Yes you're the only one. I'm tired of gankers and griefers and all other sorts of people that make PvP annoying. Go play MOBAs if you want to fight other players, I'd rather work with them on larger quests.
When I was reading about Dark and Light it's one thing that is kind of off putting. It's not that I want to gank people who don't want to be They are usually empty unless you have hard factions separating the players with few areas of open world PVP.
PvP servers empty because of the generally toxic and generally more fickle PvP 'community'.
I support PvPers sorting their own culture out and creating sustainable servers for themselves, rather than looking to inflict it on us PvEers.
Yes you're the only one. I'm tired of gankers and griefers and all other sorts of people that make PvP annoying. Go play MOBAs if you want to fight other players, I'd rather work with them on larger quests.
and the thing is I dont understand why developers struggle so much with this.
You cant create a system in which one party want to hit another party who does not want to be hit and make the game good for both people. the motivation of the first is by its definition not going to work. ever.
now pvp on those who want to pvp is a different equation all together.
this isnt the only terrible developer design i have seen popularized either it seems so simple to me I dont understand why its so complicated for them.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
I'd much prefer one server. But these games aren't willing to do what it takes to remove, or drastically reduce, rampant PKing, which is to put a real Justice System in. Something that works. Or alternately, a system that depends on a social order of things and gives players an incentive to defend against that sort of lawless, chaotic, unrealistic, constant "king of the hill" stuff.
So, assuming someone makes a game I want to play (and I've become much more hard to please since I've found I don't need an MMO anymore), I'll stay away from that sort of PvP. And I love good PvP with meaning and not stalking me at all times.
I dont think that would work well.
The end result would be pvp gankers who are unhappy because their toon is permanently in jail, PvE and territorial pvp players unhappy while the gankers were not in jail and when they are in jail its as if the system didnt exist in the first place. leaving a lot of code written for nothing
The point is that you really don't want those grief types in a game like I'm suggesting. They should be unhappy and either leave or change their play style.
The way you do that is you allow the Justice System to actually do harm to that grief character, weakening them to make them less and less effective. In that way, if they continue they will turn their character into a newb skill level and never be able to get ahead. On the other side, you are rewarding the victims. They get their justice, and they are part of the bigger social sphere in that action. There's also monetary-gear reward flowing their way instead of away from them. They remain happy.
The ultimate goal is to have a game where any PvP is allowed, but grief (or crime) is minimal because it doesn't pay.
But no one seems to want this. That's ok with me. I'm just saying it's possible, and if someone did it in an otherwise great game that would be my preference. So we can continue with games divided (and less meaningful). Doesn't bother me one bit.
which is why i am suggesting just turning it off.
if the system is too Draconian then no pvper will touch the game. if its too laxed no pve player will play the game, anywhere in between one party or the other is not going to be pleased becasue you are LITERALLY trying to create a system for two people in which one wants to hit one who does not want to be hit and make the system pleasant for both people. its impossible to the laws of physics
pvp on to pve players is by its very defition the desire to strike those who do not want to be struck.
nobody should bother trying to make such a system equitable for both parties.
I think that most players are in between. This system still leaves room for sanctioned PvP like guild wars, gives protection and or justice to the other players. But it adds that elusive "realism" of crime and instant confrontation based on reason and meaning. I know, I know, you can't see how this can be done even if you could see the benefit.
Like I said, that's ok with me if you can't see it, even if the whole industry can't see it (which is the case, I think). Because I don't care, MMOs and gaming have lost a lot of meaning to me as a whole over the years. Exactly because of these types of rut-thinking. They'll never be more than they are now.
I'd much prefer one server. But these games aren't willing to do what it takes to remove, or drastically reduce, rampant PKing, which is to put a real Justice System in. Something that works. Or alternately, a system that depends on a social order of things and gives players an incentive to defend against that sort of lawless, chaotic, unrealistic, constant "king of the hill" stuff.
So, assuming someone makes a game I want to play (and I've become much more hard to please since I've found I don't need an MMO anymore), I'll stay away from that sort of PvP. And I love good PvP with meaning and not stalking me at all times.
I dont think that would work well.
The end result would be pvp gankers who are unhappy because their toon is permanently in jail, PvE and territorial pvp players unhappy while the gankers were not in jail and when they are in jail its as if the system didnt exist in the first place. leaving a lot of code written for nothing
The point is that you really don't want those grief types in a game like I'm suggesting. They should be unhappy and either leave or change their play style.
The way you do that is you allow the Justice System to actually do harm to that grief character, weakening them to make them less and less effective. In that way, if they continue they will turn their character into a newb skill level and never be able to get ahead. On the other side, you are rewarding the victims. They get their justice, and they are part of the bigger social sphere in that action. There's also monetary-gear reward flowing their way instead of away from them. They remain happy.
