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Star Citizen – Shattered Dreams

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  • IceAgeIceAge Member EpicPosts: 3,203
    rodarin said:
    My oh my how people have already forgotten this little gem

    https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/327124/from-bdsse-to-minimum-viable-product

    What was that maybe 6 months ago?

    Now people have been conned into thinking everything is back on track to rel;ease the greatest game ever thought of.
    What I find it even worst, is the way that mod closed the thread with that message.

    Also .. I mean really? 

    (d) Starting threads on controversial topics simply to generate an argument is forbidden.

    lol .....

    Reporter: What's behind Blizzard success, and how do you make your gamers happy?
    Blizzard Boss: Making gamers happy is not my concern, making money.. yes!

  • rodarinrodarin Member EpicPosts: 2,611
    IceAge said:
    rodarin said:
    My oh my how people have already forgotten this little gem

    https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/327124/from-bdsse-to-minimum-viable-product

    What was that maybe 6 months ago?

    Now people have been conned into thinking everything is back on track to rel;ease the greatest game ever thought of.
    What I find it even worst, is the way that mod closed the thread with that message.

    Also .. I mean really? 

    (d) Starting threads on controversial topics simply to generate an argument is forbidden.

    lol .....
    Yeah they close a thread with an OP that was an official video blog.

    Now obviously I am sure the comments got out of control but why wouldnt they?

    Its just great that those commented have never had a follow up nor does anyone even remember them. Probably their intent.  But you will surely have those cited by everyone at CiG when whatever gets released is met with the predictable reception its bound to receive. 

    I am no physic but I am willing to lay odds the phrase ''we told you in April of 2016 what to expect" will be used at some point.
  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,919
    edited December 2016
    Atlan99 said:
    gervaise1 said:
    botrytis said:
    The game has been is full developement since 2012. A game of this scope takes time... 4 years isn't much. I easily give them 2 more years for the full package. Haters, give it a rest already. Are you paid by publishing compagny affair to see a prededent in a hugely successful game made without their approuval? Seriously...
    Serious? Actually, after 4 years I expect alpha and beta tests, not just for the people who got suckered into giving them money. Sorry but when a developer keeps  changing the focus to add more stuff, they are lost and that is not a good thing. Usually companies cut out stuff that is being put into a software project not adding more. A moving end line is not a good thing as is bodes failure.

    My wife works in the software industry and has seen many big projects fail because of this exact problem. One has to start limiting or excluding things to get back on time and the project out.

    I expect, the developer here expects to keep getting money from the people donating money and to never put out a game. Maybe I am jaded but this is what seems to be going on. After all,

    https://mmos.com/editorials/most-expensive-mmorpgs-ever-developed

    The game is getting up there on the list and it is barely playable (a friend is a donator to game).
    Its an error to think that the game has been in development for 4 years. Yes the KS finished 4 years ago but at that point in time there was "no company". The support structure that exists in a major company is huge. Starting "from scratch" takes a serious chunk of time.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Citizen

    According to the Wiki page development started in 2011. So development has been at least 4 years at this point.

    Which in and of itself isn't problem. The problem is the end is nowhere in sight. 
    It can say whatever it wants. Doesn't mean it is "right". More accurately doesn't mean the word "development" that is being thrown around is being used correctly.

    Until the KS they had no real money. Basically no nothing. 

    Ask yourself how long it would take you to create legally constituted companies; in different countries - so different laws. You would get a lawyer - OK but first you have to find one of those. Find and agree rents on buildings - in different countries; to buy computers and software, desks and chairs; agree deals with other companies - not just sub-contractors but for utilities and so forth. Its just you remember until you get around to getting staff. Advertising for staff, go through the resumes you get, arrange the interviews, make offers - so agree contracts (when you have drawn those up) and salaries, have them accepted, arrange start dates, do any on-boarding. Don't forget security either. (MJ in some of the mmorpg interviews has talked about the issues - and how long it takes - of getting just a few staff on CU, making sure they are the "right" staff etc.)

