Griefing is about the players actions and intent. Not the developers.
Actions and intent. Let's remember those two words.
Walking into a PvP area and killing someone without reason isn't griefing. That's just part of PvP. Following that person around repeatedly killing them or doing other things to annoy them is griefing. I don't know why that's so hard to understand.
Yet it seems most people can't understand it. These people are just too delicate to play any game with PvP. Even a single death seems to send them into a tail-spin. A single resource node taken before they get there and the insults spew in chat. Get to a mob before them and they act like you just started World War III. Those people really should consider avoiding games with PvP entirely.
I agree. Just killing someone without reason isn't griefing.
Killing someone repeatedly preventing them from doing anything, done for no other apparent purpose other than to irritate the other player is griefing.
@flybyknight - "Griefing is something that warrants a warning > suspension > ban.
I don't know, that varies game by game. Some allow it, some don't. Warning/bans are about the rules of the game.
Griefing is about the players behaviour which may or may not violate the game rules.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Or better have the open pvp stuff in its own seperate big zone, so that people can level in peace or ignore pvp as a whole if they wish to, forcing it on everyone is just a good way to end up with a dead game after less than 6-12 months. Especally today when 90% of mmorpg players are casuals who aren't in the mood for being ganked while just trying to quest etc.
Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:
A. Proven right (if something bad happens)
or
B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)
"If Butterbean did pick that fight, would you be shouting about how that person shouldn't have participated in the sport of boxing if he was "afraid" of getting hit?"
If he willingly got into the ring with him (aka entered a PvP area)...
YES
I can tell you from Albion Online that just about every day I hear about someone entering a tier V red zone as a tier III and whining that they were "griefed".
In Eve, there was a steady stream of newbie morons who would just jump right into 0.0 and then complain when they were killed, claiming it was griefing.
No one has the right to fair PvP if they choose to enter unfair situations. No one. Ever. Go away, get better/stronger/more skilled and come back later. If you keep going back for more that's your own fault.
Part of playing in PvP areas is being aware of your surroundings. Also, realize that getting ambushed is also part of PvP. So is stalking. So is 5v1, etc.
You have no right to expect anything else.
Some times it's just another player trying to show you that the area you're in is out of your league. What would you have them do? Tell them, "Hey, you should consider coming back here when you're stronger." I've done that. Most of the time the response is, "Fuck you!". So I kill them. They come back. I kill them again. They come back. They're not getting griefed, they are a first class MORON. I don't like people telling me to fuck off.
If that's griefing to you, then postlarval = proud griefer.
Who said anything about getting into the ring? The kid was training at the gym, Butterbean was just bored. Interrupting this kid's training was fun for him. I mean, the kid's at the gym, he should expect to get hit, right?
And your example is not describing a PvP situation as the exists in games. It's a poor use case. In boxing the ring is the accepted PvP environment. Your example in an MMO would be akin to a PvPer walking into a PvE area and being able to kill someone (probably by breaking rules - hacking). In your example, he picked the fight outside of the accepted boxing rules. He broke the rules. That's not even griefing. It's also not boxing, it's fighting. BIG difference.
ALL PvP is consensual. You choose to enter a PvP area. You choose to turn on a PvP flag.
What? Not all training or sparring happens in the ring. What boxing gym have you been to?
The point is just because something isn't directly and completely prevented by the system itself, it doesn't mean you get to perform the act and submit you shouldn't be judged for it. You wanna camp lowbie quest givers in a lowbie zone in your raid gear? Then congrats! Here's your asshat pin (decoder ring sold separately)!
Do you wanna shout to the rooftops about how awful gay people are? Sure, but when you get judged for it as a bigot or homophobe, don't whine. Be a man and own up to it. These psuedo-justifications don't help your case; they just make you look like an asshat who also can't handle being held accountable.
1. Not talking about camping anyone. Try and read more thoroughly next time.
2. Gay people? Homophobe? WTF are you going on about? If you have unresolved issues around it, I suggest you don't bring them up here. WAY off-topic and frankly, THE most stupid statement I've read in this thread yet. You should probably do yourself a favor and delete that part of your response.
