I don't understand why people prefer AI Challenging while you can just hire other people to play as bosses , mobs and NPCs .
I prefer a world run by human instead of AI .
Humans have biases which can be good or bad.
More importantly, NPCs are normally programmed so the player can always eventually win.
Human opponents are not so forgiving and there are many who will never lose or even put themselves in a position to, which is why most gamers hate playing against them.
Gamers often clamor for more challenging AI, but it can't be so challenging they can never be beaten, then players wont come.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
As for the original question, I've always thought that the MMORPG genre should focus on more than just combat and crafting. A game that introduces anything beyond these two systems will be seen as innovative. Politics, religion, social gatherings, communal magics, etc. -- each of these could be be abstracted and developed as major game systems. Success as a game may require something else entirely, though.
I'd like to see an MMORPG that actually focused on the RP aspect. Something that defines what RP is for that game, recognizes players engaging in 'good' RP, and provides in-game rewards. A game with a solid RP aspect should be able to reward the player not only for defeating a mob, but also when they are simply hanging around in a tavern. Break the 'fighting = success' mentality of the RP genre.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Gamers often clamor for more challenging AI, but it can't be so challenging they can never be beaten, then players wont come.
Not just that the NPCs must be beatable. They must be beatable by everyone solo to avoid "forced grouping." *wink*
There is a difference between areas that require grouping then a game that forces all or most to group up to advance. People want a choice to solo. It was only popular in one game EQ.
See in even a game like Anthem where you automatically dropped into groups or players added to your missions it's fine. That is fine CoOp. Even then you can solo.
In an MMORPG I am doing my own thing. It should be more than combat. You can require your player to visit a player repair shop or treatment from a doctor or any amount of non combat methods that feel natural.
I should be able to kill a wolf or rabbit by myself. That feels forced and unnatural. I refuse to believe my hero can't beat any equally level guys in the world. It sucks and metrics show most players don't want it.
Does it mean leveling up? Or does it mean there is a solo path to every reward in the game? Or to nearly every one?
What happens when you hit max level as a soloer? What must there be for the soloer then to "advance?"
The answers to these questions may shed some light on whether we are talking about being able to solo sometimes, or reducing the game to an ez-mode experience where everyone is THE hero who can meet any challenge alone.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
I was watching an episode of Star Trek tng last night and one of the crew asked the holodeck to create a table. The computer said there were over 3000 tables in the database and to be more specific. Those kinds of options could change mmorpgs forever.
Or maybe one game so encompassing that it literally has something for everyone.
Something so deep that its almost a game within a game.
Something that could become sacred.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Does it mean leveling up? Or does it mean there is a solo path to every reward in the game? Or to nearly every one?
What happens when you hit max level as a soloer? What must there be for the soloer then to "advance?"
The answers to these questions may shed some light on whether we are talking about being able to solo sometimes, or reducing the game to an ez-mode experience where everyone is THE hero who can meet any challenge alone.
I don't believe in the current themepark model and typical end game.
I believe in shallow vertical progression. You gain abilities and power through class quest, items, gear and etc.
Difficulty divides the content since there are no levels. For example you have easy, medium hard, group required, large group required rated content. Choices to play how you like. I believe the best items should be found through multiple ways like questing, combat, crafting, world event and etc
If you want to raid or do group challenges then you should be able to do it with people who want to. Raid gear should be unique to the raid but not the only place to get the best gear.
But having difficulty rated content will give you more difficulty than the average MMORPG which has small bits of raid content being hard.
If you want to raid or do group challenges then you should be able to do it with people who want to. Raid gear should be unique to the raid but not the only place to get the best gear.
That's what I thought you meant. Suffice to say we are very much in disagreement.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
If you want to raid or do group challenges then you should be able to do it with people who want to. Raid gear should be unique to the raid but not the only place to get the best gear.
That's what I thought you meant. Suffice to say we are very much in disagreement.
I understand and disagreeing is fine. Vast majority of player do not want to raid. Numbers show it.
If you enjoy your playstyle why is more than having unique items neccessary? Is it feel elite over rest of the players to have the best gear?
If you want to raid or do group challenges then you should be able to do it with people who want to. Raid gear should be unique to the raid but not the only place to get the best gear.
That's what I thought you meant. Suffice to say we are very much in disagreement.
