As long as we're going to argue over correct terminology, I don't agree with that either. Battlegrounds in MMOs are places, usually instanced, where you go for time-limited PVP matches. That doesn't apply to the moors.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
As long as we're going to argue over correct terminology, I don't agree with that either. Battlegrounds in MMOs are places, usually instanced, where you go for time-limited PVP matches. That doesn't apply to the moors.
DAoC Battlegrounds?
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As long as we're going to argue over correct terminology, I don't agree with that either. Battlegrounds in MMOs are places, usually instanced, where you go for time-limited PVP matches. That doesn't apply to the moors.
DAoC Battlegrounds?
Yes, the one exception. The only 24/7 persistent one without a scoreboard I can think of.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
As long as we're going to argue over correct terminology, I don't agree with that either. Battlegrounds in MMOs are places, usually instanced, where you go for time-limited PVP matches. That doesn't apply to the moors.
DAoC Battlegrounds?
Yes, the one exception. The only 24/7 persistent one without a scoreboard I can think of.
Other than the Ettenmoors which spawned this whole silly debate anyhow... aren't they similar to DAoC battlegrounds? I think you could also make the case that places like the DAoC Frontiers,ESO's Cyrodil and GW2's WvWvW areas are just bigger Battlegrounds as they are sperated from the rest of the game.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
As long as we're going to argue over correct terminology, I don't agree with that either. Battlegrounds in MMOs are places, usually instanced, where you go for time-limited PVP matches. That doesn't apply to the moors.
DAoC Battlegrounds?
Yes, the one exception. The only 24/7 persistent one without a scoreboard I can think of.
Restuss..
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
As long as we're going to argue over correct terminology, I don't agree with that either. Battlegrounds in MMOs are places, usually instanced, where you go for time-limited PVP matches. That doesn't apply to the moors.
DAoC Battlegrounds?
Yes, the one exception. The only 24/7 persistent one without a scoreboard I can think of.
Other than the Ettenmoors which spawned this whole silly debate anyhow... aren't they similar to DAoC battlegrounds? I think you could also make the case that places like the DAoC Frontiers,ESO's Cyrodil and GW2's WvWvW areas are just bigger Battlegrounds as they are sperated from the rest of the game.
Nope. The moors is just a PVP zone amd os is Cyrodiil, etc. Calling them a BG is a stretch just like saying that having one zone like that makes LOTRO open world PVP.
You seem to be having difficulty differentiating BGs from zones. I'm not.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I think the Ettenmoors counts as having open world pvp. The defining characteristics are:
1) It is persistent - there are no win / lose conditions, new instances don't spawn. It is the same as any other normal zone within the game and is thus a part of the game world.
2) There are no restrictions on player numbers - some nights I'd go to the ettens and there would only be like 5 of us there. Other nights there would be 300. Sometimes numbers would be balanced, others there would just be a giant swarm of creeps.
3) Freeform Gameplay - nobody tells you how to play in the ettens. You can solo, group or raid. You can take the objectives or ignore them. You can gank or you can honourably duel. Hell, you can even just go there to grind some pve quests if you so choose.
The reason I think people are getting upset is simply due to the way in which LotRO prevents the game being FFA. Most games with open world pvp are not free for all and place restrictions on where / when / how you participate. SWG had the flagging system. WoW has server rulesets. WAR had PvP lakes where you were auto-flagged. Even FFA games usually have some sort of safezone.
LotRO simply chose (were forced...) to restrict their open world pvp to one (and later, 2) zones. The actual gameplay that you engage in is the same as any other open world pvp game.
Do I wish LotRO opened up more zones for pvp? Of course. Do I wish that you could level up as an evil character so that full open world pvp made sense? Of course. But, Turbine couldn't get the license to do so. They wanted to have 2 fully formed factions so that we could have a proper war over middle earth, but Saul Zaentz (the owners of the lotr IP) refused.
This right here is all you need to know about PvMP in LOTRO. Read it. Be informed.
Argue about terminology all you want (what else have we got?), but PvPers need to know that LOTRO will never be any more about PvP than it is right now. Because IP LICENSE.
