Why are so many MMO games filled with toxic players ?

slygamer1979

Lately i've gotten back into ESO on PS4 and this return was to play the new expansion and i've been playing for a few weeks now.
I've made some new friends joined some guilds but noticed most of these people are more casual players which is fine with me i get bored and play other games.  

I've also noticed the more hardcore players that are just randoms and these are the people i worry about when doing dungeons of any sort. and the reason behind this is when i see players that are CP 630 i can tell they are powerful players but also most of them tend to be pricks to anyone lower CP to them. 9 out of 10 times in vet dungeons they will complain that you are not good enough to run with them and they will vote to kick you sometimes by the time you load into the dungeon they have already voted to kick you. this ends up making you wait 10+ minutes before you get to que again. 

I got kicked out of two pledge runs in the same day by three CP630 players before we even got started fighting.
i'm CP281 and i know most dungeons and i'm constantly working on improving my gear and stats and i do run with guildies when some are online but not all the time so i'm kind of at the mercy of playing with more random people.

I guess when people play long enough to reach CP630 they get a change of attitude towards lower players and all.
as for being a lower cp player some of us have major issues with being treated this way seeing how not all of us have the time others do to get to CP630 and do trials and all and i for one don't wanna spend my time being kicked from groups and to wait awhile to re-que up.  

I've also now started worrying more about being kicked out of dungeons then actually completing the dungeons which i think is just frigging sad.

does anyone else have a gripe about these kinds of things in MMO games ?

Dibdabs

They're immature people (mentally, not physically) who have no lives except for their gaming lives.  In the real world they're No-one, but in their gaming world they're Someone.  They do the petty, spiteful things to people in online games that others do to them in real life.  They're nobody you'd want to be friends with in real life!

cameltosis

There will always be dicks and nice people in all MMOs, just as their are dicks and nice people in all walks of life. 

The trick is in designing a game that encourages the nice people and discourages the dicks. With your ESO example specifically, this is a perfect example of bad game design encouraging bad behaviour. 

The vertical progression (CP) creates barriers between players. The higher the CP, the easier the content and the quicker the player can get their rewards. A higher CP player is thus encouraged by the game mechanics to seek out similarly high CP players and remove lower CP players. The situation in ESO is further compounded by the simplistic combat system that doesn't require much skill, so gear scores count for even more than usual. Finally, the mega-server technology also means that the dickhead is unlikely to ever feel any sort of social fallout from their bad behaviour. 


Now, I'm not encouraging that sort of behaviour at all, I find it despicable myself as I am a very social-orientated gamer. However, it is an inevitable outcome of the game's design, something the developers should have foreseen as, you know, it happens in every single MMO with similar mechanics. 


Also, @Dibdabs, it's nothing to do with immaturity or their real world social status. For some of them that may be true, but I've seen and met people from all walks of life and all social status's who behave like dicks in games. I've also had it happen the other way round - people who were awesome in game but turned out to be dicks in real life. There is no universal rule that determines who will be nice and who will be horrible. 

Flyte27

I feel the opposite.  Such players are entertaining to watch.  When people are nice and respectful to each other it actually detracts from the game.  This is seen in many modern MMOs.  The whole point of these games is conflict and fighting generally yet everyone should be nice to each other.  I am kind of sad that people can't enjoy the age old traditions of backstabbing and thieving in games anymore.  You can't do it in real life so might as well enjoy it in games where it is just pretending.

In terms of the players that play a lot and are mean, I think it's probably due to the fact that they play so much they are tired and possibly in some form of discomfort or pain.  It's certainly more of a logical way to look at it than just saying they have no life.  That is just as rude or mean if you really care about that kind of thing.

Quizzical

Because they're online and in some ways competitive.

Hatefull

Flyte27 said:

I feel the opposite.  Such players are entertaining to watch.  When people are nice and respectful to each other it actually detracts from the game.  This is seen in many modern MMOs.  The whole point of these games is conflict and fighting generally yet everyone should be nice to each other.  I am kind of sad that people can't enjoy the age old traditions of backstabbing and thieving in games anymore.  You can't do it in real life so might as well enjoy it in games where it is just pretending.