    Wall of text ..... Better make sure they are the right staff of course else you will be accused of squandering backers money. And if you want to do the interviews overseas - Germany, the UK, the US don't forget that until you get some admin you will need to book the hotels and flights yourself as well. And don't forget you need to keep the backers informed - hope you don't plan on sleeping much. Especially as you will have to tell the staff you hire exactly what you want them to do otherwise you will be crucified for not planning properly. Do I need to go on? Ramble, ramble, ramble ....

    And this is just the tip of the iceberg. Its a non-trivial task in an established company that has a cocoon of support staff - of all different disciplines. From scratch its a huge task. There is a huge amount of stuff that needs to be done. And in a KS 

    Think it through. Whilst wiki says "4 years development" - 4 years since the KS finished that doesn't mean generating code or even project outlines. 

    As I have said in the past I think they "underestimated" the above (by about a year based on my experience). 
  • Turrican187Turrican187 Member UncommonPosts: 787
    gervaise1 said:
    Atlan99 said:
    gervaise1 said:
    botrytis said:
    The game has been is full developement since 2012. A game of this scope takes time... 4 years isn't much. I easily give them 2 more years for the full package. Haters, give it a rest already. Are you paid by publishing compagny affair to see a prededent in a hugely successful game made without their approuval? Seriously...
    Serious? Actually, after 4 years I expect alpha and beta tests, not just for the people who got suckered into giving them money. Sorry but when a developer keeps  changing the focus to add more stuff, they are lost and that is not a good thing. Usually companies cut out stuff that is being put into a software project not adding more. A moving end line is not a good thing as is bodes failure.

    My wife works in the software industry and has seen many big projects fail because of this exact problem. One has to start limiting or excluding things to get back on time and the project out.

    I expect, the developer here expects to keep getting money from the people donating money and to never put out a game. Maybe I am jaded but this is what seems to be going on. After all,

    https://mmos.com/editorials/most-expensive-mmorpgs-ever-developed

    The game is getting up there on the list and it is barely playable (a friend is a donator to game).
    Its an error to think that the game has been in development for 4 years. Yes the KS finished 4 years ago but at that point in time there was "no company". The support structure that exists in a major company is huge. Starting "from scratch" takes a serious chunk of time.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Citizen

    According to the Wiki page development started in 2011. So development has been at least 4 years at this point.

    Which in and of itself isn't problem. The problem is the end is nowhere in sight. 
    It can say whatever it wants. Doesn't mean it is "right". More accurately doesn't mean the word "development" that is being thrown around is being used correctly.

    Until the KS they had no real money. Basically no nothing. 

    Ask yourself how long it would take you to create legally constituted companies; in different countries - so different laws. You would get a lawyer - OK but first you have to find one of those. Find and agree rents on buildings - in different countries; to buy computers and software, desks and chairs; agree deals with other companies - not just sub-contractors but for utilities and so forth. Its just you remember until you get around to getting staff. Advertising for staff, go through the resumes you get, arrange the interviews, make offers - so agree contracts (when you have drawn those up) and salaries, have them accepted, arrange start dates, do any on-boarding. Don't forget security either. (MJ in some of the mmorpg interviews has talked about the issues - and how long it takes - of getting just a few staff on CU, making sure they are the "right" staff etc.)

    Wall of text ..... Better make sure they are the right staff of course else you will be accused of squandering backers money. And if you want to do the interviews overseas - Germany, the UK, the US don't forget that until you get some admin you will need to book the hotels and flights yourself as well. And don't forget you need to keep the backers informed - hope you don't plan on sleeping much. Especially as you will have to tell the staff you hire exactly what you want them to do otherwise you will be crucified for not planning properly. Do I need to go on? Ramble, ramble, ramble ....

    And this is just the tip of the iceberg. Its a non-trivial task in an established company that has a cocoon of support staff - of all different disciplines. From scratch its a huge task. There is a huge amount of stuff that needs to be done. And in a KS 

    Think it through. Whilst wiki says "4 years development" - 4 years since the KS finished that doesn't mean generating code or even project outlines. 

    As I have said in the past I think they "underestimated" the above (by about a year based on my experience). 
    That's fine but when they are just 2 years in full swing development and this project is bigger than GTAV you will expect a dev cycle of 8+ years - which also means that you guys have to pay the development with your founding for 6+ years to come

    When you have cake, it is not the cake that creates the most magnificent of experiences, but it is the emotions attached to it.
    The cake is a lie.

