Who can relate? What hard is to me in MMORPGs.

Kyleran

Lienhart said:

I went for a jog yesterday; I jog twice a week and lift heavy three times. 

During my jog, I saw a shadow approaching. At the pace it was going at, I assumed a bicycle. I did not see a wheel however. It then hit me; it wasn't a bicycle approaching, it was a fucking runner! And he was blazing fast. The speed at which he passed me at made me look like a fucking newbie. All of a sudden I had a burst of ambition and motivation to git gudder and let out the biggest smile as I admitted defeat and tried to increase my pace only to limp my ass back home. 

I haven't felt that way in years because I moved into the city and there is no competition here for physical prowess. Back in the boonies, I was one of the slowest and weakest, yet here in the heart of the city I can count the number of people stronger than me at my gym and haven't seen a runner like the above pass me for too long.

The story above pretty much sums up what happened with MMORPGs. Older MMORPGs were hard because they required cooperation,communication, and commitment. Remember skill chains in XI and the macros people used to alert others of what they were doing? Remember Lineage 2 and how gold farmers took over and some servers united as whole to fight back (I think we lost still lol)? It was also impossible to log on and get something done in 30 minutes.

Gaming went mainstream, and the bar to be competent was lowered as well. I went back to WoW recently and lasted 2 weeks before being bored out of my mind. Like you, I need a challenge. I need to be reminded that I fucking suck so I will push on; there is nothing worse than not having anything to challenge me. This is probably why MMORPGs took a back seat for me and FPS, RTS, and MOBAs took over.

Normally my advice would be for you to go out and play a good quality PVP centric MMORPG but....well, you know....

TEKK3N

Scot said:

I am thinking of getting all our "easy and difficult" threads together in the MMORPG.com arena and just let them slug it out. There can only be one!

Deathmatch?

MadFrenchie

ConstantineMerus said:

Kyleran said:

ConstantineMerus said:

Kyleran said:

DMKano said:

I can relate to the story part - for me they dont work in MMOs, since NPCs act as if you are the only player in the game.

Stories work great in single player games though, since you are the only one - the hero storyline actually makes sense.

As far as challenging and difficulty - single player games offer much more challenging gameplay.

MMOs rarely have any difficult content as they are made to cater to masses.

But social aspects > MMOs win - that's why I play them, been playing MMOs with the same group of friends for over 15 years now

I dunno why, but I imagine your group of friends being very much like all of those guys that assisted Wonder Woman through the wastelands of the WWI battlefront.

Cheers 

Or just like you

Naw, I'm an EVE player who joins groups which are more like the Crazy 88s from Kill Bill.  

Full of faceless, largely expendable warriors which don't even get named in the credits.

I'm not at all like Kano, I never play a game because my friends do, I just make new ones in whatever game I chose to play.

Lol. But jokes aside, I'm pretty much like you. I guess spending long durations of time in Nullsec changes a man.

But hey, I'm looking forward to play a game with you one day. Let's hope one of these MMOs gets released before the zombie apocalypse. 

Da fuq?  A zombie apocalypse would be the greatest MMMORPG ever made.  Perma-death, yet everyone will be participating.  It'll change the industry!

TheScavenger

Hard: True player skill required, that is not reliant on overpowered items or overleveling someone else. 

Examples:
-EVE Online (can kill people in starter rookie ship, and also contribute in pvp with proper loadouts of rookie ship that are also rather cheap and any rookie can get after doing the tutorial missions).
-Planetside 2 (where its true player skill).
-Or Dark Souls for singleplayer games
-Also games with good AI

Easy:
-Bullet/health sponges (does not make up for bad AI)
-AI getting overpowered bonuses to compensate for bad AI (this does not make up for bad AI and is lazy design)
-Ganking noobs with overpowered gear/levels/skills (this is carebear PvP)
-Grinding (this does not make a game hard, just tedious and boring. Artificial way to make easy content. This is a rat in a maze style mechanics)

ConstantineMerus

MadFrenchie said:

ConstantineMerus said:

Kyleran said:

ConstantineMerus said:

Kyleran said:

DMKano said:

I can relate to the story part - for me they dont work in MMOs, since NPCs act as if you are the only player in the game.

Stories work great in single player games though, since you are the only one - the hero storyline actually makes sense.

