I'm not expecting COE to be able to meet the same standard, but in all fairness to Caspian, while he may not have been correct in the past, he's still got the nerve to publish new target dates, even if they too are likely aggrssive. Can't say the same for MJ or Chris.
What target dates? He just publishes meaningless dates that they are supposed to be working on stuff. Not when they will be complete. Vox Elyria was listed as the end of 2017. People will start to get in around April...
I'm honestly not trying to be a dick about this, but the dates he published are absolutely meaningless. Alpha 1 is supposed to be Jan,Feb,Mar of this year (T1) but they aren't even getting into ElyriaMud until April. And it's not just about saying HAHAHA you missed your dates. There are tangible impacts to this. When you run long it costs money. When you have no publisher and just laid off staff this is a serious issue. He absolutely NEEDS to set legitimate milestone dates and he needs to HIT them... that is the only chance they have.
V3 of the Website (Q3 2017)
ElyriaMUD (Q4 2017)
Alpha 1 (T1 2018)
Server Selection (T1 2018)
Settlement / Domain Selection (T2 2018)
KoE (T2 2018)
Design Experiences (T3 2018)
Alpha 2 (T3 2018)
Beta 1 (S1 2019)
Prologue & CoE Adventure Toolkit (S1 2019)
Exposition (S1 2019)
Beta 2 (S1/S2 2019)
Stress Test (Any paid account)(S2 2019)
Launch (S2 2019)
Also the other impact is obviously refunds. If MJ didn't offer refunds and was years late I would be all over him.... but as long as he says: If you have run out of patience you can get your money back... I think he doesn't get a pass, but certainly it puts him in a different situation. If CoE offered refunds then folks really couldn't complain all that much about the delays. But they don't. Instead it's like they say: Tough nuggies! We said Dec 2017 but we'll give it to you in 2020.... if you're lucky!
I understand why... given their current financial situation, if they offered refunds they would likely need to close up shop, but that doesn't excuse them from legitimate criticism about over promising and vastly under delivering.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
CU was called vaporware for a while as well, people claimed it would never happen, in fact you can find the same pessimism and hubris here on the forums regarding CU if you look, ye here it is, looking like it's coming to life after all.
Funny how that works.
Good thing these formites don't really affect the game, if they did, no game would get made.
Could you please site your source where someone in this thread said that CU was vaporware?
learn to read.
I never said someone from this thread, I said on these forums. And here you go, a whole topic about it.
Funny thing, I just checked that entire thread, not one mention if vaporware.
I did see reference to the term evaporate, (as in, player interest) perhaps thats what you read?
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
You know, you two sure like to fling a lot of shit for people looking into a mirror.
The only thing you're proving right now is that you aren't capable of reasonable debate. Your toxicity is the real enemy of MMO communities in general and you're so caught up in your pride you don't even see it. One day you will look back on your posts and cringe, wondering what you were thinking in spreading such needless vitriol.
Yup... if they posted anything like that on the COE forums they would be insta-banned.
Isn't it nap time for you yet? And lets be honest, you wouldn't dare post any of the garbage y ou say on the CoE forums. Because your lack of any sort of research would be even more apparent there. I wouldn't have to fight this stupidity because it would just get thrown back in your face instantly.
Oh my no, the only reason I don't post there is it would be like shooting fish in a barrel.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I'm not expecting COE to be able to meet the same standard, but in all fairness to Caspian, while he may not have been correct in the past, he's still got the nerve to publish new target dates, even if they too are likely aggrssive. Can't say the same for MJ or Chris.
There is an old saying "You only fail when you give up"
We shall see what happens. I really hope he pulls it off, not to silence his critics (as those people will never shut up no mater what) but to validate his supporters.
if it gets made, I hope to see you in game, unless it ends up sucking, then maybe we can play some other game, LOL.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, otherwise, I really don't understand why you brought CU up? One has no bearing on the other.
