What a dumb decision to sell those RNG soulpacks. Especially now. But maybe he is one of the few ppl that doesn't know about EA's Star Wars Battlefront II lootbox drama yet.
I just think he needs to go all in or stay out entirely. After all if you sell RNG souls that can give you a permanent 10% skill ramp why not sell packs with potions that give 20% for an hour?
Yes those numbers are made up but the concept is the same.
How exactly does SBS adding +skill potions in a cash shop make the RNG soul box situation any better?
Idk about you, but for me, there is an inverse correlation between how P2W a game is and how much I want to play it.
Same thing with the supposed publisher story. If (which I doubt) they really had a publisher interested and they wanted to talk about lootboxes why would SBS turn them down when they already announced “soul packs” that allow them a random chance at souls which are, to quote Caspien: inherently more powerful?
Regarding the publisher story -- I agree, I don't think we're getting the whole truth either.
The lootbox thing is a rather convenient lie to tell the community.
Bottom line, they couldn't persuade a publisher to invest based on what they have so far. Rather than saying that, they played it off as if they stuck it to the man and are the heroes of the story.
There are plenty of other MMO's in development right now that have no plans for lootboxes and received private funding.
It shouldn't be too hard to answer. Is it a variable reward container sold for money?
But are they PFA / P2W? Caspian said no because the outcome is variable and the player has no control on what they receive.
Well, outside being able to keep buying and opening more boxes I suppose.
I'm not sure if advanced skill training speed is that much of an advantage though.
I'm never really in a race with others as there's always players who can outprogess me.
Even if they do, for a time my avatar would have an edge if they are on a different timeline than me since they'll die off with no carry over and have to start over while I might still be at a peak point in the cycle.
EVE taught me its possible to build a skill based game which largely neutralizes training advantages, which is why I'm very interested in learning how it will work here.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Well what do your mean by no carryover? The skill ramp on their next life will be even higher. It goes up for each life. Caspien himself used the term: more powerful. He also compared the lives to levels. That’s the progression in the game.
Also, Unique souls need more descriptions.
But even more basic to me is the idea that these ARE lootboxes. So what’s the difference between selling soul packs that permanently raise your skill ramp by 10% and packs that have potions which raise it by 10% for an hour?
As stated before the numbers are made up but I just don’t see the difference other than to me the permanent soul pack edge is far more impactful to game play.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
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It shouldn't be too hard to answer. Is it a variable reward container sold for money?
But are they PFA / P2W? Caspian said no because the outcome is variable and the player has no control on what they receive.
Well, outside being able to keep buying and opening more boxes I suppose.
I'm not sure if advanced skill training speed is that much of an advantage though.
I'm never really in a race with others as there's always players who can outprogess me.
Even if they do, for a time my avatar would have an edge if they are on a different timeline than me since they'll die off with no carry over and have to start over while I might still be at a peak point in the cycle.
EVE taught me its possible to build a skill based game which largely neutralizes training advantages, which is why I'm very interested in learning how it will work here.
P2W wasn't part of the OPs primary question, just whether they're loot boxes. The answer to that seems clear. He went on about P2W and advantage, but those were actually rhetorical couched as honest questions. They were catalysts for explaining why he thinks the lootcrates are bad, and is asking more if you agree with him or not.
The issue of P2W is really complicated. Not only is it subjective, but it's very premise makes subjective moral assignations on what is okay.
Brian Fargo tweeted a few days ago asking why Battlefront 2's lootcrates were worse than any others. Most people missed the point and tried to explain why EA was wrong, but no one really answered his question.
If you're playing demographic are all killer achievers then the P2W question is more practical given the context. If the playing demographic encompasses all playstyles equally then the P2W issue is a red herring studios use for PR, just like they do when advertising "no loot crates in our game". Everyone stops asking questions at that point like, "If there are no loot crates how else are they trying to squeeze more money out of me?" Because if it's not pay to win then it must be okay for them to charge and do whatever else they want. That's sort of short-sighted thinking is what drove us to the destination we're at now with F2P, lootcrates, and P2W.
Good post, and I believe devs need to find the best payment model which ensures a games survivability while appealing to their target market.
What that could or should be is a discussion outside of this thread, other than in the context of if already selling a form of RNG lootbox, should they expand the concept post launch and if so, how much? (Cosmetics, resources, items of power, conveniences etc)
Or perhaps the answer you believe is to draw the line here, go no further, and seek otherways to monetize the game?
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
What a dumb decision to sell those RNG soulpacks. Especially now. But maybe he is one of the few ppl that doesn't know about EA's Star Wars Battlefront II lootbox drama yet.
I just think he needs to go all in or stay out entirely. After all if you sell RNG souls that can give you a permanent 10% skill ramp why not sell packs with potions that give 20% for an hour?
Yes those numbers are made up but the concept is the same.
Exactly the point and hopefully where we can keep this thread focused on.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
It shouldn't be too hard to answer. Is it a variable reward container sold for money?
But are they PFA / P2W? Caspian said no because the outcome is variable and the player has no control on what they receive.
Well, outside being able to keep buying and opening more boxes I suppose.
I'm not sure if advanced skill training speed is that much of an advantage though.
I'm never really in a race with others as there's always players who can outprogess me.
Even if they do, for a time my avatar would have an edge if they are on a different timeline than me since they'll die off with no carry over and have to start over while I might still be at a peak point in the cycle.
EVE taught me its possible to build a skill based game which largely neutralizes training advantages, which is why I'm very interested in learning how it will work here.
P2W wasn't part of the OPs primary question, just whether they're loot boxes. The answer to that seems clear. He went on about P2W and advantage, but those were actually rhetorical couched as honest questions. They were catalysts for explaining why he thinks the lootcrates are bad, and is asking more if you agree with him or not.
The issue of P2W is really complicated. Not only is it subjective, but it's very premise makes subjective moral assignations on what is okay.
Brian Fargo tweeted a few days ago asking why Battlefront 2's lootcrates were worse than any others. Most people missed the point and tried to explain why EA was wrong, but no one really answered his question.
If you're playing demographic are all killer achievers then the P2W question is more practical given the context. If the playing demographic encompasses all playstyles equally then the P2W issue is a red herring studios use for PR, just like they do when advertising "no loot crates in our game". Everyone stops asking questions at that point like, "If there are no loot crates how else are they trying to squeeze more money out of me?" Because if it's not pay to win then it must be okay for them to charge and do whatever else they want. That's sort of short-sighted thinking is what drove us to the destination we're at now with F2P, lootcrates, and P2W.
Close... maybe I worded it wrong and I should go look... but the heart of my point isn’t if lootboxes are P2W or Pay for Advantage. It’s to try and contrast the SoulPacks with his inference that he turned down publishers because they wanted him to include lootboxes.
Its not even if they are good or bad... it’s the view that Caspien is using them as a boogie man but then turning around and using SoulPacks which I think we both see are in fact lootboxes.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
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Maybe the publishers and studios took the same stance that Slapstick is taking (which is also how I feel about the matter, too). IE, "If you're going to lootbox with these "soul packs", why not just go all in full-monty with lootboxes, etc?"
I wouldn't be surprised if Caspien's reply was basically "Soul packs aren't loot boxes! Good bye!"
The thing about souls and having advanced souls as possibilities at the beginning is bad because people can get ahead in ways other characters have no chance at competing with.
When this was first broached it was supposed to be very rare in the beginning to get an only slightly advanced soul and as time wore on better and better souls would be easier to acquire. It sounded like a mechanic meant to allow people to start 3 years from launch with better than a vanilla soul to be able to compete.
Morphing it into a pay to win, get way ahead of the curve thing with enough money or luck (someone always wins the lottery on the first scratcher they ever bought in their life -- and those people are always the ones who are paraded around), is not a good thing.
The thing about souls and having advanced souls as possibilities at the beginning is bad because people can get ahead in ways other characters have no chance at competing with.
When this was first broached it was supposed to be very rare in the beginning to get an only slightly advanced soul and as time wore on better and better souls would be easier to acquire. It sounded like a mechanic meant to allow people to start 3 years from launch with better than a vanilla soul to be able to compete.
Morphing it into a pay to win, get way ahead of the curve thing with enough money or luck (someone always wins the lottery on the first scratcher they ever bought in their life -- and those people are always the ones who are paraded around), is not a good thing.
There is nothing that has changed regarding the soul pack since well before Kickstarter, except the fact that talents are no longer connected to the soul. It has always been known that within soul packs there is a chance you might obtain an old Soul. That includes the soul packs that are sold with the purchase of the game. "fair but inequitable"
What seems to be getting over exaggerated here is that yes, an old soul is more powerful but only in the skill that it has trained for in past lives. Not in everything!
For example, I acquire a soul that trained in blacksmithing for its last three lives. Great, if I want to be a blacksmith. This means my pc will train faster in blacksmithing. Perhaps giving me the opportunity to become a Master sooner.
However, if I want to be an alchemist then the fact that I am using this particular old soul is not really going to be a benefit to me. And I am going to have to train just as though I were starting with a young soul.
In Elyria skill lines are more specialized in comparison to other MMOs, no one Character can be proficient in multiple skills. And in order to become Legionary at a craft, you will need to focus on that particular skill for several lifetimes.
We also don't know the cost of soul packs. It the price going to be worth purchasing multiple packs in an attempt to find that old soul with the skill tree you are looking for?
As for as I am concerned trying to compare Lootboxes to Soul Packs it very premature and just another lame attempt to discredit SBS.
The thing about souls and having advanced souls as possibilities at the beginning is bad because people can get ahead in ways other characters have no chance at competing with.
When this was first broached it was supposed to be very rare in the beginning to get an only slightly advanced soul and as time wore on better and better souls would be easier to acquire. It sounded like a mechanic meant to allow people to start 3 years from launch with better than a vanilla soul to be able to compete.
Morphing it into a pay to win, get way ahead of the curve thing with enough money or luck (someone always wins the lottery on the first scratcher they ever bought in their life -- and those people are always the ones who are paraded around), is not a good thing.
What seems to be getting over exaggerated here is that yes, an old soul is more powerful but only in the skill that it has trained for in past lives. Not in everything!
For example, I acquire a soul that trained in blacksmithing for its last three lives. Great, if I want to be a blacksmith. This means my pc will train faster in blacksmithing. Perhaps giving me the opportunity to become a Master sooner.
However, if I want to be an alchemist then the fact that I am using this particular old soul is not really going to be a benefit to me. And I am going to have to train just as though I were starting with a young soul.
What you have described... perhaps unwittingly... is EXACTLY how a RNG lootbox functions
So I thank you for helping drive home the point. I was hoping you would weigh in at some point.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
The thing about souls and having advanced souls as possibilities at the beginning is bad because people can get ahead in ways other characters have no chance at competing with.
When this was first broached it was supposed to be very rare in the beginning to get an only slightly advanced soul and as time wore on better and better souls would be easier to acquire. It sounded like a mechanic meant to allow people to start 3 years from launch with better than a vanilla soul to be able to compete.
Morphing it into a pay to win, get way ahead of the curve thing with enough money or luck (someone always wins the lottery on the first scratcher they ever bought in their life -- and those people are always the ones who are paraded around), is not a good thing.
There is nothing that has changed regarding the soul pack since well before Kickstarter, except the fact that talents are no longer connected to the soul. It has always been known that within soul packs there is a chance you might obtain an old Soul. That includes the soul packs that are sold with the purchase of the game. "fair but inequitable"
What seems to be getting over exaggerated here is that yes, an old soul is more powerful but only in the skill that it has trained for in past lives. Not in everything!
For example, I acquire a soul that trained in blacksmithing for its last three lives. Great, if I want to be a blacksmith. This means my pc will train faster in blacksmithing. Perhaps giving me the opportunity to become a Master sooner.
However, if I want to be an alchemist then the fact that I am using this particular old soul is not really going to be a benefit to me. And I am going to have to train just as though I were starting with a young soul.
In Elyria skill lines are more specialized in comparison to other MMOs, no one Character can be proficient in multiple skills. And in order to become Legionary at a craft, you will need to focus on that particular skill for several lifetimes.
We also don't know the cost of soul packs. It the price going to be worth purchasing multiple packs in an attempt to find that old soul with the skill tree you are looking for?
As for as I am concerned trying to compare Lootboxes to Soul Packs it very premature and just another lame attempt to discredit SBS.
I disagree with the last statement, but allow me to explain:
Even if the cost of the soul packs are not worth buying multiple to find the right soul, it's still a lootbox type system. It's blind RNG reward for cash purchase. But, it's also well-implemented to the point that it's not exploitative and serves the intended purpose: to randomize the starting points of your players and build intrigue.
If the cost is low enough (or the chance of an objectively superior soul high enough) for it to be the best means of a player to get ahead, it becomes exploitative and detrimental to the mechanics of the game.
Either way, lootbox. One way = good and enriching for the game, another way = same old lootbox BS we've been seeing everywhere.
I disagree with the last statement, but allow me to explain:
Even if the cost of the soul packs are not worth buying multiple to find the right soul, it's still a lootbox type system. It's blind RNG reward for cash purchase. But, it's also well-implemented to the point that it's not exploitative and serves the intended purpose: to randomize the starting points of your players and build intrigue.
If the cost is low enough (or the chance of an objectively superior soul high enough) for it to be the best means of a player to get ahead, it becomes exploitative and detrimental to the mechanics of the game.
Either way, lootbox. One way = good and enriching for the game, another way = same old lootbox BS we've been seeing everywhere.
I don't disagree. However, as I stated in my post, I think it is very premature to determine either way whether or not Soul Packs would be equal to Lootboxes. Or if they will benefit/harm the game experience as you showed in your examples. As long as it is not detrimental to the structure of the game I have no issue with it if they are used that way. Just means more revenue for SBS.
Will players buy multiple packs trying to find that one perfect soul? Sure they might. Just like they might buy multiple souls and sparks in hope to create a character with the right birthday, trying to get and trigger an epic Talent. Will they succeed? Who knows. Would the cost be substantial? We don't know that either but I imagine it would be.
Players will always search for a way to abuse the system trying to get the upper hand in any game and we still have to go through Alpha, Beta and maybe even launch to expose any detrimental exploits that might not have been considered throughout development.
The question is did SBS create soul packs as a substitute for Lootboxes, meanwhile trying to pull the wool over our eyes? I don't believe they did. Soul packs have been around since way before Kickstarter and you get one with the purchase of every game. In addition, SBS has always stated that the game is fair but inequitable. Players don't and never will start out on an equal footing or be subject to the same game experience in Elyria, by design. Soul packs are just another aspect of that analogy.
My opinion is, if that is something a player isn't comfortable with, then they probably should find a game that is more suited to their play style. Where everyone starts out equal.
Hell, even the backers who are starting out as Kings, will not be starting out equal to one another.
I disagree with the last statement, but allow me to explain:
Even if the cost of the soul packs are not worth buying multiple to find the right soul, it's still a lootbox type system. It's blind RNG reward for cash purchase. But, it's also well-implemented to the point that it's not exploitative and serves the intended purpose: to randomize the starting points of your players and build intrigue.
If the cost is low enough (or the chance of an objectively superior soul high enough) for it to be the best means of a player to get ahead, it becomes exploitative and detrimental to the mechanics of the game.
Either way, lootbox. One way = good and enriching for the game, another way = same old lootbox BS we've been seeing everywhere.
I don't disagree. However, as I stated in my post, I think it is very premature to determine either way whether or not Soul Packs would be equal to Lootboxes. Or if they will benefit/harm the game experience as you showed in your examples. As long as it is not detrimental to the structure of the game I have no issue with it if they are used that way. Just means more revenue for SBS.
Will players buy multiple packs trying to find that one perfect soul? Sure they might. Just like they might buy multiple souls and sparks in hope to create a character with the right birthday, trying to get and trigger an epic Talent. Will they succeed? Who knows. Would the cost be substantial? We don't know that either but I imagine it would be.
Players will always search for a way to abuse the system trying to get the upper hand in any game and we still have to go through Alpha, Beta and maybe even launch to expose any detrimental exploits that might not have been considered throughout development.
The question is did SBS create soul packs as a substitute for Lootboxes, meanwhile trying to pull the wool over our eyes? I don't believe they did. Soul packs have been around since way before Kickstarter and you get one with the purchase of every game. In addition, SBS has always stated that the game is fair but inequitable. Players don't and never will start out on an equal footing or be subject to the same game experience in Elyria, by design. Soul packs are just another aspect of that analogy.
My opinion is, if that is something a player isn't comfortable with, then they probably should find a game that is more suited to their play style. Where everyone starts out equal.
Hell, even the backers who are starting out as Kings, will not be starting out equal to one another.
I'm interested in seeing how they eventually do implement it, it's a fine line when you're talking to gamers about RNG purchases.
Implemented delicately, it would certainly be a unique feature in the genre.
I remember playing MMO's for the enjoyment of the journey to end game. Now it seems everyone want's to sell a fast track to the end to bypass the so called "grind" aka journey. I still compare this philosophy of gamer mentality to that of a person who reads the last chapter of a book or pays full price for a movie only to watch the last 10-15 minutes.
The problem is everyone wants to BUY the fast track.. you can't sell something unless you have people who wanted to buy it to start with.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I disagree with the last statement, but allow me to explain:
Even if the cost of the soul packs are not worth buying multiple to find the right soul, it's still a lootbox type system. It's blind RNG reward for cash purchase. But, it's also well-implemented to the point that it's not exploitative and serves the intended purpose: to randomize the starting points of your players and build intrigue.
If the cost is low enough (or the chance of an objectively superior soul high enough) for it to be the best means of a player to get ahead, it becomes exploitative and detrimental to the mechanics of the game.
Either way, lootbox. One way = good and enriching for the game, another way = same old lootbox BS we've been seeing everywhere.
I don't disagree. However, as I stated in my post, I think it is very premature to determine either way whether or not Soul Packs would be equal to Lootboxes.
Perhaps you can help us by describing why you believe these are NOT lootboxes. Do not confuse that question with whether it’s contents are P2W or Pay for Advantage. Those are separate questions. A lootbox is a way of selling random items. You buy in the hopes that you get one you really want.
Also, as far as price, Caspien said each pack would be around $10.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
For one in a million I sure attract commentary from some of you like flies to honey In return I give you my own challenge! If I am just one in a million feel free to ignore each and every one of my posts. I bet you can't do it.
For one in a million I sure attract commentary from some of you like flies to honey In return I give you my own challenge! If I am just one in a million feel free to ignore each and every one of my posts. I bet you can't do it.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
For one in a million I sure attract commentary from some of you like flies to honey In return I give you my own challenge! If I am just one in a million feel free to ignore each and every one of my posts. I bet you can't do it.
Wait, what? You post some of the most random things.
What is your point? Didn't you copy that from another thread and aren't you responding to him here still?
What am I missing?
I guess asking for an actual explanation on why a soulpack wasn’t a lootbox was too hard. Anyhow... let’s not get off track here.
Anyone else want to defend soulpacks as being something other than RNG lootboxes or can we just agree that they are? Hard to get a 100% consensus on anything here but I think we are pretty close on this one!
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
For one in a million I sure attract commentary from some of you like flies to honey In return I give you my own challenge! If I am just one in a million feel free to ignore each and every one of my posts. I bet you can't do it.
I think it's pretty obvious that the SoulPacks could be considered a lootbox for sure, their very definition seems to make that obvious enough
The other questions I'd like to see answered are:
"What is the maximum amount of lives one of these RNG souls can have?"
"Is there a maximum you can buy?"
"How much do they cost?"
"What are the actual skill ramps that you get from said previous lives?"
As far as the sentiment of "If these SoulPacks are loot-crates (which they are) then why not go whole hog?" - Well, I think we could all agree that *most* people would be ok with someone buying an edge in blacksmithing vs buying gear of unbeatability any day of the week
I think it's pretty obvious that the SoulPacks could be considered a lootbox for sure, their very definition seems to make that obvious enough
The other questions I'd like to see answered are:
"What is the maximum amount of lives one of these RNG souls can have?"
"Is there a maximum you can buy?"
"How much do they cost?"
"What are the actual skill ramps that you get from said previous lives?"
As far as the sentiment of "If these SoulPacks are loot-crates (which they are) then why not go whole hog?" - Well, I think we could all agree that *most* people would be ok with someone buying an edge in blacksmithing vs buying gear of unbeatability any day of the week
I had a big post half types before I had to go out and just I couldn' be bothered finishing it, so imagine my surprise when I refreshed and someone had written the exact same thoughts I had.
my main point was if we have a maximum of 9 soul slots (so we can only but two additional packs) then it helps to reduce the p2w aspect.
I think it's pretty obvious that the SoulPacks could be considered a lootbox for sure, their very definition seems to make that obvious enough
The other questions I'd like to see answered are:
"What is the maximum amount of lives one of these RNG souls can have?"
"Is there a maximum you can buy?"
"How much do they cost?"
"What are the actual skill ramps that you get from said previous lives?"
As far as the sentiment of "If these SoulPacks are loot-crates (which they are) then why not go whole hog?" - Well, I think we could all agree that *most* people would be ok with someone buying an edge in blacksmithing vs buying gear of unbeatability any day of the week
I had a big post half types before I had to go out and just I couldn' be bothered finishing it, so imagine my surprise when I refreshed and someone had written the exact same thoughts I had.
my main point was if we have a maximum of 9 soul slots (so we can only but two additional packs) then it helps to reduce the p2w aspect.
Not at all. It would increase it. You can buy as many souls as you want but need a spark of life to actually activate them. Also... a smart person would simply use 1 account for each character. You would keep buying packs (around $10 each) until you got close to the perfect soul for what skill you want. They have not finalized what to do with unwanted souls.
But I'd like to stay on the original question of if these are lootboxes because I think that opens up much more conversation than just Pay for Advantage.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I think it's pretty obvious that the SoulPacks could be considered a lootbox for sure, their very definition seems to make that obvious enough
The other questions I'd like to see answered are:
"What is the maximum amount of lives one of these RNG souls can have?"
"Is there a maximum you can buy?"
"How much do they cost?"
"What are the actual skill ramps that you get from said previous lives?"
As far as the sentiment of "If these SoulPacks are loot-crates (which they are) then why not go whole hog?" - Well, I think we could all agree that *most* people would be ok with someone buying an edge in blacksmithing vs buying gear of unbeatability any day of the week
I had a big post half types before I had to go out and just I couldn' be bothered finishing it, so imagine my surprise when I refreshed and someone had written the exact same thoughts I had.
my main point was if we have a maximum of 9 soul slots (so we can only but two additional packs) then it helps to reduce the p2w aspect.
Not at all. It would increase it. You can buy as many souls as you want but need a spark of life to actually activate them. Also... a smart person would simply use 1 account for each character. You would keep buying packs (around $10 each) until you got close to the perfect soul for what skill you want. They have not finalized what to do with unwanted souls.
But I'd like to stay on the original question of if these are lootboxes because I think that opens up much more conversation than just Pay for Advantage.
I think you misunderstood what I am saying. anyway Has there been information to say you can buy as many souls as you want?
because my point is if you can only buy an additinal 6 souls then it reduces the p2w aspect of the soul packs unless someone wants to keep buying more copies of the game.
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The lootbox thing is a rather convenient lie to tell the community.
Bottom line, they couldn't persuade a publisher to invest based on what they have so far. Rather than saying that, they played it off as if they stuck it to the man and are the heroes of the story.
There are plenty of other MMO's in development right now that have no plans for lootboxes and received private funding.
Guess this is the first step.
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Well, outside being able to keep buying and opening more boxes I suppose.
I'm not sure if advanced skill training speed is that much of an advantage though.
I'm never really in a race with others as there's always players who can outprogess me.
Even if they do, for a time my avatar would have an edge if they are on a different timeline than me since they'll die off with no carry over and have to start over while I might still be at a peak point in the cycle.
EVE taught me its possible to build a skill based game which largely neutralizes training advantages, which is why I'm very interested in learning how it will work here.
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Also, Unique souls need more descriptions.
But even more basic to me is the idea that these ARE lootboxes. So what’s the difference between selling soul packs that permanently raise your skill ramp by 10% and packs that have potions which raise it by 10% for an hour?
As stated before the numbers are made up but I just don’t see the difference other than to me the permanent soul pack edge is far more impactful to game play.
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"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
What that could or should be is a discussion outside of this thread, other than in the context of if already selling a form of RNG lootbox, should they expand the concept post launch and if so, how much? (Cosmetics, resources, items of power, conveniences etc)
Or perhaps the answer you believe is to draw the line here, go no further, and seek otherways to monetize the game?
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Its not even if they are good or bad... it’s the view that Caspien is using them as a boogie man but then turning around and using SoulPacks which I think we both see are in fact lootboxes.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
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Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I wouldn't be surprised if Caspien's reply was basically "Soul packs aren't loot boxes! Good bye!"
When this was first broached it was supposed to be very rare in the beginning to get an only slightly advanced soul and as time wore on better and better souls would be easier to acquire. It sounded like a mechanic meant to allow people to start 3 years from launch with better than a vanilla soul to be able to compete.
Morphing it into a pay to win, get way ahead of the curve thing with enough money or luck (someone always wins the lottery on the first scratcher they ever bought in their life -- and those people are always the ones who are paraded around), is not a good thing.
What seems to be getting over exaggerated here is that yes, an old soul is more powerful but only in the skill that it has trained for in past lives. Not in everything!
For example, I acquire a soul that trained in blacksmithing for its last three lives. Great, if I want to be a blacksmith. This means my pc will train faster in blacksmithing. Perhaps giving me the opportunity to become a Master sooner.
However, if I want to be an alchemist then the fact that I am using this particular old soul is not really going to be a benefit to me. And I am going to have to train just as though I were starting with a young soul.
In Elyria skill lines are more specialized in comparison to other MMOs, no one Character can be proficient in multiple skills. And in order to become Legionary at a craft, you will need to focus on that particular skill for several lifetimes.
We also don't know the cost of soul packs. It the price going to be worth purchasing multiple packs in an attempt to find that old soul with the skill tree you are looking for?
As for as I am concerned trying to compare Lootboxes to Soul Packs it very premature and just another lame attempt to discredit SBS.
So I thank you for helping drive home the point. I was hoping you would weigh in at some point.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
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Even if the cost of the soul packs are not worth buying multiple to find the right soul, it's still a lootbox type system. It's blind RNG reward for cash purchase. But, it's also well-implemented to the point that it's not exploitative and serves the intended purpose: to randomize the starting points of your players and build intrigue.
If the cost is low enough (or the chance of an objectively superior soul high enough) for it to be the best means of a player to get ahead, it becomes exploitative and detrimental to the mechanics of the game.
Either way, lootbox. One way = good and enriching for the game, another way = same old lootbox BS we've been seeing everywhere.
I disagree with the last statement, but allow me to explain:
Even if the cost of the soul packs are not worth buying multiple to find the right soul, it's still a lootbox type system. It's blind RNG reward for cash purchase. But, it's also well-implemented to the point that it's not exploitative and serves the intended purpose: to randomize the starting points of your players and build intrigue.
If the cost is low enough (or the chance of an objectively superior soul high enough) for it to be the best means of a player to get ahead, it becomes exploitative and detrimental to the mechanics of the game.
Either way, lootbox. One way = good and enriching for the game, another way = same old lootbox BS we've been seeing everywhere.
Will players buy multiple packs trying to find that one perfect soul? Sure they might. Just like they might buy multiple souls and sparks in hope to create a character with the right birthday, trying to get and trigger an epic Talent. Will they succeed? Who knows. Would the cost be substantial? We don't know that either but I imagine it would be.
Players will always search for a way to abuse the system trying to get the upper hand in any game and we still have to go through Alpha, Beta and maybe even launch to expose any detrimental exploits that might not have been considered throughout development.
The question is did SBS create soul packs as a substitute for Lootboxes, meanwhile trying to pull the wool over our eyes? I don't believe they did. Soul packs have been around since way before Kickstarter and you get one with the purchase of every game. In addition, SBS has always stated that the game is fair but inequitable. Players don't and never will start out on an equal footing or be subject to the same game experience in Elyria, by design. Soul packs are just another aspect of that analogy.
My opinion is, if that is something a player isn't comfortable with, then they probably should find a game that is more suited to their play style. Where everyone starts out equal.
Hell, even the backers who are starting out as Kings, will not be starting out equal to one another.
Implemented delicately, it would certainly be a unique feature in the genre.
Also, as far as price, Caspien said each pack would be around $10.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
For one in a million I sure attract commentary from some of you like flies to honey
Read more at https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/472242/let-the-pre-alpha-cash-shop-items-flow/p6#61FL7hY0wBu8FYez.99
The challenge was happily excepted.
What is your point? Didn't you copy that from another thread and aren't you responding to him here still?
What am I missing?
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Anyone else want to defend soulpacks as being something other than RNG lootboxes or can we just agree that they are? Hard to get a 100% consensus on anything here but I think we are pretty close on this one!
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I think it's pretty obvious that the SoulPacks could be considered a lootbox for sure, their very definition seems to make that obvious enough
The other questions I'd like to see answered are:
"What is the maximum amount of lives one of these RNG souls can have?"
"Is there a maximum you can buy?"
"How much do they cost?"
"What are the actual skill ramps that you get from said previous lives?"
As far as the sentiment of "If these SoulPacks are loot-crates (which they are) then why not go whole hog?" - Well, I think we could all agree that *most* people would be ok with someone buying an edge in blacksmithing vs buying gear of unbeatability any day of the week
my main point was if we have a maximum of 9 soul slots (so we can only but two additional packs) then it helps to reduce the p2w aspect.
But I'd like to stay on the original question of if these are lootboxes because I think that opens up much more conversation than just Pay for Advantage.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
anyway
Has there been information to say you can buy as many souls as you want?
because my point is if you can only buy an additinal 6 souls then it reduces the p2w aspect of the soul packs unless someone wants to keep buying more copies of the game.