The ultimate goal is to have a game where any PvP is allowed, but grief (or crime) is minimal because it doesn't pay.
But no one seems to want this. That's ok with me. I'm just saying it's possible, and if someone did it in an otherwise great game that would be my preference. So we can continue with games divided (and less meaningful). Doesn't bother me one bit.
which is why i am suggesting just turning it off.
if the system is too Draconian then no pvper will touch the game. if its too laxed no pve player will play the game, anywhere in between one party or the other is not going to be pleased becasue you are LITERALLY trying to create a system for two people in which one wants to hit one who does not want to be hit and make the system pleasant for both people. its impossible to the laws of physics
pvp on to pve players is by its very defition the desire to strike those who do not want to be struck.
nobody should bother trying to make such a system equitable for both parties.
I think that most players are in between. This system still leaves room for sanctioned PvP like guild wars, gives protection and or justice to the other players. But it adds that elusive "realism" of crime and instant confrontation based on reason and meaning. I know, I know, you can't see how this can be done even if you could see the benefit.
Like I said, that's ok with me if you can't see it, even if the whole industry can't see it (which is the case, I think). Because I don't care, MMOs and gaming have lost a lot of meaning to me as a whole over the years. Exactly because of these types of rut-thinking. They'll never be more than they are now.
I can see such a system working in a game that is advertised as a pvp game. PvP meaning the game wants to try and focus on realm vs realm style pvp and try to avoid random ganking. However in game that is trying to appeal to pve players I think its a waste of time.
as a side note I played Darkfall for 4 years namely because for the features I liked in the game there was not other options, however now there are. not exactly but in general, more appealing game play for pve players now exist that didnt exist before.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
I'd much prefer one server. But these games aren't willing to do what it takes to remove, or drastically reduce, rampant PKing, which is to put a real Justice System in. Something that works. Or alternately, a system that depends on a social order of things and gives players an incentive to defend against that sort of lawless, chaotic, unrealistic, constant "king of the hill" stuff.
So, assuming someone makes a game I want to play (and I've become much more hard to please since I've found I don't need an MMO anymore), I'll stay away from that sort of PvP. And I love good PvP with meaning and not stalking me at all times.
I dont think that would work well.
The end result would be pvp gankers who are unhappy because their toon is permanently in jail, PvE and territorial pvp players unhappy while the gankers were not in jail and when they are in jail its as if the system didnt exist in the first place. leaving a lot of code written for nothing
The point is that you really don't want those grief types in a game like I'm suggesting. They should be unhappy and either leave or change their play style.
The way you do that is you allow the Justice System to actually do harm to that grief character, weakening them to make them less and less effective. In that way, if they continue they will turn their character into a newb skill level and never be able to get ahead. On the other side, you are rewarding the victims. They get their justice, and they are part of the bigger social sphere in that action. There's also monetary-gear reward flowing their way instead of away from them. They remain happy.
The ultimate goal is to have a game where any PvP is allowed, but grief (or crime) is minimal because it doesn't pay.
But no one seems to want this. That's ok with me. I'm just saying it's possible, and if someone did it in an otherwise great game that would be my preference. So we can continue with games divided (and less meaningful). Doesn't bother me one bit.
which is why i am suggesting just turning it off.
if the system is too Draconian then no pvper will touch the game. if its too laxed no pve player will play the game, anywhere in between one party or the other is not going to be pleased becasue you are LITERALLY trying to create a system for two people in which one wants to hit one who does not want to be hit and make the system pleasant for both people. its impossible to the laws of physics
pvp on to pve players is by its very defition the desire to strike those who do not want to be struck.
nobody should bother trying to make such a system equitable for both parties.
I think that most players are in between. This system still leaves room for sanctioned PvP like guild wars, gives protection and or justice to the other players. But it adds that elusive "realism" of crime and instant confrontation based on reason and meaning. I know, I know, you can't see how this can be done even if you could see the benefit.
Like I said, that's ok with me if you can't see it, even if the whole industry can't see it (which is the case, I think). Because I don't care, MMOs and gaming have lost a lot of meaning to me as a whole over the years. Exactly because of these types of rut-thinking. They'll never be more than they are now.
I can see such a system working in a game that is advertised as a pvp game. PvP meaning the game wants to try and focus on realm vs realm style pvp and try to avoid random ganking. However in game that is trying to appeal to pve players I think its a waste of time.
as a side note I played Darkfall for 4 years namely because for the features I liked in the game there was not other options, however now there are. not exactly but in general, more appealing game play for pve players now exist that didnt exist before.