As far as challenging and difficulty - single player games offer much more challenging gameplay.

MMOs rarely have any difficult content as they are made to cater to masses.

But social aspects > MMOs win - that's why I play them, been playing MMOs with the same group of friends for over 15 years now

I dunno why, but I imagine your group of friends being very much like all of those guys that assisted Wonder Woman through the wastelands of the WWI battlefront.

Cheers 

Or just like you

Naw, I'm an EVE player who joins groups which are more like the Crazy 88s from Kill Bill.  

Full of faceless, largely expendable warriors which don't even get named in the credits.

I'm not at all like Kano, I never play a game because my friends do, I just make new ones in whatever game I chose to play.

Lol. But jokes aside, I'm pretty much like you. I guess spending long durations of time in Nullsec changes a man.

But hey, I'm looking forward to play a game with you one day. Let's hope one of these MMOs gets released before the zombie apocalypse. 

Da fuq?  A zombie apocalypse would be the greatest MMMORPG ever made.  Perma-death, yet everyone will be participating.  It'll change the industry!

Well it depends on the monetization. But I've thing is for sure. There will be no lootboxes!

Theocritus

They put in the ffa pvp stuff because none of them ever have enough pve content...like the previous post said, some of us just want a nice virtual world to hang out in and do stuff, not kill each other endlessly.

Kyleran

Theocritus said:

They put in the ffa pvp stuff because none of them ever have enough pve content...like the previous post said, some of us just want a nice virtual world to hang out in and do stuff, not kill each other endlessly.

You fail to appreciate your very important role in the gaming circle of life.

You build, they destroy, rinse repeat.

Wolves need to eat, you know.

kitarad

Kyleran said:

Theocritus said:

They put in the ffa pvp stuff because none of them ever have enough pve content...like the previous post said, some of us just want a nice virtual world to hang out in and do stuff, not kill each other endlessly.

You fail to appreciate your very important role in the gaming circle of life.

You build, they destroy, rinse repeat.

Wolves need to eat, you know.

But building takes more effort than destroying and the loss felt more acutely. So pure PvP should involve more of the conflict with equal losses to take the sting out.

Does anyone enjoy hours of work being wiped out in 2 minutes?

I understand this talk  of 'hard' involving skill in using a mouse and keyboard fast and quick but what about effort and time. That has no bearing on anything is it?

I am definitely out of the running for games like Dark Souls I don't have a snowball's chance of ever playing that game past the prologue. However I do play a lot of games. Are you saying than the gaming experience and fun I have is somewhat diminished because I cannot compete at the levels you all prefer. I suppose that is a point of view that only takes into account your own abilities and likes. Which is all right within your point of reference but it isn't universal . (Not with reference to you OP but the posters who responded so don't be offended) 

I don't think preferences can adequately gauge 'fun' because all of us are limited by our abilities. I find constantly being thwarted by difficult controls very bad and downright horrible and absolutely  no fun. 

I envy those of you who can play at those levels but I am not about to give up on the level of fun I have though. While there are those of you who mock others and think their abilities somehow guarantee a level of satisfaction and sense of achievement they are convinced only they can feel you forget there are numerous games and numerous ways to play. Thank heavens that  game developers however are clued in.

Oh dear that was another thread. Sorry so many threads with this theme I made a mistake, no one here mocked however.

TEKK3N

MisterZebub said:

And then tea bagging your corpse for an hour.... Not that I've ever done that to anyone in a MMORPG .... well not lately any way. It puzzles me that when quite a few gamers express interest over the building portions of sandbox games, houses, forts, farming, etc, the damn developers always have to lump all that in with hard core, open world, full loot PVP.

I am with you.

I just don't get it.

Sure, let's have some for sake of diversification, but all of them?

TEKK3N

Kyleran said:

Theocritus said:

They put in the ffa pvp stuff because none of them ever have enough pve content...like the previous post said, some of us just want a nice virtual world to hang out in and do stuff, not kill each other endlessly.

You fail to appreciate your very important role in the gaming circle of life.

You build, they destroy, rinse repeat.

Wolves need to eat, you know.

Wolves are cute, but not necessary.
In places where they are extinct, the fauna is thriving.
Who needs the wolves?