As long as we're going to argue over correct terminology, I don't agree with that either. Battlegrounds in MMOs are places, usually instanced, where you go for time-limited PVP matches. That doesn't apply to the moors.
DAoC Battlegrounds?
Yes, the one exception. The only 24/7 persistent one without a scoreboard I can think of.
Other than the Ettenmoors which spawned this whole silly debate anyhow... aren't they similar to DAoC battlegrounds? I think you could also make the case that places like the DAoC Frontiers,ESO's Cyrodil and GW2's WvWvW areas are just bigger Battlegrounds as they are sperated from the rest of the game.
Nope. The moors is just a PVP zone amd os is Cyrodiil, etc. Calling them a BG is a stretch just like saying that having one zone like that makes LOTRO open world PVP.
You seem to be having difficulty differentiating BGs from zones. I'm not.
Perhaps you misunderstand what I am trying to say. I am saying that DAoC batteground and DAoC Frontier is similar. Just that the Frontier is larger. The DAoC Battleground is really the same thing. you could call it just a designated PvP zone... but it actually existed as a named battleground years before WoW's BGs and all the other E-Sport types joined in.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
As long as we're going to argue over correct terminology, I don't agree with that either. Battlegrounds in MMOs are places, usually instanced, where you go for time-limited PVP matches. That doesn't apply to the moors.
DAoC Battlegrounds?
Yes, the one exception. The only 24/7 persistent one without a scoreboard I can think of.
Other than the Ettenmoors which spawned this whole silly debate anyhow... aren't they similar to DAoC battlegrounds? I think you could also make the case that places like the DAoC Frontiers,ESO's Cyrodil and GW2's WvWvW areas are just bigger Battlegrounds as they are sperated from the rest of the game.
Nope. The moors is just a PVP zone amd os is Cyrodiil, etc. Calling them a BG is a stretch just like saying that having one zone like that makes LOTRO open world PVP.
You seem to be having difficulty differentiating BGs from zones. I'm not.
Perhaps you misunderstand what I am trying to say. I am saying that DAoC batteground and DAoC Frontier is similar. Just that the Frontier is larger. The DAoC Battleground is really the same thing. you could call it just a designated PvP zone... but it actually existed as a named battleground years before WoW's BGs and all the other E-Sport types joined in.
Yes they were similar in the same way a flea and an elephant are... they're both animals after all
DAoC BGs were nothing but a single practice keep introduce long after the bulk of the population was 50. They weren't an e-sport quickie Battleground as the term is used today in 2017.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
You're all wrong. I have no reasoning behind this, I just skimmed the thread and found that EVERYONE seems to have a strong opinion on this (though NO ONE seems to agree), so I felt left out.
instanced = multiple instances of the same zone per server open world = one instance of a zone per server ffa = no hard coded factions/realms on server
How would you categorize pvp in mmorpgs?
Talking about games where thousands of players exist simultaneously in a single instance and mechanics related to such games.
instanced = multiple instances of the same zone per server open world = one instance of a zone per server ffa = no hard coded factions/realms on server
How would you categorize pvp in mmorpgs?
Generally I refer to instanced PvP as Arena PvP.
Open World PvP is of course anything that happens in the Open World.
Now what they are calling Open World PvP I would refer to as an Open World PvP Game and define it as thus. Any game in which the primary content driver or at least debatably the primary content driver is Open World PvP is an Open World PvP Game.
For instance EVE does have some areas of relative safety aside from war decs and suicide ganks. But the economy of EVE is driven by ship/equipment loss, and the primary driver of ship/equipment loss is PvP. Similar themes are found in Darkfall and Mortal Online and due to be found in Crowfall and Life is Feudal.
As long as we're going to argue over correct terminology, I don't agree with that either. Battlegrounds in MMOs are places, usually instanced, where you go for time-limited PVP matches. That doesn't apply to the moors.
DAoC Battlegrounds?
Yes, the one exception. The only 24/7 persistent one without a scoreboard I can think of.
