Topic. Which MMO do you think most enabled griefing / catered to griefers by design, and why? This has more to do with the game mechanics over bad support. It can be a MMO that's currently open or one that's shut down.
For myself, I would say when bridge blocking farm carts in ArcheAge became an allowed thing and Trion claimed it to be "emergent gameplay" definitely became griefers paradise. After they disallowed it of course, I and many other players had already quit that shit....
Nm you two just aren't worth it anymore. If you don't get why doing an activity to deliberately iritate and grief someone isn't griefing then no one can help you.
Post edited by VengeSunsoar on
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
No, you engage them because there are no reprecussions like in Real Life, it is your online Safe Space to act out, those are your 'reasons.' If you are an a$$hole in RL you will lose friends, jobs or get punched into tomorrow. Here you can do whatever you want, its actually a powerful motivation, very cowardly too but a motivation nevertheless.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
Most people can actually tell the difference between reality and fantasy, realizing that it is just a game.
On the other hand, one could actually doubt your ability to tell the difference when you are taking it so seriously that you are linking in-game behavior to real life behavior.
Well, when you're acting like an a$$hole you are acting like an a$$hole, it doesn't matter where you do it. There are no special circumstances where that is ok.
The only fallacy here is you trying to make a distinction and coming up with lame excuses to make your behaviour acceptable while in reality you are just being that, an a$$hole, the internet is just the place you chose to be one.
And why that gets to me? You're trying to make online bullying ok with cowardly reasons like 'the game allows it.' Because that is what grieving is in this case, online bullying, this had nothing to do with PVPing and can happen in a PVE setting too.
Now, LOL your frigging way out of this one, I bet you STILL can't see the difference. And that's ok, you'll be an ass online, I'll be a nice guy. We'll never meet in those many high quality OWPVP games you spend your time in... Ohh wait...
/Cheers, Lahnmir
I'm going to draw this in crayon so it will be on a level you understand.
Killing other players in a PvP game is not griefing. It is the intended player interaction.
Killing other player in a PvP game is not being a "a$$hole." It is the intended player interaction.
Are you seriously this dense? Do you have ANY idea what people are discussing in this thread? You're like a child wandering into the middle of a conversation you know nothing about.
STFU Donny.
Are you mentally disabled?
I've explained this as simply as I can and you still can't comprehend it. This is exactly what the conversation was about, as I've shown repeatedly to you clowns. The entire quote chain is about killing people, and justification for it. Go back to page 9. Read it again.
Still the same fallacy....
You are trying to find particular motives and purposes where
there are actually none. You feel like to engage the guy in your sight?
Go ahead...all just because you can, no conditions, no goals, no
purpose.
Most MMOs have their PVP somehow structured - particular zone,
flags, instances, objectives w/e, this is not the case tho, provided
environment is non-consensual PVP.
You engage people because you can engage them, no particular reason or motive is required.
This is what is being responded to in the quoted thread. It's about the intent and purpose of the game. Your side is playing amateur psychologist looking for deeper meaning in PvP. Our side is saying that PvP is its own meaning and that if an enemy player is attackable, you're justified in doing so by the design of the game.
If you do something the developers intend as part of the game's design, it can not be considered griefing.
Example: In Blade & Soul spawn/corpse camping was completely normal and everyone did it. The developers intended it to be that way, but since they weren't morons they gave players an out. You could surrender and respawn without your PvP outfit on to get out of combat. As long as you kept your outfit on it was perfectly acceptable to spawn camp, or even repeatedly force rez and kill you.
Whether the developers intended it or not it can still be griefing.
Griefing is about the players actions and intent. Not the developers.
Yes the developer's intent matters.
If I'm playing Splatoon and I'm trying to draw smiley faces, it is not griefing for the other players to paint over my smiley faces. It may be annoying to me that they won't let me play the game the way I want, but it is the intent of the devs to play the game that way.
Griefing isn't simply doing something that's annoying. That would make it entirely subjective since what one person finds annoying another might find funny.
No, you engage them because there are no reprecussions like in Real Life, it is your online Safe Space to act out, those are your 'reasons.' If you are an a$$hole in RL you will lose friends, jobs or get punched into tomorrow. Here you can do whatever you want, its actually a powerful motivation, very cowardly too but a motivation nevertheless.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
Most people can actually tell the difference between reality and fantasy, realizing that it is just a game.
On the other hand, one could actually doubt your ability to tell the difference when you are taking it so seriously that you are linking in-game behavior to real life behavior.
Well, when you're acting like an a$$hole you are acting like an a$$hole, it doesn't matter where you do it. There are no special circumstances where that is ok.
The only fallacy here is you trying to make a distinction and coming up with lame excuses to make your behaviour acceptable while in reality you are just being that, an a$$hole, the internet is just the place you chose to be one.
And why that gets to me? You're trying to make online bullying ok with cowardly reasons like 'the game allows it.' Because that is what grieving is in this case, online bullying, this had nothing to do with PVPing and can happen in a PVE setting too.
Now, LOL your frigging way out of this one, I bet you STILL can't see the difference. And that's ok, you'll be an ass online, I'll be a nice guy. We'll never meet in those many high quality OWPVP games you spend your time in... Ohh wait...
/Cheers, Lahnmir
I'm going to draw this in crayon so it will be on a level you understand.
Killing other players in a PvP game is not griefing. It is the intended player interaction.
Killing other player in a PvP game is not being a "a$$hole." It is the intended player interaction.
Are you seriously this dense? Do you have ANY idea what people are discussing in this thread? You're like a child wandering into the middle of a conversation you know nothing about.
STFU Donny.
Are you mentally disabled?
I've explained this as simply as I can and you still can't comprehend it. This is exactly what the conversation was about, as I've shown repeatedly to you clowns. The entire quote chain is about killing people, and justification for it. Go back to page 9. Read it again.
Still the same fallacy....
You are trying to find particular motives and purposes where
there are actually none. You feel like to engage the guy in your sight?
Go ahead...all just because you can, no conditions, no goals, no
purpose.
Most MMOs have their PVP somehow structured - particular zone,
flags, instances, objectives w/e, this is not the case tho, provided
environment is non-consensual PVP.
You engage people because you can engage them, no particular reason or motive is required.
This is what is being responded to in the quoted thread. It's about the intent and purpose of the game. Your side is playing amateur psychologist looking for deeper meaning in PvP. Our side is saying that PvP is its own meaning and that if an enemy player is attackable, you're justified in doing so by the design of the game.
