Groundbreaking AI is in!!!

kikoodutroa8

This must be the subsubtion Chris Roberts promised!

TheScavenger

If you buy a 1000 dollar jpeg image for each NPC, you can imagine what the AI WILL be like and support the game. You'll also get your very own cardboard cutout of that NPC to showcase in the game

Erillion

You DO understand the concept of an Alpha test server and player bug reporting, do you not ?

Have fun

Incomparable

For how long the game has been in development its not nice to see, even if its a bug saved for later as a quick fix with other more important bugs being ironed out first.

Thats why games shouldn't take that long to develop, since we can only assume so much in favor of the company before feeling a bit naive. 

Phry

TheScavenger said:

If you buy a 1000 dollar jpeg image for each NPC, you can imagine what the AI WILL be like and support the game. You'll also get your very own cardboard cutout of that NPC to showcase in the game

So they are now selling virtual people as well as virtual ships, i guess that means they can vary the prices by how attractive the NPC is, with the Amy Schumer type being at the low end ($1) and a Scarlett Johansson type being at the higher end ($20k). 

Anthur

Don't know why you people see this so negative. Collision detection at least works and the npcs just behave like most people in real world. Turning around themselves aimlessly, having no clue what to do. So AI is quite accurate already, isn't it ?

@Phry Scarlett Johansson for 20k ? That sounds tempting.

Vrika

Anthur said:

Don't know why you people see this so negative.

Would you like to engage in FPS fight against opponents who behave like that.

If FPS portion of the game matters, then this matters. It's something CIG should be able to get fixed eventually, but it's that much more delay until they get FPS AI that works.

MaxBacon

@Rhoklaw that is not why AI is braindead in MMO's, it's because AI simulation is expensive on resources, MMO's that have more AI such as groups, like Black Desert Online really have the most ridiculously basic AI that you can notice the limitations even when you attack a group and the other AI doesn't move because they're waiting for you to kill some AI first before they move.

Star Citizen AI is simulated, this as, NPCs are given their own traits that determine needs/wants and you have something like the Sims where they'll just do their thing, the MMO standard is pretty much what ArenaNet did with GW2 that keeps it all under a scripted neverending loop.

So it's not about how complex AI gets to develop it's just that it's a multiplayer game and AI is being simulated on servers, not your PC.

Vrika said:

Would you like to engage in FPS fight against opponents who behave like that.

If FPS portion of the game matters, then this matters. It's something CIG should be able to get fixed eventually, but it's that much more delay until they get FPS AI that works.

That AI is not the FPS AI, the AI SC focus on rn is dogfighting and now the FPS AI, but what is shown there is just the scenery "the sims-like" AI that roams landing areas, collisions tend to mess up the AI, I've seen players moving one AI NPC from the space station out into space lol

Allowing collisions between players and AI is just not a good idea, from messing up their pathfinding to AI getting you stuck is lol

rpmcmurphy

I wish I could find the video where they were showing off the new AI reactions for Star Marine as if it was something to be proud of, it worked like this,

Player enters doorway, NPC has his back to player.
Player shoots at NPC
NPC fires gun in the direction he is facing (opposite direction of the player), slowly swivels 180 degrees while continuously firing his gun at everything like some damn Green Army Man parody sketch.

6 years, $200 million, 500 staff, so much braggadocio and that's where they are at...

MaxBacon

rpmcmurphy said:

I wish I could find the video where they were showing off the new AI reactions for Star Marine as if it was something to be proud of, it worked like this,

Player enters doorway, NPC has his back to player.
Player shoots at NPC
NPC fires gun in the direction he is facing (opposite direction of the player), slowly swivels 180 degrees while continuously firing his gun at everything like some damn Green Army Man parody sketch.

6 years, $200 million, 500 staff, so much braggadocio and that's where they are at...

FPS AI is one entire different beast, and it's something rarely combined with one MMO because there's so much edge involved, especially when the visuals are more photorealistic.

The trick is: A stormtrooper AI that doesn't look or feel like one.