I understand and disagreeing is fine. Vast majority of player do not want to raid. Numbers show it.
If you enjoy your playstyle why is more than having unique items neccessary? Is it feel elite over rest of the players to have the best gear?
My play style varies from year to year and from game to game. In some games I am a casual player. In others a PvPer (something I usually but not always suck at). In still others a raider (of varying degrees of seriousness).
But in all the games I have played, I have enjoyed the idea that there are major adventures with epic rewards awaiting me and my fellow explorers, should I ever choose to pursue them and succeed. A dragon sitting on a pile of gold and ancient weapons. Show me a fantasy game that lacks that and I will show you a game I am not playing, because that game has no soul. The whole time I played EQ I never fought the Sleeper, but I thrilled knowing it was there (for maybe someday). As Robert Browning once said, "a man's reach should exceed his grasp or what's a Heaven for?"
No, I am not "elite." But I am not a noob either. I don't expect to have the finest items in exchange for my solo efforts. That's what single player RPGs are for. The thirst to acquire raid level gear without raid level effort is a big part of why so many games today have been dumbed down and made unchallenging.
Your claim that almost everyone agrees with you about raiding completely begs the question. And I point out that EQ has kept going for 20 years and 25 expansions, being played mainly for the last 15 years by raiders.
But again, if you want to play games where soloers get raid equivalent gear, by all means enjoy that game. I won't be there.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
As for the original question, I've always thought that the MMORPG genre should focus on more than just combat and c rafting. A game that introduces anything beyond these two systems will be seen as innovative. Politics, religion, social gatherings, communal magics, etc. -- each of these could be be abstracted and developed as major game systems. Success as a game may require something else entirely, though.
I'd like to see an MMORPG that actually focused on the RP aspect. Something that defines what RP is for that game, recognizes players engaging in 'good' RP, and provides in-game rewards. A game with a solid RP aspect should be able to reward the player not only for defeating a mob, but also when they are simply hanging around in a tavern. Break the 'fighting = success' mentality of the RP genre.
Yes.. to build a world, that players can become a part of, a world they can grow in and into, not just a killing field, where everything comes down to DPS.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I don't understand why people prefer AI Challenging while you can just hire other people to play as bosses , mobs and NPCs .
I prefer a world run by human instead of AI .
Humans have biases which can be good or bad.
And can lead to favorable treatment for their friends. Another point is that humans playing MOBs can't be there 24/7.
I would love to see players be able to become content themselves by turning into Liches or Ghosts, transforming themselves or via gods, into Gargoyles or other MOB types, Lycanthropy, or whatever. Forced to leave the world of man in many cases, making their homes or dens in Dungeons or Ruins, etc. And able to move if needed. Perhaps with a perma-death end result in some manner (such as the wooden stake in a Vampire). Not as a replacement to MOBs, but as additional game play.
I know this isn't what you asked for, but Im old school and prefer the holy trinity tank and spank of EQ1. I don't play action mmos like ESO, I dont play JRPG MMOs, and I dont play MMOs with kid graphics.
If you want to raid or do group challenges then you should be able to do it with people who want to. Raid gear should be unique to the raid but not the only place to get the best gear.
That's what I thought you meant. Suffice to say we are very much in disagreement.
I understand and disagreeing is fine. Vast majority of player do not want to raid. Numbers show it.
If you enjoy your playstyle why is more than having unique items neccessary? Is it feel elite over rest of the players to have the best gear?
My play style varies from year to year and from game to game. In some games I am a casual player. In others a PvPer (something I usually but not always suck at). In still others a raider (of varying degrees of seriousness).
But in all the games I have played, I have enjoyed the idea that there are major adventures with epic rewards awaiting me and my fellow explorers, should I ever choose to pursue them and succeed. A dragon sitting on a pile of gold and ancient weapons. Show me a fantasy game that lacks that and I will show you a game I am not playing, because that game has no soul. The whole time I played EQ I never fought the Sleeper, but I thrilled knowing it was there (for maybe someday). As Robert Browning once said, "a man's reach should exceed his grasp or what's a Heaven for?"
No, I am not "elite." But I am not a noob either. I don't expect to have the finest items in exchange for my solo efforts. That's what single player RPGs are for. The thirst to acquire raid level gear without raid level effort is a big part of why so many games today have been dumbed down and made unchallenging.