If you do something the developers intend as part of the game's design, it can not be considered griefing.
Example: In Blade & Soul spawn/corpse camping was completely normal and everyone did it. The developers intended it to be that way, but since they weren't morons they gave players an out. You could surrender and respawn without your PvP outfit on to get out of combat. As long as you kept your outfit on it was perfectly acceptable to spawn camp, or even repeatedly force rez and kill you.
Do you understand what intent means?
No. You're choosing to argue the same red herring that Gdemami is, and trying to act like nobody else understands it and you're superior because of it. If you're not an alternate account for Gdemami, he needs to start paying you for your services.
Either way, it doesn't make you right. It makes you sound like an idiot. Generally, attempting to support an argument made by a recurring troll user does.
If I'm playing Splatoon and I'm trying to draw smiley faces, it is not griefing for the other players to paint over my smiley faces. It may be annoying to me that they won't let me play the game the way I want, but it is the intent of the devs to play the game that way.
Let's say a kid builds a sand castle on the beach, and you just run over it and destroy it because you're a sad little bully. It's not really forbidden by any rule on the beach, but you definitely will have to face the kid's parents. In your example, it's exactly the same but you are on the Internet and can escape consequences.
Being an asshat is being an asshat. No matter the setting or rules, if you choose to be one, you are one. No ifs, no buts. And an Internet asshat doubles as a coward behind a screen.
A grierfer is a griefer no matter the setting. PvE, PvP, real life bully.
Because a game with defined rules is the same thing as real life.
No, you engage them because there are no reprecussions like in Real Life, it is your online Safe Space to act out, those are your 'reasons.' If you are an a$$hole in RL you will lose friends, jobs or get punched into tomorrow. Here you can do whatever you want, its actually a powerful motivation, very cowardly too but a motivation nevertheless.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
Most people can actually tell the difference between reality and fantasy, realizing that it is just a game.
On the other hand, one could actually doubt your ability to tell the difference when you are taking it so seriously that you are linking in-game behavior to real life behavior.
Well, when you're acting like an a$$hole you are acting like an a$$hole, it doesn't matter where you do it. There are no special circumstances where that is ok.
The only fallacy here is you trying to make a distinction and coming up with lame excuses to make your behaviour acceptable while in reality you are just being that, an a$$hole, the internet is just the place you chose to be one.
And why that gets to me? You're trying to make online bullying ok with cowardly reasons like 'the game allows it.' Because that is what grieving is in this case, online bullying, this had nothing to do with PVPing and can happen in a PVE setting too.
Now, LOL your frigging way out of this one, I bet you STILL can't see the difference. And that's ok, you'll be an ass online, I'll be a nice guy. We'll never meet in those many high quality OWPVP games you spend your time in... Ohh wait...
/Cheers, Lahnmir
I'm going to draw this in crayon so it will be on a level you understand.
Killing other players in a PvP game is not griefing. It is the intended player interaction.
Killing other player in a PvP game is not being a "a$$hole." It is the intended player interaction.
Are you seriously this dense? Do you have ANY idea what people are discussing in this thread? You're like a child wandering into the middle of a conversation you know nothing about.
STFU Donny.
Are you mentally disabled?
I've explained this as simply as I can and you still can't comprehend it. This is exactly what the conversation was about, as I've shown repeatedly to you clowns. The entire quote chain is about killing people, and justification for it. Go back to page 9. Read it again.
Still the same fallacy....
You are trying to find particular motives and purposes where
there are actually none. You feel like to engage the guy in your sight?
Go ahead...all just because you can, no conditions, no goals, no
purpose.
Most MMOs have their PVP somehow structured - particular zone,
flags, instances, objectives w/e, this is not the case tho, provided
environment is non-consensual PVP.
You engage people because you can engage them, no particular reason or motive is required.
This is what is being responded to in the quoted thread. It's about the intent and purpose of the game. Your side is playing amateur psychologist looking for deeper meaning in PvP. Our side is saying that PvP is its own meaning and that if an enemy player is attackable, you're justified in doing so by the design of the game.
If you do something the developers intend as part of the game's design, it can not be considered griefing.
Example: In Blade & Soul spawn/corpse camping was completely normal and everyone did it. The developers intended it to be that way, but since they weren't morons they gave players an out. You could surrender and respawn without your PvP outfit on to get out of combat. As long as you kept your outfit on it was perfectly acceptable to spawn camp, or even repeatedly force rez and kill you.
Do you understand what intent means?
No. You're choosing to argue the same red herring that Gdemami is, and trying to act like nobody else understands it and you're superior because of it. If you're not an alternate account for Gdemami, he needs to start paying you for your services.
Either way, it doesn't make you right. It makes you sound like an idiot. Generally, attempting to support an argument made by a recurring troll user does.
It makes you look like a moron when you don't understand basic ideas. the definition for griefing has been repeatedly linked in this thread. All of the credible sources include some form of abuse of unintended mechanics to ruin other people's experience.
If your IQ is too low to understand that, then you should just stop posting instead of griefing me with your stupidity.
If I'm playing Splatoon and I'm trying to draw smiley faces, it is not griefing for the other players to paint over my smiley faces. It may be annoying to me that they won't let me play the game the way I want, but it is the intent of the devs to play the game that way.
Let's say a kid builds a sand castle on the beach, and you just run over it and destroy it because you're a sad little bully. It's not really forbidden by any rule on the beach, but you definitely will have to face the kid's parents. In your example, it's exactly the same but you are on the Internet and can escape consequences.
Being an asshat is being an asshat. No matter the setting or rules, if you choose to be one, you are one. No ifs, no buts. And an Internet asshat doubles as a coward behind a screen.
A grierfer is a griefer no matter the setting. PvE, PvP, real life bully.
Because a game with defined rules is the same thing as real life.
You get more ridiculous with ever post.
Missing the point again.
Both real life and games allow things. In real life, you can destroy that sand castle, you won't get into jail because of it but you will have ruined that kid's day. In a game, you can kill that low level defenseless character over and over again, the game allows it, but you will have ruined the player's day.
Same thing. Same little bully doing them. Only difference is he doesn't risk a broken nose in a video game. As I said... coward.
Often times griefers in games (like certain people described above and many other griefers) and bullies in real life have problems at home. Their parents divorced, or fight all the time or the parents are shitty parents. Maybe a sister or brother died. Often the bully lives a very sad life, with sucky parents.