Sure they are related, CU's fan base and supports also suffered though the same kind of idiots and haters thinking they can predict the future and pretending to be an authority about a subject matter they really know nothing about.
What OTHER people said about a DIFFERENT game turning out to be true or false has no relevance here.
Its like me saying "people were wrong when they predicted there would be flying cars in 2015, therefore you're wrong about this"...
One has no bearing on the other.
Speaking of which, where the hell is my flying car? About 50 years late I think.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
As I said I have had multiple accounts here that got banned and these were: DrakeOrdanska. JustDrake. Barqudaemonblood. (or something like that) Davan Drakenhoff.
I always called these accounts out and never believed it when he denied being THAT drake.
Then he went as far as creating accounts with Slap's or my name to denounce us.
But hey yes I am paranoid for knowing that you people can't be trusted. You are always just outright dishonest.
Scroll back... guess the radar detector was right again.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I’m literally begging you guys now to make a new thread to discuss Harbingers, Slapshot, Cheetos or anything else you like.
Lets just all agree to move it out of the State of the Studio thread!
ya know, if you want a topic to stop, you first need to be willing to stop responding to it yourself.
Funny how you seem to always ask others to do what you can't.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I am more than open to a civil debate based on -complete- information. However, I have come to realize that that isn't possible here. ...
By "complete information" I guess you're referring to the "full list of official excuses" as to why not a single promised deliverable (i.e. Prologue: The Awakening (the SPG game), Kingdoms of Elyria (web-based game) and Elyria MUD) have yet been completed ?
All of which were supposedly going to be finished months before the original launch date (which is now ancient history).
But now that the SBS team is a bit smaller, perhaps they'll work nights as well...
Ok, let's go with this. If you are willing to have a -civil- debate with me?
What you call excuses, I contribute to the gaming industry as a whole. Name one game that has been created that hasn't missed deadlines or made changes to their platform throughout development for whatever reasons? Or one game that hasn't had to deal with a shitload of bugs before and after their launch.
SBS is taking a different approach to development wherein they are creating pre-alpha games to test backend content during creation rather than dealing with bugs after creation. To me, that type of an approach makes more sense. I have always expected that with the rope bridge approach they are taking towards development, that we wouldn't see content as quickly as one might see it in other games. That doesn't mean they have not accomplished many of the back end mechanics over the last couple of years. It simply means what they have is not yet ready for public release.
Is that a sure fired way for success? I don't know, but neither does anyone else. We will just have to wait and see what the outcome is.
Myself I would rather wait for quality content then have them rush mediocre unfinished content just to say they have produced something.
As for them having a smaller team? Any business out there sometimes is forced to make adjustments in order to maintain financial stability. I know, I had my own restaurant for several years. Why should SBS be any different?
While I am a big fan of the "rope bridge" development SBS described, I think the problem they have is that they are building the bridge from the wrong direction. When they first started with SpatialOS it was strongly implied they would be using the Unreal API and even though Improbable was and is strongly tied to Unity it was a good move to help push the technology forward. Their recent announcement that they would no longer be using SpatialOS apparently mentioned the javascript API was no longer a viable solution for them. This implies they have switched not once but twice already, on an area of the game that is vital and absolutely essential to any of it being completed.
Personally I would have no problems with delays, if that's all they were, but you can only survive so many delays as a business being going out of it. SBS' lack of VC support is more likely because they haven't hammered out the details of their core back-end systems yet and are instead progressing in design and front-end mechanics when the basics are still missing.
I think the list of deliverables were always going to be delayed or scrapped, and Caspian confirmed once on Discord that their release date was just for the kickstarter campaign and wasn't realistic (which upset me quite a bit tbh). But the real problem they're facing is that they don't have the time and money to finish the core systems that they should have been tackling first to secure the funding they'll need from VCs. It's not because they don't have the personnel, it's because they've been so focused on catering to their very active (and awesome) user base that they are doing too much on the front-end stuff in order to make something pretty to show off in an update. It just got to the point that I gave up on the idea of them willing to stop putting out the pretty in favor of the needed nitty gritty.