In terms of the players that play a lot and are mean, I think it's probably due to the fact that they play so much they are tired and possibly in some form of discomfort or pain.  It's certainly more of a logical way to look at it than just saying they have no life.  That is just as rude or mean if you really care about that kind of thing.

I have been on both sides of this coin. I remember when I first started gaming, I was hyper-competitive, talked a lot of smack, most of it wildly inappropriate (original members of these boards will remember how distasteful I was constantly back then) and was generally a crap player and person, online. Sadly I was in my 30's when I discovered online games.

So I went through that, then I started to realize as I grew up a bit, that games weren't fun and it was my fault they weren't fun to me. So I slowly started changing my attitude and the manner in which I interacted with people. I still have a regression at times, I can only handle so much complete idiocy before I say something, usually inappropriate, but I understand now at least that I am no better or worse than anyone else, and my self-esteem and happiness are not in fact tied to a game...or forum. So when others disagree with me, I do not take it personally like I used to. I believe this is called maturing.

This change also coincided with my joining a major raiding guild, a habit I formed in a couple games, where I saw real progression, character development, and really achieved a level of competence in gaming, specifically as a tank. Then I noticed the gear elitism, and I was bounced from a guild for taking a stance against it. 

My point was; it does not matter how long you have been playing, nor how great your gear is, it is not a license to treat people like shit. Games need new player to keep them healthy, guilds need new players to keep the raid roster healthy. Usually.

I caveat this with, if a new player is willing to learn, then as an experienced player, you should be willing to teach. I understand that there is just some content you need to work your way into (which sounds like the OPs case, just being honest) but it's not hard to just let the under geared player know: hey man you can't do this, we have to replace you. I have had to do this, and while not fun for either side, it's also not fun wiping constantly because one member of the group simply can not pull their weight.

So, while I understand your point, being a complete asshole in a game simply because you can, is far ruder and mean than assuming the people that do so, have no life. If you do not want to be considered a lifeless basement dwelling neck beard, then I suggest you don't be an asshole.

Pretty simple.

Flyte27

I have been on both sides of this coin. I remember when I first started gaming, I was hyper-competitive, talked a lot of smack, most of it wildly inappropriate (original members of these boards will remember how distasteful I was constantly back then) and was generally a crap player and person, online. Sadly I was in my 30's when I discovered online games.

So I went through that, then I started to realize as I grew up a bit, that games weren't fun and it was my fault they weren't fun to me. So I slowly started changing my attitude and the manner in which I interacted with people. I still have a regression at times, I can only handle so much complete idiocy before I say something, usually inappropriate, but I understand now at least that I am no better or worse than anyone else, and my self-esteem and happiness are not in fact tied to a game...or forum. So when others disagree with me, I do not take it personally like I used to. I believe this is called maturing.

This change also coincided with my joining a major raiding guild, a habit I formed in a couple games, where I saw real progression, character development, and really achieved a level of competence in gaming, specifically as a tank. Then I noticed the gear elitism, and I was bounced from a guild for taking a stance against it. 

My point was; it does not matter how long you have been playing, nor how great your gear is, it is not a license to treat people like shit. Games need new player to keep them healthy, guilds need new players to keep the raid roster healthy. Usually.

I caveat this with, if a new player is willing to learn, then as an experienced player, you should be willing to teach. I understand that there is just some content you need to work your way into (which sounds like the OPs case, just being honest) but it's not hard to just let the under geared player know: hey man you can't do this, we have to replace you. I have had to do this, and while not fun for either side, it's also not fun wiping constantly because one member of the group simply can not pull their weight.

So, while I understand your point, being a complete asshole in a game simply because you can, is far ruder and mean than assuming the people that do so, have no life. If you do not want to be considered a lifeless basement dwelling neck beard, then I suggest you don't be an asshole.

Pretty simple.