Or maybe the bully is in a very poor family and he wants to seem strong in real life and not appear weak, so he bullies people he is jealous of because the bully sees. He pretends his/her life is great, but it isn't actually.
Most of the time though, bullying and griefing happen because the bullies personal life is so miserable and crappy. Most of that is because at home his parents are losers or (again) divorced. Or maybe the father (or mother) is abusive.
Jealousy of course is a big one for bullying, but jealousy usually comes from being in a very poor family and the bully/griefer sees the other person has things he/she doesn't have.
Does it make it right the bully and griefer then takes his terrible life and puts it on others? No, but it isn't entirely their fault either. But it is a different perspective of why that bully (or griefer) may want to destroy someones sand castle.
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
If I'm playing Splatoon and I'm trying to draw smiley faces, it is not griefing for the other players to paint over my smiley faces. It may be annoying to me that they won't let me play the game the way I want, but it is the intent of the devs to play the game that way.
Let's say a kid builds a sand castle on the beach, and you just run over it and destroy it because you're a sad little bully. It's not really forbidden by any rule on the beach, but you definitely will have to face the kid's parents. In your example, it's exactly the same but you are on the Internet and can escape consequences.
Being an asshat is being an asshat. No matter the setting or rules, if you choose to be one, you are one. No ifs, no buts. And an Internet asshat doubles as a coward behind a screen.
A grierfer is a griefer no matter the setting. PvE, PvP, real life bully.
Because a game with defined rules is the same thing as real life.
You get more ridiculous with ever post.
Missing the point again.
Both real life and games allow things. In real life, you can destroy that sand castle, you won't get into jail because of it but you will have ruined that kid's day. In a game, you can kill that low level defenseless character over and over again, the game allows it, but you will have ruined the player's day.
Same thing. Same little bully doing them. Only difference is he doesn't risk a broken nose in a video game. As I said... coward.
No, they're not in any way the same thing. One is the real world. One is a game.
When you play a PvP game you are advertising to everyone "I'm building a sand castle. Come kick it over if you think you can." You are explicitly consenting to PvP by playing a PvP game.
If I'm playing Splatoon and I'm trying to draw smiley faces, it is not griefing for the other players to paint over my smiley faces. It may be annoying to me that they won't let me play the game the way I want, but it is the intent of the devs to play the game that way.
Let's say a kid builds a sand castle on the beach, and you just run over it and destroy it because you're a sad little bully. It's not really forbidden by any rule on the beach, but you definitely will have to face the kid's parents. In your example, it's exactly the same but you are on the Internet and can escape consequences.
Being an asshat is being an asshat. No matter the setting or rules, if you choose to be one, you are one. No ifs, no buts. And an Internet asshat doubles as a coward behind a screen.
A grierfer is a griefer no matter the setting. PvE, PvP, real life bully.
Because a game with defined rules is the same thing as real life.
You get more ridiculous with ever post.
Missing the point again.
Both real life and games allow things. In real life, you can destroy that sand castle, you won't get into jail because of it but you will have ruined that kid's day. In a game, you can kill that low level defenseless character over and over again, the game allows it, but you will have ruined the player's day.
Same thing. Same little bully doing them. Only difference is he doesn't risk a broken nose in a video game. As I said... coward.
Often times griefers in games (like certain people described above and many other griefers) and bullies in real life have problems at home. Their parents divorced, or fight all the time or the parents are shitty parents. Maybe a sister or brother died. Often the bully lives a very sad life, with sucky parents.
Or maybe the bully is in a very poor family and he wants to seem strong in real life and not appear weak, so he bullies people he is jealous of because the bully sees. He pretends his/her life is great, but it isn't actually.
Most of the time though, bullying and griefing happen because the bullies personal life is so miserable and crappy. Most of that is because at home his parents are losers or (again) divorced. Or maybe the father (or mother) is abusive.
Jealousy of course is a big one for bullying, but jealousy usually comes from being in a very poor family and the bully/griefer sees the other person has things he/she doesn't have.
Does it make it right the bully and griefer then takes his terrible life and puts it on others? No, but it isn't entirely their fault either. But it is a different perspective of why that bully (or griefer) may want to destroy someones sand castle.
And we're back to "people who inconvenience me are bad people."
It's still just as stupid and childish as it was a few pages ago.
I didn't say anything about being inconvenienced. I described why, in psychological terms, why a bully and griefer bullies and griefs others.
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
If I'm playing Splatoon and I'm trying to draw smiley faces, it is not griefing for the other players to paint over my smiley faces. It may be annoying to me that they won't let me play the game the way I want, but it is the intent of the devs to play the game that way.
Let's say a kid builds a sand castle on the beach, and you just run over it and destroy it because you're a sad little bully. It's not really forbidden by any rule on the beach, but you definitely will have to face the kid's parents. In your example, it's exactly the same but you are on the Internet and can escape consequences.
Being an asshat is being an asshat. No matter the setting or rules, if you choose to be one, you are one. No ifs, no buts. And an Internet asshat doubles as a coward behind a screen.
A grierfer is a griefer no matter the setting. PvE, PvP, real life bully.
Because a game with defined rules is the same thing as real life.
You get more ridiculous with ever post.
Missing the point again.
Both real life and games allow things. In real life, you can destroy that sand castle, you won't get into jail because of it but you will have ruined that kid's day. In a game, you can kill that low level defenseless character over and over again, the game allows it, but you will have ruined the player's day.
Same thing. Same little bully doing them. Only difference is he doesn't risk a broken nose in a video game. As I said... coward.
Often times griefers in games (like certain people described above and many other griefers) and bullies in real life have problems at home. Their parents divorced, or fight all the time or the parents are shitty parents. Maybe a sister or brother died. Often the bully lives a very sad life, with sucky parents.
Or maybe the bully is in a very poor family and he wants to seem strong in real life and not appear weak, so he bullies people he is jealous of because the bully sees. He pretends his/her life is great, but it isn't actually.
Most of the time though, bullying and griefing happen because the bullies personal life is so miserable and crappy. Most of that is because at home his parents are losers or (again) divorced. Or maybe the father (or mother) is abusive.
Jealousy of course is a big one for bullying, but jealousy usually comes from being in a very poor family and the bully/griefer sees the other person has things he/she doesn't have.
Does it make it right the bully and griefer then takes his terrible life and puts it on others? No, but it isn't entirely their fault either. But it is a different perspective of why that bully (or griefer) may want to destroy someones sand castle.
