Lootboxes are gambling (Official Statement)

Cryomatrix

@Eldurian

I use a credit card for everything and pay it off all the time to build credit. My credit score is excellent because of it. 

Cryomatrix

Eldurian

A credit score is only useful if you buy things on credit. Everything I own, including my car, I pay for in cash / directly from my bank account. It was pretty great when I a bank teller tried to sell me on some loan refinance and I told them I had nothing to refinance because I don't take loans or use a credit card. He was like "Yeah, but how much do you pay on your car each month."

"I own my car..."

"Oh..."

Was a fun conversation. But yeah seriously. You don't need credit. 

laserit

Eldurian said:

Vrika said:

I disagree. Kids should be allowed to spend some money online.

We can't have a society where a 15 years old would be old enough to take a part time work and earn pocket money, but not old enough to use that pocket money to buy stuff without permission from adults.

We also definitely shouldn't have a society where people under 18 years old are too young to do any kind of part time works. It's not good for the children if they can't get that experience.

Oh I had money before I turned 18. I had thrown hay bales for some of the local farms (which is actually damn good money at that age) and a few other things and I had plenty of cash to get things I wanted.

The difference was, I didn't have a credit card I could use to just get whatever I wanted online. This was for a few reasons. Primarily, getting a kid a credit card to teach them about financial responsibility is like having them sleep with a loaded gun to teach them about gun safety. I still don't own a credit card to this day. A debit card is a necessary tool of life as an adult but there is plenty of evidence to show people tend to spend cash more responsibly than cards because they get to physically see there money leaving their hand.

I can't think of a single good reason cash is not good enough for someone under 18. 

As to people saying "You don't have kids!" "You aren't a failure if your kid steals your credit card!" I may not have them but I was a teenager not that long ago. Did I do some things my parent's didn't know about? Oh yeah.

Was one of them stealing, especially from my parents? Oh hell no. Yeah if your kid is stealing credit cards I'm going to stand by my failure as a parent thing. Especially since you apparently raised a kid not only dishonest enough to steal, but dumb enough to not know you can just check your bank history and be like "Wtf is this?!"

You don't need a credit card to make online purchases.

Vrika

Eldurian said:

Vrika said:

I disagree. Kids should be allowed to spend some money online.

We can't have a society where a 15 years old would be old enough to take a part time work and earn pocket money, but not old enough to use that pocket money to buy stuff without permission from adults.

We also definitely shouldn't have a society where people under 18 years old are too young to do any kind of part time works. It's not good for the children if they can't get that experience.

Oh I had money before I turned 18. I had thrown hay bales for some of the local farms (which is actually damn good money at that age) and a few other things and I had plenty of cash to get things I wanted.

The difference was, I didn't have a credit card I could use to just get whatever I wanted online. This was for a few reasons. Primarily, getting a kid a credit card to teach them about financial responsibility is like having them sleep with a loaded gun to teach them about gun safety. I still don't own a credit card to this day. A debit card is a necessary tool of life as an adult but there is plenty of evidence to show people tend to spend cash more responsibly than cards because they get to physically see there money leaving their hand.

I can't think of a single good reason cash is not good enough for someone under 18.

I did not say that kids should have credit cards. I said that they should be able to spend money earned through their own work online.

Back when you and I were kids getting a new game, a movie, or a new school book meant going to a store that sold them. Today many of the games, movies and even some school books aren't available in stores at all.

Ungood

laserit said:

Ungood said:

Ungood said:

No.. I think doing better is teaching children responsible play, how to only bet what you can lose, and learn how to handle addiction.

Coddling people does not protect them anymore then putting people in a padded cell makes their life safe.

It's not about coddling, it's about the overall affect on gaming, when you add lootboxes, it's not just those who pay that lose out, it's gamers who don't want to pay lost out as well. 

BF2 was an example, the game nerfed every aspect of multiplayer for the sake of lootboxes, meaning I would get my ass handed to me left and right because the other team had a person who dropped money and already unlocked Darth Vader or several powerful perks several month early.

I know a lot of people are making it about children and protecting people, but that's just the surface imho and the common person wouldn't understand the problem above and obviously the government don't either . The main problem is the watering down of games to make room for loot boxes. Another example to show the direction things were heading in is the patent EA I think wrote up, were they would pair you against someone in multiplayer who's used mtx to put you in a situation were you feel needed to buy items to keep up. Manipulating a none mtx user into using mtx.

What BF2 did was P2W, and a real clear example of it, that was the problem, not the lootboxes themselves.

Now, ask yourself this question, Would you have been happier if they just sold Darth Vader for say, 1,000 dollars, knowing that anyone who had the money to buy that upgrade was still going to kick your ass? Along with a ton temporary and single use power ups that you needed to buy for each match? The issue you have is not the Lootbox, it is the P2W in those situations.

Now if you want to argue the problem with P2W that is another discussion.

But, reality is, in most MMO, Lotoboxes are mainly just cosmetic junk, dyes, armor skins, weapon skins, trinkets and the like, nothing noteworthy P2W for the most part, which is what makes Lootboxes in those games, no more or less then a Gumball from a vending mechanic, where the value of something, is purely a product of what someone else will pay for it.

Since they offer no intrinsic advantage, or necessity, Lootboxes in those games are just a game of chance, but not gambling, they are exactly like a Gumball Machine, were children drop money in till they get the candy they want.

Kids need to be protected from predators like the modern day video game industry. It's obvious that just like a child, your industry need to be taught where the boundaries are.

Many social animals communally care about the health and welfare of their young, they also protect the young against predators.

When a society has to contemplate placing armed guards in their schools to protect their children from their own citizens. Maybe it's time for a little bit of self reflection.

That Would be called Parenting.. and when a society starts to expect and even depend upon corporations, politicians and total strangers, to raise their children.. because the parents themselves could not do a sufficient job of it,  That.. truly is the time to stop and reflect how much we have failed as a species, but that does explain why CPS is as brutal as they are.

Eldurian

Kid's should be able to spend their money online. I spent money online. I just had to go through my parents in order to do so.

Eldurian

laserit said:

You don't need a credit card to make online purchases.

Perfect. Make games with in-game gambling rated mature so you have to be 18 to buy the gift cards. Problem solved. Without infringing upon the rights of grown ass adults.

Eldurian

Ungood said:

laserit said:

Kids need to be protected from predators like the modern day video game industry. It's obvious that just like a child, your industry need to be taught where the boundaries are.

Many social animals communally care about the health and welfare of their young, they also protect the young against predators.

When a society has to contemplate placing armed guards in their schools to protect their children from their own citizens. Maybe it's time for a little bit of self reflection.

That Would be called Parenting.. and when a society starts to expect and even depend upon corporations, politicians and total strangers, to raise their children.. because the parents themselves could not do a sufficient job of it,  That.. truly is the time to stop and reflect how much we have failed as a species, but that does explain why CPS is as brutal as they are.

Well and the double standard is amazing. Nobody here is arguing about protecting kids from leveling addiction. And kid's can steal mommy's credit cards to access porn as well. How do you all feel about banning porn?

Nah. That's all a false equivalent / ridiculous whatever.

Whatever these hypocrites need to say to rationalize using government as a tool to ban practices they don't like, without having to apply that same standard to the things they do.

Cryomatrix

Eldurian said:

A credit score is only useful if you buy things on credit. Everything I own, including my car, I pay for in cash / directly from my bank account. It was pretty great when I a bank teller tried to sell me on some loan refinance and I told them I had nothing to refinance because I don't take loans or use a credit card. He was like "Yeah, but how much do you pay on your car each month."

"I own my car..."

"Oh..."

Was a fun conversation. But yeah seriously. You don't need credit. 

You buy a house? Or you rent? 

Eldurian

Cryomatrix said:

Eldurian said:

A credit score is only useful if you buy things on credit. Everything I own, including my car, I pay for in cash / directly from my bank account. It was pretty great when I a bank teller tried to sell me on some loan refinance and I told them I had nothing to refinance because I don't take loans or use a credit card. He was like "Yeah, but how much do you pay on your car each month."

"I own my car..."

"Oh..."

Was a fun conversation. But yeah seriously. You don't need credit. 

You buy a house? Or you rent? 

I'll save you the line of questions:

https://www.daveramsey.com/blog/living-without-credit-score

Ungood

I want to make a few points.

I don't like Lootboxes. I personally hate the RNG-Hell they are, and I would love to justify getting rid of them.

With that said, calling them gambling, is not the way to make it happen. 

The only way to get rid of lootboxes is to support games with another payment system

You can't simply not buy them, as others will, and as long as they are profitable, a company will use them, or something like them to keep making as much money as possible. That is how F2P killed the Sub based games, people spent more money on the F2P games. If you want some other system to happen, you need to open your wallets and pay into those other systems to make them profitable.

We can't blame a company for wanting to make money.
We can't expect a company to raise and protect our children... that is our job.

What we can do, is influance things, and the only way to make that happen is by voting with your wallet.. not by closing it. but by opening it to the things you want to see happen.

Closing your wallet just has the company write you off and move on to someone else that will open theirs, and they will cater to them, no matter how much you fuss, because they are the ones funding things, not you.

So again, if you want lootboxes to go away, stop buying them but make sure to buy something else that you want to see more of.

Case in point, I will not buy RNG stuff in any game I play, what I will buy is stuff when they sell me directly what I want, because that is what I want to see more of.

Slapshot1188

Eldurian said:

laserit said:

You don't need a credit card to make online purchases.

Perfect. Make games with in-game gambling rated mature so you have to be 18 to buy the gift cards. Problem solved. Without infringing upon the rights of grown ass adults.

Maybe that’s a better tactic for you to argue instead of belittling concerns of actual parents...

I couldn’t  care less what an informed adult does.

MadFrenchie

Eldurian said:

Ungood said:

laserit said:

Kids need to be protected from predators like the modern day video game industry. It's obvious that just like a child, your industry need to be taught where the boundaries are.

Many social animals communally care about the health and welfare of their young, they also protect the young against predators.

When a society has to contemplate placing armed guards in their schools to protect their children from their own citizens. Maybe it's time for a little bit of self reflection.

That Would be called Parenting.. and when a society starts to expect and even depend upon corporations, politicians and total strangers, to raise their children.. because the parents themselves could not do a sufficient job of it,  That.. truly is the time to stop and reflect how much we have failed as a species, but that does explain why CPS is as brutal as they are.

Well and the double standard is amazing. Nobody here is arguing about protecting kids from leveling addiction. And kid's can steal mommy's credit cards to access porn as well. How do you all feel about banning porn?

Nah. That's all a false equivalent / ridiculous whatever.

Whatever these hypocrites need to say to rationalize using government as a tool to ban practices they don't like, without having to apply that same standard to the things they do.

Because your argument about kiddies and the internet focuses on a part of the situation they aren't arguing against.

You guys acts like disproving one part of the issue solves it entirely, which isn't true.  The issue is exacerbated by the completely asinine method by which software is sold, owned, and shared.  You can keep making analogies to things that are set up fundamentally different (a sub to a porn site, real physical property with real transfers of ownership, etc.), but you fail to address the entirety of the issue, instead claiming full victory because you suppose you've solved a fraction of the overall issue.

Eldurian

Slapshot1188 said:

Maybe that’s a better tactic for you to argue instead of belittling concerns of actual parents...

I couldn’t  care less what an informed adult does.

I'm not one to respect people for being parents because I live in this generation and know how things go down. I could be a parent as of a few years ago if I wanted because I found a woman I want to be one with, but I recognize the value of finishing our degrees first and know how a condom works.

Most the "parents" I know in my age range didn't even bother to finding a stable relationship before pushing out offspring. They aren't getting any of my respect or sympathy for that. No matter how sacred a status the rest of society may think parenthood is. 

Eldurian

MadFrenchie said:

Because your argument about kiddies and the internet focuses on a part of the situation they aren't arguing against.

You guys acts like disproving one part of the issue solves it entirely, which isn't true.  The issue is exacerbated by the completely asinine method by which software is sold, owned, and shared.  You can keep making analogies to things that are set up fundamentally different (a sub to a porn site, real physical property with real transfers of ownership, etc.), but you fail to address the entirety of the issue, instead claiming full victory because you suppose you've solved a fraction of the overall issue.

The only solution this issue requires is you getting over 2 things.

1. You don't get to control other people's actions. Either how they spend their money or how they allow their children to.

2. Companies are under no obligation to make a product you like, enjoy, or want to buy. Because you are under no obligation to buy them. You have consumer sovereignty and get to vote with your dollar on what the market should or shouldn't produce. That's it.

There isn't a problem here other than the fact the staters be statin'. So no solution is required.

Slapshot1188

Change is on the way 

We can and will do better.

Asm0deus

Slapshot1188 said:

Change is on the way 

We can and will do better.

One can only hope.

Eldurian

Slapshot1188 said:

Change is on the way 

We can and will do better.

Slapshot when nothing changes here:

Kabulozo

Let's ban everything not kid friendly like porn on the internet because some parents can't control what their children do online to protect them. You don't need to pay anything to access tons of porn movies. [mod edit]

Letting the government regulate what should be a parent/family issue to take care of is a danm retarded idea.

MadFrenchie

Eldurian said:

MadFrenchie said:

Because your argument about kiddies and the internet focuses on a part of the situation they aren't arguing against.

You guys acts like disproving one part of the issue solves it entirely, which isn't true.  The issue is exacerbated by the completely asinine method by which software is sold, owned, and shared.  You can keep making analogies to things that are set up fundamentally different (a sub to a porn site, real physical property with real transfers of ownership, etc.), but you fail to address the entirety of the issue, instead claiming full victory because you suppose you've solved a fraction of the overall issue.

The only solution this issue requires is you getting over 2 things.

1. You don't get to control other people's actions. Either how they spend their money or how they allow their children to.

2. Companies are under no obligation to make a product you like, enjoy, or want to buy. Because you are under no obligation to buy them. You have consumer sovereignty and get to vote with your dollar on what the market should or shouldn't produce. That's it.

There isn't a problem here other than the fact the staters be statin'. So no solution is required.

You completely ignore the context here.  This isn't consumers squeezing fruit before they buy to check ripeness, devs have already shown they'll leverage the current legal framework and complexity of these products to manipulate players.  You can't ignore it, because there's been a friggin' patent filed for it.  You can choose to look away from that, but I'm not interested in having to watch out for buried predatory monetization code techniques in my games, thanks.

Iselin

ohioastro said:

There is absolutely no point in discussing things like this with libertarian true believers.  

Nailed it. And for the purposes of the discussion of a Western country declaring that it is gambling they have nothing to say except straw man after straw man sprinkled with belittling Belgium and parents.

They're a desperate bunch just like any other zealot when their faith is attacked.

Slapshot1188

Eldurian said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Change is on the way 

We can and will do better.

Slapshot when nothing changes here:

Very grown up of you. 

laserit

Ungood said:

laserit said:

Ungood said:

Ungood said:

No.. I think doing better is teaching children responsible play, how to only bet what you can lose, and learn how to handle addiction.

Coddling people does not protect them anymore then putting people in a padded cell makes their life safe.

It's not about coddling, it's about the overall affect on gaming, when you add lootboxes, it's not just those who pay that lose out, it's gamers who don't want to pay lost out as well. 

BF2 was an example, the game nerfed every aspect of multiplayer for the sake of lootboxes, meaning I would get my ass handed to me left and right because the other team had a person who dropped money and already unlocked Darth Vader or several powerful perks several month early.

I know a lot of people are making it about children and protecting people, but that's just the surface imho and the common person wouldn't understand the problem above and obviously the government don't either . The main problem is the watering down of games to make room for loot boxes. Another example to show the direction things were heading in is the patent EA I think wrote up, were they would pair you against someone in multiplayer who's used mtx to put you in a situation were you feel needed to buy items to keep up. Manipulating a none mtx user into using mtx.

What BF2 did was P2W, and a real clear example of it, that was the problem, not the lootboxes themselves.

Now, ask yourself this question, Would you have been happier if they just sold Darth Vader for say, 1,000 dollars, knowing that anyone who had the money to buy that upgrade was still going to kick your ass? Along with a ton temporary and single use power ups that you needed to buy for each match? The issue you have is not the Lootbox, it is the P2W in those situations.

Now if you want to argue the problem with P2W that is another discussion.

But, reality is, in most MMO, Lotoboxes are mainly just cosmetic junk, dyes, armor skins, weapon skins, trinkets and the like, nothing noteworthy P2W for the most part, which is what makes Lootboxes in those games, no more or less then a Gumball from a vending mechanic, where the value of something, is purely a product of what someone else will pay for it.

Since they offer no intrinsic advantage, or necessity, Lootboxes in those games are just a game of chance, but not gambling, they are exactly like a Gumball Machine, were children drop money in till they get the candy they want.

Kids need to be protected from predators like the modern day video game industry. It's obvious that just like a child, your industry need to be taught where the boundaries are.

Many social animals communally care about the health and welfare of their young, they also protect the young against predators.

When a society has to contemplate placing armed guards in their schools to protect their children from their own citizens. Maybe it's time for a little bit of self reflection.

That Would be called Parenting.. and when a society starts to expect and even depend upon corporations, politicians and total strangers, to raise their children.. because the parents themselves could not do a sufficient job of it,  That.. truly is the time to stop and reflect how much we have failed as a species, but that does explain why CPS is as brutal as they are.

When you use gumball machines for analogies it's pretty fucking obvious what market your targeting with the loot box garbage.

Where's the ethics? There isn't fucking any. $$$$$$$$

What the fuck we have governments and pay taxes for anyways?

For the common good, that's what for.

And that's why it's not a matter of *if* your government comes down on you guys, it's just a matter of *when*.

laserit

Eldurian said:

laserit said:

You don't need a credit card to make online purchases.

Perfect. Make games with in-game gambling rated mature so you have to be 18 to buy the gift cards. Problem solved. Without infringing upon the rights of grown ass adults.

Agreed:

I'd bet you that if you got the minors out of these games the profit margins would leave with them.

laserit

Ungood said:

I want to make a few points.

I don't like Lootboxes. I personally hate the RNG-Hell they are, and I would love to justify getting rid of them.

With that said, calling them gambling, is not the way to make it happen. 

The only way to get rid of lootboxes is to support games with another payment system

You can't simply not buy them, as others will, and as long as they are profitable, a company will use them, or something like them to keep making as much money as possible. That is how F2P killed the Sub based games, people spent more money on the F2P games. If you want some other system to happen, you need to open your wallets and pay into those other systems to make them profitable.

We can't blame a company for wanting to make money.
We can't expect a company to raise and protect our children... that is our job.

What we can do, is influance things, and the only way to make that happen is by voting with your wallet.. not by closing it. but by opening it to the things you want to see happen.

Closing your wallet just has the company write you off and move on to someone else that will open theirs, and they will cater to them, no matter how much you fuss, because they are the ones funding things, not you.

So again, if you want lootboxes to go away, stop buying them but make sure to buy something else that you want to see more of.

Case in point, I will not buy RNG stuff in any game I play, what I will buy is stuff when they sell me directly what I want, because that is what I want to see more of.

Whether it's gambling or not doesn't matter. Keep the loot box monetization model away from kids.

Nothing could be better than consumer based pressure to force companies away from these types of models.

If it takes regulation to keep companies from targeting kids with the loot box crap, well then... that's on them.