  • rpmcmurphyrpmcmurphy Member EpicPosts: 3,502
    edited December 2016
    My personal opinion is that due to the project being fully funded by the end of its Kickstarter it can be viewed officially as "go" status. People would have been working on the project in various capacities from that point forward, ergo development on Star Citizen is official.

    The fact that they increased the scope, the staff levels and all that malarky is irrelevant. None of that negates the work that was done prior..

    So 4 years official development with Roberts working on it for 5 years.

  • adamlotus75adamlotus75 Member UncommonPosts: 387
    Love it when people say that dev started 3 years ago as they had to build a company etc.

    So they just kind of sat around drinking coffee for 2 years..?
  • Turrican187Turrican187 Member UncommonPosts: 787
    Love it when people say that dev started 3 years ago as they had to build a company etc.

    So they just kind of sat around drinking coffee for 2 years..?
    Until their coffee machine broke and they needed a new one :)

    When you have cake, it is not the cake that creates the most magnificent of experiences, but it is the emotions attached to it.
    The cake is a lie.

  • Marius6870Marius6870 Member UncommonPosts: 46
    edited December 2016
    Guys, the game has been in development since 2011. Any game offering the complexity that Star Citizen is promising is at least an 6 to 8 year project. I think alot of the people like "Derek Smart" don't know anything about making an actual game, especially One like Star Citizen. Actors have already done their voice and animation work, actors like Gary Oldman and Mark Hamill. I'm pretty sure Chris didn't just pay them off to keep the scam alive, this game is actually going to happen! Now, if they were making a single player game then this thing would be out already, but an MMO is a very complicated thing and they take time to get right. Now, I would rather they take 6-8 years and publish a bug free polished game instead of No Man's Sky part 2. Be patient people!
  • KefoKefo Member EpicPosts: 4,229
    Guys, the game has been in development since 2011. Any game offering the complexity that Star Citizen is promising is at least an 6 to 8 year project. I think alot of the people like "Derek Smart" don't know anything about making an actual game, especially One like Star Citizen. Actors have already done their voice and animation work, actors like Gary Oldman and Mark Hamill. I'm pretty sure Chris didn't just pay them off to keep the scam alive, this game is actually going to happen! Now, if they were making a single player game then this thing would be out already, but an MMO is a very complicated thing and they take time to get right. Now, I would rather they take 6-8 years and publish a bug free polished game instead of No Man's Sky part 2. Be patient people!

    They are making a single player game called Squadron 42 so why isn't it out already?
  • Tiamat64Tiamat64 Member RarePosts: 1,545
    Guys, the game has been in development since 2011. Any game offering the complexity that Star Citizen is promising is at least an 6 to 8 year project. I think alot of the people like "Derek Smart" don't know anything about making an actual game, especially One like Star Citizen. 
    Did Chris Roberts ever inform people that Star Citizen is going to be a 6 to 8 year project or does he thus also fall under that "alot of people don't know anything about making an actual game, especially one like Star Citizen" category?
  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 10,328
    Kefo said:

    They are making a single player game called Squadron 42 so why isn't it out already?
    Because it is not ready yet.

    And - as stated on the forums - the vast majority of players prefer a finished, polished, bug-free game over the usual feature-castrated bugfests you get today (with a few notable exceptions like Witcher 3).


    Have fun
  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,919
    Love it when people say that dev started 3 years ago as they had to build a company etc.

    So they just kind of sat around drinking coffee for 2 years..?
    Until their coffee machine broke and they needed a new one :)
    Except they didn't have a coffee machine. No one even there to drink coffee!

    It is just as erroneous however to say "a game of this size will take 4 or 6 or 8 years". Simplistically it depends on how big the thing is, how many people are working on it and funding.

    Destiny - 2.5 years from the deal with Activision Blizzard been done. Pretty sure Bungee did some work before the $500M commitment. Wildstar 7 years after Carbine was purchased by NCSoft, 2 years before that. Which does not mean that it will be OK for SC to takes "x years". Products have to be brought to market in a timely fashion.  

