I really don't think any of these PVP players shouting from the roof in this thread actually know anything about Snail Games.
They are bringing two new mmo's out over the next 12 months. One of these mmo's is a total PVP game with PVE but it's all contested. The other mmo is the very game that the PVP players are crying in this thread why they have sperate servers.
It's not the PVE players that are throwing there toys out of the pram in this thread it's the PVP players who claim that they don't need PVE players, lol really!
I suggest you PVP players who are not happy with the server set up wait for Age Of Wushu 2.
Snail Games is not a western company so they don't need to count on Western mmo players buying they're game. Yes they want to bring the game to the western market but they are not under any pressure to change it because western PVP players are not happy about servers.
Age Of Wushu at it's peak had 18 million players. If the western PVP players don't like the server set up in Dnl then fuck.
You throw a lot of generalization around let me clear some things up for you.
There are many games out there that are strictly PvP. Palidens, Overwatch, DOTA/2, LOL, Tribes, BF, Black Ops, I could go on but I hope you get the idea. Generalization is bad.
Now on to MMORPG's which, I assume you are trying to speak about here (since quite a few of the games I mention above are covered on this site). Most PvP focused players understand (as I mentioned in a previous post) that in order to have a healthy server, you need PvE focused players.
What I think is, that the PvE focused players that are 'shouting from the rooftops' are not willing to allow that there are good (not morally bankrupt) players on both sides of the fence that are more concerned with having a healthy game than bumping chests on which style is better. You seem to be of the rabid PvE camp. Which is fine. You are wrong on a lot of points but whatever it's your opinion.
Keeping PvP players and PvE players separate is a good idea, I prefer the flag system as it generally leads to a healthier server population without disturbing people too much but whatever, either system works well enough. And lets be honest, games aren't designed to last more than a couple years now anyway, so next year we will be discussing a totally different title, most likely with all the same topics.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
If a game has separate PvP and PvE server - one thing is certain
One of them is going to be much worse than the other.
Over time one will thrive the other dwindles, and devs will eventually focus only on the one that thrives
Bottom line doing both PvE and PVP means one will fail longterm so it's failure from the start.
Do you have an example of this happening?
EQ1 - PvE servers dominate, PvP most got merged, Rift - PvP servers got merged big time, AoC PvP server is far more populated, DaoC FFA PvP servers gone
etc...
Over time in most games - the focus shifts heavily on either PvE or PvP - and the other gets pretty much neglected.
So it's assumed that the dwindling population is due to the developers? Seems like a hard thing to prove. I'm not saying it can't happen but that it may just be due to lack of interest of the players to stay. While unfortunate it's the end result of what the majority of the player base wants.
What can be said though is that it's a no lose situation, generally speaking. If the PvP servers were destined to be underpopulated that means that the majority didn't want to be in that environment so having a PvE server was a good idea, rather than mixing it. Plus those that are still on the PvP servers are obviously still enjoying it, despite a low population. They may have not played that title at all if there had only been a PvE option.
No the reason why eventually one side becomes more popular is because the underlying game design works better as either PvE or PvP game.
Fundamentally the game design is single focused, so the core game is a PvP game or a PvE game. Making a game that is equally PvE AND PvP is a recipe for disaster.
Game design theory 101
Why? Because PvE and PvP are disparate designs, so one has to be the foundation while the other becomes a lesser element
What is equally and disaster , cause many games have found success , Wow , DAoC, AC Darktide, SWG etc...
If a game has separate PvP and PvE server - one thing is certain
One of them is going to be much worse than the other.
Over time one will thrive the other dwindles, and devs will eventually focus only on the one that thrives
Bottom line doing both PvE and PVP means one will fail longterm so it's failure from the start.
Do you have an example of this happening?
EQ1 - PvE servers dominate, PvP most got merged, Rift - PvP servers got merged big time, AoC PvP server is far more populated, DaoC FFA PvP servers gone
etc...
Over time in most games - the focus shifts heavily on either PvE or PvP - and the other gets pretty much neglected.
So it's assumed that the dwindling population is due to the developers? Seems like a hard thing to prove. I'm not saying it can't happen but that it may just be due to lack of interest of the players to stay. While unfortunate it's the end result of what the majority of the player base wants.
