@Rhoklaw that is not why AI is braindead in MMO's, it's because AI simulation is expensive on resources, MMO's that have more AI such as groups, like Black Desert Online really have the most ridiculously basic AI that you can notice the limitations even when you attack a group and the other AI doesn't move because they're waiting for you to kill some AI first before they move.
Star Citizen AI is simulated, this as, NPCs are given their own traits that determine needs/wants and you have something like the Sims where they'll just do their thing, the MMO standard is pretty much what ArenaNet did with GW2 that keeps it all under a scripted neverending loop.
So it's not about how complex AI gets to develop it's just that it's a multiplayer game and AI is being simulated on servers, not your PC.
Would you like to engage in FPS fight against opponents who behave like that.
If FPS portion of the game matters, then this matters. It's something CIG should be able to get fixed eventually, but it's that much more delay until they get FPS AI that works.
That AI is not the FPS AI, the AI SC focus on rn is dogfighting and now the FPS AI, but what is shown there is just the scenery "the sims-like" AI that roams landing areas, collisions tend to mess up the AI, I've seen players moving one AI NPC from the space station out into space lol
Allowing collisions between players and AI is just not a good idea, from messing up their pathfinding to AI getting you stuck is lol
I think simulating AI would be a bit redundant. And there are already old multiplayer games that have collision with NPCs. I think GTA has them automatically get bumped to prevent blocking.
Skimpy despair trolling at it's finest That's what the haters have been reduced to lol
Star Citizen development is more interesting and generates more money than fully released and complete AAA games and that's also thanks to the haters lol
They are part of it's sucess too and that must hurt their already fragile souls
The argument is completely fair when white Knights keep comparing SC to completed games and saying SC is better then them. You want to compare it to fully finished games then I’m allowed to as well to show how ridiculous SC looks in comparison
Nobody on that discussion has said SC is better than completed games by pointing out AI elements, that's just your hyperbole by making others look like they're some sort of "extremists", like the Shodanas post.
The discussion was specifically about buggy AI vs AAA games, the arguments are useless and petty by nature, if one could play and see the AI mechanics of one AAA game in mid-dev then one could level a fair argument on a comparison, the reason why it is compared to released is because AAA dev won't let public access the game this early, at minimum is beta tests when the mechanics are already there and decently polished.
I think simulating AI would be a bit redundant. And there are already old multiplayer games that have collision with NPCs. I think GTA has them automatically get bumped to prevent blocking.
Oh it has to face simulation, especially FPS AI, it requires so much behaviors and such to be applied in such a dynamic way to ever feel smooth and right that they rely on all sorts of simulation, from the AI being capable to hear "noise", to sense you moving near them, to properly do pathfinding and find covers and such, it's all a ton of details of the sort that will "make it or break it".
GTA is heavily developed on that aspect but still has easy ways to not end up messed up with AI, such as the AI spawning and despawning as you move around, the AI issues are more common to MMO's because the whole game-world is persistent with all the AI entities on it, so when something derps it just stays that way and can lead to breaking issues.
SC does simulate AI on the way The Sims does it because of SQ42, where one of its features is the whole crew of the capital ship is just a living place (we're also set to have AI crews inside ships on the main game btw), NPCs sleep, eat, have their jobs, stories, etc... So they make it simulate and I think the reason is to be capable to provide a dynamic to the central HUB you'll spend quite a bunch of time on the story campaign.
The argument is completely fair when white Knights keep comparing SC to completed games and saying SC is better then them. You want to compare it to fully finished games then I’m allowed to as well to show how ridiculous SC looks in comparison
Nobody on that discussion has said SC is better than completed games by pointing out AI elements, that's just your hyperbole by making others look like they're some sort of "extremists", like the Shodanas post.
The discussion was specifically about buggy AI vs AAA games, the arguments are useless and petty by nature, if one could play and see the AI mechanics of one AAA game in mid-dev then one could level a fair argument on a comparison, the reason why it is compared to released is because AAA dev won't let public access the game this early, at minimum is beta tests when the mechanics are already there and decently polished.
I love it when you agree with my posts without even realizing it. If someone says they have seen worse AI in released games then they are indirectly saying SC has better AI. Not sure why that’s so hard a concept to wrap your head around.
I’ll say it again. If you want me to stop showing how stupid SC looks when compared to a fully released game then you need to stop doing the same and comparing it to fully released games to say how awesome it is. There are plenty of games in early access or alpha that don’t have an NDA that you can compare to if you’d like an even playing field.
Or are the fans afraid of comparing SC to a indie title in alpha/early access and still being made to look the fool because they can implement things faster/better and for less money?