    Being crowdfunded protects SC in some ways; it also forces it to work in a goldfish bowl. Under the scrutiny of everyone. Including people who - it seems - are simply hell bent on bashing it. Newsflash: you can be critical without simply being negative.

    So try not to be so dismissive of the millions of people involved in building and sustaining companies.

     
  • frostymugfrostymug Member RarePosts: 645
    Guys, the game has been in development since 2011. Any game offering the complexity that Star Citizen is promising is at least an 6 to 8 year project. I think alot of the people like "Derek Smart" don't know anything about making an actual game, especially One like Star Citizen. Actors have already done their voice and animation work, actors like Gary Oldman and Mark Hamill. I'm pretty sure Chris didn't just pay them off to keep the scam alive, this game is actually going to happen! Now, if they were making a single player game then this thing would be out already, but an MMO is a very complicated thing and they take time to get right. Now, I would rather they take 6-8 years and publish a bug free polished game instead of No Man's Sky part 2. Be patient people!
    Is it an MMO or is it not an MMO? It seemed like they were backing away from the whole MMO claim. Unless it better fits whatever the reasoning is for the latest delays. If it is an MMO we need to have another big debate on what defines an MMO because I can fit more people in my bathroom than they can get in an instance. 

    Also, if so many of you MMORPG posting commoners know that it isn't a simple 4 year project then why didn't/doesn't the exalted CR? He's the one who made the original 2014 claim. Also, claimed there was already about a years worth of work before kickstarter. The only time anything is ever addressed on that front is when the supposed date flies by with no word. Or well after the fact, like when they showed both jack and shit at their own paid dog and pony show.

    How about also stopping with the whole bullshit of what complexity/game/whatever they are promising. Even if you want to say 6-8 years dev time, ignore that he claimed that there was already a lot of work done before it was ever announced, or pretend that they are the only entity that has ever started something from scratch and account for time that the founder himself didn't, we should still be seeing substantially more of this magic and promised complexity than what we've seen so far. Every announcement or teaser looks like basically the same things in existing games. All the complex, cutting edge stuff is the parts that are not yet functional or keep getting pushed back. What fully functional, cutting edge, new gameplay or technologies have been released to the server thus far?
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member LegendaryPosts: 7,846
    edited December 2016
    frostymug said:
    Is it an MMO or is it not an MMO? It seemed like they were backing away from the whole MMO claim. Unless it better fits whatever the reasoning is for the latest delays. If it is an MMO we need to have another big debate on what defines an MMO because I can fit more people in my bathroom than they can get in an instance. 
    As it stands today: It is one MMO.

    It wasn't originally plainly called one because:
    - A Big Slice of SC was SQ42.
    - It was to have features as Private Servers / Offline Play by release.

    As SQ42 has become its own release, and the features as private servers have been put to sometime after release (if ever), then what's left for Star Citizen is indeed the online Persistent Universe, the MMO. The size of your bathroom is then rather irrelevant to the MMO, as long your bathroom is shared across all bathroom users, as Elite Dangerous.
  • DKLondDKLond Member RarePosts: 2,273
    Haha, Derek Smart still trying? ;)

    What a surprise.

    The livestream was a PR travesty, I'll grant that.

    However, meanwhile, 2.6m just got released to PTU - and the game has never shown more progress.

    I'm certainly having more fun than ever.
  • DKLondDKLond Member RarePosts: 2,273
    edited December 2016
    frostymug said:
    Guys, the game has been in development since 2011. Any game offering the complexity that Star Citizen is promising is at least an 6 to 8 year project. I think alot of the people like "Derek Smart" don't know anything about making an actual game, especially One like Star Citizen. Actors have already done their voice and animation work, actors like Gary Oldman and Mark Hamill. I'm pretty sure Chris didn't just pay them off to keep the scam alive, this game is actually going to happen! Now, if they were making a single player game then this thing would be out already, but an MMO is a very complicated thing and they take time to get right. Now, I would rather they take 6-8 years and publish a bug free polished game instead of No Man's Sky part 2. Be patient people!
    All the complex, cutting edge stuff is the parts that are not yet functional or keep getting pushed back. What fully functional, cutting edge, new gameplay or technologies have been released to the server thus far?
    Ehm, separate physics layers, completely unified FP/3P animations and player camera, procedural damage technology, zero-G and EVA FPS gameplay, 64-bit precision for coordinates, and on and on.