What can be said though is that it's a no lose situation, generally speaking. If the PvP servers were destined to be underpopulated that means that the majority didn't want to be in that environment so having a PvE server was a good idea, rather than mixing it. Plus those that are still on the PvP servers are obviously still enjoying it, despite a low population. They may have not played that title at all if there had only been a PvE option.
No the reason why eventually one side becomes more popular is because the underlying game design works better as either PvE or PvP game.
Fundamentally the game design is single focused, so the core game is a PvP game or a PvE game. Making a game that is equally PvE AND PvP is a recipe for disaster.
Game design theory 101
Why? Because PvE and PvP are disparate designs, so one has to be the foundation while the other becomes a lesser element
Having a PVE world with added PVP in either arena's or battlegrounds, seems to have worked for Blizzard for over a decade. For a PVP focused game, of necessity have to accept a lower player base, Eve Online being a good example of this, and even then, Eve Online has a lot of PVE friendly activities, and while Eve Online doesn't have WoW's numbers, it has been operating successfully for over a decade.
PvP players need PvE players. PvE players do not need nor want PvP players. It is better for most of your community - the PvE side - that the PvP players go off to stay in their own little corner.
You are right, PvP players need PvE Players but PvE players dont need PvP players, which is why free for all PvP servers die a slow painful death after the PvE players leave and the PvP players are left to cannibalize each other until the server dies.
Indeed. Let's be honest, even PvPers don't like PvPers... They need to have the asshattery diluted by a decent PvE community.
I think that most players are in between. This system still leaves room for sanctioned PvP like guild wars, gives protection and or justice to the other players. But it adds that elusive "realism" of crime and instant confrontation based on reason and meaning. I know, I know, you can't see how this can be done even if you could see the benefit.
Says who? And for those in between, they can play a pve game today, and pvp game tomorrow. There is no need to do both at the same time in the same game.
And "realism" .. really? I thought the point of games is to escape realism. Otherwise why are we playing wizards and dragons instead of accountants and insurance salesman?
I think that most players are in between. This system still leaves room for sanctioned PvP like guild wars, gives protection and or justice to the other players. But it adds that elusive "realism" of crime and instant confrontation based on reason and meaning. I know, I know, you can't see how this can be done even if you could see the benefit.
Says who? And for those in between, they can play a pve game today, and pvp game tomorrow. There is no need to do both at the same time in the same game.
And "realism" .. really? I thought the point of games is to escape realism. Otherwise why are we playing wizards and dragons instead of accountants and insurance salesman?
I play EVE where some folks are accountants, bankers, salesmen etc in game.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
PvP players need PvE players. PvE players do not need nor want PvP players. It is better for most of your community - the PvE side - that the PvP players go off to stay in their own little corner.
You are right, PvP players need PvE Players but PvE players dont need PvP players, which is why free for all PvP servers die a slow painful death after the PvE players leave and the PvP players are left to cannibalize each other until the server dies.
Indeed. Let's be honest, even PvPers don't like PvPers... They need to have the asshattery diluted by a decent PvE community.
That holier than thou attitude you display right there is why PvPers tend to have a thing for beating the snot out of PvE'ers given the opportunity. You think you are on some moral high ground simply because you choose to not challenge yourself killing digital bad guys? The issue is; you take dying personally, PvPers see it as an opportunity to improve.
It isn't personal, I don't log in thinking; Hmm I wonder if @Vesavius is here so I can beat his/her toon senseless and then laugh because I know he/she hates pvp. Nope, I log in and hope to have fun with like minded people. Here is another weird fact from my personal experience; I have gotten far more help figuring out games from PvP types than I ever have PvE types. For whatever reason, the PvE high and mighty can't deign to offer a bit of advice too a new payer, but I never get that in PvP.
Lastly, I would really like to see a decetn PvE community because from what I have seen, you are all drama queens to the Nth degree. By far the most intolerant brand of gamer I have had dealings with.
Just saying, imo, and in my experience.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
PvP players need PvE players. PvE players do not need nor want PvP players. It is better for most of your community - the PvE side - that the PvP players go off to stay in their own little corner.
You are right, PvP players need PvE Players but PvE players dont need PvP players, which is why free for all PvP servers die a slow painful death after the PvE players leave and the PvP players are left to cannibalize each other until the server dies.
