a cash shop where others can buy an advantage, regardless of how small or large or if it has any real impact on your own enjoyment. Even if this is the best game in the world ever. in your own words, 'you won't like it'.
I am fine with that.
Post edited by Oriphus on
"Trump is a blunt force, all-American, laser-guided middle finger to everything and everyone in Washington, D.C." - Wayne Allyn Root
You are completely correct. The people that put in more money will have an advantage.
So will people who put more time. This is what we see on MMO's, people with either too much time or too much money, the impact on the game world will be the same from both groups.
But unlike people here, for me SC is not a race to get your stuff as fastest as possible.
No, the impact will not be the same. One person will get 100,000 cargo units and the other will get 10.
Aurora-guy will get 10 on day 1. (Warning ... personal assumption, based on past experience from other sci fi games)
100 on day 7.
1000 after 2 weeks
10000 after a month
100000 after 6 weeks
and as everyone can only fly one ship, after 6 weeks Aurora guy and Hull-E are on a level playing field.
In 5 months .... no one cares what starter ship Aurora guy and Hull-E guy had at the launch of the game. He who can put in 10 hours a day dominates over anyone putting in 1-2 hours a day.
In 2 years .... Aurora guy and Hull-E guy are not flying their ships anymore, as they prefer to be marines boarding Vanduul vessels and killing them in close combat, rescuing the Prisoner of War Admiral Bishop from Behind Enemy Lines in a FPS co-op scenario (replaying the SQ42 solo campaign mission in co-op). Both Aurora guy and Hull-E guy have more in game cash then they can every spend in the next 10 years and each has 50 ships in the hangar back home, one of each available model.
Have fun
You don't know that any of these time frames are factual. You literally invented them. And you even admit it. I do know if some guy start with 100,000 cargo and I start with 10 that there is a serious problem with them paying to have a serious advantage in game.
Beside the obvious fantasy that there will be AI traders,
Not a fantasy, if there is something that haven't changed on the design of this game since the very early days, is that the big majority of the game world is AI, as said before and repeated recently: 90% AI, 10% Players... Means it can be player impacted but certainly AI Driven.
You are completely correct. The people that put in more money will have an advantage.
So will people who put more time. This is what we see on MMO's, people with either too much time or too much money, the impact on the game world will be the same from both groups.
But unlike people here, for me SC is not a race to get your stuff as fastest as possible.
No, the impact will not be the same. One person will get 100,000 cargo units and the other will get 10.
Or 4 dudes in little ships will gank that mofo and sell the loot for themselves along with the ship. muhahaha
Or 4 dudes in better ships that were bought with cash will defend them and win anyway.
Or any of those 4 are Goons, pretending to be guards ... and ganking Hull-E guy who hired them, capturing his ship, flying to a pirate haven and using it as a cargo transport to capture all the phat loot gained from suicide ganking solo pilots with bigger ships.
But what does it mean to you? explain it in practical terms inside the game and how it will effect your enjoyment?
I don't like games where cash can so easily decide the outcome of encounters. It directly affects my enjoyment if someone can ship 100,000 units while I can only ship 10 units. Day one, some random can potentially make 10,000 times more than me because he was willing to blow a bunch of cash. That, in my opinion at least, is an awful version of gaming. And I'm fine with you disagreeing.
Well I am free to disagree because your example is only one of principal and not practical.
In your example here (even though not well thought out, no one will even be able to fill those ships on day one.) all you have said is that you don't like the fact that someone will be able to make more money than you....and I presume this means even if you are unable to tell if they bought that advantage or not. So it is really just principal.
You don't like games where they have a cash shop where others can buy an advantage, regardless of how small or large or if it has any real impact on your own enjoyment. Even if this is the best game in the world ever. in your own words, 'you won't like it'.
I am fine with that.
Cute.
Once again, I don't like games that depend on whether one person makes more money than the other. Yes, that is true. And this game uses real life money to decide who wins.
Of course the situation could happen anyway. But when someone has just blown a few thousand on ships, it makes it much more obnoxious. If they had earned their overwhelming odds, fine, but never knowing if the other guy just spent real life money on it is... well, it's horrible. What, some random baddies that have more money win? That is a terrible way to play a game in my opinion.
This is going to happen one way or the other. Even organizations of players will get together time-sinkers to get control and power on the gameworld we will play on, at the end the impact will happen independent of the factors behind.
The way this can be balanced is by making sure the layout of the universe is balanced, with the monitored and un-monitored space... Or simply by joining organizations of players, and instead of you solo with your cargo ship, you join a group of players that do cargo runs, with escorts and etc...