I hardly think you should be the one telling others about being held accountable. Treating competitive PvP like an adult IS being accountable instead of your childish whining, hoping some developer will bail you out of your own incompetence and fear of losing.
You may want to take a few deep breaths and stop posting tripe like the above before you look even more ridiculous than you already do.
Good examples of when spawn camping is not griefing.
Example of griefing with spawn camping
Johnny is bored, he's a level 60. Johnny gets his kicks going to the level 20-30 zone, picking a a low level victim, killing them and spawn camping them, over and over and over until they get fed up and log out.
He then moves on to his next victim.
Still not clearly griefing. As I mentioned previously, some devs see that as intended gameplay. See Crowfall. They not only say it's ok, they tell people who don't like it to wait for tests of less hardcore rulesets.
If the devs intend for this to be the way the game is played it literally can not be griefing.
He also undercut his own argument by using only FPSs as examples.
FPSs are focused on skill winning the day. MMORPGs aren't. A level 7 Hunter can't headshot a level 60 Shaman and get an instakill.
Take the spawn camping technique mentioned in Day of Defeat. If the spawn camping team also had swords and spells that do 10× more damage than the other team, I highly doubt the players would be as accepting of the situation.
I used FPS games because they're very straight forward and even the people in this thread should be able to see the developers intent.
As far as damage goes, the defenders have MG42s. They probably do more than 10x the damage of the allied riflemen in the boats.
Good examples of when spawn camping is not griefing.
Example of griefing with spawn camping
Johnny is bored, he's a level 60. Johnny gets his kicks going to the level 20-30 zone, picking a a low level victim, killing them and spawn camping them, over and over and over until they get fed up and log out.
He then moves on to his next victim.
Still not clearly griefing. As I mentioned previously, some devs see that as intended gameplay. See Crowfall. They not only say it's ok, they tell people who don't like it to wait for tests of less hardcore rulesets.
If the devs intend for this to be the way the game is played it literally can not be griefing.
He also undercut his own argument by using only FPSs as examples.
FPSs are focused on skill winning the day. MMORPGs aren't. A level 7 Hunter can't headshot a level 60 Shaman and get an instakill.
Take the spawn camping technique mentioned in Day of Defeat. If the spawn camping team also had swords and spells that do 10× more damage than the other team, I highly doubt the players would be as accepting of the situation.
I used FPS games because they're very straight forward and even the people in this thread should be able to see the developers intent.
As far as damage goes, the defenders have MG42s. They probably do more than 10x the damage of the allied riflemen in the boats.
The attackers can also use MGs, and the defenders aren't nigh invincible with high level epic gear. C'mon, I shouldn't have had to point that out. Don't intentionally leave out information about the game to help your own argument. Day of Defeat never limited attackers and defenders or their weaponry in such a way. The server admins could set the class limits.
Good examples of when spawn camping is not griefing.
Example of griefing with spawn camping
Johnny is bored, he's a level 60. Johnny gets his kicks going to the level 20-30 zone, picking a a low level victim, killing them and spawn camping them, over and over and over until they get fed up and log out.
He then moves on to his next victim.
Still not clearly griefing. As I mentioned previously, some devs see that as intended gameplay. See Crowfall. They not only say it's ok, they tell people who don't like it to wait for tests of less hardcore rulesets.
If the devs intend for this to be the way the game is played it literally can not be griefing.
He also undercut his own argument by using only FPSs as examples.
FPSs are focused on skill winning the day. MMORPGs aren't. A level 7 Hunter can't headshot a level 60 Shaman and get an instakill.
Take the spawn camping technique mentioned in Day of Defeat. If the spawn camping team also had swords and spells that do 10× more damage than the other team, I highly doubt the players would be as accepting of the situation.
I used FPS games because they're very straight forward and even the people in this thread should be able to see the developers intent.
As far as damage goes, the defenders have MG42s. They probably do more than 10x the damage of the allied riflemen in the boats.
The attackers can also use MGs, and the defenders aren't nigh invincible with high level epic gear. C'mon, I shouldn't have had to point that out. Don't intentionally leave out information about the game to help your own argument. Day of Defeat never limited attackers and defenders or their weaponry in such a way. The server admins could set the class limits.