I don't entirely agree with that.  People have different philosophies on life.  There is no right or wrong way IMO like people attempt to push now in society.  There is one way that is destructive, one way that is neutral, and one way that is creative.  Most of the fantasy adventures I watched as a kid were with the hero having many destructive qualities.  It just so happened that the villain was far worse.  Let's just remember that all life is born of destruction.  For instance, life as we know it is born of stars going super nova.  Obviously, it is healthier for the human body to live in a measure of harmony, but destruction can be a lot of fun and have unseen benefits in the long run.  It all depends on how you want to live.  I have no doubt that this current trend of empathy focus with be discarded for a while in future generations.  The current generation likes it, but if history is any example then things will change back to a more destructive attitude at some point.  This may be the result of simply the kids wanting to be different than their parents and feel they are right in what they are doing.

Sovrath

DMKano said:

Dibdabs said:

They're immature people (mentally, not physically) who have no lives except for their gaming lives.  In the real world they're No-one, but in their gaming world they're Someone.  They do the petty, spiteful things to people in online games that others do to them in real life.  They're nobody you'd want to be friends with in real life!

Ah yes - lets stereotype and put everyone into a nice little package we can label.

I game with RL friends who are the core of a guild Ive been in for the last 17 years.

We are a competitive guild that plays a lot of PvP games, and we talk smack and cause hell for players in games at times.

The hardest griefer in our guild is a double PhD in physics and molecular biology, also one of the genuinely nicest down to earth people I know, who goes and gives food and cooks for homeless downtown on weekends.

people do stuff in games because they CAN, thats it. 

So what you're saying is he's actually a scummy person when he can get away with it but when he can actually be called on it he's all pinnacle of the community?

People do scummy things/are toxic because they are scummy and toxic. There are soooo many people who don't harass others, who aren't toxic because "that's who they are".

That guy just hides behind his little mask and let's his true self out because there's no one to stop him. I'd buy the "good guy" image if he actually acted like a good guy when it would be so easy to act "like a bad guy".

I think history is filled with people who act all "great" only to discover that they have a completely different side when no one is looking. 

Avanah

Anonymity breeds Animosity breeds Toxicity.

nerovergil

humans are toxic?

SEANMCAD

nerovergil said:

humans are toxic?

absolutely 

Flyte27

SEANMCAD said:

nerovergil said:

humans are toxic?

absolutely 

Actually, humans are not toxic.  They are made that way by society.  This is not always a bad thing.  For instance, we have a major overpopulation problem that is growing and not enough food.  If people cared less about each other than more people would be dead.  There might even be wars where people are killed off enough to get the population growth under control.  Sure it will cause a lot of sadness and PTSD, but it will also have benefits.  The human race will still survive.  Wars have actually lead to the creation of technology. 

Personally, I would prefer to live like the Indians as I believe that had a fairly good balance with nature.  Unfortunately, I've been indoctrinated into the masculine culture and don't feel I can ever completely get rid of that.  It is a way of life I used to survive as a younger person and was encouraged to do.

Things always change and people will not always feel that femininity is the best path.  That is just a current trend.  It makes sense as it is really about self-healing instead of the perception that it is about helping other people.  It is actually in many ways selfish IMO in the sense that you are doing it to feel better about yourself and for self-empowerment.

SEANMCAD

Flyte27 said:

SEANMCAD said:

nerovergil said:

humans are toxic?

absolutely 

Actually, humans are not toxic.  They are made that way by society.  This is not always a bad thing.  For instance, we have a major overpopulation problem that is growing and not enough food.  If people cared less about each other than more people would be dead.  There might even be wars where people are killed off enough to get the population growth under control.  Sure it will cause a lot of sadness and PTSD, but it will also have benefits.  The human race will still survive.  Wars have actually lead to the creation of technology. 

Personally, I would prefer to live like the Indians as I believe that had a fairly good balance with nature.  Unfortunately, I've been indoctrinated into the masculine culture and don't feel I can ever completely get rid of that.  It is a way of life I used to survive as a younger person and was encouraged to do.