And we're back to "people who inconvenience me are bad people."
It's still just as stupid and childish as it was a few pages ago.
I didn't say anything about being inconvenienced. I described why, in psychological terms, why a bully and griefer bullies and griefs others.
You're calling people bullies because they inconvenience you.
Bullies are generally not considered good people. They're generally considered "a$$holes." People make movies and songs about bad things happening to them because it's seen as ok if a bully "gets his."
Calling people bullies is explicitly calling them a bad person. It's an insult for a reason.
If I'm playing Splatoon and I'm trying to draw smiley faces, it is not griefing for the other players to paint over my smiley faces. It may be annoying to me that they won't let me play the game the way I want, but it is the intent of the devs to play the game that way.
Let's say a kid builds a sand castle on the beach, and you just run over it and destroy it because you're a sad little bully. It's not really forbidden by any rule on the beach, but you definitely will have to face the kid's parents. In your example, it's exactly the same but you are on the Internet and can escape consequences.
Being an asshat is being an asshat. No matter the setting or rules, if you choose to be one, you are one. No ifs, no buts. And an Internet asshat doubles as a coward behind a screen.
A grierfer is a griefer no matter the setting. PvE, PvP, real life bully.
Because a game with defined rules is the same thing as real life.
No, you engage them because there are no reprecussions like in Real Life, it is your online Safe Space to act out, those are your 'reasons.' If you are an a$$hole in RL you will lose friends, jobs or get punched into tomorrow. Here you can do whatever you want, its actually a powerful motivation, very cowardly too but a motivation nevertheless.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
Most people can actually tell the difference between reality and fantasy, realizing that it is just a game.
On the other hand, one could actually doubt your ability to tell the difference when you are taking it so seriously that you are linking in-game behavior to real life behavior.
Well, when you're acting like an a$$hole you are acting like an a$$hole, it doesn't matter where you do it. There are no special circumstances where that is ok.
The only fallacy here is you trying to make a distinction and coming up with lame excuses to make your behaviour acceptable while in reality you are just being that, an a$$hole, the internet is just the place you chose to be one.
And why that gets to me? You're trying to make online bullying ok with cowardly reasons like 'the game allows it.' Because that is what grieving is in this case, online bullying, this had nothing to do with PVPing and can happen in a PVE setting too.
Now, LOL your frigging way out of this one, I bet you STILL can't see the difference. And that's ok, you'll be an ass online, I'll be a nice guy. We'll never meet in those many high quality OWPVP games you spend your time in... Ohh wait...
/Cheers, Lahnmir
I'm going to draw this in crayon so it will be on a level you understand.
Killing other players in a PvP game is not griefing. It is the intended player interaction.
Killing other player in a PvP game is not being a "a$$hole." It is the intended player interaction.
Are you seriously this dense? Do you have ANY idea what people are discussing in this thread? You're like a child wandering into the middle of a conversation you know nothing about.
STFU Donny.
Are you mentally disabled?
I've explained this as simply as I can and you still can't comprehend it. This is exactly what the conversation was about, as I've shown repeatedly to you clowns. The entire quote chain is about killing people, and justification for it. Go back to page 9. Read it again.
Still the same fallacy....
You are trying to find particular motives and purposes where
there are actually none. You feel like to engage the guy in your sight?
Go ahead...all just because you can, no conditions, no goals, no
purpose.
Most MMOs have their PVP somehow structured - particular zone,
flags, instances, objectives w/e, this is not the case tho, provided
environment is non-consensual PVP.
You engage people because you can engage them, no particular reason or motive is required.
This is what is being responded to in the quoted thread. It's about the intent and purpose of the game. Your side is playing amateur psychologist looking for deeper meaning in PvP. Our side is saying that PvP is its own meaning and that if an enemy player is attackable, you're justified in doing so by the design of the game.
If you do something the developers intend as part of the game's design, it can not be considered griefing.
Example: In Blade & Soul spawn/corpse camping was completely normal and everyone did it. The developers intended it to be that way, but since they weren't morons they gave players an out. You could surrender and respawn without your PvP outfit on to get out of combat. As long as you kept your outfit on it was perfectly acceptable to spawn camp, or even repeatedly force rez and kill you.
Do you understand what intent means?
No. You're choosing to argue the same red herring that Gdemami is, and trying to act like nobody else understands it and you're superior because of it. If you're not an alternate account for Gdemami, he needs to start paying you for your services.
Either way, it doesn't make you right. It makes you sound like an idiot. Generally, attempting to support an argument made by a recurring troll user does.
It makes you look like a moron when you don't understand basic ideas. the definition for griefing has been repeatedly linked in this thread. All of the credible sources include some form of abuse of unintended mechanics to ruin other people's experience.
If your IQ is too low to understand that, then you should just stop posting instead of griefing me with your stupidity.
Developers "intend" for you to corpse camp players too weak to defend themselves just as much as they "intend" for you to camp a spawn of mobs that are grey con.
Unless you receive some kind of reward from repeatedly killing players too weak to defend themselves (which, in all but I think one MMORPG that's relevant, you don't), then the developers are discouraging that activity.
But hey, keep on high-fiving and slapping your Bros on the ass, yelling "GG!" whenever you participate in griefing. The vast majority doesn't give a shit about your overly aggressive attempts to "enlighten" us, you're still just gonna be that asshole.
It makes you look like a moron when you don't understand basic ideas. the definition for griefing has been repeatedly linked in this thread. All of the credible sources include some form of abuse of unintended mechanics to ruin other people's experience.
If your IQ is too low to understand that, then you should just stop posting instead of griefing me with your stupidity.
Developers "intend" for you to corpse camp players too weak to defend themselves just as much as they "intend" for you to camp a spawn of mobs that are grey con.
Unless you receive some kind of reward from repeatedly killing players too weak to defend themselves (which, in all but I think one MMORPG that's relevant, you don't), then the developers are discouraging that activity.
But hey, keep on high-fiving and slapping your Bros on the ass, yelling "GG!" whenever you participate in griefing. The vast majority doesn't give a shit about your overly aggressive attempts to "enlighten" us, you're still just gonna be that asshole.
Most games reward killing grey con mobs. In many it's more rewarding than killing mobs your own level because of the sheer volume you can kill in the same time. Even if it isn't actively encourage, it doesn't mean it's actively discouraged.
