How I Feel About Star Citizen At This Point

MadFrenchie

Eldurian said:

The thing is better stats does not = better ship in an aim based fighter sim.

I'll give you an example. Per stats the best ship in Freelancer was the titan. Most hitpoints etc. It was statistically superior to every other ship.

Only newbs flew titans. On vanilla servers nearly every single veteran pilot flew the Eagle despite it being only the 3rd best ship in the game both in price and statistically. Why?

Smaller hitbox, tighter turning radius. Something the eagle shares in common to some of the cheaper fighters in Star Citizen like the aurora and avenger compared to pricier ones like the hornet.

I should know. I own the super hornet which I believe is the heaviest fighter and is for sure one of the priciest fully-combat focused fighters, and it certainly does not let me just plow through everything effortlessly. I stand no chance against the people who have been playing this game hardcore the whole time.

Really this game revolves around skill and tactics. There is absolutely no room to win against a good pilot as a swiper who isn't skilled. There is absolutely no room to win against a good pilot as a no-lifer who isn't skilled. The better player is generally going to win. Just like in Freelancer.

But you're assuming swipers won't actually be practicing.  If two equal skill level pilots go head to head, one a swiper with the top-of-the-line and the other not, that's still advantage to the swiper.

Again, it's not the most egregious situation possible (thank God), but it isn't completely absolved merely because of that fact.

rpmcmurphy

Eldurian said:

And it has been said over and over that the stock equipment on all the ships in the cash store is not the high class stuff. That the need to replace equipment is a major balancing feature for those ships. It has also been said over and over that the different ships excel in certain areas and different ships bring different experiences.

Indeed, so if the $180 ship is more than twice as good as a similarly sized ship before you can fit the high class modules, how good will it be after you can fit the high class modules?

Eldurian said:

So acting like the bigger ships are going to be pay-to-win is absolutely inane when:

Show me where I am saying that? It's a strawman for a point that's not even being argued.

Eldurian said:

These is no reason to assume they will go back on what they said and make the game less realistic, and less balanced in the process other than an outright desire to see everything in this game turn out as bad as possible.

I wouldn't say there is no reason because history speaks for itself and time also becomes a limiting factor, at a certain point they are going to need to get the game out and certain things will fall by the wayside to make that happen. They don't have the luxury of all the time in the world/all the money in the world.

Eldurian said:

Sorry boys, if you bought an Idriss to own the skies it's probably not going to happen, at least until you get out of fuel range of ships like the hornet and avenger.

Again, not once have I said that buying a $2500 ship will let you pwn every other ship in the game. You're just being irrational now.

MadFrenchie

I think it's highly fallacious to believe that folks who purchase the highest end ships are doing so to avoid spending time playing the game.  There's no proof that folks who spend more have less time than those who spend less.

So even if there's grinding for parts to upgrade ship capabilities, if the stat ceiling on the most expensive ship is higher than others, it's still directly selling more powerful ships per role based on cash tiers.

Eldurian

rpmcmurphy said:

Indeed, so if the $180 ship is more than twice as good as a similarly sized ship before you can fit the high class modules, how good will it be after you can fit the high class modules?

Eldurian said:

So acting like the bigger ships are going to be pay-to-win is absolutely inane when:

Show me where I am saying that? It's a strawman for a point that's not even being argued.

So you are assuming a 180$ ship is more than twice as good as a cheaper ship before fitting modules, but you do not believe that bigger ships are pay-to-win and saying you believe so is a strawman....

rpmcmurphy

Eldurian said:

rpmcmurphy said:

Indeed, so if the $180 ship is more than twice as good as a similarly sized ship before you can fit the high class modules, how good will it be after you can fit the high class modules?

Eldurian said:

So acting like the bigger ships are going to be pay-to-win is absolutely inane when:

Show me where I am saying that? It's a strawman for a point that's not even being argued.

So you are assuming a 180$ ship is more than twice as good as a cheaper ship before fitting modules, but you do not believe that bigger ships are pay-to-win and saying you believe so is a strawman....

No I am not assuming. I posted dps times to show this was indeed the case. A Superhornet does more than double the damage per sec compared to an Aurora LN or Avenger Warlock.

Each time I have mentioned this I have said ships of a similar size or within its class, purposely limiting the bigger = better aspect of this debate.

Eldurian

MadFrenchie said:

I think it's highly fallacious to believe that folks who purchase the highest end ships are doing so to avoid spending time playing the game.  There's no proof that folks who spend more have less time than those who spend less.

So even if there's grinding for parts to upgrade ship capabilities, if the stat ceiling on the most expensive ship is higher than others, it's still directly selling more powerful ships per role based on cash tiers.

You're still coming at it from a WoW-clone mentality. You make the attack. The attack lands unless RNGesus says it gets dodged because tab-targeting.

Aim based games have more hidden stats like hitbox size and turning radius. You make the attack, the attack will not land if they are dodging your fire proficiently. Smaller hitbox size and turning radius make this task easier. Infact heavier ships have to go to great efforts to ensure the smaller ship doesn't just get behind them and stay there until they are dead. It's effectively a "dodge bonus" but it isn't measured in ship stats the same way gunslots and HP are so it's easier to miss. 

When you factor this in, there is a much flatter power gap between these ships. I mean really, in Freelancer the lightest ships could barely tickle the heaviest fighters and 2 hits = dead. But in Arena Commander auroras are really not that bad in terms of damage output. Their attacks hurt, no matter what you are flying.

It really makes it difficult to say one ship or another is definitively the best. The Super Hornet is only definitively the best if every attack lands.

MadFrenchie

So what's the turn radius comparison between, say, Aurora, Avenger, and the Super Hornet?

Eldurian

I don't know the actual stats off the top of my head. But I am almost certain the Super Hornet has the largest hitbox and widest turn radius of those 3 ships. I'm also fairly certain it has the highest HP and most potential firepower.

Edit: Looks like the Aurora actually has the lowest turning radius but is by far the smallest (4.0 meters long as opposed to 6.5 for the hornet and 5.5 for the avenger). The Avenger has the fastest turning rate (105 pitch/yaw per second as opposed to 90 for the super hornet and 70 for the aurora). The avenger is also the fastest (250 standard 1310 with afterburner while the super hornet is 230 and 1220 and the aurora 195 1210). So the Aurora is a poor choice in everything but hitbox size but does have a substantial advantage in that regard. The Avenger however outclasses the SH in every way when it comes to it's ability to evade fire.

rpmcmurphy

Eldurian said:

It really makes it difficult to say one ship or another is definitively the best. The Super Hornet is only definitively the best if every attack lands.

The SH only needs 78% of its shots to land to do the same damage as the Sabre.

Eldurian

rpmcmurphy said:

Eldurian said:

It really makes it difficult to say one ship or another is definitively the best. The Super Hornet is only definitively the best if every attack lands.

The SH only needs 78% of its shots to land to do the same damage as the Sabre.

Have you ever played a space sim or do you really have no idea how ridiculous that statement is? You're assuming you will spend equal time with a bead drawn on eachother. That is exceptionally unlikely. Assuming equal skill, the ship with the better turning is far more likely to spend substantially more time with the other player in it's sights.

rpmcmurphy

Eldurian said:

rpmcmurphy said:

Eldurian said:

It really makes it difficult to say one ship or another is definitively the best. The Super Hornet is only definitively the best if every attack lands.

The SH only needs 78% of its shots to land to do the same damage as the Sabre.

Have you ever played a space sim or do you really have no idea how ridiculous that statement is? You're assuming you will spend equal time with a bead drawn on eachother. That is exceptionally unlikely.

I am simply correcting this objectively untrue statement "The Super Hornet is only definitively the best if every attack lands."

If you now want to start adding variables then you should not have made such a definitive comment in the first place.

Eldurian

rpmcmurphy said:

I am simply correcting this objectively untrue statement "The Super Hornet is only definitively the best if every attack lands."

If you now want to start adding variables then you should not have made such a definitive comment in the first place.

I was assuming the reader was intelligent enough to understand that what I was saying is that it's far more difficult to say one ship or another is better with certainty when factoring in how variable turn radiuses and hitbox shapes and sizes affect accuracy.

Contextual clues alone should make that clear to anyone proficient in the English language. Unless they are intentionally trying to be obtuse.

rpmcmurphy

Eldurian said:

rpmcmurphy said:

I am simply correcting this objectively untrue statement "The Super Hornet is only definitively the best if every attack lands."

If you now want to start adding variables then you should not have made such a definitive comment in the first place.

I was assuming the reader was intelligent enough to understand that what I was saying is that it's far more difficult to say one ship or another is better with certainty when factoring in how variable turn radiuses and hitbox shapes and sizes affect accuracy.

Contextual clues alone should make that clear to anyone proficient in the English language. Unless they are intentionally trying to be obtuse.

Ugh, and here we go with the passive aggressive attacks...

If you don't want any "misinterpretation" then it is your job to ensure that something you say cannot be construed in a way you do not intend...

You can act as superior as you want but the facts speak for themselves;
First of all you claim I am liking all negative posts which was completely untrue. Next up you claim I am saying the most expensive ship in the game is the best, again completely untrue. Then you said that me claiming the SH had the best dps for its class was an assumption, again untrue. Now you're saying that I have a reading comprehesion issue while it is you that has repeatedly falsified and misunderstood what has been said.
 
By your own words you are either improficient in English or you are being intentionally obtuse. 

You've clearly got some personal beef so do us both a favour and pop me on ignore, you know it's the best thing for you

Eldurian

Do you even understand what passive aggressive means? I am not at all passive aggressive with you. I've been as direct as a possibly can be about how I feel about you within what is allowed here. Was straight up saying that I feel you are a troll not clear enough?

I was perfectly clear. What I said was not at all hard to understand in any way shape or form. It quite obviously hyperbole but you took it hyper-literally anyway. Using hyperbole is not improper English, especially when I spend the entire preceding post explaining that one line you decided to take hyper-literally. 

rpmcmurphy

Eldurian said:

Do you even understand what passive aggressive means? I am not at all passive aggressive with you. 

I understand perfectly fine what passive aggressive means, do you?

Implying someone lacks intelligence without actually accusing them of being dumb is a prime example of passive aggressiveness. 

"Contextual clues alone should make that clear to anyone proficient in the English language" is another prime example of passive aggressiveness. You're questioning someone's understanding and proficiency via implication rather than accusation.

I am not trying to get a rise out of anyone, you on the other hand with your continued digs, snipes, accusations, assumptions and petty comments are all perfect examples of someone trying to get a rise out of a person. That, by my reckoning, would make you the troll.

Eldurian said:

I've been as direct as a possibly can be about how I feel about you within what is allowed here. Was straight up saying that I feel you are a troll not clear enough?

Oooh, so much hate.... Let's take it to PMs then so you can really say how you feel... you've clearly got a problem and I could do with a good laugh.

Eldurian said:

I was perfectly clear. What I said was not at all hard to understand in any way shape or form. It quite obviously hyperbole but you took it hyper-literally anyway. Using hyperbole is not improper English, especially when I spend the entire preceding post explaining that one line you decided to take hyper-literally. 

You were perfectly clear but you were also perfectly wrong, stop being such a sour puss just because I corrected you.
I didn't imply anything, I didn't question your intelligence, I didn't throw out any ad hominems or passive aggressiveness when I made that comment and yet you choose to behave that way and escalate this instead of accepting it and moving on. 

Edit: I don't know where you get off with this attitude.
You talked shit about me for no reason, you then tried to turn my P2W example into something no-one was talking about and claiming I was being totally unreasonable, ignoring the criteria I had used just so that you could throw barbs at me.
Despite all of that I addressed and corrected your posts in a non-rude way, never questioning your ability to read or understand English and yet instead of appreciating a bit of refrain you instantly leap up with your attitude, and you have the gall to question me and accuse me of being a troll....

Phaserlight

Eldurian said:

I don't really care if it all ends up in there to be honest. All that needs to happen for this game to be one of the best ever made is to finish the content on the roadmap for this year. (Primarily just territory claiming and female avatars) polish up it and all the existing content, expand the map, and launch it.

You have trading, missions, planetary mining, character customization, ground combat, atmospheric flight, racing, ground to air combat etc.

If you have been following space sims at all really, you would know that is one of the most robust packages ever included in any such game. And we aren't even talking about "what is promised" or "what is coming soon". That entire list is what you can go do in the PTU and Arena Commander right now.

So most likely CR will scale back his ambitions the moment he realizes the money is running low. And if not someone will purchase what's been done for millions upon millions when CIG folds. 

A functional player to player economy?

Bartering with respect to needs and wants?

These are very basic things I've come to enjoy in a space sim MMO.

Eldurian

@rpmcmurphy - Ok so you don't understand what passive aggressive means.

"of or denoting a type of behavior or personality characterized by indirect resistance to the demands of others and an avoidance of direct confrontation, as in procrastinating, pouting, or misplacing important materials."

A passive aggressive comment is a seemingly non-aggressive comment that is only aggressive when you interpret the hidden meaning "That’s really awesome—especially for you."

Saying that something you are doing is stupid without calling you stupid is an aggressive comment. It's just calling you on your bullcrap rather than calling you names.

You called out obvious hyperbole with an entire post that clarifies the exact meaning by being hyper-literal. That's not a correction it's distracting from the obvious argument. So either that post went above your head, or you're intentionally being an ass. 

As to who is the troll. I come here all the time look at the content the "white knights" post and ask questions about the progress of development. You on the other hand pretty much only come here to bash the game. I have a legitimate reason to be here. You don't. Your entire reason for being here is to illicit negative reactions.

Eldurian

Phaserlight said:

Bartering with respect to needs and wants?

These are very basic things I've come to enjoy in a space sim MMO.

I am sure these will be in by game launch if they are not already. They are very basic features and not terribly difficult to implement. When will VO be implementing graphics from this decade or the ability to step outside your ship?

rpmcmurphy

Eldurian said:

Saying that something you are doing is stupid without calling you stupid is an aggressive comment. It's just calling you on your bullcrap rather than calling you names.

Right, implying someone is thick without calling them thick is passive aggressive and that's precisely what you did, more than once.

Eldurian said:

You called out obvious hyperbole with an entire post that clarifies the exact meaning by being hyper-literal. That's not a correction it's distracting from the obvious argument. So either that post went above your head, or you're intentionally being an ass. 

Bullshit, man you are so full of it.

Eldurian said:

As to who is the troll. I come here all the time look at the content the "white knights" post and ask questions about the progress of development. You on the other hand pretty much only come here to bash the game. I have a legitimate reason to be here. You don't. Your entire reason for being here is to illicit negative reactions.

I am a backer of this game, I have been a backer since 2014, I have every fucking right to be here you sanctimonious pratt.

You want to start fights for no damn reason, you want to argue about things outside the topic being discussed, you want to insult, criticise, bait, snipe and all the rest of the crap you are up to while claiming people who have a different opinion to you are trolls.
You really are a deluded individual.

I've had enough of your shit and won't be responding any further because it's clear what you are up to. The mods can handle it from here on.

Kefo

Eldurian said:

@rpmcmurphy - Ok so you don't understand what passive aggressive means.

"of or denoting a type of behavior or personality characterized by indirect resistance to the demands of others and an avoidance of direct confrontation, as in procrastinating, pouting, or misplacing important materials."

A passive aggressive comment is a seemingly non-aggressive comment that is only aggressive when you interpret the hidden meaning "That’s really awesome—especially for you."

Saying that something you are doing is stupid without calling you stupid is an aggressive comment. It's just calling you on your bullcrap rather than calling you names.

You called out obvious hyperbole with an entire post that clarifies the exact meaning by being hyper-literal. That's not a correction it's distracting from the obvious argument. So either that post went above your head, or you're intentionally being an ass. 

As to who is the troll. I come here all the time look at the content the "white knights" post and ask questions about the progress of development. You on the other hand pretty much only come here to bash the game. I have a legitimate reason to be here. You don't. Your entire reason for being here is to illicit negative reactions.

Lol sounds like you don’t like it when someone comes along and calls you out on your bullshit. Something you claim to do I believe?

Kefo

rpmcmurphy said:

Eldurian said:

Saying that something you are doing is stupid without calling you stupid is an aggressive comment. It's just calling you on your bullcrap rather than calling you names.

Right, implying someone is thick without calling them thick is passive aggressive and that's precisely what you did, more than once.

Eldurian said:

You called out obvious hyperbole with an entire post that clarifies the exact meaning by being hyper-literal. That's not a correction it's distracting from the obvious argument. So either that post went above your head, or you're intentionally being an ass. 

Bullshit, man you are so full of it.

Eldurian said:

As to who is the troll. I come here all the time look at the content the "white knights" post and ask questions about the progress of development. You on the other hand pretty much only come here to bash the game. I have a legitimate reason to be here. You don't. Your entire reason for being here is to illicit negative reactions.

I am a backer of this game, I have been a backer since 2014, I have every fucking right to be here you sanctimonious pratt.

You want to start fights for no damn reason, you want to argue about things outside the topic being discussed, you want to insult, criticise, bait, snipe and all the rest of the crap you are up to while claiming people who have a different opinion to you are trolls.
You really are a deluded individual.

I've had enough of your shit and won't be responding any further because it's clear what you are up to. The mods can handle it from here on.

Please keep responding to them. I’m enjoying watching you destroy them and seeing them throw temper tantrum after temper tantrum.

Phaserlight

Eldurian said:

Phaserlight said:

Bartering with respect to needs and wants?

These are very basic things I've come to enjoy in a space sim MMO.

I am sure these will be in by game launch if they are not already. They are very basic features and not terribly difficult to implement. When will VO be implementing graphics from this decade or the ability to step outside your ship?

Since you bring it up, Vendetta's graphics are fine, and I'll take meaningful gameplay over the ability to step outside a spaceship any day of the week. Try running VO on a decent personal computer if you want "graphics from this decade":

https://twitter.com/VendettaOnline/status/926542206537752581

I'll grant you walking around inside and outside spaceships is a nice concept though; a handful of other games are taking a stab at this as well, or have already.  It is a great aphorism, though, that gameplay trumps graphics. 

Star Citizen's graphics look amazing when dialed up. Like something out of a movie. 

Eldurian

rpmcmurphy said:

I am a backer of this game, I have been a backer since 2014, I have every fucking right to be here you sanctimonious pratt.

You want to start fights for no damn reason, you want to argue about things outside the topic being discussed, you want to insult, criticise, bait, snipe and all the rest of the crap you are up to while claiming people who have a different opinion to you are trolls.
You really are a deluded individual.

I've had enough of your shit and won't be responding any further because it's clear what you are up to. The mods can handle it from here on.

Great. I'll see you in space. Hope your aim is better than your understanding of the English language.

rpmcmurphy

Kefo said:

Please keep responding to them. I’m enjoying watching you destroy them and seeing them throw temper tantrum after temper tantrum.

Even Crobear can't believe what this guy is saying



P.S. Who has a hot drink and a cold drink at the same time while also wearing a watch on each wrist?

MadFrenchie

Eldurian said:

Phaserlight said:

Bartering with respect to needs and wants?

These are very basic things I've come to enjoy in a space sim MMO.

I am sure these will be in by game launch if they are not already. They are very basic features and not terribly difficult to implement. When will VO be implementing graphics from this decade or the ability to step outside your ship?

That was passive-aggressive.