"Realm vs. Realm" is done in a Battle Zone sort of way as far as I can see. That's not what I'm talking about. And both of those, Realm vs. Realm and Battle Zones, is sooo rooted in rut. lol
I'd much prefer one server. But these games aren't willing to do what it takes to remove, or drastically reduce, rampant PKing, which is to put a real Justice System in. Something that works. Or alternately, a system that depends on a social order of things and gives players an incentive to defend against that sort of lawless, chaotic, unrealistic, constant "king of the hill" stuff.
So, assuming someone makes a game I want to play (and I've become much more hard to please since I've found I don't need an MMO anymore), I'll stay away from that sort of PvP. And I love good PvP with meaning and not stalking me at all times.
I dont think that would work well.
The end result would be pvp gankers who are unhappy because their toon is permanently in jail, PvE and territorial pvp players unhappy while the gankers were not in jail and when they are in jail its as if the system didnt exist in the first place. leaving a lot of code written for nothing
The point is that you really don't want those grief types in a game like I'm suggesting. They should be unhappy and either leave or change their play style.
The way you do that is you allow the Justice System to actually do harm to that grief character, weakening them to make them less and less effective. In that way, if they continue they will turn their character into a newb skill level and never be able to get ahead. On the other side, you are rewarding the victims. They get their justice, and they are part of the bigger social sphere in that action. There's also monetary-gear reward flowing their way instead of away from them. They remain happy.
The ultimate goal is to have a game where any PvP is allowed, but grief (or crime) is minimal because it doesn't pay.
But no one seems to want this. That's ok with me. I'm just saying it's possible, and if someone did it in an otherwise great game that would be my preference. So we can continue with games divided (and less meaningful). Doesn't bother me one bit.
which is why i am suggesting just turning it off.
if the system is too Draconian then no pvper will touch the game. if its too laxed no pve player will play the game, anywhere in between one party or the other is not going to be pleased becasue you are LITERALLY trying to create a system for two people in which one wants to hit one who does not want to be hit and make the system pleasant for both people. its impossible to the laws of physics
pvp on to pve players is by its very defition the desire to strike those who do not want to be struck.
nobody should bother trying to make such a system equitable for both parties.
I think that most players are in between. This system still leaves room for sanctioned PvP like guild wars, gives protection and or justice to the other players. But it adds that elusive "realism" of crime and instant confrontation based on reason and meaning. I know, I know, you can't see how this can be done even if you could see the benefit.
Like I said, that's ok with me if you can't see it, even if the whole industry can't see it (which is the case, I think). Because I don't care, MMOs and gaming have lost a lot of meaning to me as a whole over the years. Exactly because of these types of rut-thinking. They'll never be more than they are now.
I can see such a system working in a game that is advertised as a pvp game. PvP meaning the game wants to try and focus on realm vs realm style pvp and try to avoid random ganking. However in game that is trying to appeal to pve players I think its a waste of time.
as a side note I played Darkfall for 4 years namely because for the features I liked in the game there was not other options, however now there are. not exactly but in general, more appealing game play for pve players now exist that didnt exist before.
"Realm vs. Realm" is done in a Battle Zone sort of way as far as I can see. That's not what I'm talking about. And both of those, Realm vs. Realm and Battle Zones, is sooo rooted in rut. lol
well I use that term loosely. basically all pvp gaming that isnt clearly just ganking is what I am trying to suggest
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
I'd much prefer one server. But these games aren't willing to do what it takes to remove, or drastically reduce, rampant PKing, which is to put a real Justice System in. Something that works. Or alternately, a system that depends on a social order of things and gives players an incentive to defend against that sort of lawless, chaotic, unrealistic, constant "king of the hill" stuff.
So, assuming someone makes a game I want to play (and I've become much more hard to please since I've found I don't need an MMO anymore), I'll stay away from that sort of PvP. And I love good PvP with meaning and not stalking me at all times.
I dont think that would work well.
The end result would be pvp gankers who are unhappy because their toon is permanently in jail, PvE and territorial pvp players unhappy while the gankers were not in jail and when they are in jail its as if the system didnt exist in the first place. leaving a lot of code written for nothing
The point is that you really don't want those grief types in a game like I'm suggesting. They should be unhappy and either leave or change their play style.
The way you do that is you allow the Justice System to actually do harm to that grief character, weakening them to make them less and less effective. In that way, if they continue they will turn their character into a newb skill level and never be able to get ahead. On the other side, you are rewarding the victims. They get their justice, and they are part of the bigger social sphere in that action. There's also monetary-gear reward flowing their way instead of away from them. They remain happy.
The ultimate goal is to have a game where any PvP is allowed, but grief (or crime) is minimal because it doesn't pay.