As for PvP, I don't see the problem with killing low levels. In TERA I got ganked my first time crossing the Lumbertown bridge. I imagine a lot of people did since it was pretty much camped by high levels looking for a laugh when I played. I laughed, respawned and jumped down into the river to avoid them. Life went on. If you can't get over dying in a PvP game then you shouldn't play them.
Being murdered in UO and making friends with the people who murdered me is how I first got into MMO PvP.
And where did I say anything about me killing newbs?
I'm ok with the behavior but it isn't something I find enjoyable. I'm ok with gay dudes, but making out with one isn't something that sounds very appealing. You don't have to participate in every activity that you don't find morally objectionable.
If I'm playing Splatoon and I'm trying to draw smiley faces, it is not griefing for the other players to paint over my smiley faces. It may be annoying to me that they won't let me play the game the way I want, but it is the intent of the devs to play the game that way.
Let's say a kid builds a sand castle on the beach, and you just run over it and destroy it because you're a sad little bully. It's not really forbidden by any rule on the beach, but you definitely will have to face the kid's parents. In your example, it's exactly the same but you are on the Internet and can escape consequences.
Being an asshat is being an asshat. No matter the setting or rules, if you choose to be one, you are one. No ifs, no buts. And an Internet asshat doubles as a coward behind a screen.
A grierfer is a griefer no matter the setting. PvE, PvP, real life bully.
Because a game with defined rules is the same thing as real life.
You get more ridiculous with ever post.
Missing the point again.
Both real life and games allow things. In real life, you can destroy that sand castle, you won't get into jail because of it but you will have ruined that kid's day. In a game, you can kill that low level defenseless character over and over again, the game allows it, but you will have ruined the player's day.
Same thing. Same little bully doing them. Only difference is he doesn't risk a broken nose in a video game. As I said... coward.
No, they're not in any way the same thing. One is the real world. One is a game.
When you play a PvP game you are advertising to everyone "I'm building a sand castle. Come kick it over if you think you can." You are explicitly consenting to PvP by playing a PvP game.
Wrong, kid. Both of my examples are games. Only difference is one happens in a video game, the other in a real life game (building sand castles). In both of my examples, the victim isn't directly hurt physically but only psychologically.
So in your book, apparently, it's wrong being a bully in one game but ok to be one in the other. Amusingly, the one where it's ok to be one is the one where direct consequences that may hurt you too are very unlikely to happen.
What is it? Being a bully in a game is only ok when you can totally escape consequences?
So it's a total lack of empathy when not forced to behave nicely in similar leisure activities. Once the threat of direct retaliation is gone, you suddenly turn into a wild animal with no limits, even though both settings are the same, both are simple games.
Maybe it's you who should seek professional help, after all...
I give up. If you're so far gone that you can't tell the difference between the real world and a video game where you give explicit consent by playing it, then I can't help you.
If I'm playing Splatoon and I'm trying to draw smiley faces, it is not griefing for the other players to paint over my smiley faces. It may be annoying to me that they won't let me play the game the way I want, but it is the intent of the devs to play the game that way.
Let's say a kid builds a sand castle on the beach, and you just run over it and destroy it because you're a sad little bully. It's not really forbidden by any rule on the beach, but you definitely will have to face the kid's parents. In your example, it's exactly the same but you are on the Internet and can escape consequences.
Being an asshat is being an asshat. No matter the setting or rules, if you choose to be one, you are one. No ifs, no buts. And an Internet asshat doubles as a coward behind a screen.
A grierfer is a griefer no matter the setting. PvE, PvP, real life bully.
Because a game with defined rules is the same thing as real life.
You get more ridiculous with ever post.
Missing the point again.
Both real life and games allow things. In real life, you can destroy that sand castle, you won't get into jail because of it but you will have ruined that kid's day. In a game, you can kill that low level defenseless character over and over again, the game allows it, but you will have ruined the player's day.
Same thing. Same little bully doing them. Only difference is he doesn't risk a broken nose in a video game. As I said... coward.
No, they're not in any way the same thing. One is the real world. One is a game.
When you play a PvP game you are advertising to everyone "I'm building a sand castle. Come kick it over if you think you can." You are explicitly consenting to PvP by playing a PvP game.
Wrong, kid. Both of my examples are games. Only difference is one happens in a video game, the other in a real life game (building sand castles). In both of my examples, the victim isn't directly hurt physically but only psychologically.
So in your book, apparently, it's wrong being a bully in one game but ok to be one in the other. Amusingly, the one where it's ok to be one is the one where direct consequences that may hurt you too are very unlikely to happen.
What is it? Being a bully in a game is only ok when you can totally escape consequences?
So it's a total lack of empathy when not forced to behave nicely in similar leisure activities. Once the threat of direct retaliation is gone, you suddenly turn into a wild animal with no limits, even though both settings are the same, both are simple games.
Maybe it's you who should seek professional help, after all...
I give up. If you're so far gone that you can't tell the difference between the real world and a video game where you give explicit consent by playing it, then I can't help you.
How is that, kid? By building a sand castle in a public sand pit, the kid explicitly opened himself to destruction by some brain dead bully too. It's not different. Or he would have done his castle in a private place (PvE server?). Both are multiplayer communities. So how is it different? Please, pray tell me.
It makes you look like a moron when you don't understand basic ideas. the definition for griefing has been repeatedly linked in this thread. All of the credible sources include some form of abuse of unintended mechanics to ruin other people's experience.
If your IQ is too low to understand that, then you should just stop posting instead of griefing me with your stupidity.
Developers "intend" for you to corpse camp players too weak to defend themselves just as much as they "intend" for you to camp a spawn of mobs that are grey con.
Unless you receive some kind of reward from repeatedly killing players too weak to defend themselves (which, in all but I think one MMORPG that's relevant, you don't), then the developers are discouraging that activity.
But hey, keep on high-fiving and slapping your Bros on the ass, yelling "GG!" whenever you participate in griefing. The vast majority doesn't give a shit about your overly aggressive attempts to "enlighten" us, you're still just gonna be that asshole.
Most games reward killing grey con mobs. In many it's more rewarding than killing mobs your own level because of the sheer volume you can kill in the same time. Even if it isn't actively encourage, it doesn't mean it's actively discouraged.
As for PvP, I don't see the problem with killing low levels. In TERA I got ganked my first time crossing the Lumbertown bridge. I imagine a lot of people did since it was pretty much camped by high levels looking for a laugh when I played. I laughed, respawned and jumped down into the river to avoid them. Life went on. If you can't get over dying in a PvP game then you shouldn't play them.
