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Five Things MMO Gamers Should Stop Complaining About - The List at MMORPG.com

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  • MitaraMitara Member UncommonPosts: 755
    Never have I seen so many people disliking what the author of this article have to say... I think this is a record?

    Besides, I just want to complain, when games dont live up to a minimum of quality.
  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183
    edited August 2016
    Iselin said:
    Good article @BillMurphy. Spot on.

    Children whine. Adults do not whine. If someone is an adult and whining, then they are mentally immature and should be treated as a child. A time-out sounds like a good course of action. May I suggest limited posting for whiners and an overlay like the jail bars, except make it a bonnet, diaper and baby bottle.
    Were you just whining about whiners? But I thought... never mind.
    There was no complaint or whining there, looked more like an observation to me... -2 for canned response.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • RukushinRukushin Member UncommonPosts: 311
    I will simply state that I do NOT agree with a lot in this article. We need to complain or nothing will be done to push the genre forward. How you complain is what the article really should have pointed out.

    As an analogy, right now I agree we as a group of people into MMORPGs tend to complain in the same way the black panthers tried to combat racism. Blow for blow and by force. We need to take the MLK approach and really construct our complaints so we seem more intelligent as a community. Really plan the way we want to deliver the said complaint by emailing the developer directly and in great numbers by organizing a large population of a game to all send a separate email so devs can have hard evidence that it is a large number of their player base that has the complaint. Lastly and most importantly, following through by not subbing anymore and sticking to your guns. Walking away from the game and really not giving up.

    If a large enough amount of a player base simply stops playing then it will most certainly be changed by devs. As long as the number of people is large enough and the complaints are almost all the same or close to it.

    To simply stop complaining is how North Korea, People's Republic of China, and the USSR are made. I'm joking, but I'm serious. Slippery slopes Bill. Slippery slopes...
  • notalltherenotallthere Member UncommonPosts: 7
    Deasant said:

    Sovrath said:



    What complete garbage, flamebait artifcle tbh. When a character is dripping with gore and showing skeleton, if a company covers that up and replaces it with a bland version of the original, that is censorship.




    Except it's not.

    If a game was just a "work of art" I would agree with you. But it's a product and one designed to make money.

    The companies that create these games have an idea of how much money they want to make. If changing their product allows them into other markets they are going to do it.

    If I was to write a series of short stories that had questionable material and some publisher approached me and asked me if I wanted to bring it to another country BUT I would have to take out some of that questionable material it would depend on whether those stories were completely written with artistic integrity in mind or if they were written to make me money. If they were just for the money, of course I'd change them for another market.

    You are completely dismissing that these games are "products to make money". Of course the developers would like to have some artistic integrity in their work but at the end of the day, if bringing these products to different markets, markets with people/laws that have different sensibilities, means changing them a bit, then they are going to be changed.



    I can't recall a consumer, end user of games, EVER desiring for a game to be created so that it is a successful business endeavor. I have so many priorities about the product that take precedent. Do I desire it? Can I afford it? Will I enjoy it?

    Never once do I think, "if I buy this product from them, will their profit margin please their desires?"
    Then you are a very short-sighted individual. Games that are not successful business endeavors go out of business and take the development teams that made them down along with them. And then you don't get more of those games.

    The more a product costs to make, the more money it has to bring in to recover that investment. If you want it to have all the bells and whistles, but you don't want to actually pay for them enough to keep the game company afloat, then you have unsustainable expectations that no game company can afford to listen to.

    People who steadfastly refuse to acknowledge this reality and incorporate it into their thinking amaze me.
  • illeriller Member UncommonPosts: 518
    Oh come on Bill....You're not fooling anyone here. You're especially not fooling me b/c I've been reading your articles for over a decade and I know you know better than this. You didn't write an article about real problems here. You wrote a buzzfeed concern-troll bait article here. Especially when you invoked the BlackDesert imagery. If the industry had tougher regulations against Fraud and Bait and Switch, you would have been reporting on a Class Action Lawsuit instead of writing about what pussies MMO alpha nerds are. So stop being an apologist for Corporate cult-culture plz.