I'm not even trying to be difficult. I'm just curious because I quite often see people say SC has more content than some AAA games but they never give examples and I'm just wondering what other games people are thinking about when saying the AI is better, because if SC's NPC AI is so goddamn awful right now then surely there would have been a lot of noise about a released AAA game with even worse AI which is why I brought up CM, it's the only thing I can think of.
Sea of Thieves (on the content argument); huge wasted potential that one.
Thanks for the example Max, my only other question is, is that an objective opinion or is it more subjective. How do we measure what has more content when fun is rather a subjective matter?
There were certainly expectations around SoT's release and people got less of a game than they were expecting so there's a fair chance that they will feel negatively biased towards it. At the same time they feel quite positively biased towards the other game they are comparing to. It makes me think the whole comparison is skewed to start with, I don't have much faith in people being objective, least of all gamers.
While I know for a fact AI is the best new approach to improving MMOs, there is literally no one financially strong enough to undergo that project. Creating algorithms for AI would probably take longer then creating the rest of the game by a few years. Maybe when some genius creates an engine with AI algorithms already complete, we'll be able to move forward. Until that happens, sit back, relax and enjoy your scripted and static environments, or as ArenaNet likes to glorify it, dynamic, lol.
The problem isn't so much that creating the AI algorithms takes too long as that it's risky. Complex AI can lead to players finding creative ways to exploit it, or break the game in a variety of unanticipated ways that don't get discovered until you let a ton of people play the game and they find how to break it.
On the other hand, if they are overly successful with the AI, then you run the risk of some in game character getting upset with your actions in the game and maybe doing something about it.. IRL.
Thanks for the example Max, my only other question is, is that an objective opinion or is it more subjective. How do we measure what has more content when fun is rather a subjective matter?
There were certainly expectations around SoT's release and people got less of a game than they were expecting so there's a fair chance that they will feel negatively biased towards it. At the same time they feel quite positively biased towards the other game they are comparing to. It makes me think the whole comparison is skewed to start with, I don't have much faith in people being objective, least of all gamers.
It's rather simple, about the length of gameplay it would offer in terms of unique content, on SC as we have AC, SM, the PU, with a mission content it does offer enough variety that lasts for longer, it's where SoT fell very short sadly.
Then all those people playing the "Free Fly Weekends" for free are obviously having mass hallucinations, as you said that Star Citizen is fraud and fake.
And let us not forget all those tenthousands of fan made videos about Star Citizen on YouTube. Fraud and Fake, the lot of them.
Interestingly enough, there was an article stating that Alien: Colonial Marines' dumb AI was due to a single typo. It wasn't discovered until a modder started fiddling with the code and noticed the mistake. Apparently, it made the A.I. work as intended and shown in original videos showcasing what it could do in the game.
Due to frequent travel in my youth, English isn't something I consider my primary language (and thus I obtained quirky ways of writing). German and French were always easier for me despite my family being U.S. citizens for over a century. Spanish I learned as a requirement in school, Japanese and Korean I acquired for my youthful desire of anime and gaming (and also work now). I only debate in English to help me work with it (and limit things). In addition, I'm not smart enough to remain fluent in everything and typically need exposure to get in the groove of things again if I haven't heard it in a while. If you understand Mandarin, I know a little, but it has actually been a challenge and could use some help.
Also, I thoroughly enjoy debates and have accounts on over a dozen sites for this. If you wish to engage in such, please put effort in a post and provide sources -- I will then do the same with what I already wrote (if I didn't) as well as with my responses to your own. Expanding my information on a subject makes my stance either change or strengthen the next time I speak of it or write a thesis. Allow me to thank you sincerely for your time.
Can someone explain why there is so much butthurt over this alpha? Are they the very same people on the official forums complaining that they cannot play ..er "test", the full game yet?
I drop in time to time to check out new features then I go back to whatever else I was playing. Big deal.
My opinion is this, IF they manage to pull off some of the features that they are trying to do, it's going to change MMORPGs. Isn't that what we need right now in modern MMORPGs, change? You really don't think other studios are just ignoring what SC is trying to do, are you guys?
Are they the very same people on the official forums complaining that they cannot play ..er "test", the full game yet?
No, the majority of the posters here are not backers at all, they just like to... well, be butthurt over SC for the time it's taking, after all, it is one incredibly successful crowdfund if it wasn't for that nobody would care.
NorseGod said: You really don't think other studios are just ignoring what SC is trying to do, are you guys?
Yes and No, what SC is doing is taking a lot of risks on what they're trying to do, it's a big turndown to any developer/publisher trying to create one MMO, when the success of the outcome is speculative, you won't see a lot of investment on that front. There's already a proven model for MMO's that is hugely profitable that new titles just kept on copying.