Setting up an immobile machinegun on the beach is suicide.
The defenders are in bunkers a hundred yards away where you can barely see them, and need a sniper rifle to even have a chance of hitting them. Using a sniper rifle in the open is also pretty close to suicide.
As this is still going I was thinking about a real world example of doing things that are allowed and ok yet can absolutely destroy someones life.
I found one, its called stalking. Stalkers just appear in the same social space as the victim. They can hang out in front of their house all day and take pictures that coincidentally have the victim on them. They can gather information on the victim or send them the nicest letters and emails. Nothing special on its own, some things nice even but the victim feels horrible in the end. Why?
Because they are defenseless Because the intention shines through Because the stalker doesn't know when to stop Because the stalker can do it unpunished and knows it Because it interferes and disrupts their every day business
ALL these points apply to grievers too. Now for the million dollar question: How do people in Real Life think about stalkers? Are they ok with it, are these normal people? Is it an acceptable thing to do or is there something wrong in their heads?
Stalker victims can't log out, don't get me wrong, i know that. But every motive and result is the same. The big problem is that most stalkers, even when arrested and/or punished, can't see what they are doing wrong and this goes for grievers too, this is on the stalker/griever though and NOT on their victims.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Stalking is legally defined as an overwhelming obsession against an individual to the point the threat of harm against the targeted individual is perceived.
Griefers know:
~Who to target ~Where to target ~How to take advantage of the situation ~Cover their tracks ~Systematically gank players in a zone
In fact, in every game I've played where griefing was a way of life; I've always been involving in the meetings by top guilds on how to maximize griefing to others outside the company of the guild as a measure to keep players out of the game and to limit the power of any potential player.
It was a way of life to gank a dangerous player until one of three things happen: a) The player surrenders and leaves the game b) The player surrenders and unconditionally gives his property away c) The player surrenders and joins the guild that griefed him, then encourage the player to grief his old guild for failure of protecting him..
Do I blame the griefers for taking advantage of the situation?
No!
I blame the developers for creating games that promote such conduct, where human nature deals with exploiting any resource capable of winning in these games even if the exploitation deals with the oppression of others.
Such games are proof that developers do not playtest their games enough and do not patch accordingly problems in their games. Quality Assurance also fails as one of the jobs that QA has is to foresee problems in the design and make adjustments willingly and offer solution.
Do I apologize to players who were PKed a thousand times until they surrendered? Not really. Are we to blame?
Of course we are, as we planned and executed the plan against the player.
Is our execution of the plan legal to the environment and design of the game's rules? Of course it is!
Who is to blame? Developer is to blame.
What if the Developer Changes their Terms of Service Agreement to eliminate Griefing or Lessen it?
I can't sue you for changing your ToS agreement, but I can sue you for targeting out griefers by comparing both agreements directly and proving that the agreement change was done so to specifically target a group of players in an environment coded specifically for such behavior. Then I can make a count for each player who was banned for Griefing prior to the execution of the new agreement and charge the developer two separate counts for each infraction against a player.
This has been fought in courts before...and the players have won. Best thing to end such a problem is to make sure the game itself is playtested thoroughly.
Worse thing you want are players to Chargeback. ^_^
Suppose a Developer says "We didn't know this would happen....we did nothing wrong!" Sorry, but that does not hold out in court. Developers and Publishers assume all action and damages caused by the behaviors of the clients upon their system under their ToS. "We didn't know" is not accepted.
What is a solution to this? Awareness... Make it known to everyone what kind of game is being played. What kind of developer is creating the game. What kind of publisher is running the game.
Discourage such systems by refusing to take part in such a system because unlike what real life throws at us, we have the choice on which game we want to play and take part in. Refusal is not going to destroy our economy, it will however force them to go back to their drawing boards and maybe with a flicker of hope, actually make a game worthy of actually playing.
Good examples of when spawn camping is not griefing.
Example of griefing with spawn camping
Johnny is bored, he's a level 60. Johnny gets his kicks going to the level 20-30 zone, picking a a low level victim, killing them and spawn camping them, over and over and over until they get fed up and log out.