It's part of the game designs since forever, and it's still what they are going for. Certainly unless you are a CIG employee you can clarify that is not the design, until then i will take what they've been describing on the past years as what they are going for.
Of course the situation could happen anyway. But when someone has just blown a few thousand on ships, it makes it much more obnoxious. If they had earned their overwhelming odds, fine, but never knowing if the other guy just spent real life money on it is... well, it's horrible. What, some random baddies that have more money win? That is a terrible way to play a game in my opinion.
This is going to happen one way or the other. Even organizations of players will get together time-sinkers to get control and power on the gameworld we will play on, at the end the impact will happen independent of the factors behind.
The way this can be balanced is by making sure the layout of the universe is balanced, with the monitored and un-monitored space... Or simply by joining organizations of players, and instead of you solo with your cargo ship, you join a group of players that do cargo runs, with escorts and etc...
Once again, your ridiculous version of balance makes no sense. The people that blew money still win. They can even lose in an extremely bad way... and then just buy 10 more ships that are stronger, better. They may already have 100 ships in stock.
When your team of "escorts" lose to the people blowing an incredible amount of money, it feels terrible.
Once again, I don't like games that depend on whether one person makes more money than the other. Yes, that is true. And this game uses real life money to decide who wins.
Real money does not make me a better pilot.
SC is a skill based game. If someone outmaneuvers me, stays in my six, disables my rear turret(s) because i cannot hit him, kills my shield generators aft, then proceeds to decimate my shield with gusto ... real world money wont save my ass.
It's part of the game designs since forever, and it's still what they are going for. Certainly unless you are a CIG employee you can clarify that is not the design, until then i will take what they've been describing on the past years as what they are going for.
Laughable. You obviously don't know what they are going for. They don't know what they're going for. It changes monthly. Your assertion that AI is going to be 90% of the trading is invented by you. You know it too. Otherwise, link it.
Once again, I don't like games that depend on whether one person makes more money than the other. Yes, that is true. And this game uses real life money to decide who wins.
Real money does not make me a better pilot.
SC is a skill based game. If someone outmaneuvers me, stays in my six, disables my rear turret(s) because i cannot hit him, kills my shield generators aft, then proceeds to decimate my shield with gusto ... real world money wont save my ass.
Have fun
Real money does not make a better pilot, it makes it easier to kill people that are better pilots.
Once again, your ridiculous version of balance makes no sense. The people that blew money still win. They can even lose in an extremely bad way... and then just buy 10 more ships that are stronger, better. They may already have 100 ships in stock.
When your team of "escorts" lose to the people blowing an incredible amount of money, it feels terrible.
WHAT WIN?! Do something faster than another player?
You completely ignore the cooperative side of the game, on witch you can join and work for the orgs of players that indeed spent big amounts of money on the game and take advantage of it. With them not against them!
Laughable. You obviously don't know what they are going for. They don't know what they're going for. It changes monthly. Your assertion that AI is going to be 90% of the trading is invented by you. You know it too. Otherwise, link it.
That's like... your opinion man. Don't come towards me making statements like that "THIS ARE FACTZ BECAUSE I SAID SO!".
Ridiculous. But anyway I'll look for your quote...
Laughable. You obviously don't know what they are going for. They don't know what they're going for. It changes monthly. Your assertion that AI is going to be 90% of the trading is invented by you. You know it too. Otherwise, link it.
That's like... your opinion man. Don't come towards me making statements like that "THIS ARE FACTZ BECAUSE I SAID SO!".
Ridiculous. I'll look for your quote...
You claimed the following has been game design forever. And this is concerning trade.
"Not a fantasy, if there is something that haven't changed on the design of this game since the very early days, is that the big majority of the game world is AI, as said before and repeated recently: 90% AI, 10% Players... Means it can be player impacted but certainly AI Driven."
You show me where they said trade was 90% AI driven, and I will back off of your assertion and admit I was wrong.
It's part of the game designs since forever, and it's still what they are going for. Certainly unless you are a CIG employee you can clarify that is not the design, until then i will take what they've been describing on the past years as what they are going for.
Laughable. You obviously don't know what they are going for. They don't know what they're going for. It changes monthly. Your assertion that AI is going to be 90% of the trading is invented by you. You know it too. Otherwise, link it.
It's part of the game designs since forever, and it's still what they are going for. Certainly unless you are a CIG employee you can clarify that is not the design, until then i will take what they've been describing on the past years as what they are going for.