    Yeah we get it, you have friends who make games. But you're also a Journalist who is supposed to be doing research and investigating. You get paid to take a little ego-hit. Your friends get paid to also take some hits to their egos. If that's too much for their frail Creative-Process to handle, then they don't belong in the goddamned Job to start with. Your viewers however are not getting paid to be insulted and criticized. And on these topics, they frankly shouldn't be. They're being exploited and you freaking know it... You even make reference on #1 by admitting that you're throwing stones at the sleeping hulk that used to be GamerGate. And if the shoe was on the other foot, you'd be right there advocating for them instead. Because all of these things really are slimy manipulative practices that MBA clowns devise up specifically to distract and divide gamers against eachother in ways that aren't fun for anyone. It's just hollow insubstantial instant gratification Rich-Gets-Richer self righteousness, as opposed to the Truly Gamified equal opportunities COMPETITION they bought these games for.
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    edited August 2016
    Distopia said:
    Iselin said:
    Good article @BillMurphy. Spot on.

    Children whine. Adults do not whine. If someone is an adult and whining, then they are mentally immature and should be treated as a child. A time-out sounds like a good course of action. May I suggest limited posting for whiners and an overlay like the jail bars, except make it a bonnet, diaper and baby bottle.
    Were you just whining about whiners? But I thought... never mind.
    There was no complaint or whining there, looked more like an observation to me... -2 for canned response.
    Hardly worth the response, but...

    "To complain or protest in a childish or annoying fashion"

    This sure seemed like whining to me... not to mention ironic: "If someone is an adult and whining, then they are mentally immature and should be treated as a child."

    Calling people who complain about something that you're apathetic about whiners and childish just seems both childish and annoying to me... i.e. whining

    -2 for failed attempt at grammatical correction.
    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

    ― Umberto Eco

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 44,059
    Rukushin said:
    I will simply state that I do NOT agree with a lot in this article. We need to complain or nothing will be done to push the genre forward. How you complain is what the article really should have pointed out.

    As an analogy, right now I agree we as a group of people into MMORPGs tend to complain in the same way the black panthers tried to combat racism. Blow for blow and by force. We need to take the MLK approach and really construct our complaints so we seem more intelligent as a community. Really plan the way we want to deliver the said complaint by emailing the developer directly and in great numbers by organizing a large population of a game to all send a separate email so devs can have hard evidence that it is a large number of their player base that has the complaint. Lastly and most importantly, following through by not subbing anymore and sticking to your guns. Walking away from the game and really not giving up.

    If a large enough amount of a player base simply stops playing then it will most certainly be changed by devs. As long as the number of people is large enough and the complaints are almost all the same or close to it.

    To simply stop complaining is how North Korea, People's Republic of China, and the USSR are made. I'm joking, but I'm serious. Slippery slopes Bill. Slippery slopes...
    I can't think of many instances where player complaints really changed much of anything.

    Games still went F2P, added cash shops, gambling boxes etc. In fact Devs have pretty much done as they wished despite all of the tears.

    Even the final consumer defense, stop paying for games sort of backfired, devs (in the west) responded by not creating new MMORPGS and investing their dollars in other genres.

    So complain if you wish, there's a certain pleasure to it of course, but nothing of consequence is really being accomplished.

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • DeasantDeasant Member UncommonPosts: 198
    Good article @BillMurphy. Spot on.

    Children whine. Adults do not whine. If someone is an adult and whining, then they are mentally immature and should be treated as a child. A time-out sounds like a good course of action. May I suggest limited posting for whiners and an overlay like the jail bars, except make it a bonnet, diaper and baby bottle.
    Is that you Pot? It's your long lost friend Kettle calling.
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    Kyleran said:

    So complain if you wish, there's a certain pleasure to it of course, but nothing of consequence is really being accomplished.
    Unlike all the other monumentally important things we do here :)
    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

    ― Umberto Eco

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • CryolitycalCryolitycal Member UncommonPosts: 205
    How can you be so wrong, so many times in a SINGLE article?!?

    How? Please explain.
  • lilHealalilHeala Member UncommonPosts: 522
    edited August 2016

    Side note? You can’t “win” in PVE, because you’re not competing against anyone.