Unfortunately, I can't counter your argument for a couple of reasons. One, I am not a developer, nor a techy, I am a cook, so my input would be based solely off of assumption and personal belief. Two, what I do know is protected under the NDA and I can't share it with you at this time, but I am confident that it will become public knowledge at some point.
In all honesty, I was concerned upon receiving the news of SBS deciding not to use SpatialOS as well when I first heard about it. But after further researching the issues that SpatialOS is having with lag and other bugs as well as learning that this was not a spur of the moment decision for SBS, but rather it was actually something that they had been considering and researching for the last year. I decided that maybe SBS knows better then I do what they need for their game, and I am willing to wait and see what happens before passing judgment.
Slapshot said:
What target dates? He just publishes meaningless dates that they are supposed to be working on stuff. Not when they will be complete. Vox Elyria was listed as the end of 2017. People will start to get in around April...
I would also like to respond to this. Do you blame Caspain for not giving solid target dates anymore? If he gives a date and misses it then there is ammunition to say "See it's delayed again, he is nothing but a liar and a fraud".
So instead, now he isn't giving solid dates, perhaps by learning from his past mistakes and realizing things don't always go exactly as planned. Once again he is condemned for that decision as well.
Let's not forget, that yes Caspain is trying to develop a unique game, but that doesn't make him a God. He is still human and he will still make mistakes.
@MysticHaze Please read what I wrote again and what I was responding to. My point was that the dates now given are meaningless. Imagine if my boss asks me when the TPS report will be complete and I tell him I will start working on it Tuesday. What good is that?
As I said in The Way Forward thread. He needs to forget everything that came before. He needs to take everything he has hopefully learned and come up with reasonable and achievable milestones. Then he needs to hit them.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Shocking, out of all the bullshit, that alone would make me call up my credit card company. If I was 200 dollars in, I'd stay in it because I'm pretty well-off to have 200 dollars thrown away in a game for 4-5 years, but the moment I read the sentence where no more ETA's will be announced, I'm gonna make sure I get every penny back.
What you call excuses, I contribute to the gaming industry as a whole. Name one game that has been created that hasn't missed deadlines or made changes to their platform throughout development for whatever reasons?
I'm not developer either, but it doesn't take a dev to know that these generalizations only give excuses to the devs that think it's okay to blindly lie to their customers. Notice, I say blindly, because you're right any company can get delays, in fact it's likely they will. But a company that knows their time lines were garbage/bait from the beginning? That's not a mistake or oversight.
@MysticHaze Please read what I wrote again and what I was responding to. My point was that the dates now given are meaningless. Imagine if my boss asks me when the TPS report will be complete and I tell him I will start working on it Tuesday. What good is that?
As I said in The Way Forward thread. He needs to forget everything that came before. He needs to take everything he has hopefully learned and come up with reasonable and achievable milestones. Then he needs to hit them.
As I mentioned at the beginning of this State of Elyria, we went from a point of giving precise dates on internal milestones to not even providing information about which year we expected the game to ship in. That was obviously a radical shift in transparency, a mistake, and something we intend to remedy now.
That said, I don't think players expect or really even want exact dates at this point. In fact, I'm not certain our backers want to know when work will be completed. I think more than anything what they want to see is a clear sense of progress and an idea of what we're working on at any given time.
To that end, below is an approximate schedule - not of when we expect the work to be complete - but when we expect to be under active development toward a particular deliverable or milestone. Providing a timeline in this format allows us to have an open, transparent, candid conversation about what and when we're working on something, while still giving us the freedom to make changes sprint-to-sprint and change the dates of our internal milestones to suit our development needs.
For easy reading Q3, and Q4 means "Quarter 3 and Quarter 4." T1, T2, and T3 means "trimester 1, 2, or 3," and implies a 4-month window. S1 and S2 means "semester 1 or 2" and implies a six-month window of time.