Other than the Ettenmoors which spawned this whole silly debate anyhow... aren't they similar to DAoC battlegrounds? I think you could also make the case that places like the DAoC Frontiers,ESO's Cyrodil and GW2's WvWvW areas are just bigger Battlegrounds as they are sperated from the rest of the game.
Nope. The moors is just a PVP zone amd os is Cyrodiil, etc. Calling them a BG is a stretch just like saying that having one zone like that makes LOTRO open world PVP.
You seem to be having difficulty differentiating BGs from zones. I'm not.
Perhaps you misunderstand what I am trying to say. I am saying that DAoC batteground and DAoC Frontier is similar. Just that the Frontier is larger. The DAoC Battleground is really the same thing. you could call it just a designated PvP zone... but it actually existed as a named battleground years before WoW's BGs and all the other E-Sport types joined in.
Yes they were similar in the same way a flea and an elephant are... they're both animals after all
DAoC BGs were nothing but a single practice keep introduce long after the bulk of the population was 50. They weren't an e-sport quickie Battleground as the term is used today in 2017.
Sorry to mini-necro this thread, but I felt the need to quote this and comment.
DAoC battlegrounds were a stroke of genius at retail when DAoC was at the height of its popularity. It essentially eased new players into the PvP of DAoC in a "mini-frontier" sort of way. It really disappoints me that the later MMORPGs did not see the value in this (specifically those that include "frontier"-esque open PvP zones of their own). The relatively small size of the zone ensured that the smaller population of leveling players in that range would find one another, specifically since the goal centered around the control of a single keep in the middle of the zone, which helped make the zones seem busier and more densely packed than they really were. It was an excellent system that's been lost to time, in my opinion.
It's not open world PVP. Open world pvp implies spontaneous pvp that can happen anywhere. That is not possible in LOTRO. If pvp can only happen in specifically designated areas, and those areas are an extreme exception to the rule, then it is decidely not open world pvp.
There's no benefit to playing the semantics game here, open world pvp was a design and a concept before MMO's became heavily instanced. Retroactively applying the 'open world' designation to very restrective zone specific pvp mechanics as simply an indicator of 'not instanced' is being deliberately dishonest, and a misuse of the term 'open world' as it applies to pvp. This is not to say open world pvp games dont have rules and barriers to protect those who dont wish to pvp, otherwise it would be FFA PVP. But when those barriers are entirely geographical and highly restrictive in that sense, the game is clearly not designed in the spirit of the term 'open world'.
I don't even know why that is a question. The answer is: NO
LOTRO is not a Open World PvP game. LOTRO has SOME (very limited) Open World PvP areas (1 to be precise)
It can't be any more simple than that.
This guy here directly called the Ettenmoors an "Open World PvP area" but says it isn't an Open World PvP game. That isn't the question being asked. He's essentially echoing my opinion. There is one of your "no" votes.
"...an instance is a special area, typically a dungeon, that generates a new copy of the location for each group, or for certain number of players, that enters the area."
How is this even a poll? It's Monsters -vs- Players [Creeps -vs- Freeps].
And finally here is a no voter that doesn't even understand the Ettenmoors has PvP.
That's 4 different people who bothered to comment and stated enough to make it clear their vote is invalid as that don't even know what they are voting on.
How many more people who voted suffer from similar ignorances? You can't tell me with any level of certainty. So if you want to go with the delusion that an informal poll is any kind of credible evidence, it's just that, a delusion. You have fun with that.
Unfortunately for you, popular opinion doesn't make something true. Democracy doesn't determine truth. The people can speak all the want. The people are ignorant. And wrong.
Just look at our current and former presidents. That's what the wisdom of the people gets you.
Unfortunately for you, popular opinion doesn't make something true. Democracy doesn't determine truth. The people can speak all the want. The people are ignorant. And wrong.
Just look at our current and former presidents. That's what the wisdom of the people gets you.
reaching reaching ... desperation ... yes we have achieved ... full Denial .... weeeeee
Any definition that greatly differs from the consistent theme you will find in nearly all of these results is a reach. No matter how many informal polls of people who haven't even necessarily even played LoTRO or been to the Ettenmoors you hold.