AlBQuirky

deniter said:

In short, MMORPGs should be this:



..instead of this:

I see 4, maybe 5 (blue jean knee by wood slat and orange hat in branches) folks in the top pic. Helluvalot more in the bottom. You sure the top one is an MMO? Looks more like a MOBA to me...

Amathe

deniter said:

In short, MMORPGs should be this:



..instead of this:

I am now very hungry and I blame you.

deniter

AlBQuirky said:

deniter said:

In short, MMORPGs should be this:



..instead of this:

I see 4, maybe 5 (blue jean knee by wood slat and orange hat in branches) folks in the top pic. Helluvalot more in the bottom. You sure the top one is an MMO? Looks more like a MOBA to me...

People in the first picture are doing instanced dungeon while the second one is from a non-instanced quest hub where they hand in quests and claim their rewards?

As a more serious note, modern MMORPGs are mostly about queuing and claiming rewards. Very little happens in between and players often want to make it go even faster by saying go-go-go-go.

AlBQuirky

Theocritus said:

They put in the ffa pvp stuff because none of them ever have enough pve content...like the previous post said, some of us just want a nice virtual world to hang out in and do stuff, not kill each other endlessly.

Talk about a "grind!" "

Dwaaawfful

I'm no fan of easy resurrection* because it takes away the sense of risk, but by the same token tragic demises that cost you dear in terms of xp or equipment — or time — are even worse bugbears.

That's why I'm enjoying the balance offered by both DDO Online and Darkest Dungeon.

In DDO Online, death comes with a penalty, and you're not instantly rebooted back into the action. But there are few tedious sanctions beyond this.

Darkest Dungeon lays the deal out straigh by saying DEATH = DEATH — and works well within those constraints to get you thinking strategically about your gameplay.

For true death, you have to recreate the sorry days of loading up Eye of the Beholder on the Amiga and taking on the spiders on L3 without an internet walkthrough.

In all my years of gaming, no death has ever felt more final.

If memory serves me correctly, death meant you had to reboot the game from floppies ... and it took forever.

Worst part?

The spiders got you AGAIN and AGAIN and AGAIN ...

* Great T Shirt slogan, peoples.

Hawkaya399

Theocritus said:

They put in the ffa pvp stuff because none of them ever have enough pve content...like the previous post said, some of us just want a nice virtual world to hang out in and do stuff, not kill each other endlessly.

I always find myself in a unique position. I want both. You see, I've never been a pure PvPer. I see them all the time. Of the four traditional gamer types (Achiever, Explorer, Killer, Socializer), they have a very strong killer score. This isn't a complete system of gamer types or their psychology, but it's a beginning to understanding hte differences between players. And since these things combine together, nobody is truly one or the other. We're all a mishmash of things with stronger and weaker elemtns defining us. Even a weak element can have an impact in your experience.

Seperated by years, I got consistent scores in different tests. My score looks something like this

Explorer 12

Achiever 11

Killer 7

Socializer 4

I generally do not like to be the aggressor in PvP. I am always troubled by whether my actions hurt another. Paradoxically, I don't hate griefers. I see them as just part of the universe hierarchy, sort of how hot and cold, calm and raging, and good and bad are yin and yang. I like being in a fantasy world where they're free to act on their impulses, and I am free to oppose where I can.  The capacity to do both good and evil, at least in fictional form, is a rich source of story and meaning for me. It's a sandbox, in all truth.

So ya, I want PvE and PvP in one MMO. I do find it, fortunately. I don't ALWAYS do it this way though. Sometimes I play PvE-only MMORPGs.

In many PvP open world MMORPGs they suffer from monopoly of power. This happens when single players or gropus of players become so powerful they reign supreme over the weak, and thus snuff out enjoyment for a vast population. This is sort of one of the issues with "the commons". In RL, death, periodic disaster and upheavel seems to counteract it. However, if you sit back and do nothing it can eventually resovle itself--not easy to do. This happened somewhat in Shadowbane. I read an account about it. Long story short, a powerful alliance destroyed all beneath them. If you joined the alliance, you could live in peace and gain lots of gold, but it wasn't PvP anymore, and you weren't free to do it your way. What happened was the members in this allliance grew bored. Many players quit. Many new players felt left out and didn't want to play. A small group of the alliance rebelled and intentionally allowed an upstart to grow in power, until, at its peak, the alliance crumbled and the upstarts conquered.