Laughable. You obviously don't know what they are going for. They don't know what they're going for. It changes monthly. Your assertion that AI is going to be 90% of the trading is invented by you. You know it too. Otherwise, link it.
BeansnBread said: And this game uses real life money to decide who wins.
Perhaps sometimes it will, other times it won't. I know I won't have a clue either way when it happens. As long as I can reasonably earn those same 'advantages' in game then I will be OK with the system.
Just for the record, I wish this wasn't the system they where using, but it is and I can live with it.
"Trump is a blunt force, all-American, laser-guided middle finger to everything and everyone in Washington, D.C." - Wayne Allyn Root
If SC had no sales of significance then everything that is earned is done so in-game and on an even keel, your skill, your acumen and obviously your time are what advances you. Not your credit card. I happen to think that's quite important.
The point of matter is that if there was no such thing as sales or currency micro-transaction, this GAP between players would STILL EXIST. Simply caused by different reasons.
The hardcore vs casual playerbases, of casual players unable to play as much as the hardcore dedicated ones causing this gaps, is what led to MMO's allowing things like buying currency side of earning it on the first place.
Yes dude I know. Why are you even telling me this when it's just a reworded version of what I've just written...
I stated my reasons for why I dislike CIG selling ships, I stated my reasons for why I think it's a bad idea and I stated how I believe any advantage gained should be done by skill, acumen and time played, of course it's still going to happen but it would only then happen in game not because of the size of people's wallets out of game.
You claimed the following has been game design forever. And this is concerning trade.
"Not a fantasy, if there is something that haven't changed on the design of this game since the very early days, is that the big majority of the game world is AI, as said before and repeated recently: 90% AI, 10% Players... Means it can be player impacted but certainly AI Driven."
You show me where they said trade was 90% AI driven, and I will back off of your assertion and admit I was wrong.
The game world i said, that the AI that fills the game world. AI that is fundamental for the economy, this includes the AI traders, on witch you can find a lot here http://www.scqa.info/?keywords=trade (search AI on results)
I think on the links there's FAR enough information about the Trade + AI,and how missions and all that are directly involved on the game's economy loop.
The AI will control trading in terms of economy, the players can only impact it, the economy is not unlike some other MMO's dependent on player demand vs supply.
You are completely correct. The people that put in more money will have an advantage.
So will people who put more time. This is what we see on MMO's, people with either too much time or too much money, the impact on the game world will be the same from both groups.
But unlike people here, for me SC is not a race to get your stuff as fastest as possible.
No, the impact will not be the same. One person will get 100,000 cargo units and the other will get 10.
Aurora-guy will get 10 on day 1. (Warning ... personal assumption, based on past experience from other sci fi games)
100 on day 7.
1000 after 2 weeks
10000 after a month
100000 after 6 weeks
and as everyone can only fly one ship, after 6 weeks Aurora guy and Hull-E are on a level playing field.
In 5 months .... no one cares what starter ship Aurora guy and Hull-E guy had at the launch of the game. He who can put in 10 hours a day dominates over anyone putting in 1-2 hours a day.
In 2 years .... Aurora guy and Hull-E guy are not flying their ships anymore, as they prefer to be marines boarding Vanduul vessels and killing them in close combat, rescuing the Prisoner of War Admiral Bishop from Behind Enemy Lines in a FPS co-op scenario (replaying the SQ42 solo campaign mission in co-op). Both Aurora guy and Hull-E guy have more in game cash then they can every spend in the next 10 years and each has 50 ships in the hangar back home, one of each available model.
Have fun
Heres a better scenario.
Aurora guy will get 10 on day 1
Hull-E guy having multiple accounts can buy currency and use it to stock his ship. He also pulls a friend or 2 with multiple accounts to do the same then flies to place Aurora guy sold his cargo and unloads 100,000 of said cargo tanking the market.
Aurora guy on day 7 is maybe on 100 after finding a few different goods that can make a profit but so does Hull-E who similarly tanks the market with his massive sell.
2 weeks in aurora guy is pissed they cant do trading because of Hull-E guy and Hull-E guy is sitting on a fortune.
A month of hard grinding(maybe) gets the aurora another ship to try a different aspect of the game only to find a different whale spent money to get an initial advantage and they are shit out of luck.
However, the 90% AI trading comment is just stupid and untrue. How do I read the links and agree with that ridiculous statement? Show me.