    Those things are incredibly hard to achieve - and they're all working right now.
  • Turrican187Turrican187 Member UncommonPosts: 787
    DKLond said:
    frostymug said:
    Guys, the game has been in development since 2011. Any game offering the complexity that Star Citizen is promising is at least an 6 to 8 year project. I think alot of the people like "Derek Smart" don't know anything about making an actual game, especially One like Star Citizen. Actors have already done their voice and animation work, actors like Gary Oldman and Mark Hamill. I'm pretty sure Chris didn't just pay them off to keep the scam alive, this game is actually going to happen! Now, if they were making a single player game then this thing would be out already, but an MMO is a very complicated thing and they take time to get right. Now, I would rather they take 6-8 years and publish a bug free polished game instead of No Man's Sky part 2. Be patient people!
    All the complex, cutting edge stuff is the parts that are not yet functional or keep getting pushed back. What fully functional, cutting edge, new gameplay or technologies have been released to the server thus far?
    Ehm, separate physics layers, completely unified FP/3P animations and player camera, procedural damage technology, zero-G and EVA FPS gameplay, 64-bit precision for coordinates, and on and on.

    Those things are incredibly hard to achieve - and they're all working right now.
    Sure and it's incredible hard for me to carve wood because I am not good at it.
    When do you bother to mention the NEW innovative stuff in list please?

    When you have cake, it is not the cake that creates the most magnificent of experiences, but it is the emotions attached to it.
    The cake is a lie.

  • ste2000ste2000 Member EpicPosts: 6,194

    You cant say you'll ever get bored in a Star Citizen thread......

  • frostymugfrostymug Member RarePosts: 645
    DKLond said:
    frostymug said:
    Guys, the game has been in development since 2011. Any game offering the complexity that Star Citizen is promising is at least an 6 to 8 year project. I think alot of the people like "Derek Smart" don't know anything about making an actual game, especially One like Star Citizen. Actors have already done their voice and animation work, actors like Gary Oldman and Mark Hamill. I'm pretty sure Chris didn't just pay them off to keep the scam alive, this game is actually going to happen! Now, if they were making a single player game then this thing would be out already, but an MMO is a very complicated thing and they take time to get right. Now, I would rather they take 6-8 years and publish a bug free polished game instead of No Man's Sky part 2. Be patient people!
    All the complex, cutting edge stuff is the parts that are not yet functional or keep getting pushed back. What fully functional, cutting edge, new gameplay or technologies have been released to the server thus far?
    Ehm, separate physics layers, completely unified FP/3P animations and player camera, procedural damage technology, zero-G and EVA FPS gameplay, 64-bit precision for coordinates, and on and on.

    Those things are incredibly hard to achieve - and they're all working right now.
    Separate physics layers are done in Unity
    Procedural damage technology in Frostbite
    64 bit precision in Unigine
    Arma has what is called true first person, which is unified FP/3P animations and camera. Has since Operation Flashpoint
    CoD: IW has zero-g and terra firma FPS gameplay


    Which ones work better is another debate, but all of those things are out there
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member LegendaryPosts: 7,846
    edited December 2016
    Maybe if you looked at the whole picture and not a single feature of it. SC is not a feature of it, yet it seems you to have to get unique features that nobody else ever done, to be one unique game?  It's not about the experience, it's not the whole of these features playing out together?
  • frostymugfrostymug Member RarePosts: 645
    Anyways, I'm glad you're enjoying the game. I have more or less given up on it at this point. 

    I think DS is a douchenozzle, but I think CR is a BSer and a dreamer who really doesn't need an excuse brigade reasoning away every screw up, of which there appear to be many. It's mostly counterproductive and the only times any major progress has been shown was after they've started to feel the heat when the insulation wears thin.
  • DKLondDKLond Member RarePosts: 2,273
    edited December 2016
    frostymug said:
    DKLond said:
    frostymug said:
    Guys, the game has been in development since 2011. Any game offering the complexity that Star Citizen is promising is at least an 6 to 8 year project. I think alot of the people like "Derek Smart" don't know anything about making an actual game, especially One like Star Citizen. Actors have already done their voice and animation work, actors like Gary Oldman and Mark Hamill. I'm pretty sure Chris didn't just pay them off to keep the scam alive, this game is actually going to happen! Now, if they were making a single player game then this thing would be out already, but an MMO is a very complicated thing and they take time to get right. Now, I would rather they take 6-8 years and publish a bug free polished game instead of No Man's Sky part 2. Be patient people!
    All the complex, cutting edge stuff is the parts that are not yet functional or keep getting pushed back. What fully functional, cutting edge, new gameplay or technologies have been released to the server thus far?
    Ehm, separate physics layers, completely unified FP/3P animations and player camera, procedural damage technology, zero-G and EVA FPS gameplay, 64-bit precision for coordinates, and on and on.

    Those things are incredibly hard to achieve - and they're all working right now.
    Separate physics layers are done in Unity
    Procedural damage technology in Frostbite
    64 bit precision in Unigine
    Arma has what is called true first person, which is unified FP/3P animations and camera. Has since Operation Flashpoint
    CoD: IW has zero-g and terra firma FPS gameplay


    Which ones work better is another debate, but all of those things are out there
    Please demonstrate how Unity has multiple gravities interacting with each other - working in a single game. Show me a game made in Unigine that has 64-bit precision for an entire universe. What procedural damage exists in Frostbite? I hope you're not talking about Battlefield, because that's not procedural damage - that's essentially scripted DYNAMIC damage, which is completely different.

    Also, mention a SINGLE other game that has all of these things working at once.

    Beyond that, you were asking for cutting edge technologies - and that's what I'm telling you Star Citizen has, right now.

    Are you saying those things are easy to achieve? If not, then why can't you acknowledge that it's impressive?
  • DKLondDKLond Member RarePosts: 2,273
    DKLond said:
    frostymug said:
    Guys, the game has been in development since 2011. Any game offering the complexity that Star Citizen is promising is at least an 6 to 8 year project. I think alot of the people like "Derek Smart" don't know anything about making an actual game, especially One like Star Citizen. Actors have already done their voice and animation work, actors like Gary Oldman and Mark Hamill. I'm pretty sure Chris didn't just pay them off to keep the scam alive, this game is actually going to happen! Now, if they were making a single player game then this thing would be out already, but an MMO is a very complicated thing and they take time to get right. Now, I would rather they take 6-8 years and publish a bug free polished game instead of No Man's Sky part 2. Be patient people!
    All the complex, cutting edge stuff is the parts that are not yet functional or keep getting pushed back. What fully functional, cutting edge, new gameplay or technologies have been released to the server thus far?
    Ehm, separate physics layers, completely unified FP/3P animations and player camera, procedural damage technology, zero-G and EVA FPS gameplay, 64-bit precision for coordinates, and on and on.

    Those things are incredibly hard to achieve - and they're all working right now.
    Sure and it's incredible hard for me to carve wood because I am not good at it.
    When do you bother to mention the NEW innovative stuff in list please?
    What other game has all these things working?

    No one has said each feature is unique and "a first". Not even CIG/CR has said that.

    So, that's a strawman.

    We're talking about complex and innovative technology - which is the way they all combine in the same game right NOW.
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member LegendaryPosts: 7,846
    edited December 2016
    DKLond said:
    Also, mention a SINGLE other game that has all of these things working at once.
    This is exactly the point!

    People who focus themselves into X or Y feature of SC to not have to look at it as its whole. What makes one unique and/or revolutionary game it's all of them together. And that indeed what SC has going for it.
  • DKLondDKLond Member RarePosts: 2,273
    edited December 2016
    MaxBacon said:
    DKLond said:
    Also, mention a SINGLE other game that has all of these things working at once.
    This is exactly the point!

    People who focus themselves into a X or Y feature of SC, to not have to look at it as a whole. What makes one unique and/or revolutionary game it's all of them together. And that indeed what SC has going for it.
    Agreed, and that's RIGHT NOW - with a lot more to come.

    Next up is 3.0 with some AMAZING procedural technology - which is pretty evident from recent videos.

    I mean, now that Star Marine is on PTU - I'm guessing procedural planet technology will be the next thing that "never will be out" ;)
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