Things always change and people will not always feel that femininity is the best path.  That is just a current trend.  It makes sense as it is really about self-healing instead of the perception that it is about helping other people.  It is actually in many ways selfish IMO in the sense that you are doing it to feel better about yourself and for self-empowerment.

the position greatly depends on your so called 'view' on global warming. I say 'view' because global warming is not really an opinion but never the less here we are

Brald_Ironheart

Not all humans are toxic, but the world is full of toxic people.  Level of maturity is a factor, but the nature of the internet itself is a major factor.  Being cruel and mean is a lot easier when I can be anonymous or when there will be little to no consequence for my behavior.  It's much easier to be a prick when I don't have to look someone in the eye or be in the same room with them.  Even easier when people don't know who I am or where I live.

But none of us are perfect and we all make mistakes.  We've all done or said things we shouldn't have.  The major problem is when we see bad behavior as acceptable or just don't care.

If people were actually role-playing villains in a game where everyone else was role-playing, it could make the game more fun.  But when people act like jerks for no reason or just because they can, it usually makes the game less fun.

Game design can indeed encourage people to act like elitist pricks.  Just the fact that there are higher levels and better gear at higher levels automatically creates a false sense of superiority in a lot of people.

Sovrath

Brald_Ironheart said:

Game design can indeed encourage people to act like elitist pricks.  Just the fact that there are higher levels and better gear at higher levels automatically creates a false sense of superiority in a lot of people.

Well, the sad thing is that some people tie their self worth to their in game achievements.

Iselin

I don't know about the PS4 community nor do I know you or how you play but on the ESO NA PC server I've been at max CP for quite a while.

The kind of instant kick for no good reason you're talking about is very rare and I've never voted to kick in those rare instances when someone starts that kind of a vote.

What I do see quite often is people getting kicked who queue as healer or tank to get in a group faster under false pretenses when they're really DPS and can't hold aggro or heal worth crap, and then only when it's one of the rare dungeons that can't just be DPSed easily with little need of tanks or healers.

I also roll a lot of alts and queue for random PUGs at level 10 and have yet to be kicked from any group for being too low.

So either the PS4 community is much more toxic than the PC NA one or there's some other reason why you get kicked as often as you say you do.

Hariken

Sovrath said:

DMKano said:

Dibdabs said:

They're immature people (mentally, not physically) who have no lives except for their gaming lives.  In the real world they're No-one, but in their gaming world they're Someone.  They do the petty, spiteful things to people in online games that others do to them in real life.  They're nobody you'd want to be friends with in real life!

Ah yes - lets stereotype and put everyone into a nice little package we can label.

I game with RL friends who are the core of a guild Ive been in for the last 17 years.

We are a competitive guild that plays a lot of PvP games, and we talk smack and cause hell for players in games at times.

The hardest griefer in our guild is a double PhD in physics and molecular biology, also one of the genuinely nicest down to earth people I know, who goes and gives food and cooks for homeless downtown on weekends.

people do stuff in games because they CAN, thats it. 

So what you're saying is he's actually a scummy person when he can get away with it but when he can actually be called on it he's all pinnacle of the community?

People do scummy things/are toxic because they are scummy and toxic. There are soooo many people who don't harass others, who aren't toxic because "that's who they are".

That guy just hides behind his little mask and let's his true self out because there's no one to stop him. I'd buy the "good guy" image if he actually acted like a good guy when it would be so easy to act "like a bad guy".

I think history is filled with people who act all "great" only to discover that they have a completely different side when no one is looking. 

The guys is a pillar of the community but becomes a complete ass in online games. That has to be the funnest reply i've ever read. Maybe he so sick of being the nice guy in RL so he lets loss in games. But it means he hates his RL.

Flyte27

Sovrath said:

Brald_Ironheart said:

Game design can indeed encourage people to act like elitist pricks.  Just the fact that there are higher levels and better gear at higher levels automatically creates a false sense of superiority in a lot of people.

Well, the sad thing is that some people tie their self worth to their in game achievements.

The same thing could be said of real life.  They tie their worth to the achievements people bestow upon them instead of doing a task because they feel it needs to be done.  Many tasks we perform in real life are actually applauded depending on what society currently deems important but actually isn't really important.  For instance being able to cook things in a way that our bodies can best absorb the nutrients is an achievement IMO.  Someone who doesn't take care of themselves, but tries to help others will likely get achievements in this day and age.  To me, you can't help others nearly as much as you can help yourself as you able to receive messages from your body, but you have no idea what others are feeling.  That is why I never understand people when they say things like this.  Anything can be an achievement to someone and there is really nothing wrong with a person feeling that a video game is an achievement for them.  In reality, people should be less focused on achievements to make themselves feel good and just do something because they feel it is important to them.  The whole ideology of the modern age is that people should not force things on others and yet they force things like being nice, polite, or empathetic on others.  To me, these are all just a different means of controlling people.

