Do Soulpacks = Lootboxes?

Slapshot1188

What we have been told:
Each base account will be granted 3 Souls on the server of their choice. Accounts can have souls on multiple servers, but beyond the initial 3 they must be purchased with Soul Packs.

These Soulpacks will can contain random unique souls, or ones with more previous lives.  Here is Caspien explaining how lives are the equivalent of levels in CoE

Now keep in mind that getting a 2-3 life headstart is like getting a 2-3 YEAR headstart since each life is supposed to last roughly 12 months in real time.


From Caspien:

What isn’t a soul? A way to make the game seem fair. In addition to the aforementioned, the soul brings with it a degree of randomness, as not all souls are created equal. Some have experienced more past lives, making them inherently more powerful

https://chroniclesofelyria.gamepedia.com/Souls


 Caspien explaining why lootbox soul packs are not P2W:





Sounds just like a lootbox to me.  You buy soul packs that come with a lot of "whites", with the chance of getting green, blue or purple souls.  Those souls may or may not match the skills you are interested in for your character.  Simply swap out Soul Pack for Llamas from Fortnite and "Soul Types" for "Weapons"

So perhaps we should not get stuck on the definition of "winning" and stick to Pay for Advantage.  In this case the advantage is a multi-year headstart in terms of the "level" of your character


So my question is 2-fold:

1. Are these Soul Packs actually the CoE equivalent of Lootboxes AKA Gambling Boxes?
2. Is the ability to buy countless lootboxes to get an advanced soul that is years ahead of the average one a big advantage paid for by real cash?
3. If so, does this fly in the face of prior statements about not going with Publishers because they wanted him to implement lootboxes? (see quote from State of Studio below)

 However, as we reached the end of 2017 it became clear publishers were disinclined to take the risk on an innovative game such as Chronicles of Elyria without changing our intended vision. Some publishers wanted micro-transactions, loot crates, or other features that prioritize revenue over player experience. None of these options are in the best interest of our vision or players.

To me it's simple:

1. Are these Soul Packs actually the CoE equivalent of Lootboxes AKA Gambling Boxes? Yes... blatantly so. Except instead of equipment it's more powerful characters that you randomly receive

2. Is the ability to buy countless lootboxes to get an advanced soul that is years ahead of the average one a big advantage paid for by real cash?  Indisputably. As Caspien even says above: not all souls are created equal. Some have experienced more past lives, making them inherently more powerful


3. If so, does this fly in the face of prior statements about not going with Publishers because they wanted him to implement lootboxes? (see quote from State of Studio below)  Absolutely. They are monetizing random (gambling) packs that contain in game advantages and "unique" souls...  Some might say that using these packs to allow people a multi-year headstart is a lot worse than allowing them a chance to collect stronger weapons or armor...

 

OrangeBoy

Semantics, even if he calls it something else, it's evident what the scheme is.

To me, it's not the fact they are present in the game, as long as the game ends up being enjoyable then I care very little about the ploys they use. It's the fact that they seem like they can say one thing, contradict themselves later on, justify the irony and paradox by using euphemisms on the point of contention.

Another example of this is how they call it Pay2Build . Again, it's not the tools, but the rationale.

I can think of the "door-in-the-foot" psychological term, you get people to give a little then you're slowly able to ask for more down the road. In this case it seems like the studio is asking for people to change their rationale and accept even the most illogical attempts at euphemisms

Whether it has worked or not can be answered by asking whether their game has any P2W elements on their discord or forums

LackingMMO

The game can be fantastic and I hope it is cause I would love a solid pvp game with politics. But when you potentially have a feature like this it is all about how it is implanted. Fun games can be torn apart by loot boxes and p2w features. It sounds VERY loot boxish to me, hope I'm wrong.

Ungood

Well it is RNG.. and it is Loot.. sorta.. not sure if that is enough for you to have a good witch hunt.. but.. feel free to sharpen the pitchforks.