The same could be said for the genre itself, very little prospects on the "AAA MMO" front (large scale/budget projects), the gaming industry likes to go with the flow, such presently with a ton of games releasing and upcoming being Battle Royales.
Can someone explain why there is so much butthurt over this alpha? Are they the very same people on the official forums complaining that they cannot play ..er "test", the full game yet?
I drop in time to time to check out new features then I go back to whatever else I was playing. Big deal.
My opinion is this, IF they manage to pull off some of the features that they are trying to do, it's going to change MMORPGs. Isn't that what we need right now in modern MMORPGs, change? You really don't think other studios are just ignoring what SC is trying to do, are you guys?
So how many more years will it be before you think it's OK to criticize the game?
So how many more years will it be before you think it's OK to criticize the game?
Oh, is that your gripe? The fact they are not pumping out a cookie cutter WoW clone? I am ok with them taking longer than normal because they are attempting several features that have not been imagined before. But then again, I don't like current state of MMORPGs WoW-like copy and paste, so maybe I'm biased. If SC doesn't happen, I'll bet some of their ideas will make it into future MMORPGs.
So how many more years will it be before you think it's OK to criticize the game?
When it's actually released as a finished game and/or they stop working on it.
This is a game in development, complaining about bugs or incomplete features is not only dumb but a complete waste of time lol
One can go on youtube and find bugs and glitches of any released game so to say that a game in development is bad or a company is incompetent because of it is not only an extremely dumb thing to say but blatantly disingenuous.
Nothing new from the regular haters crew. Desperation is a sad and ugly place they are stuck in and this is one of the way's they find to release their inner frustration lol
So how many more years will it be before you think it's OK to criticize the game?
Oh, is that your gripe? The fact they are not pumping out a cookie cutter WoW clone? I am ok with them taking longer than normal because they are attempting several features that have not been imagined before. But then again, I don't like current state of MMORPGs WoW-like copy and paste, so maybe I'm biased. If SC doesn't happen, I'll bet some of their ideas will make it into future MMORPGs.
Just curious, how long are willing to wait? 2 more years, 3, 5 or even 10 years for release?
Is it unreasonable to ask for a rough idea when they are targeting the release of either game?
Why you ask? So I can plan on when to upgrade my hardware to play it. As a laptop gamer its not a simple matter of switching out a few components.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
So how many more years will it be before you think it's OK to criticize the game?
Oh, is that your gripe? The fact they are not pumping out a cookie cutter WoW clone? I am ok with them taking longer than normal because they are attempting several features that have not been imagined before. But then again, I don't like current state of MMORPGs WoW-like copy and paste, so maybe I'm biased. If SC doesn't happen, I'll bet some of their ideas will make it into future MMORPGs.
Just curious, how long are willing to wait? 2 more years, 3, 5 or even 10 years for release?
Is it unreasonable to ask for a rough idea when they are targeting the release of either game?
Why you ask? So I can plan on when to upgrade my hardware to play it. As a laptop gamer its not a simple matter of switching out a few components.
Kyleran watch the movie or rent it, called "Hell or High Water" CIG reminds me of Texas Midlands Bank in the Movie.
" Life Liberty and the Pursuit of Those Who Would Threaten It " MAGA
Are they the very same people on the official forums complaining that they cannot play ..er "test", the full game yet?
No, the majority of the posters here are not backers at all, they just like to... well, be butthurt over SC for the time it's taking, after all, it is one incredibly successful crowdfund if it wasn't for that nobody would care.
Not at all true, I'm plenty 'butthurt' over CUs long overdue release or solid delivery schedule and it has like what, less than a 10th of SCs budget and a paltry $4 or $5 M in crowdfunding?
I hold all Devs to similar standards but I guess when the dollars amp up I'm looking for increased accountability, a not unreasonable position I think.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
If SC doesn't happen, I'll bet some of their ideas will make it into future MMORPGs.
Oh, even if it doesn't happen!? Again, what features do you think will become mainstream in MMORPGs after SC pulls them off or doesn't release.
Glad you asked.
1) unified first/third person animations. no more cheating it, allowed. 2) physics grids, allowing vehicles inside of vehicles. 3) terrain following animations. 4) secondary view-ports, allowing holographic projections of people from remote locations. 5) SOLED, dynamic sky that give natural day night cycles, with each games respective planetary lore. No more static sky boxes. 6) the procedural planet tech. 7) city-ed tool, adaptable city creation of any type as long as the developers are willing to make the asset libraries for the time frame that their respective games will use. 8) spherical terrain sizes in the millions of km as the playable game space.
The above is just a preliminary listing not an exhaustive.
Comments
And there are already old multiplayer games that have collision with NPCs. I think GTA has them automatically get bumped to prevent blocking.
That's what the haters have been reduced to lol
Star Citizen development is more interesting and generates more money than fully released and complete AAA games and that's also thanks to the haters lol
They are part of it's sucess too and that must hurt their already fragile souls
That's the root of all that bitterness lol
Good.
It's only going to get bigger and bigger
The discussion was specifically about buggy AI vs AAA games, the arguments are useless and petty by nature, if one could play and see the AI mechanics of one AAA game in mid-dev then one could level a fair argument on a comparison, the reason why it is compared to released is because AAA dev won't let public access the game this early, at minimum is beta tests when the mechanics are already there and decently polished.
Oh it has to face simulation, especially FPS AI, it requires so much behaviors and such to be applied in such a dynamic way to ever feel smooth and right that they rely on all sorts of simulation, from the AI being capable to hear "noise", to sense you moving near them, to properly do pathfinding and find covers and such, it's all a ton of details of the sort that will "make it or break it".
GTA is heavily developed on that aspect but still has easy ways to not end up messed up with AI, such as the AI spawning and despawning as you move around, the AI issues are more common to MMO's because the whole game-world is persistent with all the AI entities on it, so when something derps it just stays that way and can lead to breaking issues.
SC does simulate AI on the way The Sims does it because of SQ42, where one of its features is the whole crew of the capital ship is just a living place (we're also set to have AI crews inside ships on the main game btw), NPCs sleep, eat, have their jobs, stories, etc... So they make it simulate and I think the reason is to be capable to provide a dynamic to the central HUB you'll spend quite a bunch of time on the story campaign.
I’ll say it again. If you want me to stop showing how stupid SC looks when compared to a fully released game then you need to stop doing the same and comparing it to fully released games to say how awesome it is. There are plenty of games in early access or alpha that don’t have an NDA that you can compare to if you’d like an even playing field.
Or are the fans afraid of comparing SC to a indie title in alpha/early access and still being made to look the fool because they can implement things faster/better and for less money?
There were certainly expectations around SoT's release and people got less of a game than they were expecting so there's a fair chance that they will feel negatively biased towards it. At the same time they feel quite positively biased towards the other game they are comparing to. It makes me think the whole comparison is skewed to start with, I don't have much faith in people being objective, least of all gamers.
http://gameon.studio/en/video-games-2/motion-capture-mocap/
https://logemas.com/motion-capture-technology/motion-capture-animation/
Wonder why none of you have shown your godlike work demos if you all are so godlike at making AI.
Hyperbolic hypocrisy much.
I drop in time to time to check out new features then I go back to whatever else I was playing. Big deal.
My opinion is this, IF they manage to pull off some of the features that they are trying to do, it's going to change MMORPGs. Isn't that what we need right now in modern MMORPGs, change? You really don't think other studios are just ignoring what SC is trying to do, are you guys?
..Cake..
Yes and No, what SC is doing is taking a lot of risks on what they're trying to do, it's a big turndown to any developer/publisher trying to create one MMO, when the success of the outcome is speculative, you won't see a lot of investment on that front. There's already a proven model for MMO's that is hugely profitable that new titles just kept on copying.
The same could be said for the genre itself, very little prospects on the "AAA MMO" front (large scale/budget projects), the gaming industry likes to go with the flow, such presently with a ton of games releasing and upcoming being Battle Royales.
Again, what features do you think will become mainstream in MMORPGs after SC pulls them off or doesn't release.
..Cake..
Develope systems for more dynamic player interaction.
Is it unreasonable to ask for a rough idea when they are targeting the release of either game?
Why you ask? So I can plan on when to upgrade my hardware to play it. As a laptop gamer its not a simple matter of switching out a few components.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Kyleran watch the movie or rent it, called "Hell or High Water" CIG reminds me of Texas Midlands Bank in the Movie.
MAGA
I hold all Devs to similar standards but I guess when the dollars amp up I'm looking for increased accountability, a not unreasonable position I think.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
1) unified first/third person animations. no more cheating it, allowed.
2) physics grids, allowing vehicles inside of vehicles.
3) terrain following animations.
4) secondary view-ports, allowing holographic projections of people from remote locations.
5) SOLED, dynamic sky that give natural day night cycles, with each games respective planetary lore. No more static sky boxes.
6) the procedural planet tech.
7) city-ed tool, adaptable city creation of any type as long as the developers are willing to make the asset libraries for the time frame that their respective games will use.
8) spherical terrain sizes in the millions of km as the playable game space.
The above is just a preliminary listing not an exhaustive.