I'm sure the idea of everyone rushing a Target to kill it is as old as mankind itself. Therefore I'm sure it was very first tactic that was ever thought of in PvP.
Are you being deliberately obtuse? My criticism of the usage of the word was very specifically PvE prior to 2002. So why even talk about PvP?
Also at want point, both in time and in numbers, does 'everyone' constitute a zerg? Is three players a zerg? Six? Or some much higher number?
Whether the word was d ifferent or not is irrelevant. The action is the same I'm sure it was done in UO.
You're right so I did say PVP. The practice is still as old as mankind. Rushing of mobs not a new tactic. It is the most basic tactic. Yes it was done in early EQ. I can't say in raids because I didn't raid in EQ. But it was done throughout leveling. I'm sure it was done in early UO . ImI sure it was done and whatever group PVE game was around since the dawn of time
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
I'm sure the idea of everyone rushing a Target to kill it is as old as mankind itself. Therefore I'm sure it was very first tactic that was ever thought of in PvP.
Are you being deliberately obtuse? My criticism of the usage of the word was very specifically PvE prior to 2002. So why even talk about PvP?
Also at want point, both in time and in numbers, does 'everyone' constitute a zerg? Is three players a zerg? Six? Or some much higher number?
Dude, you questioned it's usage in UO, which was a PvP game.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I'm sure the idea of everyone rushing a Target to kill it is as old as mankind itself. Therefore I'm sure it was very first tactic that was ever thought of in PvP.
Are you being deliberately obtuse? My criticism of the usage of the word was very specifically PvE prior to 2002. So why even talk about PvP?
Also at want point, both in time and in numbers, does 'everyone' constitute a zerg? Is three players a zerg? Six? Or some much higher number?
Dude, you questioned it's usage in UO, which was a PvP game.
I did question the usage of the word in UO beta. So was it?
I'm sure the idea of everyone rushing a Target to kill it is as old as mankind itself. Therefore I'm sure it was very first tactic that was ever thought of in PvP.
Are you being deliberately obtuse? My criticism of the usage of the word was very specifically PvE prior to 2002. So why even talk about PvP?
Also at want point, both in time and in numbers, does 'everyone' constitute a zerg? Is three players a zerg? Six? Or some much higher number?
Dude, you questioned it's usage in UO, which was a PvP game.
I did question the usage of the word in UO beta. So was it?
Different name or not it happens in every open world pvp game. Now what in the living shit does this have to do with op?
Whether the word was d ifferent or not is irrelevant. The action is the same I'm sure it was done in UO.
You're right so I did say PVP. The practice is still as old as mankind. Rushing of mobs not a new tactic. It is the most basic tactic. Yes it was done in early EQ. I can't say in raids because I didn't raid in EQ. But it was done throughout leveling. I'm sure it was done in early UO . ImI sure it was done and whatever group PVE game was around since the dawn of time
But it was the usage of the word that I was criticizing. So did people actually "zerg" in Everquest?? Because I did play Everquest in the 1990's and I did raid early on. And no we didn't do anything that I could identify as a 'zerg', and I am absolutely certain that the word itself was never used by Everquest players at that time.
I'm sure the idea of everyone rushing a Target to kill it is as old as mankind itself. Therefore I'm sure it was very first tactic that was ever thought of in PvP.
Are you being deliberately obtuse? My criticism of the usage of the word was very specifically PvE prior to 2002. So why even talk about PvP?
Also at want point, both in time and in numbers, does 'everyone' constitute a zerg? Is three players a zerg? Six? Or some much higher number?
Dude, you questioned it's usage in UO, which was a PvP game.
I did question the usage of the word in UO beta. So was it?
So why the sudden "OH no, it needs to be a PvE game" when you started off talking about a PvP game.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
This thread got weird, lol. Zerg were my favorite starcraft race. I like insectoid races. No politics just instinct. Similar to undead and machine races.
One of the things that made mmorpgs great to me probably had to do with my age. I was 22 when EQ came out. The internet was new. The more I disect it, the more I realize I will never get that feeling back. I wonder if the young people are able to experience mmorpgs the way I did back then. The games seem much different now. Players values and goals are different. People seem more shy and indifferent to anything that doesnt directly affect them. I guess that ties into the topic because I feel like the companies have been trying to radically change the way mmorpgs are played for years now, and I’m not really convinced it has been for the better. But maybe I’m just old and cranky.