@MysticHaze Please read what I wrote again and what I was responding to. My point was that the dates now given are meaningless. Imagine if my boss asks me when the TPS report will be complete and I tell him I will start working on it Tuesday. What good is that?
As I said in The Way Forward thread. He needs to forget everything that came before. He needs to take everything he has hopefully learned and come up with reasonable and achievable milestones. Then he needs to hit them.
As I mentioned at the beginning of this State of Elyria, we went from a point of giving precise dates on internal milestones to not even providing information about which year we expected the game to ship in. That was obviously a radical shift in transparency, a mistake, and something we intend to remedy now.
That said, I don't think players expect or really even want exact dates at this point. In fact, I'm not certain our backers want to know when work will be completed. I think more than anything what they want to see is a clear sense of progress and an idea of what we're working on at any given time.
To that end, below is an approximate schedule - not of when we expect the work to be complete - but when we expect to be under active development toward a particular deliverable or milestone. Providing a timeline in this format allows us to have an open, transparent, candid conversation about what and when we're working on something, while still giving us the freedom to make changes sprint-to-sprint and change the dates of our internal milestones to suit our development needs.
For easy reading Q3, and Q4 means "Quarter 3 and Quarter 4." T1, T2, and T3 means "trimester 1, 2, or 3," and implies a 4-month window. S1 and S2 means "semester 1 or 2" and implies a six-month window of time.
Really? Can you honestly say with a straight face that you agree that backers don't want to know when work will be completed? Seriously? Sure there are SOME backers that don't care, but I'd bet the vast majority would like to know when work will be completed.
The "roadmap" is meaningless except for providing an order that things will be worked on.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
@MysticHaze Please read what I wrote again and what I was responding to. My point was that the dates now given are meaningless. Imagine if my boss asks me when the TPS report will be complete and I tell him I will start working on it Tuesday. What good is that?
As I said in The Way Forward thread. He needs to forget everything that came before. He needs to take everything he has hopefully learned and come up with reasonable and achievable milestones. Then he needs to hit them.
As I mentioned at the beginning of this State of Elyria, we went from a point of giving precise dates on internal milestones to not even providing information about which year we expected the game to ship in. That was obviously a radical shift in transparency, a mistake, and something we intend to remedy now.
That said, I don't think players expect or really even want exact dates at this point. In fact, I'm not certain our backers want to know when work will be completed. I think more than anything what they want to see is a clear sense of progress and an idea of what we're working on at any given time.
To that end, below is an approximate schedule - not of when we expect the work to be complete - but when we expect to be under active development toward a particular deliverable or milestone. Providing a timeline in this format allows us to have an open, transparent, candid conversation about what and when we're working on something, while still giving us the freedom to make changes sprint-to-sprint and change the dates of our internal milestones to suit our development needs.
For easy reading Q3, and Q4 means "Quarter 3 and Quarter 4." T1, T2, and T3 means "trimester 1, 2, or 3," and implies a 4-month window. S1 and S2 means "semester 1 or 2" and implies a six-month window of time.
Really? Can you honestly say with a straight face that you agree that backers don't want to know when work will be completed? Seriously? Sure there are SOME backers that don't care, but I'd bet the vast majority would like to know when work will be completed.
The "roadmap" is meaningless except for providing an order that things will be worked on.
Well, I can't speak for all the CoE backers that would just be presumptuous on my part. But I can say from the responses to that thread that it didn't appear the backers had an issue with it at all. I can say with confidence though that from what I have seen in the CoE community, is they are not shy to speak out when they have an issue with any of the Studios decisions.
So if it was an issue with the backers why wasn't it brought up in that thread or another?
There are ALWAYS people asking when the game is due, when Alpha is coming, When KoE is coming, When land selection is coming. Do you really need me to go find specific quote from Discord or the forums?