Indeed. Let's be honest, even PvPers don't like PvPers... They need to have the asshattery diluted by a decent PvE community.
That holier than thou attitude you display right there is why PvPers tend to have a thing for beating the snot out of PvE'ers given the opportunity.
Well, better that they aren't given the opportunity then. Who wants that kind of triggered rage fuelled type of player in their game?
If anything, you have underlined the view I have expressed.
BTW, edit, you assume I take dying personally, probably just to try and belittle me, but... I don't. I have played many PvP games over my gaming life, I even started off on a EQ PvP server at the start of my MMORPG career... I was there when Darkfall opened, I was there when WAR launched, I was there when Archeage open it's arms, and many others, and I enjoyed the gameplay in them all. Dying isn't the point. I care about community. The point is that If a play style can't support a community then I see no reason to force anothers that can into the same space in order to support them.
There was a huge thread may be a couple years ago by one very aggressive PvPer who argued among other things that without dividing PvP and PvE the world that you would create would be very complete since you will be forcing essentially even people who dislike PvP to engage in it. That this was a healthier way to make sure that the world was more diverse and not only populated by players who have similar goals.
And here in this thread we offered a solution.
The acronym MMORPG use to mean Massive Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game.
But the acronym MMMORPG now currently means Microscopic Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game. Kappa.
PvP players need PvE players. PvE players do not need nor want PvP players. It is better for most of your community - the PvE side - that the PvP players go off to stay in their own little corner.
You are right, PvP players need PvE Players but PvE players dont need PvP players, which is why free for all PvP servers die a slow painful death after the PvE players leave and the PvP players are left to cannibalize each other until the server dies.
Indeed. Let's be honest, even PvPers don't like PvPers... They need to have the asshattery diluted by a decent PvE community.
Yes there is certainly a mentality within the PVP community, I as a PVP oriented player dislike. SWG (pre-cu) was one of the few games where I did not see a prevalence of this mentality within the PVPing community. I think that had a lot to do with everyone getting the type of play-style they preferred by being able to coexist with little issue. I don't think either/any play-style was left feeling like a third wheel in that game. Even those who didn't want combat at all were served/treated well by being made to feel included (having a purpose).
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I like PVE games and PVP games. I don't see PVP-only guys running into PVE games attempting to switch the narrative of the gameplay (because they can't). I DO see PVE-only players trying to join PVP game communities and trying to ruin the ecosystem with their issues.
If PVP is so terrible and so bad and there is such a wealth of PVE-only games, why can't PVE-only players leave the issue the hell alone?
When you're in a PVE game, nobody can bother you. Yet some how, anytime there is a game that has OWPVP in it... guess who finds their way into the ecosystem to cry about "gankers" "griefers" or whatever?
Why? Why is this still a conversation? When will the eternally butthurt people who got killed while they were farming in 1998 get the Preparation H they so badly need?
"As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*"
PvP players need PvE players. PvE players do not need nor want PvP players. It is better for most of your community - the PvE side - that the PvP players go off to stay in their own little corner.
You are right, PvP players need PvE Players but PvE players dont need PvP players, which is why free for all PvP servers die a slow painful death after the PvE players leave and the PvP players are left to cannibalize each other until the server dies.
Indeed. Let's be honest, even PvPers don't like PvPers... They need to have the asshattery diluted by a decent PvE community.
Yes there is certainly a mentality within the PVP community, I as a PVP oriented player dislike. SWG (pre-cu) was one of the few games where I did not see a prevalence of this mentality within the PVPing community. I think that had a lot to do with everyone getting the type of play-style they preferred by being able to coexist with little issue. I don't think either/any play-style was left feeling like a third wheel in that game. Even those who didn't want combat at all were served/treated well by being made to feel included (having a purpose).
SWG was probably one of the better designed MMORPG. I was totally against the flag system and argued on the forums against it lol. But I think it worked. At the time I was in the ganker crowd. But at the end of the day it's a very small percentage that truly want that might makes right ganking mess.
The focused flag system is the easiest method to have inclusive PvP and PvE. I rather have systems where free for all PvP is allow but in ways only the most hardcore is actually criminal. The rest of the PvP is focused.
But at the end of the day it's a very small percentage that truly want that might makes right ganking mess.