That statement was made by you, i mentioned the 90% of the game world AI driven. This includes Trading, specifics on trading are not revealed but your comment was as I quote:
Beside the obvious fantasy that there will be AI traders,
What is untrue and clearly part of the design of such "90% AI" game-world. And there is information on AI Traders through years, that is set in a way you're not even meant to know that trader ship is a player. (per design)
Comments
In your example here (even though not well thought out, no one will even be able to fill those ships on day one.) all you have said is that you don't like the fact that someone will be able to make more money than you....and I presume this means even if you are unable to tell if they bought that advantage or not. So it is really just principal.
You don't like games where they have a cash shop where others can buy an advantage, regardless of how small or large or if it has any real impact on your own enjoyment. Even if this is the best game in the world ever. in your own words, 'you won't like it'.
I am fine with that.
"Trump is a blunt force, all-American, laser-guided middle finger to everything and everyone in Washington, D.C." - Wayne Allyn Root
Have fun
Once again, I don't like games that depend on whether one person makes more money than the other. Yes, that is true. And this game uses real life money to decide who wins.
The way this can be balanced is by making sure the layout of the universe is balanced, with the monitored and un-monitored space... Or simply by joining organizations of players, and instead of you solo with your cargo ship, you join a group of players that do cargo runs, with escorts and etc...
It's part of the game designs since forever, and it's still what they are going for. Certainly unless you are a CIG employee you can clarify that is not the design, until then i will take what they've been describing on the past years as what they are going for.
When your team of "escorts" lose to the people blowing an incredible amount of money, it feels terrible.
SC is a skill based game. If someone outmaneuvers me, stays in my six, disables my rear turret(s) because i cannot hit him, kills my shield generators aft, then proceeds to decimate my shield with gusto ... real world money wont save my ass.
Have fun
You completely ignore the cooperative side of the game, on witch you can join and work for the orgs of players that indeed spent big amounts of money on the game and take advantage of it. With them not against them!
Ridiculous. But anyway I'll look for your quote...
"Not a fantasy, if there is something that haven't changed on the design of this game since the very early days, is that the big majority of the game world is AI, as said before and repeated recently: 90% AI, 10% Players... Means it can be player impacted but certainly AI Driven."
You show me where they said trade was 90% AI driven, and I will back off of your assertion and admit I was wrong.
http://imperialnews.network/2015/02/10-chairman-episode-53/
Chris Roberts, Question 8:
"...To be clear with everyone, we’re looking at setting up the universe with about 90% AI and 10% players,..."
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/14505-10-For-The-Chairman
and as you seem to be not familiar with the SC economy in general (more relevant links than you can shake a stick at..)
https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/24718/star-citizen-economy-and-employment
Have fun
Just for the record, I wish this wasn't the system they where using, but it is and I can live with it.
"Trump is a blunt force, all-American, laser-guided middle finger to everything and everyone in Washington, D.C." - Wayne Allyn Root
Yes dude I know. Why are you even telling me this when it's just a reworded version of what I've just written...
I stated my reasons for why I dislike CIG selling ships, I stated my reasons for why I think it's a bad idea and I stated how I believe any advantage gained should be done by skill, acumen and time played, of course it's still going to happen but it would only then happen in game not because of the size of people's wallets out of game.
it explains how the system works, including AI trading. Players cannot game the system, because at some point AI traders start to reduce the margins.
Have fun
The quotes on the 90% AI game world though the years...
2014 2015 And another one And another one
I think on the links there's FAR enough information about the Trade + AI,and how missions and all that are directly involved on the game's economy loop.
The AI will control trading in terms of economy, the players can only impact it, the economy is not unlike some other MMO's dependent on player demand vs supply.
"Trump is a blunt force, all-American, laser-guided middle finger to everything and everyone in Washington, D.C." - Wayne Allyn Root
Aurora guy will get 10 on day 1
Hull-E guy having multiple accounts can buy currency and use it to stock his ship. He also pulls a friend or 2 with multiple accounts to do the same then flies to place Aurora guy sold his cargo and unloads 100,000 of said cargo tanking the market.
Aurora guy on day 7 is maybe on 100 after finding a few different goods that can make a profit but so does Hull-E who similarly tanks the market with his massive sell.
2 weeks in aurora guy is pissed they cant do trading because of Hull-E guy and Hull-E guy is sitting on a fortune.
A month of hard grinding(maybe) gets the aurora another ship to try a different aspect of the game only to find a different whale spent money to get an initial advantage and they are shit out of luck.
They shit post on the CIG forum and quit
What is untrue and clearly part of the design of such "90% AI" game-world. And there is information on AI Traders through years, that is set in a way you're not even meant to know that trader ship is a player. (per design)