    PvE mode doesn't mean there's no competition.
    For example hardcore raiding guilds competing for world first raid clears. There's even developers issuing RL prices to those guilds for being first.
    And an example of items considered as (borderline) PTW by many that comes to mind is when in LOTRO they started selling healing and mana potions with higher heal values than any potions craftable in game and with a much shorter cooldown not shared with other potion types.
    I remember several situations where we would've had a chance to survive and win a boss fight in way less attemps if I as a main healer would've had those potions.
    I call it borderline PTW because the currency to acquire store items in LOTRO can be obtained in game (though very limited and grindy). If not then many more would see it as PTW.
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    Oh look! Justin Olivetti (Senior Reporter at Massively) whose 2012 article about lockboxes I linked way back on page 6 of this thread wrote a blog yesterday about Bill's article:

    https://biobreak.wordpress.com/author/ghostfire/

    So five quick rebuttals:

    1. When an MMO news/opinion site that takes in ad revenue (not to mention “sponsored content”) from studios, you don’t really want to give the impression that you’re so far away from criticizing these studios that you’re trying to squelch the community for griping. Appearances matter.
    2. Don’t ever, ever tell me what’s OK for me to complain about or not. That’s condescending and hypocritical coming from a site that criticizes and, yes, sometimes complains about games. I have the right to complain about whatever I want. You have the right not to listen to it.
    3. I get the sentiment that players tend to whine a little too much and beat dead horses without adding anything new to the conversation. But that doesn’t mean that these topics are now off-limits. Instead, guide the community to producing constructive criticism and tone down the rhetoric and knee-jerk emotional responses a bit.
    4. If an MMO news site isn’t being a watchdog against studios’ gross tactics, then why are you berating the community for taking up that slack? Lockboxes and pay-to-win sales are very controversial and, in the eyes of many, have damaged otherwise great games’ reputations. This is pertinent and should be debated.
    5. You really do not get to write a list telling players that they shouldn’t complain and then counter every negative response to said list with, “See? A complaint! Stop it!”
    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

    ― Umberto Eco

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 44,059
    edited August 2016
    Iselin said:
    Oh look! Justin Olivetti (Senior Reporter at Massively) whose 2012 article about lockboxes I linked way back on page 6 of this thread wrote a blog yesterday about Bill's article:

    https://biobreak.wordpress.com/author/ghostfire/

    So five quick rebuttals:

    1. When an MMO news/opinion site that takes in ad revenue (not to mention “sponsored content”) from studios, you don’t really want to give the impression that you’re so far away from criticizing these studios that you’re trying to squelch the community for griping. Appearances matter.
    2. Don’t ever, ever tell me what’s OK for me to complain about or not. That’s condescending and hypocritical coming from a site that criticizes and, yes, sometimes complains about games. I have the right to complain about whatever I want. You have the right not to listen to it.
    3. I get the sentiment that players tend to whine a little too much and beat dead horses without adding anything new to the conversation. But that doesn’t mean that these topics are now off-limits. Instead, guide the community to producing constructive criticism and tone down the rhetoric and knee-jerk emotional responses a bit.
    4. If an MMO news site isn’t being a watchdog against studios’ gross tactics, then why are you berating the community for taking up that slack? Lockboxes and pay-to-win sales are very controversial and, in the eyes of many, have damaged otherwise great games’ reputations. This is pertinent and should be debated.
    5. You really do not get to write a list telling players that they shouldn’t complain and then counter every negative response to said list with, “See? A complaint! Stop it!”
    Thanks for sharing, he definitely falls into the entitled whiner category. :p

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    Kyleran said:
    Thanks for sharing, he definitely falls into the entitled whiner category. :p
    Well he falls into some category... what's the opposite of sycophant? :)
    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

    ― Umberto Eco

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • PhryPhry Member LegendaryPosts: 11,004
    Kyleran said:
    Iselin said:
    Oh look! Justin Olivetti (Senior Reporter at Massively) whose 2012 article about lockboxes I linked way back on page 6 of this thread wrote a blog yesterday about Bill's article:

    https://biobreak.wordpress.com/author/ghostfire/

    So five quick rebuttals:

    1. When an MMO news/opinion site that takes in ad revenue (not to mention “sponsored content”) from studios, you don’t really want to give the impression that you’re so far away from criticizing these studios that you’re trying to squelch the community for griping. Appearances matter.
    2. Don’t ever, ever tell me what’s OK for me to complain about or not. That’s condescending and hypocritical coming from a site that criticizes and, yes, sometimes complains about games. I have the right to complain about whatever I want. You have the right not to listen to it.
    3. I get the sentiment that players tend to whine a little too much and beat dead horses without adding anything new to the conversation. But that doesn’t mean that these topics are now off-limits. Instead, guide the community to producing constructive criticism and tone down the rhetoric and knee-jerk emotional responses a bit.
    4. If an MMO news site isn’t being a watchdog against studios’ gross tactics, then why are you berating the community for taking up that slack? Lockboxes and pay-to-win sales are very controversial and, in the eyes of many, have damaged otherwise great games’ reputations. This is pertinent and should be debated.
    5. You really do not get to write a list telling players that they shouldn’t complain and then counter every negative response to said list with, “See? A complaint! Stop it!”
    Thanks for sharing, he definitely falls into the entitled whiner category. :p
    So are we complaining about the people complaining about whining, or complaining about the people complaining about the people complaining?
  • AkesukeAkesuke Member UncommonPosts: 29
    edited August 2016
    I think that the moment someone starts complaining in a game it's the moment when the point of having fun is lost, it's okay to criticize things but heh ...
    Post edited by Akesuke on
  • RenoakuRenoaku Member EpicPosts: 3,157
    edited August 2016
    When a game company makes a Tripple A MMORPG, I will stop complaining... But the chances of that happening are never. Pay 2 Win depends how you look at it, where it be an item that is for convenience and speed up building time by 2 hours per while F2P players takes longer giving Pay players an advantage, while Pay 2 Enjoy is what I call the other aspect where players have to Pay 2 enjoy the game and acquire all content or DLC a game has to offer, this includes RNG or random boxes....

    LOCALIZATION IS NOT CENSORSHIP, in my eyes this is censorship, and delayed content like Black Desert makes the game Pay 2 Enjoy, and now Pay 2 Win in aspects of the game this needs to be removed from all MMORPG's.

    Its not bad having Cosmetic Items, or lots of DLC packs, its how game companies release them and promote them that is the problem, and games that are made out of the USA are usually like this except MOBA like League OF Legends, even Smite I hate it with their limited time skin thing its a reason I dont play it much at all and find League OF Legends better other than the trolls and toxic kids that plague the game. Games that get it right with items shops currently..
    Rift
    League OF Legends
    FFXIV (Paying per re-customize sucks.)
    SkyForge ( Could be better.)
    APB, Not APB Reloaded. (Gamer's First fail version.)
    GW2 would be in the list but it has too much random items, too hard to acquire all skins and content, and pay 2 enjoy too much along with pay per customize.
    These are the games I see that get things right, they don't force people to have to spend money at a certain time, skins are usually eventually put back on resell, cosmetics are easy to buy packs in Rift to edit a characters appearance for free after buying and so on...
  • RealizerRealizer Member RarePosts: 724
    edited August 2016
    Iselin said:
    Oh look! Justin Olivetti (Senior Reporter at Massively) whose 2012 article about lockboxes I linked way back on page 6 of this thread wrote a blog yesterday about Bill's article:

    https://biobreak.wordpress.com/author/ghostfire/

    So five quick rebuttals:

    1. When an MMO news/opinion site that takes in ad revenue (not to mention “sponsored content”) from studios, you don’t really want to give the impression that you’re so far away from criticizing these studios that you’re trying to squelch the community for griping. Appearances matter.
    2. Don’t ever, ever tell me what’s OK for me to complain about or not. That’s condescending and hypocritical coming from a site that criticizes and, yes, sometimes complains about games. I have the right to complain about whatever I want. You have the right not to listen to it.
    3. I get the sentiment that players tend to whine a little too much and beat dead horses without adding anything new to the conversation. But that doesn’t mean that these topics are now off-limits. Instead, guide the community to producing constructive criticism and tone down the rhetoric and knee-jerk emotional responses a bit.
    4. If an MMO news site isn’t being a watchdog against studios’ gross tactics, then why are you berating the community for taking up that slack? Lockboxes and pay-to-win sales are very controversial and, in the eyes of many, have damaged otherwise great games’ reputations. This is pertinent and should be debated.
    5. You really do not get to write a list telling players that they shouldn’t complain and then counter every negative response to said list with, “See? A complaint! Stop it!”
    This pretty much sums it up perfectly. 