He then moves on to his next victim.
Still not clearly griefing. As I mentioned previously, some devs see that as intended gameplay. See Crowfall. They not only say it's ok, they tell people who don't like it to wait for tests of less hardcore rulesets.
If the devs intend for this to be the way the game is played it literally can not be griefing.
He also undercut his own argument by using only FPSs as examples.
FPSs are focused on skill winning the day. MMORPGs aren't. A level 7 Hunter can't headshot a level 60 Shaman and get an instakill.
Take the spawn camping technique mentioned in Day of Defeat. If the spawn camping team also had swords and spells that do 10× more damage than the other team, I highly doubt the players would be as accepting of the situation.
I used FPS games because they're very straight forward and even the people in this thread should be able to see the developers intent.
As far as damage goes, the defenders have MG42s. They probably do more than 10x the damage of the allied riflemen in the boats.
The attackers can also use MGs, and the defenders aren't nigh invincible with high level epic gear. C'mon, I shouldn't have had to point that out. Don't intentionally leave out information about the game to help your own argument. Day of Defeat never limited attackers and defenders or their weaponry in such a way. The server admins could set the class limits.
Setting up an immobile machinegun on the beach is suicide.
The defenders are in bunkers a hundred yards away where you can barely see them, and need a sniper rifle to even have a chance of hitting them. Using a sniper rifle in the open is also pretty close to suicide.
Next excuse?
Lol, and yet you still intentionally fail to understand. There's nothing about that situation that's equitable to an MMORPG where a player can achieve stat domination before the fight ever starts. Stop being willfully ignorant.
And if you don't think snipers routinely neutralized MG nests in the original DoD by wall sniping, you never played it for any length of time. All they needed was one piece of cover tall enough to stand behind.
“Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish.” ― Euripides, The Bacchae
Constantine, The Console Poster
"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
"But we have evidence that shows you were there and did the deed. How do you explain it?"
"If you think I murdered someone, you are mentally ill and need mental help. I was in my basement playing a game called Griefer and kept killing a noob over and over. so I couldn't have murdered anyone"
"What time was that?"
"I'm telling you I'm no murderer"
"The time, what time frame can you say you were playing that game"
*the officer steps aside and tells his/her assistant that the Griefer is showing severe mental problems, and to write down he brags and beams at the thought of "killing" noobs over and over in a game*
"Well I can say your internet activity stopped between 2 am and 4 am, and started back at 4:02 am. Can you say where you were between 2 am and 4 am?"
"I'm no murderer officer! I never killed anyone in my life!"
*ten minutes later*
"Well we just found a camera and watched the tape that was hidden in the house showing you are in fact the murderer"
"I'm no murderer! I'm no murderer! YOU NEED MENTAL HELP OFFICER IF YOU THINK I MURDERED SOMEONE! I JUST LOVE KILLING NOOBS OVER AND OVER IN GAMES! DAMN NOOBS DESERVE TO BE KILLED! ITS PART OF THE GAME!"
and that is the typical criminal who even if 100% of the evidence is against him and there is absolute proof he is a criminal, he'll almost always deny the crime because they can not see themselves for what others see them as.
And often they make others feel like it is their fault (as in, this fake person I made up as an example in the post) saying the officer needs mental help, when they are putting it on others to avoid being the one who actually needs mental help
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
As this is still going I was thinking about a real world example of doing things that are allowed and ok yet can absolutely destroy someones life.
I found one, its called stalking. Stalkers just appear in the same social space as the victim. They can hang out in front of their house all day and take pictures that coincidentally have the victim on them. They can gather information on the victim or send them the nicest letters and emails. Nothing special on its own, some things nice even but the victim feels horrible in the end. Why?
Because they are defenseless Because the intention shines through Because the stalker doesn't know when to stop Because the stalker can do it unpunished and knows it Because it interferes and disrupts their every day business
ALL these points apply to grievers too. Now for the million dollar question: How do people in Real Life think about stalkers? Are they ok with it, are these normal people? Is it an acceptable thing to do or is there something wrong in their heads?