Your claim that almost everyone agrees with you about raiding completely begs the question. And I point out that EQ has kept going for 20 years and 25 expansions, being played mainly for the last 15 years by raiders.
But again, if you want to play games where soloers get raid equivalent gear, by all means enjoy that game. I won't be there.
Not all legendary items come from deep dungeons in fiction. Especially not repeating the same "epic" over and over you watched on YouTube before you try. In fact many legends begin with lost or forgotten items in the most unexpected places.
But there is no rule or law stating the best gear must be from raiding.
Why can't a master crafter forge some legendary? Where does the legendary gear come from in the first place?
Why can't I get a former heroes egendary sword as a reward for a quest?
Why can't I explore and find something long forgotten?
Nothing states games have to be easy mode because it's solo. Dark Souls can be played solo but it is skill based. Most group content isn't really hard. It's more tedious to organize or it's just a numbers game.
I don't understand why people prefer AI Challenging while you can just hire other people to play as bosses , mobs and NPCs .
I prefer a world run by human instead of AI .
Humans have biases which can be good or bad.
And can lead to favorable treatment for their friends. Another point is that humans playing MOBs can't be there 24/7.
I would love to see players be able to become content themselves by turning into Liches or Ghosts, transforming themselves or via gods, into Gargoyles or other MOB types, Lycanthropy, or whatever. Forced to leave the world of man in many cases, making their homes or dens in Dungeons or Ruins, etc. And able to move if needed. Perhaps with a perma-death end result in some manner (such as the wooden stake in a Vampire). Not as a replacement to MOBs, but as additional game play.
I had an idea similar. I would like to see players as monsters. Recruit minions and run dungeons.
It is a great concept for solo games, since you affect the world for yourself. In MMOs it is dangerous since you affect the world for everyone else - current and future.
Say your guild/team/whatever kills some major boss that is a one time event on the entire server. You get the thrill/joy -- but any player that comes after you loses that. Its great for you, not so great for everyone else.
There is a difference between areas that require grouping then a game that forces all or most to group up to advance. People want a choice to solo. It was only popular in one game EQ.
I should be able to kill a wolf or rabbit by myself. That feels forced and unnatural. I refuse to believe my hero can't beat any equally level guys in the world. It sucks and metrics show most players don't want it.
To be fair - you could level solo as any class in EQ. It just was usually not the most efficient way to level. Efficiency aside, most people opted to group because they wanted the social aspect -- it is a multiplayer game after all.
People like to point to WoW as the example of solo game play. But the solo game play only existed in vanilla wow until you hit max level at which point you essentially had to group (raid) to progress -- technically you could pvp solo.
That said, I totally get it. I'm busier now than I was when I played EQ or even WoW. I don't have the time to invest in looking for groups for an hour (or more) hoping to get a bit of exp. Its also why I generally cannot play MMOs anymore
So to answer the main question; what can be done to radically change how MMORPGs are played?
In my mind, it would have to be some meaningful way to balance the hardcore players with infinite amount of time on their hands, and the hardcore mindset players with jobs/families and limited time on their hands.
No clue how you do it.
You look at a game from another genre though; I can go play league of legends and still have fun, improve my play, etc even if I am not playing at a pro level.
Then I look back at raiding in WoW - recently-ish during legion. Mythic raiding was a chore; it was easily a part time job requiring 20+ hours a week to keep up and maintain your roster spot. But, it was incredibly rewarding when your guild managed to pull their act together and drop a boss for the first time after days/weeks of failed efforts. Heroic raiding, on the other hand, was a cake walk and completely unfulfilling. So it made playing the game an all or nothing -- for me at least.
So I'd love a game that let me get the sense of accomplishment of beating a mythic boss -- while somehow allowing me to log online on an irregular basis when I have time, as opposed to every Tu/Th/Fri from hours x to y -- with no sick days or vacation time .
I would love to see players be able to become content themselves by turning into Liches or Ghosts, transforming themselves or via gods, into Gargoyles or other MOB types, Lycanthropy, or whatever. Forced to leave the world of man in many cases, making their homes or dens in Dungeons or Ruins, etc. And able to move if needed. Perhaps with a perma-death end result in some manner (such as the wooden stake in a Vampire). Not as a replacement to MOBs, but as additional game play.
I had an idea similar. I would like to see players as monsters. Recruit minions and run dungeons.