Post edited by Palebane on
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
anyway .. back on topic, as it stands, you can't make some new great MMO, if you cling to old ideas. Want to make something great, you need a new idea to make it happen.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
This thread got weird, lol. Zerg were my favorite starcraft race. I like insectoid races. No politics just instinct. Similar to undead and machine races.
One of the things that made mmorpgs great to me probably had to do with my age. I was like 16 or 17 when EQ came out. The internet was new. The more I disect it, the more I realize I will never get that feeling back. I wonder if the young people are able to experience mmorpgs the way I did back then. The games seem much different now. Players values and goals are different. People seem more shy and indifferent to anything that doesnt directly affect them. I guess that ties into the topic because I feel like the companies have been trying to radically change the way mmorpgs are played for years now, and I’m not really convinced it has been for the better. But maybe I’m just old and cranky.
Yes, they have been changing the way players play. They added zones, instances, quests that tell you exactly what to do, and controlled group sizes. Honestly, this used to be a common topic debated for it's benefits for the game producers vs. player socialization (which was being controlled too, as a result).
anyway .. back on topic, as it stands, you can't make some new great MMO, if you cling to old ideas. Want to make something great, you need a new idea to make it happen.
True. Not only that, but you need hidden "controls" on player interactions. Maybe "soft" controls would be a better term.
This topic of zergs is pretty important. Players will, as VengeSunsoar says, group into very large guilds and simply zerg content. That's just not fun, it's too easy . That's not the sort of game play I want, or to be surrounded by it either.
There are "soft" ways to control that. Rather than controlled group sizes in instanced content, open it up and then add spawn to compensate. Also, why do players always have to win? How about Boss Mobs that try to escape overwhelming odds? And tricks and a set of strategies to do so. Traps, illusions, defensive set-ups, AOE spells, etc., things that a NPC can use but players can recognize and try to block.
The recurring theme that strikes me as most likely to be a real game-changer is game development emphasis that allows both players and NPCs to be much more realistic and have more persistent, less scripted effects on the game world.
I dont think that actually changes ANYTHING.
In fact I think even if you manage to do that, the novelty will wear off after eight hours of playing. Just like good graphics does.
If you want to successfully run a game longterm, you really need a solid game. There is no substitution for that.
anyway .. back on topic, as it stands, you can't make some new great MMO, if you cling to old ideas. Want to make something great, you need a new idea to make it happen.
True. Not only that, but you need hidden "controls" on player interactions. Maybe "soft" controls would be a better term.
This topic of zergs is pretty important. Players will, as VengeSunsoar says, group into very large guilds and simply zerg content. That's just not fun, it's too easy . That's not the sort of game play I want, or to be surrounded by it either.
There are "soft" ways to control that. Rather than controlled group sizes in instanced content, open it up and then add spawn to compensate. Also, why do players always have to win? How about Boss Mobs that try to escape overwhelming odds? And tricks and a set of strategies to do so. Traps, illusions, defensive set-ups, AOE spells, etc., things that a NPC can use but players can recognize and try to block.
To me, the tactic of 'zerging' requires the ability to resurrect the fallen to quickly get them back in the fight. Simply rushing a mob with numbers seems more like a 'bum rush', bring overwhelming numbers as quickly as possible and worry about the consequences afterwards.
In the case of a Rez and Return tactic, one of the easiest ways to discourage this tactic is to make resurrection a much more elaborate process. Retrieve the body, possibly difficult when a mob swallows a body (or part). Reassemble the body. Heal the body's wounds. Return the soul to the body. Recover. Resurrection and recovery is far too simple in every MMORPG. Rez sticks, resurrection that returns a significant portion of health/mana, etc., make the rez and return tactic possible.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
anyway .. back on topic, as it stands, you can't make some new great MMO, if you cling to old ideas. Want to make something great, you need a new idea to make it happen.
True. Not only that, but you need hidden "controls" on player interactions. Maybe "soft" controls would be a better term.
This topic of zergs is pretty important. Players will, as VengeSunsoar says, group into very large guilds and simply zerg content. That's just not fun, it's too easy . That's not the sort of game play I want, or to be surrounded by it either.
There are "soft" ways to control that. Rather than controlled group sizes in instanced content, open it up and then add spawn to compensate. Also, why do players always have to win? How about Boss Mobs that try to escape overwhelming odds? And tricks and a set of strategies to do so. Traps, illusions, defensive set-ups, AOE spells, etc., things that a NPC can use but players can recognize and try to block.
To me, the tactic of 'zerging' requires the ability to resurrect the fallen to quickly get them back in the fight. Simply rushing a mob with numbers seems more like a 'bum rush', bring overwhelming numbers as quickly as possible and worry about the consequences afterwards.
In the case of a Rez and Return tactic, one of the easiest ways to discourage this tactic is to make resurrection a much more elaborate process. Retrieve the body, possibly difficult when a mob swallows a body (or part). Reassemble the body. Heal the body's wounds. Return the soul to the body. Recover. Resurrection and recovery is far too simple in every MMORPG. Rez sticks, resurrection that returns a significant portion of health/mana, etc., make the rez and return tactic possible.
Ew, but making it tedious will drive players away. Making it specialized in some way could work, just not a long drawn out process.
anyway .. back on topic, as it stands, you can't make some new great MMO, if you cling to old ideas. Want to make something great, you need a new idea to make it happen.
True. Not only that, but you need hidden "controls" on player interactions. Maybe "soft" controls would be a better term.
This topic of zergs is pretty important. Players will, as VengeSunsoar says, group into very large guilds and simply zerg content. That's just not fun, it's too easy . That's not the sort of game play I want, or to be surrounded by it either.
There are "soft" ways to control that. Rather than controlled group sizes in instanced content, open it up and then add spawn to compensate. Also, why do players always have to win? How about Boss Mobs that try to escape overwhelming odds? And tricks and a set of strategies to do so. Traps, illusions, defensive set-ups, AOE spells, etc., things that a NPC can use but players can recognize and try to block.
Well Zerg situations I think GW2 did a great job with this, with their World Bosses, where the Boss would scale by the volume of players fighting it, it built a massive event where players could feel a part of this huge under taking, really had that old School EQ vibe to it.
So GW2 did some great things for social aspects of the Game.
Instance content, as far as this goes, no one has held a candle to what Dungeons and Dragons Online has put out, they have been by far the best dungeon makers ever. I encourage you, if you want to feel a unique style of dungeon running, check them out. Their dungeons scale by both Difficulty Setting and Party Size, so it's quite a trip to feel the difference.
To give an example of a really great MMO, is Trove. They really set a new standard with destructible worlds, and what could be put into an MMO, my Static didn't like the voxel graphics and total dependency on RNG, so, we all kinda left, but, overall, it was a great building block game.
Now if Trove had a better, more in control gear system, chance are, I would have been playing a lot longer than I did, the Everything-RNG was a super killer for me.
A lot of times, a new idea does not need to be super complex, it just needs to flow well with the players.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
anyway .. back on topic, as it stands, you can't make some new great MMO, if you cling to old ideas. Want to make something great, you need a new idea to make it happen.
True. Not only that, but you need hidden "controls" on player interactions. Maybe "soft" controls would be a better term.
This topic of zergs is pretty important. Players will, as VengeSunsoar says, group into very large guilds and simply zerg content. That's just not fun, it's too easy . That's not the sort of game play I want, or to be surrounded by it either.
There are "soft" ways to control that. Rather than controlled group sizes in instanced content, open it up and then add spawn to compensate. Also, why do players always have to win? How about Boss Mobs that try to escape overwhelming odds? And tricks and a set of strategies to do so. Traps, illusions, defensive set-ups, AOE spells, etc., things that a NPC can use but players can recognize and try to block.
To me, the tactic of 'zerging' requires the ability to resurrect the fallen to quickly get them back in the fight. Simply rushing a mob with numbers seems more like a 'bum rush', bring overwhelming numbers as quickly as possible and worry about the consequences afterwards.
In the case of a Rez and Return tactic, one of the easiest ways to discourage this tactic is to make resurrection a much more elaborate process. Retrieve the body, possibly difficult when a mob swallows a body (or part). Reassemble the body. Heal the body's wounds. Return the soul to the body. Recover. Resurrection and recovery is far too simple in every MMORPG. Rez sticks, resurrection that returns a significant portion of health/mana, etc., make the rez and return tactic possible.
Ew, but making it tedious will drive players away. Making it specialized in some way could work, just not a long drawn out process.
While I agree that it would be tedious, resurrection as a whole seems pretty gamey to me. I would prefer a simulation rather than a game mechanism. Abstracting something like returning to life as a single step process seems overly simplistic. A resurrection *should* be something that happens rarely, not 10 times in the course of a single raid, it *should* be a major type magic, not something that happens everyday. A reasonable abstraction in a single operation could probably require a 10 minute casting time for a basic minimal rez, adding another 2 minutes per +10% recovery.
And tediousness would definitely counter the Rez and Return variation of the Zerg tactic, which is what I responded to.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
anyway .. back on topic, as it stands, you can't make some new great MMO, if you cling to old ideas. Want to make something great, you need a new idea to make it happen.
True. Not only that, but you need hidden "controls" on player interactions. Maybe "soft" controls would be a better term.
This topic of zergs is pretty important. Players will, as VengeSunsoar says, group into very large guilds and simply zerg content. That's just not fun, it's too easy . That's not the sort of game play I want, or to be surrounded by it either.
There are "soft" ways to control that. Rather than controlled group sizes in instanced content, open it up and then add spawn to compensate. Also, why do players always have to win? How about Boss Mobs that try to escape overwhelming odds? And tricks and a set of strategies to do so. Traps, illusions, defensive set-ups, AOE spells, etc., things that a NPC can use but players can recognize and try to block.
To me, the tactic of 'zerging' requires the ability to resurrect the fallen to quickly get them back in the fight. Simply rushing a mob with numbers seems more like a 'bum rush', bring overwhelming numbers as quickly as possible and worry about the consequences afterwards.
In the case of a Rez and Return tactic, one of the easiest ways to discourage this tactic is to make resurrection a much more elaborate process. Retrieve the body, possibly difficult when a mob swallows a body (or part). Reassemble the body. Heal the body's wounds. Return the soul to the body. Recover. Resurrection and recovery is far too simple in every MMORPG. Rez sticks, resurrection that returns a significant portion of health/mana, etc., make the rez and return tactic possible.
Ew, but making it tedious will drive players away. Making it specialized in some way could work, just not a long drawn out process.
While I agree that it would be tedious, resurrection as a whole seems pretty gamey to me. I would prefer a simulation rather than a game mechanism. Abstracting something like returning to life as a single step process seems overly simplistic. A resurrection *should* be something that happens rarely, not 10 times in the course of a single raid, it *should* be a major type magic, not something that happens everyday. A reasonable abstraction in a single operation could probably require a 10 minute casting time for a basic minimal rez, adding another 2 minutes per +10% recovery.
And tediousness would definitely counter the Rez and Return variation of the Zerg tactic, which is what I responded to.
Something can be rare without being tedious. Tedium causes frustration. Then of course we are full circle because if resurrection is rare then that makes getting back together tedious as well.
The problem comes when a group of friends has a limited amount of tome to play together and it is ruined because of a death and that player can’t make it back to finish the gaming session with their friends before time is up.
If it’s specifically raids then it could be that resurrection can’t occur inside of specific areas. Make returning to that location difficult, but give other areas for time restricted sessions that are not affected. Same could go for pvp. If it’s a challenge to get back to the siege then zerging becomes less of a problem. But again, there should be ways for people to have fun without worrying about all that.
ChildoftheShadows@ Tedium can be something you just don't like doing. So in my opinion it's too subjective to use it to underpin an objective argument, unless you just by chance4 happen to have an opinion most other gamers do. That's all.
ChildoftheShadows@ Tedium can be something you just don't like doing. So in my opinion it's too subjective to use it to underpin an objective argument, unless you just by chance4 happen to have an opinion most other gamers do. That's all.
This is why many rpgs stick to xp and gold loss as death penalties, because everyone seems to enjoy racking those things up. Time and money are where it starts to sting, imo. But you are right about teduim, and if the penalty for death was to do a bunch of stuff you dont like, you would either limit yourself by trying so hard not to die or just quit when you do, lol.
I like the idea of a resurrection process. They could make it like the second half of the game, returning from the dead or reincarnated. But you would run the risk of some players not liking one aspect or the other.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
anyway .. back on topic, as it stands, you can't make some new great MMO, if you cling to old ideas. Want to make something great, you need a new idea to make it happen.
True. Not only that, but you need hidden "controls" on player interactions. Maybe "soft" controls would be a better term.
This topic of zergs is pretty important. Players will, as VengeSunsoar says, group into very large guilds and simply zerg content. That's just not fun, it's too easy . That's not the sort of game play I want, or to be surrounded by it either.
There are "soft" ways to control that. Rather than controlled group sizes in instanced content, open it up and then add spawn to compensate. Also, why do players always have to win? How about Boss Mobs that try to escape overwhelming odds? And tricks and a set of strategies to do so. Traps, illusions, defensive set-ups, AOE spells, etc., things that a NPC can use but players can recognize and try to block.
To me, the tactic of 'zerging' requires the ability to resurrect the fallen to quickly get them back in the fight. Simply rushing a mob with numbers seems more like a 'bum rush', bring overwhelming numbers as quickly as possible and worry about the consequences afterwards.
In the case of a Rez and Return tactic, one of the easiest ways to discourage this tactic is to make resurrection a much more elaborate process. Retrieve the body, possibly difficult when a mob swallows a body (or part). Reassemble the body. Heal the body's wounds. Return the soul to the body. Recover. Resurrection and recovery is far too simple in every MMORPG. Rez sticks, resurrection that returns a significant portion of health/mana, etc., make the rez and return tactic possible.
Ew, but making it tedious will drive players away. Making it specialized in some way could work, just not a long drawn out process.
While I agree that it would be tedious, resurrection as a whole seems pretty gamey to me. I would prefer a simulation rather than a game mechanism. Abstracting something like returning to life as a single step process seems overly simplistic. A resurrection *should* be something that happens rarely, not 10 times in the course of a single raid, it *should* be a major type magic, not something that happens everyday. A reasonable abstraction in a single operation could probably require a 10 minute casting time for a basic minimal rez, adding another 2 minutes per +10% recovery.
And tediousness would definitely counter the Rez and Return variation of the Zerg tactic, which is what I responded to.
There are games that already do this. This feature has not revitalized the genre
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
ChildoftheShadows@ Tedium can be something you just don't like doing. So in my opinion it's too subjective to use it to underpin an objective argument, unless you just by chance4 happen to have an opinion most other gamers do. That's all.
If you want to create a game that caters to your liking then you are not going to revitalize an entire genre. If you want to revitalize the genre, as the OP requests, then you have to look at majority of players and not let your own opinions get in the way.
Tedious as a word is not near as subjective as you make it, especially when you look at majority.
anyway .. back on topic, as it stands, you can't make some new great MMO, if you cling to old ideas. Want to make something great, you need a new idea to make it happen.
True. Not only that, but you need hidden "controls" on player interactions. Maybe "soft" controls would be a better term.
This topic of zergs is pretty important. Players will, as VengeSunsoar says, group into very large guilds and simply zerg content. That's just not fun, it's too easy . That's not the sort of game play I want, or to be surrounded by it either.
There are "soft" ways to control that. Rather than controlled group sizes in instanced content, open it up and then add spawn to compensate. Also, why do players always have to win? How about Boss Mobs that try to escape overwhelming odds? And tricks and a set of strategies to do so. Traps, illusions, defensive set-ups, AOE spells, etc., things that a NPC can use but players can recognize and try to block.
To me, the tactic of 'zerging' requires the ability to resurrect the fallen to quickly get them back in the fight. Simply rushing a mob with numbers seems more like a 'bum rush', bring overwhelming numbers as quickly as possible and worry about the consequences afterwards.
In the case of a Rez and Return tactic, one of the easiest ways to discourage this tactic is to make resurrection a much more elaborate process. Retrieve the body, possibly difficult when a mob swallows a body (or part). Reassemble the body. Heal the body's wounds. Return the soul to the body. Recover. Resurrection and recovery is far too simple in every MMORPG. Rez sticks, resurrection that returns a significant portion of health/mana, etc., make the rez and return tactic possible.
Ew, but making it tedious will drive players away. Making it specialized in some way could work, just not a long drawn out process.
While I agree that it would be tedious, resurrection as a whole seems pretty gamey to me. I would prefer a simulation rather than a game mechanism. Abstracting something like returning to life as a single step process seems overly simplistic. A resurrection *should* be something that happens rarely, not 10 times in the course of a single raid, it *should* be a major type magic, not something that happens everyday. A reasonable abstraction in a single operation could probably require a 10 minute casting time for a basic minimal rez, adding another 2 minutes per +10% recovery.
And tediousness would definitely counter the Rez and Return variation of the Zerg tactic, which is what I responded to.
There are games that already do this. This feature has not revitalized the genre
Name one of these MMORPGs that do this, please, because they are outside of my personal gaming experience.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
anyway .. back on topic, as it stands, you can't make some new great MMO, if you cling to old ideas. Want to make something great, you need a new idea to make it happen.
True. Not only that, but you need hidden "controls" on player interactions. Maybe "soft" controls would be a better term.
This topic of zergs is pretty important. Players will, as VengeSunsoar says, group into very large guilds and simply zerg content. That's just not fun, it's too easy . That's not the sort of game play I want, or to be surrounded by it either.
There are "soft" ways to control that. Rather than controlled group sizes in instanced content, open it up and then add spawn to compensate. Also, why do players always have to win? How about Boss Mobs that try to escape overwhelming odds? And tricks and a set of strategies to do so. Traps, illusions, defensive set-ups, AOE spells, etc., things that a NPC can use but players can recognize and try to block.
To me, the tactic of 'zerging' requires the ability to resurrect the fallen to quickly get them back in the fight. Simply rushing a mob with numbers seems more like a 'bum rush', bring overwhelming numbers as quickly as possible and worry about the consequences afterwards.
In the case of a Rez and Return tactic, one of the easiest ways to discourage this tactic is to make resurrection a much more elaborate process. Retrieve the body, possibly difficult when a mob swallows a body (or part). Reassemble the body. Heal the body's wounds. Return the soul to the body. Recover. Resurrection and recovery is far too simple in every MMORPG. Rez sticks, resurrection that returns a significant portion of health/mana, etc., make the rez and return tactic possible.
Ew, but making it tedious will drive players away. Making it specialized in some way could work, just not a long drawn out process.
While I agree that it would be tedious, resurrection as a whole seems pretty gamey to me. I would prefer a simulation rather than a game mechanism. Abstracting something like returning to life as a single step process seems overly simplistic. A resurrection *should* be something that happens rarely, not 10 times in the course of a single raid, it *should* be a major type magic, not something that happens everyday. A reasonable abstraction in a single operation could probably require a 10 minute casting time for a basic minimal rez, adding another 2 minutes per +10% recovery.
And tediousness would definitely counter the Rez and Return variation of the Zerg tactic, which is what I responded to.
There are games that already do this. This feature has not revitalized the genre
Name one of these MMORPGs that do this, please, because they are outside of my personal gaming experience.
anyway .. back on topic, as it stands, you can't make some new great MMO, if you cling to old ideas. Want to make something great, you need a new idea to make it happen.
True. Not only that, but you need hidden "controls" on player interactions. Maybe "soft" controls would be a better term.
This topic of zergs is pretty important. Players will, as VengeSunsoar says, group into very large guilds and simply zerg content. That's just not fun, it's too easy . That's not the sort of game play I want, or to be surrounded by it either.
There are "soft" ways to control that. Rather than controlled group sizes in instanced content, open it up and then add spawn to compensate. Also, why do players always have to win? How about Boss Mobs that try to escape overwhelming odds? And tricks and a set of strategies to do so. Traps, illusions, defensive set-ups, AOE spells, etc., things that a NPC can use but players can recognize and try to block.
To me, the tactic of 'zerging' requires the ability to resurrect the fallen to quickly get them back in the fight. Simply rushing a mob with numbers seems more like a 'bum rush', bring overwhelming numbers as quickly as possible and worry about the consequences afterwards.
In the case of a Rez and Return tactic, one of the easiest ways to discourage this tactic is to make resurrection a much more elaborate process. Retrieve the body, possibly difficult when a mob swallows a body (or part). Reassemble the body. Heal the body's wounds. Return the soul to the body. Recover. Resurrection and recovery is far too simple in every MMORPG. Rez sticks, resurrection that returns a significant portion of health/mana, etc., make the rez and return tactic possible.
Ew, but making it tedious will drive players away. Making it specialized in some way could work, just not a long drawn out process.