Brald_Ironheart

@slygamer1979 - This is a fact of life in games with public queues for instances plus gear scores.  There's no incentive for people to help others that are less powerful than them.  There's a much greater incentive for them get the most powerful people in their party as they can so that they can complete the dungeon and get their reward as quickly and as easily as possible. 

It's not always fun to play with strangers that are more experienced or more powerful than you are.  They are not always patient or understanding.

Sovrath

DMKano said:

Sovrath said:

DMKano said:

Dibdabs said:

They're immature people (mentally, not physically) who have no lives except for their gaming lives.  In the real world they're No-one, but in their gaming world they're Someone.  They do the petty, spiteful things to people in online games that others do to them in real life.  They're nobody you'd want to be friends with in real life!

Ah yes - lets stereotype and put everyone into a nice little package we can label.

I game with RL friends who are the core of a guild Ive been in for the last 17 years.

We are a competitive guild that plays a lot of PvP games, and we talk smack and cause hell for players in games at times.

The hardest griefer in our guild is a double PhD in physics and molecular biology, also one of the genuinely nicest down to earth people I know, who goes and gives food and cooks for homeless downtown on weekends.

people do stuff in games because they CAN, thats it. 

So what you're saying is he's actually a scummy person when he can get away with it but when he can actually be called on it he's all pinnacle of the community?

People do scummy things/are toxic because they are scummy and toxic. There are soooo many people who don't harass others, who aren't toxic because "that's who they are".

That guy just hides behind his little mask and let's his true self out because there's no one to stop him. I'd buy the "good guy" image if he actually acted like a good guy when it would be so easy to act "like a bad guy".

I think history is filled with people who act all "great" only to discover that they have a completely different side when no one is looking. 





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cant fix the shit fornatting on mobile sorry







you are simply mistaken here. You are in this case applying "one size fits all' reasoning.

there are nice players in game who are real shits in reality.

and vice versa

why?

some act very differentlt online and know that online behavior is unnacceptable in RL

No worries about the formatting this site sucks with that.

It's not a one size fits all argument. One is either a nice person or not or  the case of your friend, "maybe" he's a nice person in day to day life but his actions show he's not a nice person online (given the limited info you've offered)

What does that actually say about him? Or anyone who acts like that for that matter? 

It comes across as justifying behavior. I don't know of any genuinely "nice/good" people who act any differently in any aspect of their life. Because they are "nice/good" people.

But people who show different faces depending on circumstance? Come on, who is really going to buy that he is "really a nice person just has different faces for different venues".

Now I don't care if he or anyone griefs other people if the game is a game that supports that. I've always been a believer in knowing what you sign up for and owning that/owning your decision to play.

But I'm also a big believer in owning your actions. If one is an ass then one is an ass. Admit it. Don't go saying "well, I'm only an ass when I drink a lot or if it's the anniversary of my divorce but every other day I'm an angel.

Brald_Ironheart

@Flyte27 - There are other ways to solve the supposed overpopulation problem than a mass culling of the human race. 

Also, achievement in a game can be a measure of intelligence and skill, but that isn't always the case in mmorpgs.  Yes, there are many things people might consider an achievement that others might not.  However, if something does not contribute to the survival of myself, my family, or my community in any way, I can usually consider that to be a less meaningful activity.  Playing games might help with my mental or emotional survival in this world, but there's not much benefit to that if I never interact with the real world because I'm always playing games.

EDIT:  Unless that benefit is simply keeping me from doing something which may harm myself, my family, or my society.  Still that wouldn't be saying anything good about me or my character.

maskedweasel

It all boils down to poor social habits.  That's what it is.  People that just have no idea  what is appropriate,  what is humor,  what is acceptable.  They mimic what they see and hear from other gamers or what they see on imgur or reddit and think that it's acceptable to spout off that way.