Being murdered in UO and making friends with the people who murdered me is how I first got into MMO PvP.
And where did I say anything about me killing newbs?
I'm ok with the behavior but it isn't something I find enjoyable. I'm ok with gay dudes, but making out with one isn't something that sounds very appealing. You don't have to participate in every activity that you don't find morally objectionable.
Never played an MMORPG where the best way to progress was camping grey con mobs. In fact, I don't remember the last time I played an MMORPG where grey con mobs provided anything in the way of valuable loot or any experience.
We're really comparing behavior targeted at the expense of others as the same as a personal life choice in regard to sexuality? That's not at all an accurate comparison. Gay people aren't gay to spite straight people.
And nodody in this thread has said that simply engaging in PvP is griefing. That's the red herring you, and others, keep trying to make this argument about. Griefing is beyond simply engaging in PvP.
I wouldn't be surprised if some developers actually enjoy griefing and have managed to work it into a games structure.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
It makes you look like a moron when you don't understand basic ideas. the definition for griefing has been repeatedly linked in this thread. All of the credible sources include some form of abuse of unintended mechanics to ruin other people's experience.
If your IQ is too low to understand that, then you should just stop posting instead of griefing me with your stupidity.
Developers "intend" for you to corpse camp players too weak to defend themselves just as much as they "intend" for you to camp a spawn of mobs that are grey con.
Unless you receive some kind of reward from repeatedly killing players too weak to defend themselves (which, in all but I think one MMORPG that's relevant, you don't), then the developers are discouraging that activity.
But hey, keep on high-fiving and slapping your Bros on the ass, yelling "GG!" whenever you participate in griefing. The vast majority doesn't give a shit about your overly aggressive attempts to "enlighten" us, you're still just gonna be that asshole.
Most games reward killing grey con mobs. In many it's more rewarding than killing mobs your own level because of the sheer volume you can kill in the same time. Even if it isn't actively encourage, it doesn't mean it's actively discouraged.
As for PvP, I don't see the problem with killing low levels. In TERA I got ganked my first time crossing the Lumbertown bridge. I imagine a lot of people did since it was pretty much camped by high levels looking for a laugh when I played. I laughed, respawned and jumped down into the river to avoid them. Life went on. If you can't get over dying in a PvP game then you shouldn't play them.
Being murdered in UO and making friends with the people who murdered me is how I first got into MMO PvP.
And where did I say anything about me killing newbs?
I'm ok with the behavior but it isn't something I find enjoyable. I'm ok with gay dudes, but making out with one isn't something that sounds very appealing. You don't have to participate in every activity that you don't find morally objectionable.
Never played an MMORPG where the best way to progress was camping grey con mobs. In fact, I don't remember the last time I played an MMORPG where grey con mobs provided anything in the way of valuable loot or any experience.
Some of the best money farming spots are 10+ levels below level 'cap' in BDO.
We're really comparing behavior targeted at the expense of others as the
same as a personal life choice in regard to sexuality? That's not at
all an accurate comparison. Gay people aren't gay to spite straight
people.
There in lies the issue. You're assuming that killing low levels or other "griefing" behavior is done to spite people. I don't agree with you.
And nodody in this thread has said that simply engaging
in PvP is griefing. That's the red herring you, and others, keep trying
to make this argument about. Griefing is beyond simply engaging in
PvP.
But this has been explained ad nauseum.
I've never said that anyone was arguing that all PvP is griefing. "Strawman! Strawman!"
It makes you look like a moron when you don't understand basic ideas. the definition for griefing has been repeatedly linked in this thread. All of the credible sources include some form of abuse of unintended mechanics to ruin other people's experience.
If your IQ is too low to understand that, then you should just stop posting instead of griefing me with your stupidity.
Developers "intend" for you to corpse camp players too weak to defend themselves just as much as they "intend" for you to camp a spawn of mobs that are grey con.
Unless you receive some kind of reward from repeatedly killing players too weak to defend themselves (which, in all but I think one MMORPG that's relevant, you don't), then the developers are discouraging that activity.
But hey, keep on high-fiving and slapping your Bros on the ass, yelling "GG!" whenever you participate in griefing. The vast majority doesn't give a shit about your overly aggressive attempts to "enlighten" us, you're still just gonna be that asshole.
Most games reward killing grey con mobs. In many it's more rewarding than killing mobs your own level because of the sheer volume you can kill in the same time. Even if it isn't actively encourage, it doesn't mean it's actively discouraged.
As for PvP, I don't see the problem with killing low levels. In TERA I got ganked my first time crossing the Lumbertown bridge. I imagine a lot of people did since it was pretty much camped by high levels looking for a laugh when I played. I laughed, respawned and jumped down into the river to avoid them. Life went on. If you can't get over dying in a PvP game then you shouldn't play them.
Being murdered in UO and making friends with the people who murdered me is how I first got into MMO PvP.
And where did I say anything about me killing newbs?
I'm ok with the behavior but it isn't something I find enjoyable. I'm ok with gay dudes, but making out with one isn't something that sounds very appealing. You don't have to participate in every activity that you don't find morally objectionable.
Never played an MMORPG where the best way to progress was camping grey con mobs. In fact, I don't remember the last time I played an MMORPG where grey con mobs provided anything in the way of valuable loot or any experience.
Some of the best money farming spots are 10+ levels below level 'cap' in BDO.
We're really comparing behavior targeted at the expense of others as the
same as a personal life choice in regard to sexuality? That's not at
all an accurate comparison. Gay people aren't gay to spite straight
people.
There in lies the issue. You're assuming that killing low levels or other "griefing" behavior is done to spite people. I don't agree with you.
And nodody in this thread has said that simply engaging
in PvP is griefing. That's the red herring you, and others, keep trying
to make this argument about. Griefing is beyond simply engaging in
PvP.
But this has been explained ad nauseum.
I've never said that anyone was arguing that all PvP is griefing. "Strawman! Strawman!"
IB4Quoted out of context.
You can disagree all you want, the vast majority disagrees with you, not me. Griefing is done to degrade the experience of those around the player doing the griefing. Nothing about gay people going to the movies degrades that experience for anyone else going to that movie. Someone standing up and yelling during the movie repeatedly does. You can attempt to make the case that those people are simply "enjoying the movie in their own way," but nobody really cares if it means it degrades others' experiences.