But no one seems to want this. That's ok with me. I'm just saying it's possible, and if someone did it in an otherwise great game that would be my preference. So we can continue with games divided (and less meaningful). Doesn't bother me one bit.
which is why i am suggesting just turning it off.
if the system is too Draconian then no pvper will touch the game. if its too laxed no pve player will play the game, anywhere in between one party or the other is not going to be pleased becasue you are LITERALLY trying to create a system for two people in which one wants to hit one who does not want to be hit and make the system pleasant for both people. its impossible to the laws of physics
pvp on to pve players is by its very defition the desire to strike those who do not want to be struck.
nobody should bother trying to make such a system equitable for both parties.
I think that most players are in between. This system still leaves room for sanctioned PvP like guild wars, gives protection and or justice to the other players. But it adds that elusive "realism" of crime and instant confrontation based on reason and meaning. I know, I know, you can't see how this can be done even if you could see the benefit.
Like I said, that's ok with me if you can't see it, even if the whole industry can't see it (which is the case, I think). Because I don't care, MMOs and gaming have lost a lot of meaning to me as a whole over the years. Exactly because of these types of rut-thinking. They'll never be more than they are now.
I can see such a system working in a game that is advertised as a pvp game. PvP meaning the game wants to try and focus on realm vs realm style pvp and try to avoid random ganking. However in game that is trying to appeal to pve players I think its a waste of time.
as a side note I played Darkfall for 4 years namely because for the features I liked in the game there was not other options, however now there are. not exactly but in general, more appealing game play for pve players now exist that didnt exist before.
"Realm vs. Realm" is done in a Battle Zone sort of way as far as I can see. That's not what I'm talking about. And both of those, Realm vs. Realm and Battle Zones, is sooo rooted in rut. lol
well I use that term loosely. basically all pvp gaming that isnt clearly just ganking is what I am trying to suggest
Ya see, "pvp gaming that isnt clearly just ganking", these games that do have ganking offer something that is removed by all other attempts to have PvP restricted (such as battle grounds). They offer freedom and that "it can happen anywhere" thing. If only that didn't include the ganking we all know and love or hate.
I'm suggesting a way for that "if only", for a much more interesting game world.
"Realm vs. Realm" is done in a Battle Zone sort of way as far as I can see. That's not what I'm talking about. And both of those, Realm vs. Realm and Battle Zones, is sooo rooted in rut. lol
well I use that term loosely. basically all pvp gaming that isnt clearly just ganking is what I am trying to suggest
Ya see, "pvp gaming that isnt clearly just ganking", these games offer something that is removed by all other attempts to have PvP restricted (such as battle grounds). They offer freedom and that "it can happen anywhere" thing. If only that didn't include the ganking we all know and love or hate.
I'm suggesting a way for that "if only", for a much more interesting game world.
yes I agree.
I think we just came at odd because of the 'players who want to pve part' but yes I would totally agree that a legal/punishment system in a game that is trying to go 'good' PvP is rather attractive.
Territorial/clan warfare PvP can be a lot of fun I agree. still not my thing but at least I 'get' it.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
I'd much prefer one server. But these games aren't willing to do what it takes to remove, or drastically reduce, rampant PKing, which is to put a real Justice System in. Something that works. Or alternately, a system that depends on a social order of things and gives players an incentive to defend against that sort of lawless, chaotic, unrealistic, constant "king of the hill" stuff.
So, assuming someone makes a game I want to play (and I've become much more hard to please since I've found I don't need an MMO anymore), I'll stay away from that sort of PvP. And I love good PvP with meaning and not stalking me at all times.
I dont think that would work well.
The end result would be pvp gankers who are unhappy because their toon is permanently in jail, PvE and territorial pvp players unhappy while the gankers were not in jail and when they are in jail its as if the system didnt exist in the first place. leaving a lot of code written for nothing
The point is that you really don't want those grief types in a game like I'm suggesting. They should be unhappy and either leave or change their play style.
The way you do that is you allow the Justice System to actually do harm to that grief character, weakening them to make them less and less effective. In that way, if they continue they will turn their character into a newb skill level and never be able to get ahead. On the other side, you are rewarding the victims. They get their justice, and they are part of the bigger social sphere in that action. There's also monetary-gear reward flowing their way instead of away from them. They remain happy.
The ultimate goal is to have a game where any PvP is allowed, but grief (or crime) is minimal because it doesn't pay.
But no one seems to want this. That's ok with me. I'm just saying it's possible, and if someone did it in an otherwise great game that would be my preference. So we can continue with games divided (and less meaningful). Doesn't bother me one bit.
Games really do need a better developed justice system. Look at real life, you have a layered justice system. Local, regional, national, and world enforcement. Games are still in the wild wild west phase when it comes to this with just the Devs handling enforcement and players reporting violations that may or may not get looked into. A better justice system would lead to more balanced gameplay if done correctly.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
"Realm vs. Realm" is done in a Battle Zone sort of way as far as I can see. That's not what I'm talking about. And both of those, Realm vs. Realm and Battle Zones, is sooo rooted in rut. lol
well I use that term loosely. basically all pvp gaming that isnt clearly just ganking is what I am trying to suggest
Ya see, "pvp gaming that isnt clearly just ganking", these games offer something that is removed by all other attempts to have PvP restricted (such as battle grounds). They offer freedom and that "it can happen anywhere" thing. If only that didn't include the ganking we all know and love or hate.
I'm suggesting a way for that "if only", for a much more interesting game world.
yes I agree.
I think we just came at odd because of the 'players who want to pve part' but yes I would totally agree that a legal/punishment system in a game that is trying to go 'good' PvP is rather attractive.
Territorial/clan warfare PvP can be a lot of fun I agree. still not my thing but at least I 'get' it.
I'm suggesting more than that. I apologize for not being clear enough.
Imagine this... A guild/city of players, after much time searching ancient records and dusty tomes, finally discovers an ancient artifact of the god of mining. It can be attuned to any one mine at a time, and once placed on the altar of said deity, bumps up ore production. Something of real value. They attune it and place it on an altar in a local player owned temple to said deity. But they do this secretly hiding it in the lower rooms.
Now, another city or guild gets wind of this. They investigate and realize that this artifact is likely there. They steal it, committing crimes ranging from breaking and entering to theft, possibly to killing NPC guards, and possibly even killing player characters.
So the victims, who just lost their artifact, set out to track them down and retrieve their artifact, and also to cause punishment to the criminals. That punishment should range from "manageable" to "very harsh", depending on the criminal record of the actors.
Meanwhile, the criminals know they'll be tracking them, so they stay on the move and in hiding. They hope to outlast both the tracking ability and the criminal justice they face (which should last longer based on their criminal record).
And this sort of thing can happen with anything, at any time, anywhere in the game world.
This adds all sorts of game play and interesting tactical planning. From keeping secrets to hiding important things to seeking knowledge and etc., etc., etc.
Secret spy cults become playable in a big way. So do a lot of other aspects of play missing in MMO worlds.
"Realm vs. Realm" is done in a Battle Zone sort of way as far as I can see. That's not what I'm talking about. And both of those, Realm vs. Realm and Battle Zones, is sooo rooted in rut. lol
well I use that term loosely. basically all pvp gaming that isnt clearly just ganking is what I am trying to suggest
Ya see, "pvp gaming that isnt clearly just ganking", these games offer something that is removed by all other attempts to have PvP restricted (such as battle grounds). They offer freedom and that "it can happen anywhere" thing. If only that didn't include the ganking we all know and love or hate.
I'm suggesting a way for that "if only", for a much more interesting game world.
yes I agree.
I think we just came at odd because of the 'players who want to pve part' but yes I would totally agree that a legal/punishment system in a game that is trying to go 'good' PvP is rather attractive.
Territorial/clan warfare PvP can be a lot of fun I agree. still not my thing but at least I 'get' it.
I'm suggesting more than that. I apologize for not being clear enough.
Imagine this... A guild/city of players, after much time searching ancient records and dusty tomes, finally discovers an ancient artifact of the god of mining. It can be attuned to any one mine at a time, and once placed on the altar of said deity, bumps up ore production. Something of real value. They attune it and place it on an altar in a local player owned temple to said deity. But they do this secretly hiding it in the lower rooms.
Now, another city or guild gets wind of this. They investigate and realize that this artifact is likely there. They steal it, committing crimes ranging from breaking and entering to theft, possibly to killing NPC guards, and possibly even killing player characters.
So the victims, who just lost their artifact, set out to track them down and retrieve their artifact, and also to cause punishment to the criminals. That punishment should range from "manageable" to "very harsh", depending on the criminal record of the actors.
Meanwhile, the criminals know they'll be tracking them, so they stay on the move and in hiding. They hope to outlast both the tracking ability and the criminal justice they face (which should last longer based on their criminal record).
And this sort of thing can happen with anything, at any time, anywhere in the game world.
This adds all sorts of game play and interesting tactical planning. From keeping secrets to hiding important things to seeking knowledge and etc., etc., etc.
Secret spy cults become playable in a big way. So do a lot of other aspects of play missing in MMO worlds.
what I am saying is far more basic then all this explanation.
1. a game that is trying to attract pve players jail systems are silly
2. a game that is trying to attract pvp players jail systems make sense so that the game can focus on good pvp design rather than just ganking (whatever that pvp design may or may not be)
3. Given that although I do understand the appeal to some forms of pvp play I myself am not inclined to play any of them. so my attention to details would be lacking in motovation
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Well I love PvP, I do not love ganking, nor do I enjoy listening to PvE types whine no-stop about ganking. So I am all for separate servers, orrrr the SWG system where you can just ignore the PvP if you want to. As the more vocal PvE'ers pointed out, the lawless servers tend to be the most dead servers, and I like to do a PvE quite often really. Enough to be a passable raid tank anyway. It's nice to just log in and do some mindless raid or dungeon. Relaxing, make some friends, but when I want a challenge it has to be PvP.
So over all I prefer the SWG opt-out system, but in lieu of that I prefer just keeping the two styles separate. As this thread has proven there are people that can PvP and not take it personally and then there are the...others who seem to think murder is being visited upon their person whenever their little toon dies. Quite sad really.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
Well I love PvP, I do not love ganking, nor do I enjoy listening to PvE types whine no-stop about ganking. So I am all for separate servers, orrrr the SWG system where you can just ignore the PvP if you want to. As the more vocal PvE'ers pointed out, the lawless servers tend to be the most dead servers, and I like to do a PvE quite often really. Enough to be a passable raid tank anyway. It's nice to just log in and do some mindless raid or dungeon. Relaxing, make some friends, but when I want a challenge it has to be PvP.
So over all I prefer the SWG opt-out system, but in lieu of that I prefer just keeping the two styles separate. As this thread has proven there are people that can PvP and not take it personally and then there are the...others who seem to think murder is being visited upon their person whenever their little toon dies. Quite sad really.
holy smokes I think 100% of this is reasonable and sound
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Instead of a justice system why not get creative and turn a character into stone for 2 weeks or longer depending on what they did. Or turn them into a frog or something for a month.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
"Realm vs. Realm" is done in a Battle Zone sort of way as far as I can see. That's not what I'm talking about. And both of those, Realm vs. Realm and Battle Zones, is sooo rooted in rut. lol
well I use that term loosely. basically all pvp gaming that isnt clearly just ganking is what I am trying to suggest
Ya see, "pvp gaming that isnt clearly just ganking", these games offer something that is removed by all other attempts to have PvP restricted (such as battle grounds). They offer freedom and that "it can happen anywhere" thing. If only that didn't include the ganking we all know and love or hate.
I'm suggesting a way for that "if only", for a much more interesting game world.
yes I agree.
I think we just came at odd because of the 'players who want to pve part' but yes I would totally agree that a legal/punishment system in a game that is trying to go 'good' PvP is rather attractive.
Territorial/clan warfare PvP can be a lot of fun I agree. still not my thing but at least I 'get' it.
I'm suggesting more than that. I apologize for not being clear enough.
Imagine this... A guild/city of players, after much time searching ancient records and dusty tomes, finally discovers an ancient artifact of the god of mining. It can be attuned to any one mine at a time, and once placed on the altar of said deity, bumps up ore production. Something of real value. They attune it and place it on an altar in a local player owned temple to said deity. But they do this secretly hiding it in the lower rooms.
Now, another city or guild gets wind of this. They investigate and realize that this artifact is likely there. They steal it, committing crimes ranging from breaking and entering to theft, possibly to killing NPC guards, and possibly even killing player characters.
So the victims, who just lost their artifact, set out to track them down and retrieve their artifact, and also to cause punishment to the criminals. That punishment should range from "manageable" to "very harsh", depending on the criminal record of the actors.
Meanwhile, the criminals know they'll be tracking them, so they stay on the move and in hiding. They hope to outlast both the tracking ability and the criminal justice they face (which should last longer based on their criminal record).
And this sort of thing can happen with anything, at any time, anywhere in the game world.
This adds all sorts of game play and interesting tactical planning. From keeping secrets to hiding important things to seeking knowledge and etc., etc., etc.
Secret spy cults become playable in a big way. So do a lot of other aspects of play missing in MMO worlds.
what I am saying is far more basic then all this explanation.
1. a game that is trying to attract pve players jail systems are silly
2. a game that is trying to attract pvp players jail systems make sense so that the game can focus on good pvp design rather than just ganking (whatever that pvp design may or may not be)
3. Given that although I do understand the appeal to some forms of pvp play I myself am not inclined to play any of them. so my attention to details would be lacking in motovation
That's fine. Like I said before, "They'll never be more than they are now."
There is already a pretty good justice system that works nice in some games. Its called Guilds and their players. This mostly works in games that have factions cause there is the need to fix ur house (pkers) cause u will have a fight sooner or later and u need ur faction strong. That leads in some nice interactions between pkers and their guilds and the rest of the faction.
Sadly, PvP can exist in an mmo setting and not have it be a breeding ground of toxic behavior. The PvP needs to actually exist for a reason though, and not solely for the enjoyment of killing each other. There's plenty of other genres of games that are 100% PvP based.
There's a reason why DAoC is still so revered in the mmo community when discussing PvP. It made sense. There was a reason behind it, and since it was Realm vs. Realm, there was an inherent spirit of cooperation among your realmmates. Even GW2 managed to not be a total toxic behavior-fest in WvWvW. Yes, there is in-fighting at times, but for the most part, it's about the spirit of cooperation.
If you want the open world PvP experience, but not have it affect your PvE folks, the PvP system in Asheron's Call was pretty good too. People had to go to the temple and "turn red". This was a choice, and you couldn't just accidentally be tossed into PvP unwillingly. Being able to sit in a town and see a pretty good fight break out among the PvPers was entertaining, and my experiences weren't diminished in any way. AC even had Darktide, which was a full on OWPvP server. So there were options for folks who did and did not want to participate in PvP.
I don't mind that separate PvP servers exist for those who want to play the game in that way. After all, choices aren't a bad thing. However, I far more prefer that the PvP be built into the game with an actual purpose in mind, and that it's a natural part of the game in that regard. Just not some side attraction, or even a replacement for any and all PvE content.
I wouldn't mind them removing the concept of PvP Servers and PvE Servers I don't really care for that. Regular Servers, Problem solved. Go to PvP flagged zones, you have to flag yourself if you want to find players to pwn. Its not that hard really. As a pvper I really don't see much of a point in a PvP server, I really don't.
It separates the player base and I want to feel like everyone is contributing to the game, contributing to the world, not just for themselves.
The acronym MMORPG use to mean Massive Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game.
But the acronym MMMORPG now currently means Microscopic Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game. Kappa.
not only can they have different rule sets BUT they can also change skills/items without effecting the pve or pvp portion (nerf a skill that is too OP in pvp you will leave the PVE un-touched. I have seen many skills in mmos become useless because (no offence) a pvp crybaby complained enough that they changed it. Look at ESO with how bad their balance is. people complain about x skill or armor being OP in pvp but in pve they are TOTALLY useless.
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I wouldn't mind them removing the concept of PvP Servers and PvE Servers I don't really care for that. Regular Servers, Problem solved. Go to PvP flagged zones, you have to flag yourself if you want to find players to pwn. Its not that hard really. As a pvper I really don't see much of a point in a PvP server, I really don't.
It separates the player base and I want to feel like everyone is contributing to the game, contributing to the world, not just for themselves.
In theory what you propose seems "fair" balance but we know what happens and why pve and pvp players don't like that.
We start with zones that have pvp enabled on them, then we get similar zones with dungeons, rare materials etc etc thus forcing pve players to go there if they want the best gear. And suddenly from fair it becomes the same crap we have now on forcing people to pvp.
yes in PvP servers you can hyper pump up your skills considerably faster then you can on your PvE server (one player can go back and forth between the two servers types all the want). However, on PvE honestly nobody cares! its your property, your skills you making your stuff no fucks given.
So it works
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
not only can they have different rule sets BUT they can also change skills/items without effecting the pve or pvp portion (nerf a skill that is too OP in pvp you will leave the PVE un-touched. I have seen many skills in mmos become useless because (no offence) a pvp crybaby complained enough that they changed it. Look at ESO with how bad their balance is. people complain about x skill or armor being OP in pvp but in pve they are TOTALLY useless.
I can't wait until those people play a different game and complain about not finding any good mats to craft high grade armor/weapons.
The acronym MMORPG use to mean Massive Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game.
But the acronym MMMORPG now currently means Microscopic Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game. Kappa.
You need separate servers. I enjoy playing on a PvP server BUT I have observed many of those who play on PvP servers enjoy ruining other people's gaming experience and will go through tons of effort to accomplish that. It's bizarre, I can't fathom the motivation behind it, not likeable people BUT the sense of danger keeps me coming back.
Comments
PvP servers empty because of the generally toxic and generally more fickle PvP 'community'.
I support PvPers sorting their own culture out and creating sustainable servers for themselves, rather than looking to inflict it on us PvEers.
You cant create a system in which one party want to hit another party who does not want to be hit and make the game good for both people. the motivation of the first is by its definition not going to work. ever.
now pvp on those who want to pvp is a different equation all together.
this isnt the only terrible developer design i have seen popularized either it seems so simple to me I dont understand why its so complicated for them.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
But it adds that elusive "realism" of crime and instant confrontation based on reason and meaning.
I know, I know, you can't see how this can be done even if you could see the benefit.
Like I said, that's ok with me if you can't see it, even if the whole industry can't see it (which is the case, I think). Because I don't care, MMOs and gaming have lost a lot of meaning to me as a whole over the years. Exactly because of these types of rut-thinking. They'll never be more than they are now.
Once upon a time....
However in game that is trying to appeal to pve players I think its a waste of time.
as a side note I played Darkfall for 4 years namely because for the features I liked in the game there was not other options, however now there are. not exactly but in general, more appealing game play for pve players now exist that didnt exist before.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
And both of those, Realm vs. Realm and Battle Zones, is sooo rooted in rut. lol
Once upon a time....
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
They offer freedom and that "it can happen anywhere" thing. If only that didn't include the ganking we all know and love or hate.
I'm suggesting a way for that "if only", for a much more interesting game world.
Once upon a time....
I think we just came at odd because of the 'players who want to pve part' but yes I would totally agree that a legal/punishment system in a game that is trying to go 'good' PvP is rather attractive.
Territorial/clan warfare PvP can be a lot of fun I agree. still not my thing but at least I 'get' it.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Imagine this...
A guild/city of players, after much time searching ancient records and dusty tomes, finally discovers an ancient artifact of the god of mining. It can be attuned to any one mine at a time, and once placed on the altar of said deity, bumps up ore production. Something of real value. They attune it and place it on an altar in a local player owned temple to said deity. But they do this secretly hiding it in the lower rooms.
Now, another city or guild gets wind of this. They investigate and realize that this artifact is likely there.
They steal it, committing crimes ranging from breaking and entering to theft, possibly to killing NPC guards, and possibly even killing player characters.
So the victims, who just lost their artifact, set out to track them down and retrieve their artifact, and also to cause punishment to the criminals. That punishment should range from "manageable" to "very harsh", depending on the criminal record of the actors.
Meanwhile, the criminals know they'll be tracking them, so they stay on the move and in hiding. They hope to outlast both the tracking ability and the criminal justice they face (which should last longer based on their criminal record).
And this sort of thing can happen with anything, at any time, anywhere in the game world.
This adds all sorts of game play and interesting tactical planning. From keeping secrets to hiding important things to seeking knowledge and etc., etc., etc.
Secret spy cults become playable in a big way. So do a lot of other aspects of play missing in MMO worlds.
Once upon a time....
1. a game that is trying to attract pve players
jail systems are silly
2. a game that is trying to attract pvp players
jail systems make sense so that the game can focus on good pvp design rather than just ganking (whatever that pvp design may or may not be)
3. Given that although I do understand the appeal to some forms of pvp play I myself am not inclined to play any of them. so my attention to details would be lacking in motovation
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
So over all I prefer the SWG opt-out system, but in lieu of that I prefer just keeping the two styles separate. As this thread has proven there are people that can PvP and not take it personally and then there are the...others who seem to think murder is being visited upon their person whenever their little toon dies. Quite sad really.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
Incognito
www.incognito-gaming.us
"You're either with us or against us"
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Once upon a time....
Its called Guilds and their players.
This mostly works in games that have factions cause there is the need to fix ur house (pkers) cause u will have a fight sooner or later and u need ur faction strong.
That leads in some nice interactions between pkers and their guilds and the rest of the faction.
There's a reason why DAoC is still so revered in the mmo community when discussing PvP. It made sense. There was a reason behind it, and since it was Realm vs. Realm, there was an inherent spirit of cooperation among your realmmates. Even GW2 managed to not be a total toxic behavior-fest in WvWvW. Yes, there is in-fighting at times, but for the most part, it's about the spirit of cooperation.
If you want the open world PvP experience, but not have it affect your PvE folks, the PvP system in Asheron's Call was pretty good too. People had to go to the temple and "turn red". This was a choice, and you couldn't just accidentally be tossed into PvP unwillingly. Being able to sit in a town and see a pretty good fight break out among the PvPers was entertaining, and my experiences weren't diminished in any way. AC even had Darktide, which was a full on OWPvP server. So there were options for folks who did and did not want to participate in PvP.
I don't mind that separate PvP servers exist for those who want to play the game in that way. After all, choices aren't a bad thing. However, I far more prefer that the PvP be built into the game with an actual purpose in mind, and that it's a natural part of the game in that regard. Just not some side attraction, or even a replacement for any and all PvE content.
It separates the player base and I want to feel like everyone is contributing to the game, contributing to the world, not just for themselves.
But the acronym MMMORPG now currently means Microscopic Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game. Kappa.
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We start with zones that have pvp enabled on them, then we get similar zones with dungeons, rare materials etc etc thus forcing pve players to go there if they want the best gear. And suddenly from fair it becomes the same crap we have now on forcing people to pvp.
yes in PvP servers you can hyper pump up your skills considerably faster then you can on your PvE server (one player can go back and forth between the two servers types all the want). However, on PvE honestly nobody cares! its your property, your skills you making your stuff no fucks given.
So it works
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
I can't wait until those people play a different game and complain about not finding any good mats to craft high grade armor/weapons.
But the acronym MMMORPG now currently means Microscopic Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game. Kappa.