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
There are ALWAYS people asking when the game is due, when Alpha is coming, When KoE is coming, When land selection is coming. Do you really need me to go find specific quote from Discord or the forums?
Of course, they are asking, they are excited to get into the game and eager to begin the Dance of Dynasties. I have asked a few times myself, it doesn't mean I am upset that they can't give me firm dates.
C'mon, you know the community as well as I do. You have even brought some of those controversial threads here. Do you really think if it was that big of an issue in the community that we wouldn't have a massive amount of threads complaining about it?
Im not sure if caspians discord response to dates are accurate enough, but beeing a gamer since UO, I dont expect dates, but more or less specific time periods. Ive participated in quite a few alphas and betas (including CU), and anything more specific than month-based I have personally never experienced on roadmaps. On discord earlier Caspian did however mention the upcoming period up to spring, I believe. Ill quote him;
""We're working on features of Alpha 1. Launch of Alpha 1 will actually be AFTER the first trimester. However, Pre-Alpha will be in the hands of players at the end of T1"
If that makes anything any clearer. I must say I personally didnt expect much more specific info than that, and if we use CU as an example, theyre not really much more specific. But didnt he in the livestream say the pixel based thingie was a few weeks away? Would he say that if it was a blantant lie? I doubt it as it is so close there would be no way really to explain it unless the company goes bankrupt meanwhile
Disclaimer: I don't follow this game nearly as close as some of you obviously do. I also had gargantuan doubts about it being able to happen from the jump although I also thought that it sounded awesome as pitched.
That's out of the way so question time... Is there anything at all tangible that they have released outside of supposedly presenting it to friends and family and high dollar backers? ie. Is there any progress that can be quantified by a layperson?
I've seen screenshots. I've seen videos. I know I like the art direction and they have good artists. I've read and heard where they state they are working on things. I know they are planning multiple pre-alphas. Has anyone actually been in any of these pre-alphas aside from friends and family and big money backers? Have even they been in them yet?
We know the current state of the studio and layoffs. They have made a wholesale change to the foundation of the game. They stated they have stayed away from certain investors and publishers and used lootboxes as the boogeyman. What did they present to those investors/publishers? Backers are effectively the current publishers and investors and, unless they've shown a whole lot more to them that the general public is not privy to there isn't a lot there to make me believe it is any more possible now, with funds already drying up and people being laid off, than when they met their crowdfunding goal and had an estimated timeline and a gleam in their collective eye.
A single player or smallish online game maybe, but for an MMO it is a tough sell. Especially in the current climate.
Disclaimer: I don't follow this game nearly as close as some of you obviously do. I also had gargantuan doubts about it being able to happen from the jump although I also thought that it sounded awesome as pitched.
That's out of the way so question time... Is there anything at all tangible that they have released outside of supposedly presenting it to friends and family and high dollar backers? ie. Is there any progress that can be quantified by a layperson?
I've seen screenshots. I've seen videos. I know I like the art direction and they have good artists. I've read and heard where they state they are working on things. I know they are planning multiple pre-alphas. Has anyone actually been in any of these pre-alphas aside from friends and family and big money backers? Have even they been in them yet?
We know the current state of the studio and layoffs. They have made a wholesale change to the foundation of the game. They stated they have stayed away from certain investors and publishers and used lootboxes as the boogeyman. What did they present to those investors/publishers? Backers are effectively the current publishers and investors and, unless they've shown a whole lot more to them that the general public is not privy to there isn't a lot there to make me believe it is any more possible now, with funds already drying up and people being laid off, than when they met their crowdfunding goal and had an estimated timeline and a gleam in their collective eye.
A single player or smallish online game maybe, but for an MMO it is a tough sell. Especially in the current climate.
The best I can do to answer your questions is offer you a link to SBS's most recent Q&A where at the beginning they can give you a descriptive outline of what is expected in the next little while.