It makes you look like a moron when you don't understand basic ideas. the definition for griefing has been repeatedly linked in this thread. All of the credible sources include some form of abuse of unintended mechanics to ruin other people's experience.
If your IQ is too low to understand that, then you should just stop posting instead of griefing me with your stupidity.
Developers "intend" for you to corpse camp players too weak to defend themselves just as much as they "intend" for you to camp a spawn of mobs that are grey con.
Unless you receive some kind of reward from repeatedly killing players too weak to defend themselves (which, in all but I think one MMORPG that's relevant, you don't), then the developers are discouraging that activity.
But hey, keep on high-fiving and slapping your Bros on the ass, yelling "GG!" whenever you participate in griefing. The vast majority doesn't give a shit about your overly aggressive attempts to "enlighten" us, you're still just gonna be that asshole.
Most games reward killing grey con mobs. In many it's more rewarding than killing mobs your own level because of the sheer volume you can kill in the same time. Even if it isn't actively encourage, it doesn't mean it's actively discouraged.
As for PvP, I don't see the problem with killing low levels. In TERA I got ganked my first time crossing the Lumbertown bridge. I imagine a lot of people did since it was pretty much camped by high levels looking for a laugh when I played. I laughed, respawned and jumped down into the river to avoid them. Life went on. If you can't get over dying in a PvP game then you shouldn't play them.
Being murdered in UO and making friends with the people who murdered me is how I first got into MMO PvP.
And where did I say anything about me killing newbs?
I'm ok with the behavior but it isn't something I find enjoyable. I'm ok with gay dudes, but making out with one isn't something that sounds very appealing. You don't have to participate in every activity that you don't find morally objectionable.
Never played an MMORPG where the best way to progress was camping grey con mobs. In fact, I don't remember the last time I played an MMORPG where grey con mobs provided anything in the way of valuable loot or any experience.
Some of the best money farming spots are 10+ levels below level 'cap' in BDO.
We're really comparing behavior targeted at the expense of others as the
same as a personal life choice in regard to sexuality? That's not at
all an accurate comparison. Gay people aren't gay to spite straight
people.
There in lies the issue. You're assuming that killing low levels or other "griefing" behavior is done to spite people. I don't agree with you.
And nodody in this thread has said that simply engaging
in PvP is griefing. That's the red herring you, and others, keep trying
to make this argument about. Griefing is beyond simply engaging in
PvP.
But this has been explained ad nauseum.
I've never said that anyone was arguing that all PvP is griefing. "Strawman! Strawman!"
IB4Quoted out of context.
You can disagree all you want, the vast majority disagrees with you, not me.
For someone who likes to cite logical fallacies (incorrectly) you sure do use a lot of them.
Argumentum ad populum isn't a valid rebuttal.
Griefing is done to degrade the experience of those around the player
doing the griefing. Nothing about gay people going to the movies
degrades that experience for anyone else going to that movie. Someone
standing up and yelling during the movie repeatedly does. You can
attempt to make the case that those people are simply "enjoying the
movie in their own way," but nobody really cares if it means it degrades
others' experiences.
Again, you're simply wrong on what griefing is. Yelling in a movie theater is against the rules. They will kick you out for that. Killing newbs in low level areas or spawn camping is not against the rules in most games. Where it is against the written COC I would agree that it's griefing. The COC is part of the game and its intended functionality as much as the mechanics.
It makes you look like a moron when you don't understand basic ideas. the definition for griefing has been repeatedly linked in this thread. All of the credible sources include some form of abuse of unintended mechanics to ruin other people's experience.
If your IQ is too low to understand that, then you should just stop posting instead of griefing me with your stupidity.
Developers "intend" for you to corpse camp players too weak to defend themselves just as much as they "intend" for you to camp a spawn of mobs that are grey con.
Unless you receive some kind of reward from repeatedly killing players too weak to defend themselves (which, in all but I think one MMORPG that's relevant, you don't), then the developers are discouraging that activity.
But hey, keep on high-fiving and slapping your Bros on the ass, yelling "GG!" whenever you participate in griefing. The vast majority doesn't give a shit about your overly aggressive attempts to "enlighten" us, you're still just gonna be that asshole.
Most games reward killing grey con mobs. In many it's more rewarding than killing mobs your own level because of the sheer volume you can kill in the same time. Even if it isn't actively encourage, it doesn't mean it's actively discouraged.
As for PvP, I don't see the problem with killing low levels. In TERA I got ganked my first time crossing the Lumbertown bridge. I imagine a lot of people did since it was pretty much camped by high levels looking for a laugh when I played. I laughed, respawned and jumped down into the river to avoid them. Life went on. If you can't get over dying in a PvP game then you shouldn't play them.
Being murdered in UO and making friends with the people who murdered me is how I first got into MMO PvP.
And where did I say anything about me killing newbs?
I'm ok with the behavior but it isn't something I find enjoyable. I'm ok with gay dudes, but making out with one isn't something that sounds very appealing. You don't have to participate in every activity that you don't find morally objectionable.
Never played an MMORPG where the best way to progress was camping grey con mobs. In fact, I don't remember the last time I played an MMORPG where grey con mobs provided anything in the way of valuable loot or any experience.
Some of the best money farming spots are 10+ levels below level 'cap' in BDO.
We're really comparing behavior targeted at the expense of others as the
same as a personal life choice in regard to sexuality? That's not at
all an accurate comparison. Gay people aren't gay to spite straight
people.
There in lies the issue. You're assuming that killing low levels or other "griefing" behavior is done to spite people. I don't agree with you.
And nodody in this thread has said that simply engaging
in PvP is griefing. That's the red herring you, and others, keep trying
to make this argument about. Griefing is beyond simply engaging in
PvP.
But this has been explained ad nauseum.
I've never said that anyone was arguing that all PvP is griefing. "Strawman! Strawman!"
IB4Quoted out of context.
You can disagree all you want, the vast majority disagrees with you, not me.
For someone who likes to cite logically fallacies (incorrectly) you sure do use a lot of them.
Argumentum ad populum isn't a valid rebuttal.
Griefing is done to degrade the experience of those around the player
doing the griefing. Nothing about gay people going to the movies
degrades that experience for anyone else going to that movie. Someone
standing up and yelling during the movie repeatedly does. You can
attempt to make the case that those people are simply "enjoying the
movie in their own way," but nobody really cares if it means it degrades
others' experiences.