Yea I mean like I said before if there is any reliable source with statistics or something of pvp people wanting a pvp server, pve server or a flag system. That would shed some light. But until then I will assume and thinking right off the bat that pvp people are more interested in the flag system. And assume the ganking squad is a small percentage of PvPers.
Right now as it stands more pvp people seem to prefer pve servers over pvp but thats only because most mmos seem to follow that server type formula. So theres literally one other option besides RP servers.
The acronym MMORPG use to mean Massive Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game.
But the acronym MMMORPG now currently means Microscopic Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game. Kappa.
PvP players need PvE players. PvE players do not need nor want PvP players. It is better for most of your community - the PvE side - that the PvP players go off to stay in their own little corner.
You are right, PvP players need PvE Players but PvE players dont need PvP players, which is why free for all PvP servers die a slow painful death after the PvE players leave and the PvP players are left to cannibalize each other until the server dies.
Indeed. Let's be honest, even PvPers don't like PvPers... They need to have the asshattery diluted by a decent PvE community.
That holier than thou attitude you display right there is why PvPers tend to have a thing for beating the snot out of PvE'ers given the opportunity.
Well, better that they aren't given the opportunity then. Who wants that kind of triggered rage fuelled type of player in their game?
If anything, you have underlined the view I have expressed.
BTW, edit, you assume I take dying personally, probably just to try and belittle me, but... I don't. I have played many PvP games over my gaming life, I even started off on a EQ PvP server at the start of my MMORPG career... I was there when Darkfall opened, I was there when WAR launched, I was there when Archeage open it's arms, and many others, and I enjoyed the gameplay in them all. Dying isn't the point. I care about community. The point is that If a play style can't support a community then I see no reason to force anothers that can into the same space in order to support them.
Your last sentence I agree with, and I offered no insult to you, just expressed my thoughts based of my experiences with PvE types. I made a general statement much like you did in your post saying PvP players don't even like each other, and that is not always the case. I submit that I can and do get along quite well with quite a few people that play nothing but PvP games. That is all, if you find insult there, it's on you not me.
With your triggered rage comment you have absolutely underlined the view I express. There is no rage, lol I can see why you dislike PvP if it affects you in that way.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
I like PVE games and PVP games. I don't see PVP-only guys running into PVE games attempting to switch the narrative of the gameplay (because they can't). I DO see PVE-only players trying to join PVP game communities and trying to ruin the ecosystem with their issues.
If PVP is so terrible and so bad and there is such a wealth of PVE-only games, why can't PVE-only players leave the issue the hell alone?
When you're in a PVE game, nobody can bother you. Yet some how, anytime there is a game that has OWPVP in it... guess who finds their way into the ecosystem to cry about "gankers" "griefers" or whatever?
Why? Why is this still a conversation? When will the eternally butthurt people who got killed while they were farming in 1998 get the Preparation H they so badly need?
If you are in a PvP game then the player is a PvP player so the people who are whining about the game is a PvP player.
Also if you notice the OP is complaining about a game having separate servers . So is that an example of a PvP player complaining about PvE or the fact that PvE players are getting their own servers ?
You are just assuming that the players complaining about being ganked and such are PvE players . By complaining do PvP players become de facto PvE players ?
Both PvE players and PvP players like to show that their side is more reasonable and not the one that is behaving poorly but why is it a problem always for PvP players that there is a game with separate servers when it is of no issue to a PvE players that PvP players get their own server. In fact PvE players welcome separate servers but this aspect always seems to be an issue with PvP players and they want to force the side that wants nothing to do with that play style be subjected to it. Isn't that odd .
Both PvE players and PvP players like to show that their side is more reasonable and not the one that is behaving poorly but why is it a problem always for PvP players that there is a game with separate servers when it is of no issue to a PvE players that PvP players get their own server. In fact PvE players welcome separate servers but this aspect always seems to be an issue with PvP players and they want to force the side that wants nothing to do with that play style be subjected to it. Isn't that odd .
The plan we are proposing isn't going to change a PvE'ers play style, it'll be like nothing has changed. It'll literally be like your on a pve server. The only thing thats changing is the 24/7 flag that exists on PvP servers. A flag system would make server types of PvE/PvP unnecessary.