Stalker victims can't log out, don't get me wrong, i know that. But every motive and result is the same. The big problem is that most stalkers, even when arrested and/or punished, can't see what they are doing wrong and this goes for grievers too, this is on the stalker/griever though and NOT on their victims.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
Where do you live that stalking is allowed and ok? It's a felony where I am.
Good examples of when spawn camping is not griefing.
Example of griefing with spawn camping
Johnny is bored, he's a level 60. Johnny gets his kicks going to the level 20-30 zone, picking a a low level victim, killing them and spawn camping them, over and over and over until they get fed up and log out.
He then moves on to his next victim.
Still not clearly griefing. As I mentioned previously, some devs see that as intended gameplay. See Crowfall. They not only say it's ok, they tell people who don't like it to wait for tests of less hardcore rulesets.
If the devs intend for this to be the way the game is played it literally can not be griefing.
He also undercut his own argument by using only FPSs as examples.
FPSs are focused on skill winning the day. MMORPGs aren't. A level 7 Hunter can't headshot a level 60 Shaman and get an instakill.
Take the spawn camping technique mentioned in Day of Defeat. If the spawn camping team also had swords and spells that do 10× more damage than the other team, I highly doubt the players would be as accepting of the situation.
I used FPS games because they're very straight forward and even the people in this thread should be able to see the developers intent.
As far as damage goes, the defenders have MG42s. They probably do more than 10x the damage of the allied riflemen in the boats.
The attackers can also use MGs, and the defenders aren't nigh invincible with high level epic gear. C'mon, I shouldn't have had to point that out. Don't intentionally leave out information about the game to help your own argument. Day of Defeat never limited attackers and defenders or their weaponry in such a way. The server admins could set the class limits.
Setting up an immobile machinegun on the beach is suicide.
The defenders are in bunkers a hundred yards away where you can barely see them, and need a sniper rifle to even have a chance of hitting them. Using a sniper rifle in the open is also pretty close to suicide.
Next excuse?
Lol, and yet you still intentionally fail to understand. There's nothing about that situation that's equitable to an MMORPG where a player can achieve stat domination before the fight ever starts. Stop being willfully ignorant.
And if you don't think snipers routinely neutralized MG nests in the original DoD by wall sniping, you never played it for any length of time. All they needed was one piece of cover tall enough to stand behind.
People on the beach, and especially just spawning in the boats are basically free kills who can't fight back. They remain such until they reach a specified point of advance. In MMO terms, that would be leveling up to a competitive point.
Snipers were not effective during the initial advance. After the riflemen pushed up and breached the sea wall snipers could camp on the beach and keep the bunkers clear, but during the opening portion of the map they were free kills unless the defenders were hopelessly incompetent. They spawned in full view of the enemy, had a noticeably different model and were an easy target while scoped in.
I'm tired of this political correctness filter, so I'm just going to be blunt. People who grief are mentally ill.
It even has a name: EDD, aka "Empathy Deficit Disorder".
Empathy Deficit Disorder was a tongue-in-cheek disorder made up to mock people who make up ridiculous disorders that describe completely normal human behavior.
I'm tired of this political correctness filter, so I'm just going to be blunt. People who grief are mentally ill.
It even has a name: EDD, aka "Empathy Deficit Disorder".
Empathy Deficit Disorder was a tongue-in-cheek disorder made up to mock people who make up ridiculous disorders that describe completely normal human behavior.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
DSM, APA, and entire psychlogy and psychiatry is just a comedy to anyone a bit educated in natural sciences...
No it is not, and I am shocked by how ignorant you are. You have no clue what you are talking about, absolutely zero and I don't even know where to start correcting you. It is as if the gardener walked in on a Neuro Science convention and acted like he was one of the attendees thinking he could bluff his way through conversations. I am almost embarresed by how big a fool you are making of yourself right now, almost.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
I'm tired of this political correctness filter, so I'm just going to be blunt. People who grief are mentally ill.
It even has a name: EDD, aka "Empathy Deficit Disorder".
Empathy Deficit Disorder was a tongue-in-cheek disorder made up to mock people who make up ridiculous disorders that describe completely normal human behavior.