I think one of the most epic PvE/PvP MMORPG attempts would have to be the story--err the birth--of the Darktide server.

Information about Darktide below:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wVKWWkp0hU

Adamantine

Well, there are two extremes that a game should avoid:

- A game thats too easy because then its boring. If you win without even trying, whats the point. There is no archievement.

- A game thats too hard because then its frustrating. If all you do is fail and fail and fail over and over and over, then at some point you will just give up.

Phaserlight

DMKano said:

I can relate to the story part - for me they dont work in MMOs, since NPCs act as if you are the only player in the game.

Stories work great in single player games though, since you are the only one - the hero storyline actually makes sense.

As far as challenging and difficulty - single player games offer much more challenging gameplay.

MMOs rarely have any difficult content as they are made to cater to masses.

But social aspects > MMOs win - that's why I play them, been playing MMOs with the same group of friends for over 15 years now

It depends on how NPCs manifest, and how they are written.  I've authored several story arcs over the years, and kept firmly in mind that the NPCs will be interacting with many players.

I think people tend to imagine a character dressed in garb standing still with an exclamation point over his head when they see "NPC", but this doesn't have to be the case at all.  The concept is quite elastic.

Phaserlight

Hawkaya399 said:

Please don't be offended by this. I'm really just wondering how alone I am on this. I've posted in so many forums over the years and born witness to so many flames, I'm not interested at all in that. Try to keep a cool head here.

For me it's hard if I'm dying enough and feel like I'm struggling to win fights or do things in general. If it feels like it's not a struggle, I lose interest. Why fight for something if it's easy? If I see others struggling, it makes me feel like it's worth playing. If someone else says "Don't worry it's easier past level 10" then I lose interest. Worse still, if a guildie gives me a backpack full of superior equipment, I have to decline and it's like ripping my heart apart because the guildie is only trying to help. I lose interest.

Yet I'm always chasing the cookie. I always wnat to have better gear to be my best. I like to scour over all my options. The irony is if I have too many cookies hten I lose interest. It's not worth climinbg to the summit to get the cookie if cookies are everywhere. If there're no more cookies then there's no reason to play.

I don't like hand holding either. I hate automaps and radars and glowies. I like slow travel, as long as there're things to see and dangers to avoid. I prefer some fast travel like horses, ships and teleportation, but it has to be worked for and there still needsto be dangers (like fast moving monsters or teleportation mishaps). I hate hand outs. I like item degredation/repairing.

So mainly I want competition and for things to be hard to get. I like struggle.

I've always mostly played on ffa open world PvP servers  because if I don't then I lose interest faster. It's like the difference  between climbing a everyday hill and a big scary hill. If you're an avid climber, the commonplace one is less interesting and not as rewarding. When a mmo looks like it's everyday (re: easy), even if it's not grindy, i'll choose hte grindy one instead just because the grind itself can be a challenge to overcome. This isn't because I like grind, but because grind is an obstacle to fight against.

The problem in MMO's is simple. They're trying to be fun for everyone in a shared space. They try to make everyone feel like a hero. The trouble is if everyone is a hero then nobody is a hero. This goes back to my analogy to climbing the summit for the cookie. If cookies are everywhere then there's no point in doing the climb. You have to voluntarily ignore everybody else and play it like a singleplayer game to feel rewarded. The result is MMO's are becoming like single player games by reinforcing the personal quest over all else. Other players are a gimmick.

It's better to play a game where you're a peasant crushed underfoot by griefers in a grindfest of painful proportion then ti's to be a hero alone.

And frankly if I want a story I prefer reading books. Stories in games never work well on me because why use a computer if you're not going to interact? Stories aren't about interaction. They're diametrically opposed to the strongest feature computers have. They're set in stone and have to be meticulously crafted to maintain pace and coherence, especially when they have multiple paths. I say--for computers at least--set us free into a sandbox world and let US make hte story in our efforts to be king of the hill. Many stories can be written about our trials and tribulations. Many things can be felt in the losses and victories. It doesn't have to be premade. It's the human imagination unleashed in natural impulses, wrapped in desire, pain and self sacrifice.