I also want to add that according to the Studio when approaching investors they found that certain investors/publishers were looking for something a little closer to completion. That is that the game was further into development then what the studio currently has. I mean let's face it investors and publishers don't give a shit about the game itself, it is all about the return on their investment.
That being said it is my belief that SBS hasn't given up on trying to get investors but rather they are just waiting till they have something more concrete to show them.
It is also my understanding that the layoffs didn't happen because they have run out of money but rather to tighten their budget in an attempt to completion without using all their resources before that could happen.
@mystichaze Being a developer or not is largely irrelevant when talking about a game like CoE since nobody has any experience with a project as unique as it is. I'm intrigued about the insider information (and lamenting the loss of my access atm) but I won't press. In your estimation, do you think they will be able to come up with a prototype that would be sufficient to attract further funding with their current budget?
@mystichaze Being a developer or not is largely irrelevant when talking about a game like CoE since nobody has any experience with a project as unique as it is. I'm intrigued about the insider information (and lamenting the loss of my access atm) but I won't press. In your estimation, do you think they will be able to come up with a prototype that would be sufficient to attract further funding with their current budget?
haha.. Well, to offer an acceptable argument I would at least like to know what the hell I am talking about rather then making myself look foolish by assuming I have a clue.
In regard to your question, I do feel they will be able to produce a suitable prototype, but if that will get them an investor? I am not really sure. It is kind of a catch 22. Investors and publisher don't care about the game and are only interested in returns on their money. With SBS's current revenue model, it might not be enough for them. SBS seems to be pretty firm on the idea of not wanting to gouge their players with Lootboxs and a full-fledged Cash Shop. So, in my opinion, it might depend more on numbers, then the actual prototype.
The best I can do to answer your questions is offer you a link to SBS's most recent Q&A where at the beginning they can give you a descriptive outline of what is expected in the next little while.
I also want to add that according to the Studio when approaching investors they found that certain investors/publishers were looking for something a little closer to completion. That is that the game was further into development then what the studio currently has. I mean let's face it investors and publishers don't give a shit about the game itself, it is all about the return on their investment.
That being said it is my belief that SBS hasn't given up on trying to get investors but rather they are just waiting till they have something more concrete to show them.
It is also my understanding that the layoffs didn't happen because they have run out of money but rather to tighten their budget in an attempt to completion without using all their resources before that could happen.
That more or less follows my understanding of the situation. If they brought what they have shown so far to most publishers they would likely have been shown the door and not charged for the coffee they drank during the meeting if they were lucky. Many in-house development teams get projects pulled from them by publishers if they are at the stage this is at by this point in time. An outside development team that the publisher would have far less control over is just not that great a sell.
They really just need to get something in the hands of the public. Make a character creator to release to the general public and build hype and maybe donations. Like BDO did. Build up hype and get people talking outside the existing circle.
Right now it just looks like they've come to the realization that they might have taken on a bit too much with a bit too little. Turning the faucets off on the Titanic isn't going to save the day.
I still think the whole crowdfunding thing is being done reverse what it should be. Individual backers should be providing the push to get over the hump rather than off the line. If a team really thinks they have something, they should have the ability to fund it to some functional point either from their own pockets or via angel investors. THEN have individual backers provide the push to get over the hump and completed. I think that's the big takeaway for me from this first (maybe last) MMO crowdfunding push.
I don't think they're alone in their situation, but I don't really see them escaping it either unless they find a way to get more from crowdsourcing.
Comments
I'm honestly not trying to be a dick about this, but the dates he published are absolutely meaningless. Alpha 1 is supposed to be Jan,Feb,Mar of this year (T1) but they aren't even getting into ElyriaMud until April. And it's not just about saying HAHAHA you missed your dates. There are tangible impacts to this. When you run long it costs money. When you have no publisher and just laid off staff this is a serious issue. He absolutely NEEDS to set legitimate milestone dates and he needs to HIT them... that is the only chance they have.