AnOldFart

Do they look like loot boxes - yes. there is no other way to describe them.

Lootbox - a container with in-game items
Soulpack - a container with in-game items

So now are they pay to win?
I don' know is the simplest answer I can give. So instead I will ask the questions to answer that.

How are they purchased?

In game currency or cash?

What is you definition of winning? (I've seen this debated elsewhere and would probably need it's own thread.

Can souls be earnt or leveled up quicker if you play it?

What is tied to a soul?

is there anything unique you can get through levellng up that you can't get through buying the soul?

there is plenty of other questions but I'm not going to in depth at this time in the morning...

Renoaku

AnOldFart said:

Do they look like loot boxes - yes. there is no other way to describe them.

Lootbox - a container with in-game items
Soulpack - a container with in-game items

So now are they pay to win?
I don' know is the simplest answer I can give. So instead I will ask the questions to answer that.

How are they purchased?

In game currency or cash?

What is you definition of winning? (I've seen this debated elsewhere and would probably need it's own thread.

Can souls be earnt or leveled up quicker if you play it?

What is tied to a soul?

is there anything unique you can get through levellng up that you can't get through buying the soul?

there is plenty of other questions but I'm not going to in depth at this time in the morning...

Wait so you have to gamble with Soul Packs in order to get sparks of life or whatever its called?

AnOldFart

Renoaku said:

AnOldFart said:

Do they look like loot boxes - yes. there is no other way to describe them.

Lootbox - a container with in-game items
Soulpack - a container with in-game items

So now are they pay to win?
I don' know is the simplest answer I can give. So instead I will ask the questions to answer that.

How are they purchased?

In game currency or cash?

What is you definition of winning? (I've seen this debated elsewhere and would probably need it's own thread.

Can souls be earnt or leveled up quicker if you play it?

What is tied to a soul?

is there anything unique you can get through levellng up that you can't get through buying the soul?

there is plenty of other questions but I'm not going to in depth at this time in the morning...

Wait so you have to gamble with Soul Packs in order to get sparks of life or whatever its called?

Not for my understanding, I've just discovered the game and went onto their website to read up.

You get 3 random souls to choose from, these are like tour character slots.
You use a spark of life to put that soul into a character to play that characters life.

You can buy additional souls to:
1) increase the amount of character slots you have for alts.
2) if slapshot is right you can also buy the souls to have a random chance of getting a soul that's lived more lives (not sure what the point of this is yet though)

I am sure if I am wrong slapshot, mystichase or some other follower of the game will correct me.

Kyleran

OrangeBoy said:

Semantics, even if he calls it something else, it's evident what the scheme is.

To me, it's not the fact they are present in the game, as long as the game ends up being enjoyable then I care very little about the ploys they use. It's the fact that they seem like they can say one thing, contradict themselves later on, justify the irony and paradox by using euphemisms on the point of contention.

Another example of this is how they call it Pay2Build . Again, it's not the tools, but the rationale.

I can think of the "door-in-the-foot" psychological term, you get people to give a little then you're slowly able to ask for more down the road. In this case it seems like the studio is asking for people to change their rationale and accept even the most illogical attempts at euphemisms

Whether it has worked or not can be answered by asking whether their game has any P2W elements on their discord or forums

Ah heck, that's just ole fashioned "newspeak," been around for many years, well at least since "1984."

Slapshot1188

AnOldFart said:

Renoaku said:

AnOldFart said:

Do they look like loot boxes - yes. there is no other way to describe them.

Lootbox - a container with in-game items
Soulpack - a container with in-game items

So now are they pay to win?
I don' know is the simplest answer I can give. So instead I will ask the questions to answer that.

How are they purchased?

In game currency or cash?

What is you definition of winning? (I've seen this debated elsewhere and would probably need it's own thread.

Can souls be earnt or leveled up quicker if you play it?

What is tied to a soul?

is there anything unique you can get through levellng up that you can't get through buying the soul?

there is plenty of other questions but I'm not going to in depth at this time in the morning...

Wait so you have to gamble with Soul Packs in order to get sparks of life or whatever its called?

Not for my understanding, I've just discovered the game and went onto their website to read up.

You get 3 random souls to choose from, these are like tour character slots.
You use a spark of life to put that soul into a character to play that characters life.

You can buy additional souls to:
1) increase the amount of character slots you have for alts.
2) if slapshot is right you can also buy the souls to have a random chance of getting a soul that's lived more lives (not sure what the point of this is yet though)

I am sure if I am wrong slapshot, mystichase or some other follower of the game will correct me.

Sparks activate souls.
Souls contain “skill ramps” based on how many prior lives it has as well as what skills were used in that life.  Caspien himself said that some will be unique and also more powerful. Caspien has described lives in CoE as levels in other games. In this case a life is expected to run around 12 months.  To maximize your advantage you would want to find a soul that has as many prior lives as possible and also has the skills you are looking for.  This is why I compared it to Llamas from Fortnite.  You not only need to find a “purple” with extra lives, but it has to match the skills you want (damn I got a pistol but I want a sniper rifle).   I guess the “uniques” would be like finding a “gold” soul.

To make a character you need both a spark and a soul.

As for your other pay pay to win post.  Let’s skip the needless semantics and just stick to pay for advantage as I have framed it.  It cuts out most of the debate.

Wellspring

When you see a studio trying this hard to convince everyone that their game is not P2W, then it's most likely P2W.

They should just own it so we can all move on.

Edit: fixed typo.

Kyleran

Rhoklaw said:

I remember playing MMO's for the enjoyment of the journey to end game. Now it seems everyone want's to sell a fast track to the end to bypass the so called "grind" aka journey. I still compare this philosophy of gamer mentality to that of a person who reads the last chapter of a book or pays full price for a movie only to watch the last 10-15 minutes.

A much better analogy is it is more akin to skipping past all  the "rubes" standing in line for the rides at the amusement park because I bought the "fast pass."

Yeah, I've done it sometimes, I recall once at a Six Flags the upgrade cost me more than the ticket price. Was worth every cent.

People often view the level "grind" to be as entertaining aa standing in line waiting to get to the fun part, and often they aren't so wrong.

I well understand why they do it, just the price tag in MMOS can well exceed those fast passes I bought.

Now I'm not sure buying these souls provide any advantage, but if its possible to "win" a soul that imparts a bonus to skill or talent training speed, or a headstart even then Slaps point may well be accurate.

Slapshot1188

Kyleran said:

Rhoklaw said:

I remember playing MMO's for the enjoyment of the journey to end game. Now it seems everyone want's to sell a fast track to the end to bypass the so called "grind" aka journey. I still compare this philosophy of gamer mentality to that of a person who reads the last chapter of a book or pays full price for a movie only to watch the last 10-15 minutes.

A much better analogy is it is more akin to skipping past all  the "rubes" standing in line for the rides at the amusement park because I bought the "fast pass."

Yeah, I've done it sometimes, I recall once at a Six Flags the upgrade cost me more than the ticket price. Was worth every cent.

People often view the level "grind" to be as entertaining aa standing in line waiting to get to the fun part, and often they aren't so wrong.

I well understand why they do it, just the price tag in MMOS can well exceed those fast passes I bought.

I kind of get the analogy, but I don't think it's really accurate for this game.  Maybe a PvE one.  In this game starting out on your 3rd life means that you literally have a 20-24 month advantage in leveling your character which will make you stronger than people who start at zero. You are in direct competition with those people.  Not just combat skills, but tradeskills, harvesting, talents...  So time is part of it, but power is another.

Can we at least finally put to bed the talking point that all these Publishers offered bundles of cash but Caspien refused because they wanted him to put in loot crates?

A multi year skill ramp advantage is FAR greater than getting a sword or a shield...
As is buying your way to "unique" souls.
After all... swords and shields can even be lost, but you will never, ever lose the time advantage. Even if you perma-die it just means you next character starts with another life and an even faster skill ramp.

What is interesting is Caspien's comments on this: "What isn't a soul?  A way to make the game seem fair" . So that would seem to be as close to an acknowledgement as you will find.

Kyleran

I have to say after reading Caspian's comments above they are a bit disjointed and confusing.

I'm not really understanding how a sense of progression is maintained but I think it's transferred somehow through the souls? 

Is so, how does having a stronger soul impact a player's  "character", in terms of "skill" and "talent" acquisition and training?

Will souls with more past "lives", seasoning, experience or whatever train faster,  have a better chance to train new skills previously unavailable, or increase the likelihood of unlocking special "talents" somehow? 

Is there a coherent summary somewhere that charts out how all of this might actually work?

Slapshot1188

Kyleran said:

I have to say after reading Caspian's comments above they are a bit disjointed and confusing.

I'm not really understanding how a sense of progression is maintained but I think it's transferred somehow through the souls? 

Is so, how does having a stronger soul impact a player's  "character", in terms of "skill" and "talent" acquisition and training?

Will souls with more past "lives", seasoning, experience or whatever train faster,  have a better chance to train new skills previously unavailable, or increase the likelihood of unlocking special "talents" somehow? 

Is there a coherent summary somewhere that charts out how all of this might actually work?

My understanding:


Will souls with more past "lives", seasoning, experience or whatever train faster,  
Yes. That is the base purpose of having past lives.  It makes the skill ramps faster. You have a natural aptitude for that which you have done before.

have a better chance to train new skills previously unavailable,
Yes.  As you train higher you will enable creation of new items or skills.  

or increase the likelihood of unlocking special "talents" somehow? 
Not necessarily but clarification is needed on what "unique" souls are available in soul packs.  They usually use "talents" to describe magic but theoretically a "unique" soul may have some non-magic talent or feature that makes them unique.

cheyane

Man why try so hard it is an in game advantage ....clear as crystal...call it what you want but hell its P2W period.

someforumguy

What a dumb decision to sell those RNG soulpacks. Especially now. But maybe he is one of the few ppl that doesn't know about EA's Star Wars Battlefront II lootbox drama yet.

Slapshot1188

someforumguy said:

What a dumb decision to sell those RNG soulpacks. Especially now. But maybe he is one of the few ppl that doesn't know about EA's Star Wars Battlefront II lootbox drama yet.

I just think he needs to go all in or stay out entirely.  After all if you sell RNG souls that can give you a permanent 10% skill ramp why not sell packs with potions that give 20% for an hour?

Yes those numbers are made up but the concept is the same.

centkin

If it were just 10%, people wouldn't be as upset.

anemo

That's pretty brutal.   A good soul looks like it's worth multiple remorts/reincarnations.  That's  like a year or two of grind you're buying yourself out of there.

Slapshot1188

centkin said:

If it were just 10%, people wouldn't be as upset.

Have they given any info about the rate of skill ramp for each life?

Wellspring

Slapshot1188 said:

someforumguy said:

What a dumb decision to sell those RNG soulpacks. Especially now. But maybe he is one of the few ppl that doesn't know about EA's Star Wars Battlefront II lootbox drama yet.

I just think he needs to go all in or stay out entirely.  After all if you sell RNG souls that can give you a permanent 10% skill ramp why not sell packs with potions that give 20% for an hour?

Yes those numbers are made up but the concept is the same.

How exactly does SBS adding +skill potions in a cash shop make the RNG soul box situation any better? 

Idk about you, but for me, there is an inverse correlation between how P2W a game is and how much I want to play it. 

Wizardry

I don't like this design at all.Originally thought it was different unique but now i just think it is a bad idea.
Everytime someone wants to change the genre,they do it for the worse.There is nothing wrong with the original core designs,we just need to tweak and make them better.
I mentioned from day 1 that this souls idea was going to end up being a sort of p2w idea.
Just like pretty much every developer out there,the focus has been from day 1 ,trying to figure out the best way to make the most money,instead of the best game.

It is simpler than what most think,make a really good game without p2w,without stupid ideas and your game will do very well.

Slapshot1188

Wellspring said:

Slapshot1188 said:

someforumguy said:

What a dumb decision to sell those RNG soulpacks. Especially now. But maybe he is one of the few ppl that doesn't know about EA's Star Wars Battlefront II lootbox drama yet.

I just think he needs to go all in or stay out entirely.  After all if you sell RNG souls that can give you a permanent 10% skill ramp why not sell packs with potions that give 20% for an hour?

Yes those numbers are made up but the concept is the same.

How exactly does SBS adding +skill potions in a cash shop make the RNG soul box situation any better? 

Idk about you, but for me, there is an inverse correlation between how P2W a game is and how much I want to play it. 

Fair point.  I guess I’m just saying that if you are going the lootboxes rout with RNG soul packs why stop there?  IMHO that is FAR more unbalancing (literally skipping years of grind) than my potion example which would only last an hour.  

Its kind of like eating a 1/2 pound cheeseburger, fries and an ice cream dessert but pairing it with a diet soda...

Same thing with the supposed publisher story.  If (which I doubt) they really had a publisher interested and they wanted to talk about lootboxes why would SBS turn them down when they already announced “soul packs” that allow them a random chance at souls which are, to quote Caspien: inherently more powerful?

By the way, I am not saying potions are the answer... just a random example.  The point is more that if you are going the lootbox route, jump all the way in.

Or, if you really don’t want lootboxes then takeout the silly soul packs. 

AnOldFart

Slapshot1188 said:

Wellspring said:

Slapshot1188 said:

someforumguy said:

What a dumb decision to sell those RNG soulpacks. Especially now. But maybe he is one of the few ppl that doesn't know about EA's Star Wars Battlefront II lootbox drama yet.

I just think he needs to go all in or stay out entirely.  After all if you sell RNG souls that can give you a permanent 10% skill ramp why not sell packs with potions that give 20% for an hour?

Yes those numbers are made up but the concept is the same.

How exactly does SBS adding +skill potions in a cash shop make the RNG soul box situation any better? 

Idk about you, but for me, there is an inverse correlation between how P2W a game is and how much I want to play it. 

Fair point.  I guess I’m just saying that if you are going the lootboxes rout with RNG soul packs why stop there?  IMHO that is FAR more unbalancing (literally skipping years of grind) than my potion example which would only last an hour.  

Its kind of like eating a 1/2 pound cheeseburger, fries and an ice cream dessert but pairing it with a diet soda...

Same thing with the supposed publisher story.  If (which I doubt) they really had a publisher interested and they wanted to talk about lootboxes why would SBS turn them down when they already announced “soul packs” that allow them a random chance at souls which are, to quote Caspien: inherently more powerful?

By the way, I am not saying potions are the answer... just a random example.  The point is more that if you are going the lootbox route, jump all the way in.

Or, if you really don’t want lootboxes then takeout the silly soul packs. 

I might be wrong but:

It seems you don't like the fact the game has a p2w shop (and it seems you dislike any sort of p2w looking at your post history) yet you are here advocating for the devs to go p2w.

Also I thought you were a fan of the game (due to your sheer number of topics and posts on it). Now I am not too sure...

Please could you clarify what it is your trying to get at with regards play to win (and whether you are against it) and are you a fan of the game or ....

Slapshot1188

AnOldFart said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Wellspring said:

Slapshot1188 said:

someforumguy said:

What a dumb decision to sell those RNG soulpacks. Especially now. But maybe he is one of the few ppl that doesn't know about EA's Star Wars Battlefront II lootbox drama yet.

I just think he needs to go all in or stay out entirely.  After all if you sell RNG souls that can give you a permanent 10% skill ramp why not sell packs with potions that give 20% for an hour?

Yes those numbers are made up but the concept is the same.

How exactly does SBS adding +skill potions in a cash shop make the RNG soul box situation any better? 

Idk about you, but for me, there is an inverse correlation between how P2W a game is and how much I want to play it. 

Fair point.  I guess I’m just saying that if you are going the lootboxes rout with RNG soul packs why stop there?  IMHO that is FAR more unbalancing (literally skipping years of grind) than my potion example which would only last an hour.  

Its kind of like eating a 1/2 pound cheeseburger, fries and an ice cream dessert but pairing it with a diet soda...

Same thing with the supposed publisher story.  If (which I doubt) they really had a publisher interested and they wanted to talk about lootboxes why would SBS turn them down when they already announced “soul packs” that allow them a random chance at souls which are, to quote Caspien: inherently more powerful?

By the way, I am not saying potions are the answer... just a random example.  The point is more that if you are going the lootbox route, jump all the way in.

Or, if you really don’t want lootboxes then takeout the silly soul packs. 

I might be wrong but:

It seems you don't like the fact the game has a p2w shop (and it seems you dislike any sort of p2w looking at your post history) yet you are here advocating for the devs to go p2w.

Also I thought you were a fan of the game (due to your sheer number of topics and posts on it). Now I am not too sure...

Please could you clarify what it is your trying to get at with regards play to win (and whether you are against it) and are you a fan of the game or ....

No. Feel free to PM me if interested about Slapshot.

Feel free to comment on Lootboxes/Soulpacks 

Wellspring

Slapshot1188 said:

Wellspring said:

Slapshot1188 said:

someforumguy said:

What a dumb decision to sell those RNG soulpacks. Especially now. But maybe he is one of the few ppl that doesn't know about EA's Star Wars Battlefront II lootbox drama yet.

I just think he needs to go all in or stay out entirely.  After all if you sell RNG souls that can give you a permanent 10% skill ramp why not sell packs with potions that give 20% for an hour?

Yes those numbers are made up but the concept is the same.

How exactly does SBS adding +skill potions in a cash shop make the RNG soul box situation any better? 

Idk about you, but for me, there is an inverse correlation between how P2W a game is and how much I want to play it. 

Fair point.  I guess I’m just saying that if you are going the lootboxes rout with RNG soul packs why stop there?  IMHO that is FAR more unbalancing (literally skipping years of grind) than my potion example which would only last an hour.  

Its kind of like eating a 1/2 pound cheeseburger, fries and an ice cream dessert but pairing it with a diet soda...

Same thing with the supposed publisher story.  If (which I doubt) they really had a publisher interested and they wanted to talk about lootboxes why would SBS turn them down when they already announced “soul packs” that allow them a random chance at souls which are, to quote Caspien: inherently more powerful?

By the way, I am not saying potions are the answer... just a random example.  The point is more that if you are going the lootbox route, jump all the way in.

Or, if you really don’t want lootboxes then takeout the silly soul packs. 

I agree -- it would be nice if the game was completely one or the other. Either non-P2W so everyone started on an equal playing field, or over-the-top P2W so we could write the game off completely.

What they're doing, toeing the line between the two, is perhaps the smartest approach (although, as a player, I hate it as much as you do).

If they launched the KS campaign w/ no P2W elements, they probably would've had full community support, but would the extra backers have been enough to fund the game w/o the perks? If you got the same in-game benefits for the $59 package, as the $10,000 package, there would be less incentive for most people to spend the extra money. Also, since there would be no P2W advantages for buying the game early, everyone could simply wait to buy it at launch.

On the other hand, if they launched the KS campaign w/ over-the-top P2W elements (such as keeping the cash shop going forever), community support would've been much less. Most people would've written the game off as a cash grab from the start.

By putting enough P2W elements to entice people to back early, but not enough P2W elements to anger the community completely, they were able to have the best of both worlds. Personally, I would not have backed the game had they said they planned to keep the IP store in after launch. A temporary cash shop, although not ideal, is better than one that lasts forever.