A big part of it is also that there are no consequences. The anonymity helps with that.  

I'm not talking about talking crap to someone that attacked you in game, though that is certainly part of it.  I'm talking about the racial, homophobic, etc. speak that seems to permeate every place online. 

I see it all too often and it's only gotten worse now than it was 10 years ago.  

As I said, with no consequences people are free to act however they want, and it makes them feel important that they get attention that way.  When you take away the ability for them to emotionally profit from treating others poorly, it's probably the best lesson they could learn.

Sovrath

Flyte27 said:

Sovrath said:

Brald_Ironheart said:

Game design can indeed encourage people to act like elitist pricks.  Just the fact that there are higher levels and better gear at higher levels automatically creates a false sense of superiority in a lot of people.

Well, the sad thing is that some people tie their self worth to their in game achievements.

The same thing could be said of real life.  They tie their worth to the achievements people bestow upon them instead of doing a task because they feel it needs to be done.  Many tasks we perform in real life are actually applauded depending on what society currently deems important but actually isn't really important.  For instance being able to cook things in a way that our bodies can best absorb the nutrients is an achievement IMO.  Someone who doesn't take care of themselves, but tries to help others will likely get achievements in this day and age.  To me, you can't help others nearly as much as you can help yourself as you able to receive messages from your body, but you have no idea what others are feeling.  That is why I never understand people when they say things like this.  Anything can be an achievement to someone and there is really nothing wrong with a person feeling that a video game is an achievement for them.  In reality, people should be less focused on achievements to make themselves feel good and just do something because they feel it is important to them.  The whole ideology of the modern age is that people should not force things on others and yet they force things like being nice, polite, or empathetic on others.  To me, these are all just a different means of controlling people.

I agree with you. I do think that if people find value in a variety of achievements then "good for them". But that they define their very worth from such things, or lack thereof if they "don't achieve" a certain thing, then that's an issue.

btdt

To the OP:

Simple solution... find real life friends to game with.  Guilds used to be a place to find like-minded individuals but they have all but been killed by the solo auto-queue instant gratification nature of the game.  

If you don't have an active guild or real life friends to play with, you get to deal with the cesspool that is online dating err gaming.  

And to be honest, PUGs were always toxic... that has never changed.  People don't remember them as being toxic because, in most cases, they ran predominantly with guildies.  People sought out guilds to join, because without them, they would be stuck searching for PUGs all the time.

Eronakis

I would conclude that most MMORPG players are not passionate about the genre nor understand the community aspect of it. In other words, they're "not true mmorpg gamers". This was partly due to the influx of players that WoW brought into the genre and the accessible game that WoW is. 

Sure, there were asshats and elitist in old school mmorpgs but as a WHOLE the communities of MMORPG's to my knowledge were not as toxic as communities we see today. Not saying all new school mmo players are toxic but a good portion of them are unfortunately.

We have to remember that the genre was founded on D&D and single RPG players who were looking for an innovative approach to gameplay which involved a massive world with a massive community, hence the acronym, MMORPG. 

I think players who have a passion for the RPG elements and gameplay respect the genre more and thus have a better understanding of community. I am not touting that old school mmo players are saints, far from it, but with my personal experience, the communities now and then are different.

My conclusion is lack of respect for the community aspect of the genre. One can argue solo gameplay is another deterrent for a toxic community or at least promotes it. I personally feel that a 60/40 ratio of group to solo gameplay would help wean out the toxic players. Having a server reputation is a means of negation for that. It helped in Everquest.

SEANMCAD

btdt said:

To the OP:

Simple solution... find real life friends to game with.  Guilds used to be a place to find like-minded individuals but they have all but been killed by the solo auto-queue instant gratification nature of the game.  

If you don't have an active guild or real life friends to play with, you get to deal with the cesspool that is online dating err gaming.  

And to be honest, PUGs were always toxic... that has never changed.  People don't remember them as being toxic because, in most cases, they ran predominantly with guildies.  People sought out guilds to join, because without them, they would be stuck searching for PUGs all the time.

exactly.