And I've lived this. I don't speak as a third party. I've been there and done that. And I'd never trade it for a premade story. My story has many warts and pains. I was angry and hurt just as much as I smiled. I probablyu lost as much as I gained. I never became king. I don't think I ever graduated from peasant first class. That's not what matters. It's the journey I came to love. I didn't dwell on the summit, but it helped make it meaningful. I admired those higher up the mountain than me. I admired those below me. It was pure magic. Mere words do not do it justice. It was alive.

I agree and relate to everything up until your ninth paragraph.  I too enjoy being challenged, but also realize that what may be easy for me might be difficult for another, or vice versa.  In design, better to err on the side of ease except in a few cases; if I can relate it to mountaineering an ideal landscape would be mostly class 1-3 climbs with a few 4s and 5s for the brave.  You can choose to ascend any peak you like, are capable of, and prepared for.  An MMORPG with horizontal progression (or diagonal progression, my new favorite term) should sort of be like this as a very rough analogy.

I disagree that stories are diametrically opposed to computers' strongest feature (I think you mean interactivity).  Stories by nature are interactive, and computers are a great way to experience stories.

There are scripted and unscripted stories, which is where your distinction lies.  Ideally, there should be a mix of the two; perhaps there is some general, universal arc that is occurring (one of many), within that there are smaller story arcs that rise and fall but may not be the same for any two given players, and within those there are differences in how the story arcs play out.

Palebane

I feel you OP, but interactive stories are better than set in stone ones, imo. Good games can tell you many different stories within the same game, either through side quests or multiple playthroughs with different classes or alignments.

As far as difficulty goes, I know some people are just very adverse to this, but there are many ways to make a game harder if you just have even a glimmer of imagination. Some people just rely on the games to do everything for them, imo.

Ungood

Hawkaya399 said:

Please don't be offended by this. I'm really just wondering how alone I am on this. I've posted in so many forums over the years and born witness to so many flames, I'm not interested at all in that. Try to keep a cool head here.

Let me ask you a question. If there is only one Cookie, why should the second person bother to climb the summit?

Sovrath

DMKano said:

I can relate to the story part - for me they dont work in MMOs, since NPCs act as if you are the only player in the game.

That's still odd to me that you can't separate the single player aspects from the multiplayer aspects. But "whatever."

I do agree that story shouldn't be in an mmorpg unless it's a larger "world story" where everyone is experiencing the fallout, trials/tribulations.

For example, your country is being invaded. Things would happen because of this. Done.

Otherwise these quests become busy work. run here do a little of something and run back.

Also the original post starts out confusing:

"For me it's hard if I'm dying enough and feel like I'm struggling to win fights or do things in general. If it feels like it's not a struggle, I lose interest. Why fight for something if it's easy?"

he doesn't like dying enough or if he's struggling ot win fights but he wants a struggle?

Wizardry

I guess i share the OP's thoughts because for me my first days in FFXI as a Taru Whm were extremely rough.Then the fact there was never any hand holding,yeah it was like a real life struggle.

Fast forward many years and now i play Atlas,wow it is VERY tough,you die a lot ,nothing comes easy,you have to keep your guard up at all times,always a snake/Cobra or a croc lurking in the water.Look around all is clear,nope maybe a giant Fire Ele way above your  head ready to rain down fireballs....run for the water,oh and while running for the water a Lion leaps and grabs hold taking you down for the death count.

Running low on a vitamin,need to dive in the frigid water to get some fish or maybe i need a vegetable but can't find any because i am in a Polar zone.Wolves constantly roaming the beaches,Yheti in the Polar zones ready to smash you into pieces.You can FREELY build as long as not directly in conflict with someone else's work but the distance is not too bad,like about 15-20 or so feet in real life.

Bottom line is that i also like the realistic feel to my gaming,it's why i can't stand moba's or Arpg's or basically ANY game with hand holding markers.So yeah the games i end up choosing all seem to share the same ideals,immersion,a realistic feeling,feels like i am in control of my character.

aummoid

Hawkaya399 said:

The problem in MMO's is simple. They're trying to be fun for everyone in a shared space.

Someone give this guy $100 million and a development studio.

AlBQuirky

Adamantine said:

Well, there are two extremes that a game should avoid:

- A game thats too easy because then its boring. If you win without even trying, whats the point. There is no archievement.

- A game thats too hard because then its frustrating. If all you do is fail and fail and fail over and over and over, then at some point you will just give up.

The fun part is each individual player has their own "scale" for this