Awesome idea. Imagine if you were fighting the undead. You die and become the undead. Now you have to try and kill the living until you earn enough spirit to be reborn and continue the war on the ever-increasing undead horde. Kind of reminds me of Left for Dead where you could play as the boss zombies.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Nothing delivers serious character progression like SWAMPS & TOMBS!
"Begin life as an amoeba, battling for survival and identity in a bottomless swamp, and rise through the ranks from fish to weird monkey to barbarian hero until finally you reign supreme from your eerie dungeon hideaway as an ultra powerful Lich Lord who still boasts their own teeth."
Here's 5 Cool Features You'll LOVE!
* Thoroughly immersive gameplay — especially the SWAMP part!
* Engaging quests that last for several millennia!
* Age-specific audio and visual effects reflect your transformation from jelly-like fartspeak to gasping cackles of MWAH HA HAAAA!
* Revolutionary GUILD system pitches shambling menagerie against shambling menagerie in a feast of barely organised chaos!
* The weird monkeys really are WAY WEIRD!
WHY LEVEL UP WHEN YOU CAN LEVEL FOREVER?
Stumpiness & Unbridled Misery Masquerading as VIRTUE
Need an AI-Free Elf Names Generator to bring your next elven character to life? Why ... course you do, you darn fool!
PvE needs to speed up. 20 years later it’s still one step beyond turn based. The pull a pack kill a pack system must be brought to modern times. It’s too boring for today’s gamers.
For example, if you attack a castle NPCs should respond in some coordination. Doors should close, murder holes used, pour boiling oil and etc. I hate how they all stand around while they're comrades are being killed.
For example, if you attack a castle NPCs should respond in some coordination. Doors should close, murder holes used, pour boiling oil and etc. I hate how they all stand around while they're comrades are being killed.
More intelligent players is much better option I think As for the NPCs - the problem is that in a MMO, you are not alone - maybe many people here forget that fact. So if you attack the NPC and other players attack it too, how the NPC should react? The simplest and most effective solution is to use scheduled actions, with some random timing that will simulate AI. If you use real AI - you will need a supercomputer. For challenging and intelligent conflict - well, there are other players. Amazing, but in the MMOs there are other people.
Ah sorry - read only the first part Well you can make one attack to trigger group defense, in fact that is implemented in many games - L2 too. It just makes the PvE too hard and the solo players hate it.
Not all content is meant to be solo'd and not all content is meant to be grouped. It's just bad design. The optics are terrible.
Comments
Human opponents are not so forgiving and there are many who will never lose or even put themselves in a position to, which is why most gamers hate playing against them.
Gamers often clamor for more challenging AI, but it can't be so challenging they can never be beaten, then players wont come.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
See in even a game like Anthem where you automatically dropped into groups or players added to your missions it's fine. That is fine CoOp. Even then you can solo.
In an MMORPG I am doing my own thing. It should be more than combat. You can require your player to visit a player repair shop or treatment from a doctor or any amount of non combat methods that feel natural.
I should be able to kill a wolf or rabbit by myself. That feels forced and unnatural. I refuse to believe my hero can't beat any equally level guys in the world. It sucks and metrics show most players don't want it.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Or maybe one game so encompassing that it literally has something for everyone.
Something so deep that its almost a game within a game.
Something that could become sacred.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
I believe in shallow vertical progression. You gain abilities and power through class quest, items, gear and etc.
Difficulty divides the content since there are no levels. For example you have easy, medium hard, group required, large group required rated content. Choices to play how you like. I believe the best items should be found through multiple ways like questing, combat, crafting, world event and etc
If you want to raid or do group challenges then you should be able to do it with people who want to. Raid gear should be unique to the raid but not the only place to get the best gear.
But having difficulty rated content will give you more difficulty than the average MMORPG which has small bits of raid content being hard.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
If you enjoy your playstyle why is more than having unique items neccessary? Is it feel elite over rest of the players to have the best gear?
But in all the games I have played, I have enjoyed the idea that there are major adventures with epic rewards awaiting me and my fellow explorers, should I ever choose to pursue them and succeed. A dragon sitting on a pile of gold and ancient weapons. Show me a fantasy game that lacks that and I will show you a game I am not playing, because that game has no soul. The whole time I played EQ I never fought the Sleeper, but I thrilled knowing it was there (for maybe someday). As Robert Browning once said, "a man's reach should exceed his grasp or what's a Heaven for?"