Unfortunately for you, popular opinion doesn't make something true. Democracy doesn't determine truth. The people can speak all the want. The people are ignorant. And wrong.
Just look at our current and former presidents. That's what the wisdom of the people gets you.
Unfortunately for you, more people voted in the poll than are in the Ettenmoors.
I thought this "discussion" ended weeks ago. If it makes you personally happy to call the Ettenmoors Open World PvP... go right ahead! Be happy! Very few here agree with you, but that's OK. As long as you are happy why do you care? Call it Green Bologna if you like... honestly. It's OK!
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Comments
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
You seem to be having difficulty differentiating BGs from zones. I'm not.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
This right here is all you need to know about PvMP in LOTRO. Read it. Be informed.
Argue about terminology all you want (what else have we got?), but PvPers need to know that LOTRO will never be any more about PvP than it is right now. Because IP LICENSE.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
DAoC BGs were nothing but a single practice keep introduce long after the bulk of the population was 50. They weren't an e-sport quickie Battleground as the term is used today in 2017.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Get at me, bros!
instanced = multiple instances of the same zone per server
open world = one instance of a zone per server
ffa = no hard coded factions/realms on server
How would you categorize pvp in mmorpgs?
Open World PvP is of course anything that happens in the Open World.
Now what they are calling Open World PvP I would refer to as an Open World PvP Game and define it as thus. Any game in which the primary content driver or at least debatably the primary content driver is Open World PvP is an Open World PvP Game.
For instance EVE does have some areas of relative safety aside from war decs and suicide ganks. But the economy of EVE is driven by ship/equipment loss, and the primary driver of ship/equipment loss is PvP. Similar themes are found in Darkfall and Mortal Online and due to be found in Crowfall and Life is Feudal.
DAoC battlegrounds were a stroke of genius at retail when DAoC was at the height of its popularity. It essentially eased new players into the PvP of DAoC in a "mini-frontier" sort of way. It really disappoints me that the later MMORPGs did not see the value in this (specifically those that include "frontier"-esque open PvP zones of their own). The relatively small size of the zone ensured that the smaller population of leveling players in that range would find one another, specifically since the goal centered around the control of a single keep in the middle of the zone, which helped make the zones seem busier and more densely packed than they really were. It was an excellent system that's been lost to time, in my opinion.
This is the danger of public polling. People don't even understand what they are being asked.
There's no benefit to playing the semantics game here, open world pvp was a design and a concept before MMO's became heavily instanced. Retroactively applying the 'open world' designation to very restrective zone specific pvp mechanics as simply an indicator of 'not instanced' is being deliberately dishonest, and a misuse of the term 'open world' as it applies to pvp. This is not to say open world pvp games dont have rules and barriers to protect those who dont wish to pvp, otherwise it would be FFA PVP. But when those barriers are entirely geographical and highly restrictive in that sense, the game is clearly not designed in the spirit of the term 'open world'.
This guy here directly called the Ettenmoors an "Open World PvP area" but says it isn't an Open World PvP game. That isn't the question being asked. He's essentially echoing my opinion. There is one of your "no" votes.
Another one of your no voters acknowledging the existence of Open World PvP zones.
Here is a yes voter that doesn't understand the Ettenmoors has PVE.
And finally here is a no voter that doesn't even understand the Ettenmoors has PvP.
That's 4 different people who bothered to comment and stated enough to make it clear their vote is invalid as that don't even know what they are voting on.
How many more people who voted suffer from similar ignorances? You can't tell me with any level of certainty. So if you want to go with the delusion that an informal poll is any kind of credible evidence, it's just that, a delusion. You have fun with that.
Just look at our current and former presidents. That's what the wisdom of the people gets you.
Define Open World PvP
Any definition that greatly differs from the consistent theme you will find in nearly all of these results is a reach. No matter how many informal polls of people who haven't even necessarily even played LoTRO or been to the Ettenmoors you hold.
I thought this "discussion" ended weeks ago. If it makes you personally happy to call the Ettenmoors Open World PvP... go right ahead! Be happy! Very few here agree with you, but that's OK. As long as you are happy why do you care? Call it Green Bologna if you like... honestly. It's OK!
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018