Wizardry

Erillion said:

You DO understand the concept of an Alpha test server and player bug reporting, do you not ?

Have fun

So how long can one claim ALPHA test?
You do understand there are people showing videos on You Tube that can EASILY make an animated character within a few hours,maybe a day ?This game is into the YEARS of development,there is no excuse for ANYONE claiming to be a professional and can't get the characters into at least an acceptable state,it doesn't take 3/4/5 years.

This guy for example is doing a walkthrough of animating his model.There are of course engine/character properties,such as what type of property a model or item might have such as being a solid or semi solid or have full collision etc etc.

No matter how much effort is put into a model,it doesn't take or shouldn't take more than a week at tops.
So continually using an EXCUSE like "insert testing phase" is not acceptable from me.There are divisions..teams,it is not an entire project that all works at the exact same pace,the modelling guys will do their work on their time schedule,they are not afforded the luxury of taking years to get it right.
The ONLY part of game design that takes a very long time is in the overall design structure,tweaking the stats/numbers to get it right for both npc's and real players.Even a map that takes a lot longer than a player model/s should only take around 1-3 months depending on how in depth the map is or how much stuff is going on and how many assets had to be designed for that map.

Long winded point,too easy to make excuses,making a good product is what separates fact from fiction and until it is AAA it is ONLY fiction.

MaxBacon

Wizardry said:

No matter how much effort is put into a model,it doesn't take or shouldn't take more than a week at tops.
So continually using an EXCUSE like "insert testing phase" is not acceptable from me.There are divisions..teams,it is not an entire project that all works at the exact same pace,the modelling guys will do their work on their time schedule,they are not afforded the luxury of taking years to get it right.

You're delusional, animation takes the most time, we're talking about a motion-captured animated game, only one of the SC's mission givers has hundreds of specific animations that all need to work well together, from overall movement to facial expression, and over it, the uncanny factor needs to be constantly tweaked.

See by yourself: https://youtu.be/2A3ZvSq9Ueo?t=3m12s
^^ They can't get characters into one acceptable state? lol  A quest giver not only acceptable but higher quality than the standard for quest givers in MMO's around, from the animation to the facial expression, to proper syncing with the voice-acting, high care for details and the vibe of the character itself.

I sure want to see you do that in a week tops lol This mindless rants of yours are weirdly entertaining to read xD

Educational video moment:

Shodanas

I've seen fully released AAA titles with worse A.I

So, yeah..

Erillion

**** No matter how much effort is put into a model,it doesn't take or shouldn't take more than a week at tops.****

Strange. None of these animation experts claim they can do a full game animation for a AAA game in "a week tops". Only you say that. 

That tells me a lot. 


Have fun

Mendel

Odd.  All that stomping around, yet no ground appeared to actually be broken.

MightyUnclean

Erillion said:

You DO understand the concept of an Alpha test server and player bug reporting, do you not ?

Have fun

Of course we understand it.  It's the state games like this are stuck in year after year, so we've become quite well acquainted.

Babuinix

It's exactly because of dumb reactions like this one that the big game studios have to keep their development process behind closed doors lol

The "3 weeks top" armchair animator is the cherry on top lol

rpmcmurphy

Shodanas said:

I've seen fully released AAA titles with worse A.I

So, yeah..

Any examples?

It might possibly be better than Colonial Marines but that's not exactly something to get excited  about

MaxBacon

rpmcmurphy said:
Any examples?

It might possibly be better than Colonial Marines but that's not exactly something to get excited  about

Okay when dissing SC for its AI, one must consider SC has several systems of AI, starting with the AI dogfighting, the air traffic controller is also AI driven, the upcoming FPS AI, the first iteration of the "the sims like" AI added to some landing areas, and those other things that are set to come later such as ship AI crews.

So when you consider the whole picture of AI it's rather complex, and that is still a fraction because SC whole system is to be heavily AI driven, so AI traders and AI providing and answering service beacon to players, makes so AI will have to face great expansion over the time upon this first implementations.