Also the other impact is obviously refunds. If MJ didn't offer refunds and was years late I would be all over him.... but as long as he says: If you have run out of patience you can get your money back... I think he doesn't get a pass, but certainly it puts him in a different situation. If CoE offered refunds then folks really couldn't complain all that much about the delays. But they don't. Instead it's like they say: Tough nuggies! We said Dec 2017 but we'll give it to you in 2020.... if you're lucky!
I understand why... given their current financial situation, if they offered refunds they would likely need to close up shop, but that doesn't excuse them from legitimate criticism about over promising and vastly under delivering.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I did see reference to the term evaporate, (as in, player interest) perhaps thats what you read?
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
We shall see what happens. I really hope he pulls it off, not to silence his critics (as those people will never shut up no mater what) but to validate his supporters.
if it gets made, I hope to see you in game, unless it ends up sucking, then maybe we can play some other game, LOL.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Funny how you seem to always ask others to do what you can't.
In all honesty, I was concerned upon receiving the news of SBS deciding not to use SpatialOS as well when I first heard about it. But after further researching the issues that SpatialOS is having with lag and other bugs as well as learning that this was not a spur of the moment decision for SBS, but rather it was actually something that they had been considering and researching for the last year. I decided that maybe SBS knows better then I do what they need for their game, and I am willing to wait and see what happens before passing judgment.
What target dates? He just publishes meaningless dates that they are supposed to be working on stuff. Not when they will be complete. Vox Elyria was listed as the end of 2017. People will start to get in around April...
I would also like to respond to this. Do you blame Caspain for not giving solid target dates anymore? If he gives a date and misses it then there is ammunition to say "See it's delayed again, he is nothing but a liar and a fraud".
So instead, now he isn't giving solid dates, perhaps by learning from his past mistakes and realizing things don't always go exactly as planned. Once again he is condemned for that decision as well.
Let's not forget, that yes Caspain is trying to develop a unique game, but that doesn't make him a God. He is still human and he will still make mistakes.
As I said in The Way Forward thread. He needs to forget everything that came before. He needs to take everything he has hopefully learned and come up with reasonable and achievable milestones. Then he needs to hit them.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Shocking, out of all the bullshit, that alone would make me call up my credit card company. If I was 200 dollars in, I'd stay in it because I'm pretty well-off to have 200 dollars thrown away in a game for 4-5 years, but the moment I read the sentence where no more ETA's will be announced, I'm gonna make sure I get every penny back.
I'm not developer either, but it doesn't take a dev to know that these generalizations only give excuses to the devs that think it's okay to blindly lie to their customers. Notice, I say blindly, because you're right any company can get delays, in fact it's likely they will. But a company that knows their time lines were garbage/bait from the beginning? That's not a mistake or oversight.
Estimated schedule of development
As I mentioned at the beginning of this State of Elyria, we went from a point of giving precise dates on internal milestones to not even providing information about which year we expected the game to ship in. That was obviously a radical shift in transparency, a mistake, and something we intend to remedy now.
That said, I don't think players expect or really even want exact dates at this point. In fact, I'm not certain our backers want to know when work will be completed. I think more than anything what they want to see is a clear sense of progress and an idea of what we're working on at any given time.
To that end, below is an approximate schedule - not of when we expect the work to be complete - but when we expect to be under active development toward a particular deliverable or milestone. Providing a timeline in this format allows us to have an open, transparent, candid conversation about what and when we're working on something, while still giving us the freedom to make changes sprint-to-sprint and change the dates of our internal milestones to suit our development needs.
For easy reading Q3, and Q4 means "Quarter 3 and Quarter 4." T1, T2, and T3 means "trimester 1, 2, or 3," and implies a 4-month window. S1 and S2 means "semester 1 or 2" and implies a six-month window of time.
The "roadmap" is meaningless except for providing an order that things will be worked on.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
So if it was an issue with the backers why wasn't it brought up in that thread or another?