Again, you're simply wrong on what griefing is. Yelling in a movie theater is against the rules. They will kick you out for that. Killing newbs in low level areas or spawn camping is not against the rules in most games. Where it is against the written COC I would agree that it's griefing. The COC is part of the game and its intended functionality as much as the mechanics.
Spawn camping to defend an objective is not griefing.
Spawn camping to ruin someones day for shits and giggles is griefing.
Comments
For myself, I would say when bridge blocking farm carts in ArcheAge became an allowed thing and Trion claimed it to be "emergent gameplay" definitely became griefers paradise. After they disallowed it of course, I and many other players had already quit that shit....
I've explained this as simply as I can and you still can't comprehend it. This is exactly what the conversation was about, as I've shown repeatedly to you clowns. The entire quote chain is about killing people, and justification for it. Go back to page 9. Read it again.
You are trying to find particular motives and purposes where there are actually none. You feel like to engage the guy in your sight? Go ahead...all just because you can, no conditions, no goals, no purpose.
Most MMOs have their PVP somehow structured - particular zone, flags, instances, objectives w/e, this is not the case tho, provided environment is non-consensual PVP.
You engage people because you can engage them, no particular reason or motive is required.
This is what is being responded to in the quoted thread. It's about the intent and purpose of the game. Your side is playing amateur psychologist looking for deeper meaning in PvP. Our side is saying that PvP is its own meaning and that if an enemy player is attackable, you're justified in doing so by the design of the game.
If you do something the developers intend as part of the game's design, it can not be considered griefing.
Example: In Blade & Soul spawn/corpse camping was completely normal and everyone did it. The developers intended it to be that way, but since they weren't morons they gave players an out. You could surrender and respawn without your PvP outfit on to get out of combat. As long as you kept your outfit on it was perfectly acceptable to spawn camp, or even repeatedly force rez and kill you.
Do you understand what intent means?
Griefing is about the players actions and intent. Not the developers.
If I'm playing Splatoon and I'm trying to draw smiley faces, it is not griefing for the other players to paint over my smiley faces. It may be annoying to me that they won't let me play the game the way I want, but it is the intent of the devs to play the game that way.
Griefing isn't simply doing something that's annoying. That would make it entirely subjective since what one person finds annoying another might find funny.
Either way, it doesn't make you right. It makes you sound like an idiot. Generally, attempting to support an argument made by a recurring troll user does.
You get more ridiculous with ever post.
It makes you look like a moron when you don't understand basic ideas. the definition for griefing has been repeatedly linked in this thread. All of the credible sources include some form of abuse of unintended mechanics to ruin other people's experience.
If your IQ is too low to understand that, then you should just stop posting instead of griefing me with your stupidity.
Don't mind me guys.....*POPCORN*
"My Fantasy is having two men at once...
One Cooking and One Cleaning!"
---------------------------
"A good man can make you feel sexy,
strong and able to take on the whole world...
oh sorry...that's wine...wine does that..."
Or maybe the bully is in a very poor family and he wants to seem strong in real life and not appear weak, so he bullies people he is jealous of because the bully sees. He pretends his/her life is great, but it isn't actually.
Most of the time though, bullying and griefing happen because the bullies personal life is so miserable and crappy. Most of that is because at home his parents are losers or (again) divorced. Or maybe the father (or mother) is abusive.
Jealousy of course is a big one for bullying, but jealousy usually comes from being in a very poor family and the bully/griefer sees the other person has things he/she doesn't have.
Does it make it right the bully and griefer then takes his terrible life and puts it on others? No, but it isn't entirely their fault either. But it is a different perspective of why that bully (or griefer) may want to destroy someones sand castle.
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
https://www.moddb.com/mods/skyrim-anime-overhaul
When you play a PvP game you are advertising to everyone "I'm building a sand castle. Come kick it over if you think you can." You are explicitly consenting to PvP by playing a PvP game.
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
https://www.moddb.com/mods/skyrim-anime-overhaul
Bullies are generally not considered good people. They're generally considered "a$$holes." People make movies and songs about bad things happening to them because it's seen as ok if a bully "gets his."
Calling people bullies is explicitly calling them a bad person. It's an insult for a reason.
Unless you receive some kind of reward from repeatedly killing players too weak to defend themselves (which, in all but I think one MMORPG that's relevant, you don't), then the developers are discouraging that activity.
But hey, keep on high-fiving and slapping your Bros on the ass, yelling "GG!" whenever you participate in griefing. The vast majority doesn't give a shit about your overly aggressive attempts to "enlighten" us, you're still just gonna be that asshole.
As for PvP, I don't see the problem with killing low levels. In TERA I got ganked my first time crossing the Lumbertown bridge. I imagine a lot of people did since it was pretty much camped by high levels looking for a laugh when I played. I laughed, respawned and jumped down into the river to avoid them. Life went on. If you can't get over dying in a PvP game then you shouldn't play them.
Being murdered in UO and making friends with the people who murdered me is how I first got into MMO PvP.
And where did I say anything about me killing newbs?
I'm ok with the behavior but it isn't something I find enjoyable. I'm ok with gay dudes, but making out with one isn't something that sounds very appealing. You don't have to participate in every activity that you don't find morally objectionable.
Like I said. You're beyond help.
We're really comparing behavior targeted at the expense of others as the same as a personal life choice in regard to sexuality? That's not at all an accurate comparison. Gay people aren't gay to spite straight people.
And nodody in this thread has said that simply engaging in PvP is griefing. That's the red herring you, and others, keep trying to make this argument about. Griefing is beyond simply engaging in PvP.
But this has been explained ad nauseum.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
There in lies the issue. You're assuming that killing low levels or other "griefing" behavior is done to spite people. I don't agree with you.
But this has been explained ad nauseum.
I've never said that anyone was arguing that all PvP is griefing. "Strawman! Strawman!"
IB4Quoted out of context.
Starting a new thread entitled "Which thread promoted the most trolling?"
Argumentum ad populum isn't a valid rebuttal.
Again, you're simply wrong on what griefing is. Yelling in a movie theater is against the rules. They will kick you out for that. Killing newbs in low level areas or spawn camping is not against the rules in most games. Where it is against the written COC I would agree that it's griefing. The COC is part of the game and its intended functionality as much as the mechanics.
Spawn camping to ruin someones day for shits and giggles is griefing.
Is that agreeable?
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee