Lootboxes are gambling (Official Statement)

Vermillion_Raventhal

Hmm I do think the angle of collector cards is interesting.  I spent good bit of money on basketball cards hoping to get rookie cards of likely hall of farmers like Shaq.  Random chance at more valuable cards.  

Eldurian

Iselin said:

ohioastro said:

There is absolutely no point in discussing things like this with libertarian true believers.  

Nailed it. And for the purposes of the discussion of a Western country declaring that it is gambling they have nothing to say except straw man after straw man sprinkled with belittling Belgium and parents.

Because pretending the fact a couple minor countries declared it gambling makes it as closed case is a pretty asinine point.

Pretending like parents are more qualified to comment on social issues is also asinine. Any fertile adult can produce a child, it in no way makes you inherently more responsible or grants any level of wisdom on social issues.

Your entire argument hinges on these facts, bleeding heart appeals to emotion, and trite political phrases like "We can do better than this!"

But you twist your logic around to avoid facing your own hypocrisy.

Bring a real argument and we can discuss this like adults. Throw trite catch phrases and "think of the children" bullcrap and a logical argument become impossible.

Slapshot1188

Eldurian said:

Iselin said:

ohioastro said:

There is absolutely no point in discussing things like this with libertarian true believers.  

Nailed it. And for the purposes of the discussion of a Western country declaring that it is gambling they have nothing to say except straw man after straw man sprinkled with belittling Belgium and parents.

Because pretending the fact a couple minor countries declared it gambling makes it as closed case is a pretty asinine point.

Pretending like parents are more qualified to comment on social issues is also asinine. Any fertile adult can produce a child, it in no way makes you inherently more responsible or grants any level of wisdom on social issues.

Your entire argument hinges on these facts, bleeding heart appeals to emotion, and trite political phrases like "We can do better than this!"

But you twist your logic around to avoid facing your own hypocrisy.

Bring a real argument and we can discuss this like adults. Throw trite catch phrases and "think of the children" bullcrap and a logical argument become impossible.

No actually, my entire argument hinges on the fact that I think it's immoral to expose kids to gambling in their games.

You don't like that, too bad. Argue your heart out on a message board but change is coming and it's well past due.
We can do better.
We will do better.

Slapshot1188

Iselin said:

ohioastro said:

There is absolutely no point in discussing things like this with libertarian true believers.  

Nailed it. And for the purposes of the discussion of a Western country declaring that it is gambling they have nothing to say except straw man after straw man sprinkled with belittling Belgium and parents.

They're a desperate bunch just like any other zealot when their faith is attacked.

When their argument circles around defending the marketing of gambling devices to kids in games as some sort of "right" they have lost without anyone else even saying anything.

Besides... the real world is moving forward.. despite their protests and desperate attempts to cling to their "right" to use gambling devices on kids.

Iselin

Eldurian said:

Iselin said:

ohioastro said:

There is absolutely no point in discussing things like this with libertarian true believers.  

Nailed it. And for the purposes of the discussion of a Western country declaring that it is gambling they have nothing to say except straw man after straw man sprinkled with belittling Belgium and parents.

Because pretending the fact a couple minor countries declared it gambling makes it as closed case is a pretty asinine point.

Pretending like parents are more qualified to comment on social issues is also asinine. Any fertile adult can produce a child, it in no way makes you inherently more responsible or grants any level of wisdom on social issues.

Your entire argument hinges on these facts, bleeding heart appeals to emotion, and trite political phrases like "We can do better than this!"

But you twist your logic around to avoid facing your own hypocrisy.

Bring a real argument and we can discuss this like adults. Throw trite catch phrases and "think of the children" bullcrap and a logical argument become impossible.

1. Dude you're the dictionary definition of a RL noob: you have no kids much less have raised kids to adulthood like many of us here have and yet you think you have intelligent things to say about parenting or the role of society in protecting the young simply because you've heard or read a couple of things that sound edgy and cool to you... self-deluded much?
2. Most of us here are trying to have a discussion about what can make a loot crate system be considered gambling by a country. You OTOH, want to talk about your ridiculous straw men like parenting or even leveling in RPGs simply because you have no intelligent thoughts to share about the issue this topic is about.

In other words, you're full of shit and we all know it.

Eldurian

Slapshot1188 said:

No actually, my entire argument hinges on the fact that I think it's immoral to expose kids to gambling in their games.

Right, so "Think of the children!" bleeding heart appeals to emotion. You yourself agreed to the fact that trading card games such as Magic The Gaterhing and Pokémon are form of gambling marketed to children.

I never got into Pokémon but I played MTG in highschool and it hasn't instilled any kind of gambling addiction in me. It's infact pretty much the only gambling like thing I've ever done.

This isn't about children. This is about you. You being selfish. You not wanting lootboxes in the games you want to play. And you misusing government and bleeding heart arguments to demonize those who oppose what you want for yourself and only yourself.

You can do better. But you won't.

Vermillion_Raventhal

Slapshot1188 said:

Eldurian said:

Iselin said:

ohioastro said:

There is absolutely no point in discussing things like this with libertarian true believers.  

Nailed it. And for the purposes of the discussion of a Western country declaring that it is gambling they have nothing to say except straw man after straw man sprinkled with belittling Belgium and parents.

Because pretending the fact a couple minor countries declared it gambling makes it as closed case is a pretty asinine point.

Pretending like parents are more qualified to comment on social issues is also asinine. Any fertile adult can produce a child, it in no way makes you inherently more responsible or grants any level of wisdom on social issues.

Your entire argument hinges on these facts, bleeding heart appeals to emotion, and trite political phrases like "We can do better than this!"

But you twist your logic around to avoid facing your own hypocrisy.

Bring a real argument and we can discuss this like adults. Throw trite catch phrases and "think of the children" bullcrap and a logical argument become impossible.

No actually, my entire argument hinges on the fact that I think it's immoral to expose kids to gambling in their games.

You don't like that, too bad. Argue your heart out on a message board but change is coming and it's well past due.
We can do better.
We will do better.

So are gaming/collector cards immoral and gambling?  Many of those have real world value yet are targeted at children.  The idea is kind of the same.

Eldurian

Iselin said:

1. Dude you're the dictionary definition of a RL noob: you have no kids much less have raised kids to adulthood like many of us here have and yet you think you have intelligent things to say about parenting or the role of society in protecting the young simply because you've heard or read a couple of things that sound edgy and cool to you... self-deluded much?
2. Most of us here are trying to have a discussion about what can make a loot crate system be considered gambling by a country. You OTOH, want to talk about your ridiculous straw men like parenting or even leveling in RPGs simply because you have no intelligent thoughts to share about the issue this topic is about.

In other words, you're full of shit and we all know it.

Slapshot is the one who brought parenting into the argument. I'm just putting out there that the fact I have not opted to have children due to making a conscious decision to wait until I have time to raise them myself rather than letting the school system do that job for me actually makes me more responsible than the now majority of parents who didn't even find a partner before having kids.

Slapshot1188

Eldurian said:

Slapshot1188 said:

No actually, my entire argument hinges on the fact that I think it's immoral to expose kids to gambling in their games.

Right, so "Think of the children!" bleeding heart appeals to emotion. You yourself agreed to the fact that trading card games such as Magic The Gaterhing and Pokémon are form of gambling marketed to children.

I never got into Pokémon but I played MTG in highschool and it hasn't instilled any kind of gambling addiction in me. It's infact pretty much the only gambling like thing I've ever done.

This isn't about children. This is about you. You being selfish. You not wanting lootboxes in the games you want to play. And you misusing government and bleeding heart arguments to demonize those who oppose what you want for yourself and only yourself.

You can do better. But you won't.

Maybe you are incapable of following an argument. So I will make it simple for you even though I know I have said this multiple times:

I do not care what an informed adult does with their money.  I do not see any reason why companies should be unable to market gambling devices to ADULTS in their games. They should however need to comply with regulations (to make sure the games are fair) and have to post the odds.   And of course, it is incumbent on them to insure they are not selling them to kids, the same way a casino is responsible.


Simple enough for you to follow?

laserit

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Eldurian said:

Iselin said:

ohioastro said:

There is absolutely no point in discussing things like this with libertarian true believers.  

Nailed it. And for the purposes of the discussion of a Western country declaring that it is gambling they have nothing to say except straw man after straw man sprinkled with belittling Belgium and parents.

Because pretending the fact a couple minor countries declared it gambling makes it as closed case is a pretty asinine point.

Pretending like parents are more qualified to comment on social issues is also asinine. Any fertile adult can produce a child, it in no way makes you inherently more responsible or grants any level of wisdom on social issues.

Your entire argument hinges on these facts, bleeding heart appeals to emotion, and trite political phrases like "We can do better than this!"

But you twist your logic around to avoid facing your own hypocrisy.

Bring a real argument and we can discuss this like adults. Throw trite catch phrases and "think of the children" bullcrap and a logical argument become impossible.

No actually, my entire argument hinges on the fact that I think it's immoral to expose kids to gambling in their games.

You don't like that, too bad. Argue your heart out on a message board but change is coming and it's well past due.
We can do better.
We will do better.

So are gaming/collector cards immoral and gambling?  Many of those have real world value yet are targeted at children.  The idea is kind of the same.

IMHO now a days it is kind of the same.

It's kind of sad really, when I was a kid a pack of three cards with a stick of gum cost a nickel. They were just innocent fun.

Now whats a pack cost?

TalulaRose

I look at it this way.

If someone wants to smoke then they pay for their own medical bills. Why should I have to pay because they made a stupid decision.

If someone wants to gamble then let them get themselves out of debt when it becomes an addiction. No more tax money for gambling addiction period. When they become homeless no shelters or any support. 

If someone is big enough to ruin their lives and their children's then why should everyone else have to pay tax to fix their choice.

We all know personal accountability is few and far between so I am in favor of putting a stop to it before we need social programs to deal with the fallout.

Eldurian

Slapshot1188 said:

Maybe you are incapable of following an argument. So I will make it simple for you even though I know I have said this multiple times:

I do not care what an informed adult does with their money.  I do not see any reason why companies should be unable to market gambling devices to ADULTS in their games. They should however need to comply with regulations (to make sure the games are fair) and have to post the odds.   And of course, it is incumbent on them to insure they are not selling them to kids, the same way a casino is responsible.


Simple enough for you to follow?

I follow the reasons you say you don't support this but I also track the fact that you go to every subforum on these boards and rail against their monetization methods.

I am straight up calling you a liar.

This is about you, not children. You're masquerading under another cause to give the appearance of nobility where there is none to be found.

Slapshot1188

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Eldurian said:

Iselin said:

ohioastro said:

There is absolutely no point in discussing things like this with libertarian true believers.  

Nailed it. And for the purposes of the discussion of a Western country declaring that it is gambling they have nothing to say except straw man after straw man sprinkled with belittling Belgium and parents.

Because pretending the fact a couple minor countries declared it gambling makes it as closed case is a pretty asinine point.

Pretending like parents are more qualified to comment on social issues is also asinine. Any fertile adult can produce a child, it in no way makes you inherently more responsible or grants any level of wisdom on social issues.

Your entire argument hinges on these facts, bleeding heart appeals to emotion, and trite political phrases like "We can do better than this!"

But you twist your logic around to avoid facing your own hypocrisy.

Bring a real argument and we can discuss this like adults. Throw trite catch phrases and "think of the children" bullcrap and a logical argument become impossible.

No actually, my entire argument hinges on the fact that I think it's immoral to expose kids to gambling in their games.

You don't like that, too bad. Argue your heart out on a message board but change is coming and it's well past due.
We can do better.
We will do better.

So are gaming/collector cards immoral and gambling?  Many of those have real world value yet are targeted at children.  The idea is kind of the same.

I don't know.  I think they could be.  I played MTG as a kid and I certainly collected baseball cards but it could certainly be looked at in the same way as at least SOME lootboxes.  But that's a separate topic.  If someone wants to start a campaign about CCGs... I'd look into it deeper but in this case we are purely talking about lootboxes in games.

Because I did something or it's always been done does not mean it's right or wrong.  Smoking and Drinking were viewed differently years ago than they are now. Adults can certainly partake as they wish, but I think universally we now agree it's a bad idea for kids.

Slapshot1188

Eldurian said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Maybe you are incapable of following an argument. So I will make it simple for you even though I know I have said this multiple times:

I do not care what an informed adult does with their money.  I do not see any reason why companies should be unable to market gambling devices to ADULTS in their games. They should however need to comply with regulations (to make sure the games are fair) and have to post the odds.   And of course, it is incumbent on them to insure they are not selling them to kids, the same way a casino is responsible.


Simple enough for you to follow?

I follow the reasons you say you don't support this but I also track the fact that you go to every subforum on these boards and rail against their monetization methods.

I am straight up calling you a liar.

This is about you, not children. You're masquerading under another cause to give the appearance of nobility where there is none to be found.

Well, I'll let the posts stand for themselves.  You have obviously lost the argument and are resorting to name calling and silly memes.   Its OK.  The world is moving forward.

We can do better.
We will do better.

TalulaRose

You can go down to your local card store and sell your nice shiny foil card for money.

Try taking that digital pony with sparkles you got in a loot box to the card store to sell.

Iselin

Eldurian said:

Iselin said:

1. Dude you're the dictionary definition of a RL noob: you have no kids much less have raised kids to adulthood like many of us here have and yet you think you have intelligent things to say about parenting or the role of society in protecting the young simply because you've heard or read a couple of things that sound edgy and cool to you... self-deluded much?
2. Most of us here are trying to have a discussion about what can make a loot crate system be considered gambling by a country. You OTOH, want to talk about your ridiculous straw men like parenting or even leveling in RPGs simply because you have no intelligent thoughts to share about the issue this topic is about.

In other words, you're full of shit and we all know it.

Slapshot is the one who brought parenting into the argument. I'm just putting out there that the fact I have not opted to have children due to making a conscious decision to wait until I have time to raise them myself rather than letting the school system do that job for me actually makes me more responsible than the now majority of parents who didn't even find a partner before having kids.

Prepare to have your mind blown when you realize you can't keep your kids under your control and supervision 24/7 and that some people out there will try to take advantage of them.

laserit

Eldurian said:

Iselin said:

1. Dude you're the dictionary definition of a RL noob: you have no kids much less have raised kids to adulthood like many of us here have and yet you think you have intelligent things to say about parenting or the role of society in protecting the young simply because you've heard or read a couple of things that sound edgy and cool to you... self-deluded much?
2. Most of us here are trying to have a discussion about what can make a loot crate system be considered gambling by a country. You OTOH, want to talk about your ridiculous straw men like parenting or even leveling in RPGs simply because you have no intelligent thoughts to share about the issue this topic is about.

In other words, you're full of shit and we all know it.

Slapshot is the one who brought parenting into the argument. I'm just putting out there that the fact I have not opted to have children due to making a conscious decision to wait until I have time to raise them myself rather than letting the school system do that job for me actually makes me more responsible than the now majority of parents who didn't even find a partner before having kids.

Responsible adults who have kids and bills to pay don't have the time or money to waste on loot box crap.

I wish I could get some of the time back that I spent running a business. I use to go camping with a generator so I could take my desktop and make cad models while we were away so my kids could have some form of a holiday. This is back in the 486 days.

My parents back in the sixties worked their asses off. They didn't have a lot of time for me either and it wasn't because they were having a good time.

There are regulations that I have to abide by that keep me from taking unfair advantage of you. Governments don't pre regulate. Regulations normally come about by industry wide abuses, that industry was not able or willing to regulate themselves.

Slapshot1188

Iselin said:

Eldurian said:

Iselin said:

1. Dude you're the dictionary definition of a RL noob: you have no kids much less have raised kids to adulthood like many of us here have and yet you think you have intelligent things to say about parenting or the role of society in protecting the young simply because you've heard or read a couple of things that sound edgy and cool to you... self-deluded much?
2. Most of us here are trying to have a discussion about what can make a loot crate system be considered gambling by a country. You OTOH, want to talk about your ridiculous straw men like parenting or even leveling in RPGs simply because you have no intelligent thoughts to share about the issue this topic is about.

In other words, you're full of shit and we all know it.

Slapshot is the one who brought parenting into the argument. I'm just putting out there that the fact I have not opted to have children due to making a conscious decision to wait until I have time to raise them myself rather than letting the school system do that job for me actually makes me more responsible than the now majority of parents who didn't even find a partner before having kids.

Prepare to have your mind blown when you realize you can't keep your kids under your control and supervision 24/7 and that some people out there will try to take advantage of them.

Well of course... not only is his statement wrong (I spoke about kids in general and he decided to rail about parenting) but everyone should understand such a simple concept.  It's like the kid still going to school has figured out the secret to life on the sofa because he has a girlfriend.  I'm sure that's the first time this has ever happened in human existence.  We will all be saved.

Hint-  I met and dated my wife when I was 17.  I got married at 26.  First kid at 28.  

Like, that's not unique?  Who woulda known...


If only I knew now what I knew when I was 22... I'd be all set 

Eldurian

laserit said:

Eldurian said:

Slapshot is the one who brought parenting into the argument. I'm just putting out there that the fact I have not opted to have children due to making a conscious decision to wait until I have time to raise them myself rather than letting the school system do that job for me actually makes me more responsible than the now majority of parents who didn't even find a partner before having kids.

Responsible adults who have kids and bills to pay don't have the time or money to waste on loot box crap.

Neither do I, because I personally make a choice not to. I think loot boxes are dumb and a bad choice. There are a lot of things that I think are dumb that I don't think should be illegal. 

To be clear I'm not so much arguing against loot boxes in particular, as I am arguing against the general attitude of people who want to use government to control each other's vices or inflict the fact they can't control their children on adults trying to enjoy their hobbies.

"It is easy to dismiss video games as pointless activities that only teenagers indulge in. The truth is that the average age of MMORPG players is around 26. In fact, only 25% of MMORPG players are teenagers. About 50% of MMORPG players work full-time. About 36% of players are married, and 22% have children. So the MMORPG demographic is fairly diverse, including high-school students, college students, early professionals, middle-aged home-makers, as well as retirees. In other words, MMORPGs do not only appeal to a youth subculture."

In other words, 75% of MMO players are legal adults. These games aren't marketed at children, they are marketed at gamers, a demographic primarily comprised of adults. If you don't like the content in them, don't let your kids play them.

Iselin

Eldurian said:

I am arguing against the general attitude of people who want to use government to control each other's vices or inflict the fact they can't control their children on adults trying to enjoy their hobbies.

The fact that you don't even understand that you're setting up a false dichotomy with that statement tells us that you have no real understanding of the role of society in addition to parenting and personal responsibility. It's not as simple as the either / or you seem to think it is.

It's like you're saying there should be no laws against breaking and entering because well brought up, responsible people shouldn't do it.

Eldurian

Iselin said:

Eldurian said:

Iselin said:

1. Dude you're the dictionary definition of a RL noob: you have no kids much less have raised kids to adulthood like many of us here have and yet you think you have intelligent things to say about parenting or the role of society in protecting the young simply because you've heard or read a couple of things that sound edgy and cool to you... self-deluded much?
2. Most of us here are trying to have a discussion about what can make a loot crate system be considered gambling by a country. You OTOH, want to talk about your ridiculous straw men like parenting or even leveling in RPGs simply because you have no intelligent thoughts to share about the issue this topic is about.

In other words, you're full of shit and we all know it.

Slapshot is the one who brought parenting into the argument. I'm just putting out there that the fact I have not opted to have children due to making a conscious decision to wait until I have time to raise them myself rather than letting the school system do that job for me actually makes me more responsible than the now majority of parents who didn't even find a partner before having kids.

Prepare to have your mind blown when you realize you can't keep your kids under your control and supervision 24/7 and that some people out there will try to take advantage of them.

Prepare to have you mind blown when you realize the government does little if anything to protect them from that.

Lets do a quick poll:

Who here never drank until 21?
Who here never looked at porn until 18?
Who here never smoked weed while it was illegal in their state? 
Who here has never casually gambled with their friends?

My god, it's almost like the parent's have to raise their kids with common sense and hope for the best rather than relying on the government to be their parent whenever they aren't home.

Slapshot1188

Eldurian said:

laserit said:

Eldurian said:

Slapshot is the one who brought parenting into the argument. I'm just putting out there that the fact I have not opted to have children due to making a conscious decision to wait until I have time to raise them myself rather than letting the school system do that job for me actually makes me more responsible than the now majority of parents who didn't even find a partner before having kids.

Responsible adults who have kids and bills to pay don't have the time or money to waste on loot box crap.

Neither do I, because I personally make a choice not to. I think loot boxes are dumb and a bad choice. There are a lot of things that I think are dumb that I don't think should be illegal. 

To be clear I'm not so much arguing against loot boxes in particular, as I am arguing against the general attitude of people who want to use government to control each other's vices or inflict the fact they can't control their children on adults trying to enjoy their hobbies.

"It is easy to dismiss video games as pointless activities that only teenagers indulge in. The truth is that the average age of MMORPG players is around 26. In fact, only 25% of MMORPG players are teenagers. About 50% of MMORPG players work full-time. About 36% of players are married, and 22% have children. So the MMORPG demographic is fairly diverse, including high-school students, college students, early professionals, middle-aged home-makers, as well as retirees. In other words, MMORPGs do not only appeal to a youth subculture."

In other words, 75% of MMO players are legal adults. These games aren't marketed at children, they are marketed at gamers, a demographic primarily comprised of adults. If you don't like the content in them, don't let your kids play them.

Did you just link data from 14 years ago as some sort of useful info about today’s demographics?  Geez... that was published before WoW even released.  

Think maybe WoW might have changed the industry a bit?

Eldurian

MadFrenchie said:

You completely ignore the context here.  This isn't consumers squeezing fruit before they buy to check ripeness, devs have already shown they'll leverage the current legal framework and complexity of these products to manipulate players.  You can't ignore it, because there's been a friggin' patent filed for it.  You can choose to look away from that, but I'm not interested in having to watch out for buried predatory monetization code techniques in my games, thanks.

Everyone knows loot boxes are a gamble. Everyone knows the odds favor the house. The wool is over absolutely nobody's eyes.

Where we differ is you think you should be able to tell other people "you can't do that because it's bad for you" and I don't.

"I'm not interested in having to watch out for buried predatory monetization code techniques in my games, thanks."

Then don't play games that you feel operate that way.

Eldurian

Iselin said:

Eldurian said:

I am arguing against the general attitude of people who want to use government to control each other's vices or inflict the fact they can't control their children on adults trying to enjoy their hobbies.

The fact that you don't even understand that you're setting up a false dichotomy with that statement tells us that you have no real understanding of the role of society in addition to parenting and personal responsibility. It's not as simple as the either / or you seem to think it is.

It's like you're saying there should be no laws against breaking and entering because well brought up, responsible people shouldn't do it.

I agree with laws against breaking and entering because there are no two consenting parties. The home owner does not grant consent for the burglar to kick in their home and take their stuff. Therefore there is a victim. One party harmed by the interaction who did not consent to it.

When you buy a lootbox, you agree to pay money for a chance to get something. You consent, the seller consents. Therefore it is a victimless crime. Like prohibition, almost every government problem against victimless crimes has failed and served to make problems worse.

So I am firmly of the position, if there is no victim, there should be no crime.

Iselin

Eldurian said:

Iselin said:

Eldurian said:

Iselin said:

1. Dude you're the dictionary definition of a RL noob: you have no kids much less have raised kids to adulthood like many of us here have and yet you think you have intelligent things to say about parenting or the role of society in protecting the young simply because you've heard or read a couple of things that sound edgy and cool to you... self-deluded much?
2. Most of us here are trying to have a discussion about what can make a loot crate system be considered gambling by a country. You OTOH, want to talk about your ridiculous straw men like parenting or even leveling in RPGs simply because you have no intelligent thoughts to share about the issue this topic is about.

In other words, you're full of shit and we all know it.

Slapshot is the one who brought parenting into the argument. I'm just putting out there that the fact I have not opted to have children due to making a conscious decision to wait until I have time to raise them myself rather than letting the school system do that job for me actually makes me more responsible than the now majority of parents who didn't even find a partner before having kids.

Prepare to have your mind blown when you realize you can't keep your kids under your control and supervision 24/7 and that some people out there will try to take advantage of them.

Prepare to have you mind blown when you realize the government does little if anything to protect them from that.

Lets do a quick poll:

Who here never drank until 21?
Who here never looked at porn until 18?
Who here never smoked weed while it was illegal in their state? 
Who here has never casually gambled with their friends?

My god, it's almost like the parent's have to raise their kids with common sense and hope for the best rather than relying on the government to be their parent whenever they aren't home.

Yes some laws are really easy to break by anyone determined and careful enough. And law enforcement tends to prioritize murder over jay walking. So your conclusion is we shouldn't have laws?