    Edit: As an opinionated Website, you can't expect your readers or members not to also have opinions. Have you all forgotten what GamerGate taught you? Don't try to make an us vs them situation, when you rely on them to put food on your table. Without clicks developers won't give you money. 
  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,857
    Iselin said:
    Kyleran said:

    So complain if you wish, there's a certain pleasure to it of course, but nothing of consequence is really being accomplished.
    Unlike all the other monumentally important things we do here :)
    Yeah, but rolling over and silently accepting garbage and spinning it like we are getting all these beneficial options, will go a long way to correcting the issues with the genre.
  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,857
    edited August 2016
    Phry said:
    Kyleran said:
    Iselin said:
    Oh look! Justin Olivetti (Senior Reporter at Massively) whose 2012 article about lockboxes I linked way back on page 6 of this thread wrote a blog yesterday about Bill's article:

    https://biobreak.wordpress.com/author/ghostfire/

    So five quick rebuttals:

    1. When an MMO news/opinion site that takes in ad revenue (not to mention “sponsored content”) from studios, you don’t really want to give the impression that you’re so far away from criticizing these studios that you’re trying to squelch the community for griping. Appearances matter.
    2. Don’t ever, ever tell me what’s OK for me to complain about or not. That’s condescending and hypocritical coming from a site that criticizes and, yes, sometimes complains about games. I have the right to complain about whatever I want. You have the right not to listen to it.
    3. I get the sentiment that players tend to whine a little too much and beat dead horses without adding anything new to the conversation. But that doesn’t mean that these topics are now off-limits. Instead, guide the community to producing constructive criticism and tone down the rhetoric and knee-jerk emotional responses a bit.
    4. If an MMO news site isn’t being a watchdog against studios’ gross tactics, then why are you berating the community for taking up that slack? Lockboxes and pay-to-win sales are very controversial and, in the eyes of many, have damaged otherwise great games’ reputations. This is pertinent and should be debated.
    5. You really do not get to write a list telling players that they shouldn’t complain and then counter every negative response to said list with, “See? A complaint! Stop it!”
    Thanks for sharing, he definitely falls into the entitled whiner category. :p
    So are we complaining about the people complaining about whining, or complaining about the people complaining about the people complaining?
    Business as usual
    I say that as the biggest offender.
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    Iselin said:
    Kyleran said:

    So complain if you wish, there's a certain pleasure to it of course, but nothing of consequence is really being accomplished.
    Unlike all the other monumentally important things we do here :)
    Yeah, but rolling over and silently accepting garbage and spinning it like we are getting all these beneficial options, will go a long way to correcting the issues with the genre.
    Maybe... I'm not that hopeful actually. What's funny though is how some here are trying to promote apathy and silence as virtues, selectively mind you, but still... in a bloody discussion forum lol.


    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

    ― Umberto Eco

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • BellomoBellomo Member UncommonPosts: 184

    I have found in life you can not make everybody happy. There is going to be people that are not happy no matter what you do. That goes for Dev's, customers and Reporters . This is a bull shit thread that can go on forever haha. One thing it shows me is that the gaming community is alive and well. 

    Godspeed Gamers!!!

  • AkesukeAkesuke Member UncommonPosts: 29
    edited August 2016
    whoops ...
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    Most points seems valid but you can kinda win in PvE. All games have the best gear you can get in them and getting them is sorta winning. 

    Buying the best gear in the game for real world money is certainly pay2win. Gear with lower stats then that could be discussed, I would argue for that they still are pay2win unless they have noob stats like starting gear but that is my own opinion.
    That buying top tiered raid gear is pay2win is more than an opinion, that is a fact.

    There is a lot of things that many consider as pay2win that really isn't, like bag spaces. You certainly don't win just because you can carry more junk. But some things really are, even in PvE.

    PvP is far more sensitive though, and it is rarely that great in MMOs from the start so adding a paywall to it is a really bad move. PvP combat need to be more about skill and less about level and gear and adding a third factor to screw it up will just make PvP even less popular then it already is.
  • ChaserzChaserz Member RarePosts: 336
    edited August 2016

    donger56 said:

    Reading this trash makes me wonder if this guy has ever played an MMO in this decade. What a condescending rant of idiocy this is. This looks like something that belongs on Reddit or something. I understand you make a living being a shill for these greedy dishonest developers, but you could at least try not to suck up every chance you get. There are so many legitimate complaints about the current state of the MMO genre, you could write a book on it. "stop complaining" is hardly a solution or the answer to anything. Western civilization was built because people complained about things like tyranny, high taxes, and oppression so I'll just keep complaining when I see bullshit happening, but thanks for the advice anyway. What a noob....



    Yet here you are. Recharging your complaint bank today? Yeah Bill Murphy is a n00b. Please continue to share with your captive audience more of your prolific insight.
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