See the AI bugs we see here is something other MMO's fix with scripted paths on a loop where the NPCs pretty much clip through you or just play one animation on colliding with a player, that method is superficial but at the same time mitigates the chances of bugs because no actual need to rely on simulation.

Especially because SQ42 on the mix, AI will be continuing being a major focus, so I wouldn't worry much about that, it's not a "if" because it's a "must" or the game ain't no gonna work.

rpmcmurphy

Well the video is about NPCs on foot so that would be as good a place as any to start.

MaxBacon

rpmcmurphy said:

Well the video is about NPCs on foot so that would be as good a place as any to start.

We would think that in a normal game but SC AI started with dogfighting as Arena Commander came out first, only recently ground NPCs did actually happen.

Those wandering NPCs seem to not be any priority for now, looking at roadmap it's all about Flight AI Behaviors, improvements and combat styles, and a ton of FPS AI work.

Vrika

MaxBacon said:

rpmcmurphy said:
Any examples?

It might possibly be better than Colonial Marines but that's not exactly something to get excited  about

Okay when dissing SC for its AI, one must consider SC has several systems of AI, starting with the AI dogfighting, the air traffic controller is also AI driven, the upcoming FPS AI, the first iteration of the "the sims like" AI added to some landing areas, and those other things that are set to come later such as ship AI crews.

So when you consider the whole picture of AI it's rather complex, and that is still a fraction because SC whole system is to be heavily AI driven, so AI traders and AI providing and answering service beacon to players, makes so AI will have to face great expansion over the time upon this first implementations.

See the AI bugs we see here is something other MMO's fix with scripted paths on a loop where the NPCs pretty much clip through you or just play one animation on colliding with a player, that method is superficial but at the same time mitigates the chances of bugs because no actual need to rely on simulation.

Especially because SQ42 on the mix, AI will be continuing being a major focus, so I wouldn't worry much about that, it's not a "if" because it's a "must" or the game ain't no gonna work.

TLDR: It's shit, but there's never been a pile of shit to big and complex before.

MaxBacon

Vrika said:

TLDR: It's shit, but there's never been a pile of shit to big and complex before.

Mechanic Faces Bugs = It's Shit. K. The wandering ground AI works, the ATC AI works, the dogfighting AI works, they all face occasional bugs. 

When Guild Wars 2 released, Jesus I remember tons of events and event chains and even story didn't work, people stuck unable to progress on their story for weeks and months because the AI would just stall in place, or just wouldn't spawn, took them months to fix the worse of it, and that was one released title.

But bloody hell, how dares SC to have buggy AI on the first implementations of entirely new systems? >.>

Is it just me or buggy released games face less backlash than buggy unreleased ones? hmm

rpmcmurphy

MaxBacon said:

rpmcmurphy said:

Well the video is about NPCs on foot so that would be as good a place as any to start.

We would think that in a normal game but SC AI started with dogfighting as Arena Commander came out first, only recently ground NPCs did actually happen.

Those wandering NPCs seem to not be any priority for now, looking at roadmap it's all about Flight AI Behaviors, improvements and combat styles, and a ton of FPS AI work.

That's all completely irrelevant to the question that was asked. If people want to say that SC's AI is  better than AI in other AAA games, the least they could do is state which games.

Quizzical

Rhoklaw said:

While I know for a fact AI is the best new approach to improving MMOs, there is literally no one financially strong enough to undergo that project. Creating algorithms for AI would probably take longer then creating the rest of the game by a few years. Maybe when some genius creates an engine with AI algorithms already complete, we'll be able to move forward. Until that happens, sit back, relax and enjoy your scripted and static environments, or as ArenaNet likes to glorify it, dynamic, lol.

The problem isn't so much that creating the AI algorithms takes too long as that it's risky.  Complex AI can lead to players finding creative ways to exploit it, or break the game in a variety of unanticipated ways that don't get discovered until you let a ton of people play the game and they find how to break it.

Quizzical

Mendel said:

Odd.  All that stomping around, yet no ground appeared to actually be broken.

Don't worry.  The next patch will offer jackhammers for $1000 each.