Yes - I intended this new "disorder"
to be tongue-in-cheek...because of the growing tendency to expand
definitions of mental illness to encompass much of the normal range of
human behavior.
Not just a troll but apparently a Scientologist too lol.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
You have no clue what you are talking about, absolutely zero and I don't even know where to start correcting you. It is as if the gardener walked in on a Neuro Science convention and acted like he was one of the attendees thinking he could bluff his way through conversations. I am almost embarresed by how big a fool you are making of yourself right now, almost.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
Correcting me? You may start correcting Leon Eisenberg coining ADHD 'mental disorder' and before dying confessing it being a fictitious disease.
You may even start correcting Allan Frances, DSM IV chair comitee when he openly speaks how ridiculous the manual actualy is:
Vast majority of those so called 'mental disorders' are lacking any biological markers and are based on more than dubious studies. Psychology/psychiatry is just bogus science...proven again and again.
You have no clue what you are talking about, absolutely zero and I don't even know where to start correcting you. It is as if the gardener walked in on a Neuro Science convention and acted like he was one of the attendees thinking he could bluff his way through conversations. I am almost embarresed by how big a fool you are making of yourself right now, almost.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
Correcting me? You may start correcting Leon Eisenberg coining ADHD 'mental disorder' and before dying confessing it being a fictitious disease.
You may even start correcting Allan Frances, DSM IV chair comitee when he openly speaks how ridiculous the manual actual is:
Vast majority of those so called 'mental disorders' are lacking any biological markers and are based on more than dubious studies. Psychology/psychiatry is just bogus science...proven again and again.
Ohh that would be an interesting discussion, whether or not Psychology is real science. Unfortunately for you that discussion has already been had and Psychology belongs to the department of Social Science, just as Anthropology and Sociology. Unless you think these aren't sciences either which wouldn't surprise me.
I like your Google powers but really, you are factually wrong no matter how much stuff you link. So stop it, you are really making a fool of yourself.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
lahnmir said: Unless you think these aren't sciences either which wouldn't surprise me.
Of course I do! That is unless you add 'neuro' prefix or 'physics' suffix to their disciplines ie. neuroanthropology, neuropsychlogy, neurolinguistics,econophysics, psychophysics, etc.
lahnmir said: Unless you think these aren't sciences either which wouldn't surprise me.
Of course I do! That is unless you add 'neuro' prefix or 'physics' suffix to their disciplines ie. neuroanthropology, neuropsychlogy, neurolinguistics,econophysics, psychophysics, etc.
Just shows how ridiculous those fields are...
So you have an opinion, awesome, opinions don't change facts though. Ergo, you are still wrong. But good luck convincing others, they might be less knowledgeable, or more gullible.
I am also done with this little discussion as it is quite useless since we are discussing two different things. Thanks for the entertainment though, see you next round
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
>Wannabe psychologists diagnose "griefing" as mental illness >Find the perfect disorder to categorize it under >The disorder is fake and only exists to mock people who see mental illness in normal human behavior.
Please share more of your well thought out opinions.
You have no clue what you are talking about, absolutely zero and I don't even know where to start correcting you. It is as if the gardener walked in on a Neuro Science convention and acted like he was one of the attendees thinking he could bluff his way through conversations. I am almost embarresed by how big a fool you are making of yourself right now, almost.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
Correcting me? You may start correcting Leon Eisenberg coining ADHD 'mental disorder' and before dying confessing it being a fictitious disease.
You may even start correcting Allan Frances, DSM IV chair comitee when he openly speaks how ridiculous the manual actualy is:
Vast majority of those so called 'mental disorders' are lacking any biological markers and are based on more than dubious studies. Psychology/psychiatry is just bogus science...proven again and again.
But if we don't make up fictitious diseases how will the pharmaceutical industry ever get rich?
Comments
Killing someone repeatedly preventing them from doing anything, done for no other apparent purpose other than to irritate the other player is griefing.
@flybyknight - "Griefing is something that warrants a warning > suspension > ban.
I don't know, that varies game by game. Some allow it, some don't. Warning/bans are about the rules of the game.
Griefing is about the players behaviour which may or may not violate the game rules.
Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:
A. Proven right (if something bad happens)
or
B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)
Either way, you can't lose! Try it out sometime!