No, I am not "elite." But I am not a noob either. I don't expect to have the finest items in exchange for my solo efforts. That's what single player RPGs are for. The thirst to acquire raid level gear without raid level effort is a big part of why so many games today have been dumbed down and made unchallenging.
Your claim that almost everyone agrees with you about raiding completely begs the question. And I point out that EQ has kept going for 20 years and 25 expansions, being played mainly for the last 15 years by raiders.
But again, if you want to play games where soloers get raid equivalent gear, by all means enjoy that game. I won't be there.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Another point is that humans playing MOBs can't be there 24/7.
I would love to see players be able to become content themselves by turning into Liches or Ghosts, transforming themselves or via gods, into Gargoyles or other MOB types, Lycanthropy, or whatever. Forced to leave the world of man in many cases, making their homes or dens in Dungeons or Ruins, etc. And able to move if needed. Perhaps with a perma-death end result in some manner (such as the wooden stake in a Vampire).
Not as a replacement to MOBs, but as additional game play.
Once upon a time....
Joined 2004 - I can't believe I've been a MMORPG.com member for 20 years! Get off my lawn!
But there is no rule or law stating the best gear must be from raiding.
Why can't a master crafter forge some legendary? Where does the legendary gear come from in the first place?
Why can't I get a former heroes egendary sword as a reward for a quest?
Why can't I explore and find something long forgotten?
Nothing states games have to be easy mode because it's solo. Dark Souls can be played solo but it is skill based. Most group content isn't really hard. It's more tedious to organize or it's just a numbers game.
Say your guild/team/whatever kills some major boss that is a one time event on the entire server. You get the thrill/joy -- but any player that comes after you loses that. Its great for you, not so great for everyone else.
To be fair - you could level solo as any class in EQ. It just was usually not the most efficient way to level. Efficiency aside, most people opted to group because they wanted the social aspect -- it is a multiplayer game after all.
People like to point to WoW as the example of solo game play. But the solo game play only existed in vanilla wow until you hit max level at which point you essentially had to group (raid) to progress -- technically you could pvp solo.
That said, I totally get it. I'm busier now than I was when I played EQ or even WoW. I don't have the time to invest in looking for groups for an hour (or more) hoping to get a bit of exp. Its also why I generally cannot play MMOs anymore
So to answer the main question; what can be done to radically change how MMORPGs are played?
In my mind, it would have to be some meaningful way to balance the hardcore players with infinite amount of time on their hands, and the hardcore mindset players with jobs/families and limited time on their hands.
No clue how you do it.
You look at a game from another genre though; I can go play league of legends and still have fun, improve my play, etc even if I am not playing at a pro level.
Then I look back at raiding in WoW - recently-ish during legion. Mythic raiding was a chore; it was easily a part time job requiring 20+ hours a week to keep up and maintain your roster spot. But, it was incredibly rewarding when your guild managed to pull their act together and drop a boss for the first time after days/weeks of failed efforts. Heroic raiding, on the other hand, was a cake walk and completely unfulfilling. So it made playing the game an all or nothing -- for me at least.
So I'd love a game that let me get the sense of accomplishment of beating a mythic boss -- while somehow allowing me to log online on an irregular basis when I have time, as opposed to every Tu/Th/Fri from hours x to y -- with no sick days or vacation time
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
"Begin life as an amoeba, battling for survival and identity in a bottomless swamp, and rise through the ranks from fish to weird monkey to barbarian hero until finally you reign supreme from your eerie dungeon hideaway as an ultra powerful Lich Lord who still boasts their own teeth."
* Thoroughly immersive gameplay — especially the SWAMP part!
* Engaging quests that last for several millennia!
* Age-specific audio and visual effects reflect your transformation from jelly-like fartspeak to gasping cackles of MWAH HA HAAAA!
* Revolutionary GUILD system pitches shambling menagerie against shambling menagerie in a feast of barely organised chaos!
* The weird monkeys really are WAY WEIRD!
For example, if you attack a castle NPCs should respond in some coordination. Doors should close, murder holes used, pour boiling oil and etc. I hate how they all stand around while they're comrades are being killed.
The next big evolution in gaming is in sophisticated and entertaining AI
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee