How.many game loops do you see in say.... Fortnite orLoL, respectively.
For real?
So 6 years, $200 million and it's ok for a game that is meant to have plenty of game loops to not have them because, look, tiddly-winks doesn't have them either.... Are you sure that's what you wanted to say?
lol
So....What is your definition of game loop... how many game loops do you have in Fortnite/Elite/Star Citizen for example?
What are they?
What kind of engagement do they require from the player?
200 million already? I tought I was the designated financial announcer , seems i missed this one
*** its about them having no idea how much it takes to deliver on all their promises.***
They do have an idea. But their estimates are too optimistic. For a variety of reasons.
Have fun
Which means they have no idea. If you keep estimating the wrong date over and over and over again then you have no idea how long it takes.
Giving a date and then missing it here or there? Ok fine shit happens and something got delayed which delayed everything else. But constantly missing dates? You either have a very inept work force or you have no idea what the hell you are talking about and are promising things your workforce is incapable of delivering.
its done when its done companies usually dont promise a release date and then dont deliver. >>>
They did it all the time. But even they have learned ;-)
Those companies had their fair share of delays to explain. But they delivered awesome games, so the majority of gamers does not care (with the exception of a few loudmouthed trolls).
I don't think they are even thinking about "oh we need to finish this by X date to release the game", yet they are simply continuing to develop and release promised features and content.
There's no point on demand more long-term speculation from the developers because it will be the status of the game itself that will define when it is releasable, hence why they just continually develop and release updates. Still ways to go.
They simply have that maneuverability, and they make use of it, for the better and for the worse.
How long does a game get to be in alpha before it becomes ridiculous and warranting of jokes and memes? That's a better conversation to be had. It forces everyone to come out of the hyperbole bubble and have to put some logical skin into the conversation.
Can we do that (so I can get a few more pages of laughs at least)
Alpha should be [insert time frame] -> Beta should be [insert time frame] -> Early Access should be [insert time frame]
Do you think we need a Gamma Testing phase? Discuss.
I thought so...
As you all were.
"As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*"
Your argument wasn't reasonable at all, that's just a next level arm-chair developer right there, you'd have to be a professional game dev to have one informed view on how long it is reasonable a game to take, and you can't have any numbers like it's some sort of "industry standard" because there's no such thing.
Again- We are the ones that were TOLD the game would release in 2014. It's now 2018. So the people who didn't grasp the "scale and complexity" were the developers. Stop blaming consumers for the expectations created by the developers. I don't want to hear anything about them changing the scope of the game. I don't want to hear anything about them adding features. I sure as hell didn't tell them to go all Space Marine.
6 years ago I bought 3 accounts because I wanted to play SQ42 along with my friends. Since then it has changed so we can no longer even play together, and instead of 2014 it's August 2018 and no end in sight.
I don't think you understand how angry you, Babba and the others make people like me when you callously dismiss legitimate concerns.
That's a beaten dead horse, beyond the game SC was in 2014, no point on keeping bringing this up like this whole thing didn't push towards expanding itself, especially when it came to technology. If you didn't agree with the scope increase and the expansion things faced on things as the actual move to have the gameplay planets not only in space and so forth and the following delays, you should have withdrawn from SC a long time ago, to bring that argument in 2018 one would expect you would have gotten over that.
I don't consider that a concern, just someone who never got over what happened in those first years of the project where things changed because that's not a present concern.
Like I said... I don’t think you understand how angry you and the others make people like me when you callously dismiss legitimate concerns. You do far more damage than the “haters” ever could.
You had YEARS to get out if you are angry and do not like the project anymore.
So - frankly - I do not care if you are angry NOW and consider your claim of "legitimate concerns" laughable.
It will be done when it is done.
Have fun
Luckily I don’t give a shit if you care or not. 99% of the population understands that when you miss your date by 4 years and counting it’s a legitimate concern.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I guess that explains why after 4 years Star Citizen keeps getting more players, more money and no competition in sight that comes close to it's ambition scale and scope lol
You can't estimate the time to do something that has never been done.
Explain that to the people that did it... the developers, and stop blaming the customers for believing them. They set the expectations, and the revised expectations, and the ones after that.
There is no going back in time, but you have to acknowledge that the expectations were set by the developers. There are very few bigger CR/Wing Commander fans than I am. But guys like you who refuse to even acknowledge that the devs make mistakes just piss me off. It makes me question who is real and who is actually a Goon role playing a cartoon character.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Your argument wasn't reasonable at all, that's just a next level arm-chair developer right there, you'd have to be a professional game dev to have one informed view on how long it is reasonable a game to take, and you can't have any numbers like it's some sort of "industry standard" because there's no such thing.
Or, and I know this is tough to understand for some of the fans, we can answer FlyByKnight with our opinions on the matter and not resort to the shit excuse of you’re not a developer so you can’t have that conversation.
Everyone I know aren’t meteorologists but we still talk about the weather and no one tries to stop us because we don’t have the requisite experience or training.
Or, and I know this is tough to understand for some of the fans, we can answer FlyByKnight with our opinions on the matter and not resort to the shit excuse of you’re not a developer so you can’t have that conversation.
Everyone I know aren’t meteorologists but we still talk about the weather and no one tries to stop us because we don’t have the requisite experience or training.
Sure, a let's play pretend professional game developers like that will ever add that supposed "logical skin" to the discussion, it's no better than the armchair lawyering.
So we get Wizardry posting "oh yeah 1 week tops" so I can facepalm myself oblivion.
Or, and I know this is tough to understand for some of the fans, we can answer FlyByKnight with our opinions on the matter and not resort to the shit excuse of you’re not a developer so you can’t have that conversation.
Everyone I know aren’t meteorologists but we still talk about the weather and no one tries to stop us because we don’t have the requisite experience or training.
Sure, a let's play pretend professional game developers like that will ever add that supposed "logical skin" to the discussion, it's no better than the armchair lawyering.
So we get Wizardry posting "oh yeah 1 week tops" so I can facepalm myself oblivion.
It’s a game forum. Do you really think people come here to find expert advice on how long it takes to create a game? Or maybe it’s so people can discuss, laugh about, defend, etc their favourite games?
How about you learn to relax a little? Do these forum threads ever strike you as logical? I mean if you are taking them this seriously maybe it’s time to step away from the Defense of those poor poor devs for a while
It’s a game forum. Do you really think people come here to find expert advice on how long it takes to create a game? Or maybe it’s so people can discuss, laugh about, defend, etc their favourite games?
How about you learn to relax a little? Do these forum threads ever strike you as logical? I mean if you are taking them this seriously maybe it’s time to step away from the Defense of those poor poor devs for a while
What? There's no lack of people on this forum telling game developers how to develop games (especially on balance that one never gets old), sometimes it's just plain cringy like the Wizard guy holy bananas O_o
That perception seems to be why people tend to be so salty at how <introduce MMO in development here> is developed, I think that's one of the main topics always being hammered around here heh
Projects are estimated all the time and most estimates are "about right". If a startup gets it wrong initially it either learns or goes out of business. Estimating is a skill set however embodied within commercial staff or project managers etc; big companies may even employ dedicated estimators. There are toolsets as well. And processes that you need to have in place.
One of the problems with a crowdfunded project however is the drip feed of money - especially at the start - and the "public glare". So:
You have launched your project you ahev raised some money the wolves are baying "so me the code". Do you employ a) a programmer and buy the toolsets they need or b) one of those folks that knows how to estimate and buy the toolsets they need and put the processes in place.
You hire the ... programmer right. And get them to give it there best guess. Anyone can estimate yes?
Whenever you get a thread about a company laying off staff there are usually some who say they are getting rid of the deadwood who don't code! Estimating is a skillset.
The good news for SC is that RSI seem to have learnt / evolved / matured. Maybe coupled with having enough money to finish. Unless anyone believes they are operating exactly as they did last year things have changed.
As evidenced by 3.1 and 3.2. With no sign that 3.3. won't happen.
The good news for SC is that RSI seem to have learnt / evolved / matured. Maybe coupled with having enough money to finish. Unless anyone believes they are operating exactly as they did last year things have changed.
As evidenced by 3.1 and 3.2. With no sign that 3.3. won't happen.
Simply because they decided to do these short and medium term roadmaps public and commit with quarterly releases.
Now they will no longer commit with longer-term estimates because those estimates will be ignored the moment they either want to work more on something, refactor it, develop new tech, whatever it is, they have that maneuverability.
Their fail was ever giving release dates and then when they wanted to expand the scope and take more time developing technology and so forth (such as achieving procedural planets to what was once small maps in on-rails loadings), their estimates went down the drain.
I guess that explains why after 4 years Star Citizen keeps getting more players, more money and no competition in sight that comes close to it's ambition scale and scope lol
Welcome to the Verse of the 1%'ers
Hard to compete with something that only exist on paper, and in the fevered delusions of those desperate to justify the money they've wasted on a pipe dream.
There will never be a Star Citizen release. A release would quickly result in a hard flop when the game matches almost none of the hype or expectations. A hard flop will mean a quickly penniless Chris Roberts. A penniless Chris Roberts will no longer be able to keep his trophy wife supplied with bon-bon's and botox. She will then leave him for one of the guys at the country club he'll no longer be able to afford a membership to. Idiots continuing to give him money for nothing keeps him married and happy.
Strangly enough that which "only exists on paper" is being played by a lot of people every day.
And that "which only exists on paper" can be viewed in thousands of fan made videos of often stunning quality on YouTube, with some selected ones also linked here in this subforum in the video thread.
So ... proof from reality contradicts your statement. I wonder who is the one with "fevered delusions" here.
And you can take your envy of Chris Robert, his wife and the financial power of crowdfunding backers back to the dark corners of your mind, where it can become even more rotten and corrupted.
The good news for SC is that RSI seem to have learnt / evolved / matured. Maybe coupled with having enough money to finish. Unless anyone believes they are operating exactly as they did last year things have changed.
As evidenced by 3.1 and 3.2. With no sign that 3.3. won't happen.
They haven't really learned.
Their style of pushing content out regularly looks better, but there're still delaying stuff like crazy. Now they can just do stuff like successfully release mining in 3.2, then successfully release delayed parts (asteroids) in 3.3, and if need to be again release successfully delayed and unfinished parts in 3.4, etc.
CIG is making constant progress, and I think it's better for the backers, but their release estimations of the big stuff still suck.
Their style of pushing content out regularly looks better, but there're still delaying stuff like crazy. Now they can just do stuff like successfully release mining in 3.2, then successfully release delayed parts (asteroids) in 3.3, and if need to be again release successfully delayed and unfinished parts in 3.4, etc.
CIG is making constant progress, and I think it's better for the backers, but their release estimations of the big stuff still suck.
There's nothing to learn, it's simply a development method, aggressive scheduling is a common practice. You should read how this method tends to work, what are its benefits and disadvantages, and you'll understand why it fluctuates so much internally as it does. It's all disclaimed.
This is no small project, with hundreds of developers, and with all of them having to estimate 1 year worth of their work on things they haven't even started, it obviously accumulates to what it is now, they can't guarantee both the release date and the feature-set.
Their style of pushing content out regularly looks better, but there're still delaying stuff like crazy. Now they can just do stuff like successfully release mining in 3.2, then successfully release delayed parts (asteroids) in 3.3, and if need to be again release successfully delayed and unfinished parts in 3.4, etc.
CIG is making constant progress, and I think it's better for the backers, but their release estimations of the big stuff still suck.
There's nothing to learn
Then we agree that they haven't learned, and just have different opinions on whether they have been able to do since Kickstarter launch or not.
Then we agree that they haven't learned, and just have different opinions on whether they have been able to do since Kickstarter launch or not.
It's a development reality, what you describe it's just one of the most known disadvantage of it, there's nothing to learn there because it's just how aggressive scheduling works; you're free to stand your opinion that reality is because of incompetence but having worked and seen this type of practice in first hand, it's simply its nature, and it works.
What can I view? Oh, you mean a couple of buggy, half working "modules"? Because I sure as hell haven't seen any videos of "Star Citizen: The Fully Functional Game" anywhere. I'm sorry you wasted your money to pay toward Chris Robert's car payments, man, but you gotta come back to reality soon or you may be lost forever.
>>>> Because I sure as hell haven't seen any videos of "Star Citizen: The Fully Functional Game" anywhere. >>>>
Because the game has not been launched yet, if that has escaped your attention so far. ;-)
>>> Oh, you mean a couple of buggy, half working "modules"? >>>
Try Youtube, "Star Citizen", fan made movies. You will find thousands. Try the video thread here in this subforum. Hundreds to be found there. Try to view more than a Goon made Worst-of-Bugs video.
>>> I'm sorry you wasted your money >>>
I have not wasted my money. I got more than my fair share of entertainment out of Star Citizen already, having a lot of fun along the way. Well worth my single "Rear Admiral" package with my trusted Conny.
I got plenty of reality in my job, thank you very much. I enjoy exploring virtual sci-fi realities once in a while. I do not get lost - i just switch off the power ;-)
Comments
What are they?
What kind of engagement do they require from the player?
200 million already? I tought I was the designated financial announcer , seems i missed this one
They do have an idea. But their estimates are too optimistic. For a variety of reasons.
Have fun
Giving a date and then missing it here or there? Ok fine shit happens and something got delayed which delayed everything else. But constantly missing dates? You either have a very inept work force or you have no idea what the hell you are talking about and are promising things your workforce is incapable of delivering.
If your main focus is doing something at all costs the "estimated release date" is not a priority.
The "it's done when it's done" moto can work wonders for studios with the big pockets to support it.
Blizzard is famous for it. Project Red is doing the same with Cyberpunk and so on...
With that said CIG did change it's aproach and is now focusing on dates at the cost of features.
That's why they've been able to release all their quarterly patches on time.
Ps- Complaining about crowdfunded games is like going to a casino and complaining about losing money
I can understand the frustration but can't have no sympathy lol
>>>
There's no point on demand more long-term speculation from the developers because it will be the status of the game itself that will define when it is releasable, hence why they just continually develop and release updates. Still ways to go.
They simply have that maneuverability, and they make use of it, for the better and for the worse.
As you all were.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Welcome to the Verse of the 1%'ers
There is no going back in time, but you have to acknowledge that the expectations were set by the developers. There are very few bigger CR/Wing Commander fans than I am. But guys like you who refuse to even acknowledge that the devs make mistakes just piss me off. It makes me question who is real and who is actually a Goon role playing a cartoon character.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Everyone I know aren’t meteorologists but we still talk about the weather and no one tries to stop us because we don’t have the requisite experience or training.
So we get Wizardry posting "oh yeah 1 week tops" so I can facepalm myself oblivion.
How about you learn to relax a little? Do these forum threads ever strike you as logical? I mean if you are taking them this seriously maybe it’s time to step away from the Defense of those poor poor devs for a while
That perception seems to be why people tend to be so salty at how <introduce MMO in development here> is developed, I think that's one of the main topics always being hammered around here heh
One of the problems with a crowdfunded project however is the drip feed of money - especially at the start - and the "public glare". So:
You have launched your project you ahev raised some money the wolves are baying "so me the code". Do you employ a) a programmer and buy the toolsets they need or b) one of those folks that knows how to estimate and buy the toolsets they need and put the processes in place.
You hire the ... programmer right. And get them to give it there best guess. Anyone can estimate yes?
Whenever you get a thread about a company laying off staff there are usually some who say they are getting rid of the deadwood who don't code! Estimating is a skillset.
The good news for SC is that RSI seem to have learnt / evolved / matured. Maybe coupled with having enough money to finish. Unless anyone believes they are operating exactly as they did last year things have changed.
As evidenced by 3.1 and 3.2. With no sign that 3.3. won't happen.
Now they will no longer commit with longer-term estimates because those estimates will be ignored the moment they either want to work more on something, refactor it, develop new tech, whatever it is, they have that maneuverability.
Their fail was ever giving release dates and then when they wanted to expand the scope and take more time developing technology and so forth (such as achieving procedural planets to what was once small maps in on-rails loadings), their estimates went down the drain.
Their style of pushing content out regularly looks better, but there're still delaying stuff like crazy. Now they can just do stuff like successfully release mining in 3.2, then successfully release delayed parts (asteroids) in 3.3, and if need to be again release successfully delayed and unfinished parts in 3.4, etc.
CIG is making constant progress, and I think it's better for the backers, but their release estimations of the big stuff still suck.
This is no small project, with hundreds of developers, and with all of them having to estimate 1 year worth of their work on things they haven't even started, it obviously accumulates to what it is now, they can't guarantee both the release date and the feature-set.