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
C'mon, you know the community as well as I do. You have even brought some of those controversial threads here. Do you really think if it was that big of an issue in the community that we wouldn't have a massive amount of threads complaining about it?
""We're working on features of Alpha 1. Launch of Alpha 1 will actually be AFTER the first trimester. However, Pre-Alpha will be in the hands of players at the end of T1"
Read more at https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/471094/the-way-forward/p3#j20sYpxm7yRqtSvi.99
If that makes anything any clearer. I must say I personally didnt expect much more specific info than that, and if we use CU as an example, theyre not really much more specific. But didnt he in the livestream say the pixel based thingie was a few weeks away? Would he say that if it was a blantant lie? I doubt it as it is so close there would be no way really to explain it unless the company goes bankrupt meanwhile
That's out of the way so question time... Is there anything at all tangible that they have released outside of supposedly presenting it to friends and family and high dollar backers? ie. Is there any progress that can be quantified by a layperson?
I've seen screenshots. I've seen videos. I know I like the art direction and they have good artists. I've read and heard where they state they are working on things. I know they are planning multiple pre-alphas. Has anyone actually been in any of these pre-alphas aside from friends and family and big money backers? Have even they been in them yet?
We know the current state of the studio and layoffs. They have made a wholesale change to the foundation of the game. They stated they have stayed away from certain investors and publishers and used lootboxes as the boogeyman. What did they present to those investors/publishers? Backers are effectively the current publishers and investors and, unless they've shown a whole lot more to them that the general public is not privy to there isn't a lot there to make me believe it is any more possible now, with funds already drying up and people being laid off, than when they met their crowdfunding goal and had an estimated timeline and a gleam in their collective eye.
A single player or smallish online game maybe, but for an MMO it is a tough sell. Especially in the current climate.
I also want to add that according to the Studio when approaching investors they found that certain investors/publishers were looking for something a little closer to completion. That is that the game was further into development then what the studio currently has. I mean let's face it investors and publishers don't give a shit about the game itself, it is all about the return on their investment.
That being said it is my belief that SBS hasn't given up on trying to get investors but rather they are just waiting till they have something more concrete to show them.
It is also my understanding that the layoffs didn't happen because they have run out of money but rather to tighten their budget in an attempt to completion without using all their resources before that could happen.
Being a developer or not is largely irrelevant when talking about a game like CoE since nobody has any experience with a project as unique as it is. I'm intrigued about the insider information (and lamenting the loss of my access atm) but I won't press. In your estimation, do you think they will be able to come up with a prototype that would be sufficient to attract further funding with their current budget?
In regard to your question, I do feel they will be able to produce a suitable prototype, but if that will get them an investor? I am not really sure. It is kind of a catch 22. Investors and publisher don't care about the game and are only interested in returns on their money. With SBS's current revenue model, it might not be enough for them. SBS seems to be pretty firm on the idea of not wanting to gouge their players with Lootboxs and a full-fledged Cash Shop. So, in my opinion, it might depend more on numbers, then the actual prototype.
They really just need to get something in the hands of the public. Make a character creator to release to the general public and build hype and maybe donations. Like BDO did. Build up hype and get people talking outside the existing circle.
Right now it just looks like they've come to the realization that they might have taken on a bit too much with a bit too little. Turning the faucets off on the Titanic isn't going to save the day.
I still think the whole crowdfunding thing is being done reverse what it should be. Individual backers should be providing the push to get over the hump rather than off the line. If a team really thinks they have something, they should have the ability to fund it to some functional point either from their own pockets or via angel investors. THEN have individual backers provide the push to get over the hump and completed. I think that's the big takeaway for me from this first (maybe last) MMO crowdfunding push.
I don't think they're alone in their situation, but I don't really see them escaping it either unless they find a way to get more from crowdsourcing.
As long as you don't mind being chided about the contract you signed. o.O
I'll gladly accept $235 worth of chiding. I figure I kept up my end as well as they did theirs.