2. Gay people? Homophobe? WTF are you going on about? If you have unresolved issues around it, I suggest you don't bring them up here. WAY off-topic and frankly, THE most stupid statement I've read in this thread yet. You should probably do yourself a favor and delete that part of your response.
I hardly think you should be the one telling others about being held accountable. Treating competitive PvP like an adult IS being accountable instead of your childish whining, hoping some developer will bail you out of your own incompetence and fear of losing.
You may want to take a few deep breaths and stop posting tripe like the above before you look even more ridiculous than you already do.
~~ postlarval ~~
If the devs intend for this to be the way the game is played it literally can not be griefing.
I used FPS games because they're very straight forward and even the people in this thread should be able to see the developers intent.
As far as damage goes, the defenders have MG42s. They probably do more than 10x the damage of the allied riflemen in the boats.
The defenders are in bunkers a hundred yards away where you can barely see them, and need a sniper rifle to even have a chance of hitting them. Using a sniper rifle in the open is also pretty close to suicide.
Next excuse?
I found one, its called stalking. Stalkers just appear in the same social space as the victim. They can hang out in front of their house all day and take pictures that coincidentally have the victim on them. They can gather information on the victim or send them the nicest letters and emails. Nothing special on its own, some things nice even but the victim feels horrible in the end. Why?
Because they are defenseless
Because the intention shines through
Because the stalker doesn't know when to stop
Because the stalker can do it unpunished and knows it
Because it interferes and disrupts their every day business
ALL these points apply to grievers too. Now for the million dollar question: How do people in Real Life think about stalkers? Are they ok with it, are these normal people? Is it an acceptable thing to do or is there something wrong in their heads?
Stalker victims can't log out, don't get me wrong, i know that. But every motive and result is the same. The big problem is that most stalkers, even when arrested and/or punished, can't see what they are doing wrong and this goes for grievers too, this is on the stalker/griever though and NOT on their victims.
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Griefers know:
~Who to target
~Where to target
~How to take advantage of the situation
~Cover their tracks
~Systematically gank players in a zone
In fact, in every game I've played where griefing was a way of life; I've always been involving in the meetings by top guilds on how to maximize griefing to others outside the company of the guild as a measure to keep players out of the game and to limit the power of any potential player.
It was a way of life to gank a dangerous player until one of three things happen:
a) The player surrenders and leaves the game
b) The player surrenders and unconditionally gives his property away
c) The player surrenders and joins the guild that griefed him, then encourage the player to grief his old guild for failure of protecting him..
Do I blame the griefers for taking advantage of the situation?
No!
I blame the developers for creating games that promote such conduct, where human nature deals with exploiting any resource capable of winning in these games even if the exploitation deals with the oppression of others.
Such games are proof that developers do not playtest their games enough and do not patch accordingly problems in their games. Quality Assurance also fails as one of the jobs that QA has is to foresee problems in the design and make adjustments willingly and offer solution.
Do I apologize to players who were PKed a thousand times until they surrendered?
Not really.
Are we to blame?
Of course we are, as we planned and executed the plan against the player.
Is our execution of the plan legal to the environment and design of the game's rules?
Of course it is!
Who is to blame?
Developer is to blame.
What if the Developer Changes their Terms of Service Agreement to eliminate Griefing or Lessen it?
I can't sue you for changing your ToS agreement, but I can sue you for targeting out griefers by comparing both agreements directly and proving that the agreement change was done so to specifically target a group of players in an environment coded specifically for such behavior. Then I can make a count for each player who was banned for Griefing prior to the execution of the new agreement and charge the developer two separate counts for each infraction against a player.
This has been fought in courts before...and the players have won.
Best thing to end such a problem is to make sure the game itself is playtested thoroughly.
Worse thing you want are players to Chargeback. ^_^
Suppose a Developer says "We didn't know this would happen....we did nothing wrong!"
Sorry, but that does not hold out in court. Developers and Publishers assume all action and damages caused by the behaviors of the clients upon their system under their ToS. "We didn't know" is not accepted.
What is a solution to this?
Awareness...
Make it known to everyone what kind of game is being played.
What kind of developer is creating the game.
What kind of publisher is running the game.
Discourage such systems by refusing to take part in such a system because unlike what real life throws at us, we have the choice on which game we want to play and take part in. Refusal is not going to destroy our economy, it will however force them to go back to their drawing boards and maybe with a flicker of hope, actually make a game worthy of actually playing.
And if you don't think snipers routinely neutralized MG nests in the original DoD by wall sniping, you never played it for any length of time. All they needed was one piece of cover tall enough to stand behind.
― Euripides, The Bacchae
"I did not murder that person officer!"
"But we have evidence that shows you were there and did the deed. How do you explain it?"
"If you think I murdered someone, you are mentally ill and need mental help. I was in my basement playing a game called Griefer and kept killing a noob over and over. so I couldn't have murdered anyone"
"What time was that?"
"I'm telling you I'm no murderer"
"The time, what time frame can you say you were playing that game"
*the officer steps aside and tells his/her assistant that the Griefer is showing severe mental problems, and to write down he brags and beams at the thought of "killing" noobs over and over in a game*
"Well I can say your internet activity stopped between 2 am and 4 am, and started back at 4:02 am. Can you say where you were between 2 am and 4 am?"
"I'm no murderer officer! I never killed anyone in my life!"
*ten minutes later*
"Well we just found a camera and watched the tape that was hidden in the house showing you are in fact the murderer"
"I'm no murderer! I'm no murderer! YOU NEED MENTAL HELP OFFICER IF YOU THINK I MURDERED SOMEONE! I JUST LOVE KILLING NOOBS OVER AND OVER IN GAMES! DAMN NOOBS DESERVE TO BE KILLED! ITS PART OF THE GAME!"
and that is the typical criminal who even if 100% of the evidence is against him and there is absolute proof he is a criminal, he'll almost always deny the crime because they can not see themselves for what others see them as.
And often they make others feel like it is their fault (as in, this fake person I made up as an example in the post) saying the officer needs mental help, when they are putting it on others to avoid being the one who actually needs mental help
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
https://www.moddb.com/mods/skyrim-anime-overhaul
People on the beach, and especially just spawning in the boats are basically free kills who can't fight back. They remain such until they reach a specified point of advance. In MMO terms, that would be leveling up to a competitive point.
Snipers were not effective during the initial advance. After the riflemen pushed up and breached the sea wall snipers could camp on the beach and keep the bunkers clear, but during the opening portion of the map they were free kills unless the defenders were hopelessly incompetent. They spawned in full view of the enemy, had a noticeably different model and were an easy target while scoped in.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
DSM, APA, and entire psychlogy and psychiatry is just a comedy to anyone a bit educated in natural sciences...
https://www.cchrint.org/2013/08/13/prominent-psychiatrist-admits-he-helped-invent-adhd-as-a-disease/
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
What's this? A comment from the author of the article?
Yes - I intended this new "disorder" to be tongue-in-cheek...because of the growing tendency to expand definitions of mental illness to encompass much of the normal range of human behavior.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
You may even start correcting Allan Frances, DSM IV chair comitee when he openly speaks how ridiculous the manual actualy is:
Vast majority of those so called 'mental disorders' are lacking any biological markers and are based on more than dubious studies. Psychology/psychiatry is just bogus science...proven again and again.
I like your Google powers but really, you are factually wrong no matter how much stuff you link. So stop it, you are really making a fool of yourself.
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
That is unless you add 'neuro' prefix or 'physics' suffix to their disciplines ie. neuroanthropology, neuropsychlogy, neurolinguistics,econophysics, psychophysics, etc.
Just shows how ridiculous those fields are...
But good luck convincing others, they might be less knowledgeable, or more gullible.
I am also done with this little discussion as it is quite useless since we are discussing two different things. Thanks for the entertainment though, see you next round
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
That's what happens when you remove consequences.
>Wannabe psychologists diagnose "griefing" as mental illness
>Find the perfect disorder to categorize it under
>The disorder is fake and only exists to mock people who see mental illness in normal human behavior.
Please share more of your well thought out opinions.
~~ postlarval ~~