What I notice sometimes is PvP/PvE players building a wall and telling the other type of player to pay for the wall. Why not break those boundaries.
The acronym MMORPG use to mean Massive Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game.
But the acronym MMMORPG now currently means Microscopic Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game. Kappa.
If a game has separate PvP and PvE server - one thing is certain
One of them is going to be much worse than the other.
Over time one will thrive the other dwindles, and devs will eventually focus only on the one that thrives
Bottom line doing both PvE and PVP means one will fail longterm so it's failure from the start.
Do you have an example of this happening?
EQ1 - PvE servers dominate, PvP most got merged, Rift - PvP servers got merged big time, AoC PvP server is far more populated, DaoC FFA PvP servers gone
etc...
Over time in most games - the focus shifts heavily on either PvE or PvP - and the other gets pretty much neglected.
So it's assumed that the dwindling population is due to the developers? Seems like a hard thing to prove. I'm not saying it can't happen but that it may just be due to lack of interest of the players to stay. While unfortunate it's the end result of what the majority of the player base wants.
What can be said though is that it's a no lose situation, generally speaking. If the PvP servers were destined to be underpopulated that means that the majority didn't want to be in that environment so having a PvE server was a good idea, rather than mixing it. Plus those that are still on the PvP servers are obviously still enjoying it, despite a low population. They may have not played that title at all if there had only been a PvE option.
No the reason why eventually one side becomes more popular is because the underlying game design works better as either PvE or PvP game.
Fundamentally the game design is single focused, so the core game is a PvP game or a PvE game. Making a game that is equally PvE AND PvP is a recipe for disaster.
Game design theory 101
Why? Because PvE and PvP are disparate designs, so one has to be the foundation while the other becomes a lesser element
What is equally and disaster , cause many games have found success , Wow , DAoC, AC Darktide, SWG etc...
Each one of those games has a clear focus on one or the other
WoW is clearly PvE focused game first and foremost DAoC is a PvP (RvR) focused game AC Darktide - PvP focused server, the best version of AC IMO - as it worked the best as a PvP game SWG was a PvE focused game, PvP was possible with duels and flagging via recruiter but it was not the core focus of the game
So what game has been made equally ???? If none then you have no basis of your statement , just complete guesswork ...
"Fundamentally the game design is single focused, so the core game is a
PvP game or a PvE game. Making a game that is equally PvE AND PvP is a
recipe for disaster. "
Just stop trying to be everything to everyone. That just means you will equally suck for all game types. For evidence simply look at the games of the last few years.
If a game has PvP it should be woven into all aspects of the game. It should be designed for it to be a foundation. That doesn't mean that all games should have PvP. Most probably shouldn't, but if you do incorporate PvP it can't be an "add on".
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I have been doing some thinking on this one. I already posted my feeling on this but have another reason for feeling the way I do about it. I prefer for games to only have one rule set to begin with. Either concentrate on a PVP game or a PVE game. Hell with having both in the same game. Usually when developers try the do everything approach they end up screwing up everything. They make this change for this type of play which in turn affects that type of play without meaning to. So it becomes a mess to focus on one without changing the other.
Overall if you are going to try and do both it is better to have separate server archetypes with separate coding. It would mean actually having 2 sets of code for the game, which no developer will do because of cost. That way when you make a change for this on one server type if will not affect the players on the other server type. Changing the way something plays because it is overpowered in one or the other types when it works fine in the other type has become a huge problem today.
So again it is better to focus on one core gameplay and have only that type of server if you are going to do it. And just throwing the other play group into it is not the right answer. If you are going to make a PVP based game work on the PVP game, sure it can have some other elements but don't try and say it is a PVE game also.
Flagging is fine in fact it was so in SWG but I recall that was rejected by a lot of PvP players because they felt it could be exploited and there were unhappy that they cannot attack players whenever they wanted. These solutions have been discussed to death before and there are some on both sides that will not compromise.
There is no game out there which will make everyone happy. Even people who play PvP only games have many different playstyles which is why PvP only games don't draw a lot of people. All you can do is a mix and try to satisfy the most numbers if you want a successful game. There will always players who don't like it because it's tab targeting or it doesn't have tab targeting or it levels too fast or too slowly, or the combat mechanics are too fluid or aren't fluid enough, or it's P2W/F2P/Sub or it's not, take your pick it's a long list, and that my friends is the real problem. It's not just a single element like PvP vs PvE but many that go into making a fun2play game.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Both PvE players and PvP players like to show that their side is more reasonable and not the one that is behaving poorly but why is it a problem always for PvP players that there is a game with separate servers when it is of no issue to a PvE players that PvP players get their own server. In fact PvE players welcome separate servers but this aspect always seems to be an issue with PvP players and they want to force the side that wants nothing to do with that play style be subjected to it. Isn't that odd .
The plan we are proposing isn't going to change a PvE'ers play style, it'll be like nothing has changed. It'll literally be like your on a pve server. The only thing thats changing is the 24/7 flag that exists on PvP servers. A flag system would make server types of PvE/PvP unnecessary.
What I notice sometimes is PvP/PvE players building a wall and telling the other type of player to pay for the wall. Why not break those boundaries.
Lol, you can propose your plan but it's not going to change anything about the server set up in this game. And just by saying " the plan we're proposing " shows your arrogance.
Who gave you the right to propose for PVE players? It's actually laughable reading some of the desperate posts in this thread from some PVP players.
All the crying and nappy soiling is coming from PVP players who are gutted that the Snail Games have given players an option.
I'm still waiting for someone to tell me the difference from a PVPer doing PVE on a PVP server from a PVE player doing PVE on a PVE server. It can't be the PVE so it has to be about numbers.
Fact is PVP isn't as popular in mmo's as some of you would like to think. Don't get me wrong I have nothing against PVP in fact Ive done plenty of it in my time.
Your PVP server will still cater to PVE but the only difference is it will be contested so it can only be about numbers why some of you are unhappy.
OP, lets call PVP what it is....GANKING. That's ALL that it is in OWPVP. I play BDO and have been in around 50 fights...ALL HAVE BEEN FROM GANKERS ONE HUNDRED PERCENT! That is why the two DO NOT work together. PVErs HATE IT!!!!
Its not ganking if you choose to flag yourself for PvP. This is why some of us are arguing that pvp servers seem really pointless and pve servers are just as pointless cause all it does is separate the community and hinder diversity. Mainly flag based system with some optional pvp zones that don't hinder your gear progression is the way to go. OWPvP are suppose to be a choice, imo, not something to be forced to do.
fyi, I'm a PvPer. Not all pvpers want a gank fest, thats like a thing of the past when there were bounty hunters hunting jedi etc. I prefer the flag system.
Apex, I NEVER flagged for PVP, however in BDO if you perform a quest over 49 (the only way you can advance over 50) you CAN be ganked. I understand that. But what I CANNOT understand is how it is PVP when you are fighting a group of mobs, health down, and someone ganks you in the middle of that fight! That's PURELY GUTLESS! That's the part I want removed from ALL MMOs. Either that or separate servers. They DONT WORK TOGETHER!
If a game has separate PvP and PvE server - one thing is certain
One of them is going to be much worse than the other.
Over time one will thrive the other dwindles, and devs will eventually focus only on the one that thrives
Bottom line doing both PvE and PVP means one will fail longterm so it's failure from the start.
Do you have an example of this happening?
EQ1 - PvE servers dominate, PvP most got merged, Rift - PvP servers got merged big time, AoC PvP server is far more populated, DaoC FFA PvP servers gone
etc...
Over time in most games - the focus shifts heavily on either PvE or PvP - and the other gets pretty much neglected.
So it's assumed that the dwindling population is due to the developers? Seems like a hard thing to prove. I'm not saying it can't happen but that it may just be due to lack of interest of the players to stay. While unfortunate it's the end result of what the majority of the player base wants.
What can be said though is that it's a no lose situation, generally speaking. If the PvP servers were destined to be underpopulated that means that the majority didn't want to be in that environment so having a PvE server was a good idea, rather than mixing it. Plus those that are still on the PvP servers are obviously still enjoying it, despite a low population. They may have not played that title at all if there had only been a PvE option.
No the reason why eventually one side becomes more popular is because the underlying game design works better as either PvE or PvP game.
Fundamentally the game design is single focused, so the core game is a PvP game or a PvE game. Making a game that is equally PvE AND PvP is a recipe for disaster.
Game design theory 101
Why? Because PvE and PvP are disparate designs, so one has to be the foundation while the other becomes a lesser element
What is equally and disaster , cause many games have found success , Wow , DAoC, AC Darktide, SWG etc...
Each one of those games has a clear focus on one or the other
WoW is clearly PvE focused game first and foremost DAoC is a PvP (RvR) focused game AC Darktide - PvP focused server, the best version of AC IMO - as it worked the best as a PvP game SWG was a PvE focused game, PvP was possible with duels and flagging via recruiter but it was not the core focus of the game
So what game has been made equally ???? If none then you have no basis of your statement , just complete guesswork ...
"Fundamentally the game design is single focused, so the core game is a
PvP game or a PvE game. Making a game that is equally PvE AND PvP is a
recipe for disaster. "
Apparently Game Design 101 implies you should find as narrow a player base as possible and not include others that may still enjoy your game. Not many titles have listened though, even in the face of "disaster." Luckily most game designers are too pragmatic.
The idea that one server type might become less populated due to the other having n more of the focus isn't necessarily a problem. It is still a net gain for the title so much as it's profitable and obviously the people who are there enjoy it. That was my point.
Comments
There are many games out there that are strictly PvP. Palidens, Overwatch, DOTA/2, LOL, Tribes, BF, Black Ops, I could go on but I hope you get the idea. Generalization is bad.
Now on to MMORPG's which, I assume you are trying to speak about here (since quite a few of the games I mention above are covered on this site). Most PvP focused players understand (as I mentioned in a previous post) that in order to have a healthy server, you need PvE focused players.
What I think is, that the PvE focused players that are 'shouting from the rooftops' are not willing to allow that there are good (not morally bankrupt) players on both sides of the fence that are more concerned with having a healthy game than bumping chests on which style is better. You seem to be of the rabid PvE camp. Which is fine. You are wrong on a lot of points but whatever it's your opinion.
Keeping PvP players and PvE players separate is a good idea, I prefer the flag system as it generally leads to a healthier server population without disturbing people too much but whatever, either system works well enough. And lets be honest, games aren't designed to last more than a couple years now anyway, so next year we will be discussing a totally different title, most likely with all the same topics.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
For a PVP focused game, of necessity have to accept a lower player base, Eve Online being a good example of this, and even then, Eve Online has a lot of PVE friendly activities, and while Eve Online doesn't have WoW's numbers, it has been operating successfully for over a decade.
Has there ever been a game where, with seperate PvP and PvE servers offered, the PvE has been the one to die?
Honest question, I don't know.
Indeed. Let's be honest, even PvPers don't like PvPers... They need to have the asshattery diluted by a decent PvE community.
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It isn't personal, I don't log in thinking; Hmm I wonder if @Vesavius is here so I can beat his/her toon senseless and then laugh because I know he/she hates pvp. Nope, I log in and hope to have fun with like minded people. Here is another weird fact from my personal experience; I have gotten far more help figuring out games from PvP types than I ever have PvE types. For whatever reason, the PvE high and mighty can't deign to offer a bit of advice too a new payer, but I never get that in PvP.
Lastly, I would really like to see a decetn PvE community because from what I have seen, you are all drama queens to the Nth degree. By far the most intolerant brand of gamer I have had dealings with.
Just saying, imo, and in my experience.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
Well, better that they aren't given the opportunity then. Who wants that kind of triggered rage fuelled type of player in their game?
If anything, you have underlined the view I have expressed.
BTW, edit, you assume I take dying personally, probably just to try and belittle me, but... I don't. I have played many PvP games over my gaming life, I even started off on a EQ PvP server at the start of my MMORPG career... I was there when Darkfall opened, I was there when WAR launched, I was there when Archeage open it's arms, and many others, and I enjoyed the gameplay in them all. Dying isn't the point. I care about community. The point is that If a play style can't support a community then I see no reason to force anothers that can into the same space in order to support them.
But the acronym MMMORPG now currently means Microscopic Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game. Kappa.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
If PVP is so terrible and so bad and there is such a wealth of PVE-only games, why can't PVE-only players leave the issue the hell alone?
When you're in a PVE game, nobody can bother you. Yet some how, anytime there is a game that has OWPVP in it... guess who finds their way into the ecosystem to cry about "gankers" "griefers" or whatever?
Why? Why is this still a conversation? When will the eternally butthurt people who got killed while they were farming in 1998 get the Preparation H they so badly need?
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
The focused flag system is the easiest method to have inclusive PvP and PvE. I rather have systems where free for all PvP is allow but in ways only the most hardcore is actually criminal. The rest of the PvP is focused.
Right now as it stands more pvp people seem to prefer pve servers over pvp but thats only because most mmos seem to follow that server type formula. So theres literally one other option besides RP servers.
But the acronym MMMORPG now currently means Microscopic Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game. Kappa.
With your triggered rage comment you have absolutely underlined the view I express. There is no rage, lol I can see why you dislike PvP if it affects you in that way.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
Also if you notice the OP is complaining about a game having separate servers . So is that an example of a PvP player complaining about PvE or the fact that PvE players are getting their own servers ?
You are just assuming that the players complaining about being ganked and such are PvE players . By complaining do PvP players become de facto PvE players ?
Both PvE players and PvP players like to show that their side is more reasonable and not the one that is behaving poorly but why is it a problem always for PvP players that there is a game with separate servers when it is of no issue to a PvE players that PvP players get their own server. In fact PvE players welcome separate servers but this aspect always seems to be an issue with PvP players and they want to force the side that wants nothing to do with that play style be subjected to it. Isn't that odd .
What I notice sometimes is PvP/PvE players building a wall and telling the other type of player to pay for the wall. Why not break those boundaries.
But the acronym MMMORPG now currently means Microscopic Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game. Kappa.
"Fundamentally the game design is single focused, so the core game is a PvP game or a PvE game. Making a game that is equally PvE AND PvP is a recipe for disaster. "
Just stop trying to be everything to everyone. That just means you will equally suck for all game types. For evidence simply look at the games of the last few years.
If a game has PvP it should be woven into all aspects of the game. It should be designed for it to be a foundation. That doesn't mean that all games should have PvP. Most probably shouldn't, but if you do incorporate PvP it can't be an "add on".
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Overall if you are going to try and do both it is better to have separate server archetypes with separate coding. It would mean actually having 2 sets of code for the game, which no developer will do because of cost. That way when you make a change for this on one server type if will not affect the players on the other server type. Changing the way something plays because it is overpowered in one or the other types when it works fine in the other type has become a huge problem today.
So again it is better to focus on one core gameplay and have only that type of server if you are going to do it. And just throwing the other play group into it is not the right answer. If you are going to make a PVP based game work on the PVP game, sure it can have some other elements but don't try and say it is a PVE game also.
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Lol, you can propose your plan but it's not going to change anything about the server set up in this game. And just by saying " the plan we're proposing " shows your arrogance.
Who gave you the right to propose for PVE players? It's actually laughable reading some of the desperate posts in this thread from some PVP players.
All the crying and nappy soiling is coming from PVP players who are gutted that the Snail Games have given players an option.
I'm still waiting for someone to tell me the difference from a PVPer doing PVE on a PVP server from a PVE player doing PVE on a PVE server. It can't be the PVE so it has to be about numbers.
Fact is PVP isn't as popular in mmo's as some of you would like to think. Don't get me wrong I have nothing against PVP in fact Ive done plenty of it in my time.
Your PVP server will still cater to PVE but the only difference is it will be contested so it can only be about numbers why some of you are unhappy.
You need PVE players to make up numbers.
Apex, I NEVER flagged for PVP, however in BDO if you perform a quest over 49 (the only way you can advance over 50) you CAN be ganked. I understand that. But what I CANNOT understand is how it is PVP when you are fighting a group of mobs, health down, and someone ganks you in the middle of that fight! That's PURELY GUTLESS! That's the part I want removed from ALL MMOs. Either that or separate servers. They DONT WORK TOGETHER!
Apparently Game Design 101 implies you should find as narrow a player base as possible and not include others that may still enjoy your game. Not many titles have listened though, even in the face of "disaster." Luckily most game designers are too pragmatic.
The idea that one server type might become less populated due to the other having n more of the focus isn't necessarily a problem. It is still a net gain for the title so much as it's profitable and obviously the people who are there enjoy it. That was my point.