While I agree that it would be tedious, resurrection as a whole seems pretty gamey to me. I would prefer a simulation rather than a game mechanism. Abstracting something like returning to life as a single step process seems overly simplistic. A resurrection *should* be something that happens rarely, not 10 times in the course of a single raid, it *should* be a major type magic, not something that happens everyday. A reasonable abstraction in a single operation could probably require a 10 minute casting time for a basic minimal rez, adding another 2 minutes per +10% recovery.
And tediousness would definitely counter the Rez and Return variation of the Zerg tactic, which is what I responded to.
There are games that already do this. This feature has not revitalized the genre
Name one of these MMORPGs that do this, please, because they are outside of my personal gaming experience.
Everquest is the one I’m most familiar with.
Everquest has always had an immediate respawn-after-death. It also had a movable bind point (albeit with some zone and class restrictions). Combining the two, it is relatively easy for some classes to Rez and Return. I've been on far too many PoP raids that leveraged that Rez and Return tactic to the raid's benefit -- for continuing the fight, and for personal flagging.
It was sometime after PoP that EQ1 introduced a hover in zone 'limbo' after a death, and that was specifically added to counter long return times. (For OOW or GOD raids, I *think*).
So, EQ1 does not qualify, and never has. It does nothing to deter a Rez-and-Return style Zerg.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
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My criticism of the usage of the word was very specifically PvE prior to 2002. So why even talk about PvP?
Also at want point, both in time and in numbers, does 'everyone' constitute a zerg? Is three players a zerg? Six? Or some much higher number?
You're right so I did say PVP. The practice is still as old as mankind. Rushing of mobs not a new tactic. It is the most basic tactic. Yes it was done in early EQ. I can't say in raids because I didn't raid in EQ. But it was done throughout leveling. I'm sure it was done in early UO . ImI sure it was done and whatever group PVE game was around since the dawn of time
One of the things that made mmorpgs great to me probably had to do with my age. I was 22 when EQ came out. The internet was new. The more I disect it, the more I realize I will never get that feeling back. I wonder if the young people are able to experience mmorpgs the way I did back then. The games seem much different now. Players values and goals are different. People seem more shy and indifferent to anything that doesnt directly affect them. I guess that ties into the topic because I feel like the companies have been trying to radically change the way mmorpgs are played for years now, and I’m not really convinced it has been for the better. But maybe I’m just old and cranky.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Honestly, this used to be a common topic debated for it's benefits for the game producers vs. player socialization (which was being controlled too, as a result).
Once upon a time....
This topic of zergs is pretty important. Players will, as VengeSunsoar says, group into very large guilds and simply zerg content. That's just not fun, it's too easy .
That's not the sort of game play I want, or to be surrounded by it either.
There are "soft" ways to control that. Rather than controlled group sizes in instanced content, open it up and then add spawn to compensate. Also, why do players always have to win? How about Boss Mobs that try to escape overwhelming odds? And tricks and a set of strategies to do so. Traps, illusions, defensive set-ups, AOE spells, etc., things that a NPC can use but players can recognize and try to block.
Once upon a time....
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
So GW2 did some great things for social aspects of the Game.
Instance content, as far as this goes, no one has held a candle to what Dungeons and Dragons Online has put out, they have been by far the best dungeon makers ever. I encourage you, if you want to feel a unique style of dungeon running, check them out. Their dungeons scale by both Difficulty Setting and Party Size, so it's quite a trip to feel the difference.
To give an example of a really great MMO, is Trove. They really set a new standard with destructible worlds, and what could be put into an MMO, my Static didn't like the voxel graphics and total dependency on RNG, so, we all kinda left, but, overall, it was a great building block game.
Now if Trove had a better, more in control gear system, chance are, I would have been playing a lot longer than I did, the Everything-RNG was a super killer for me.
A lot of times, a new idea does not need to be super complex, it just needs to flow well with the players.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
The problem comes when a group of friends has a limited amount of tome to play together and it is ruined because of a death and that player can’t make it back to finish the gaming session with their friends before time is up.
If it’s specifically raids then it could be that resurrection can’t occur inside of specific areas. Make returning to that location difficult, but give other areas for time restricted sessions that are not affected. Same could go for pvp. If it’s a challenge to get back to the siege then zerging becomes less of a problem. But again, there should be ways for people to have fun without worrying about all that.
I like the idea of a resurrection process. They could make it like the second half of the game, returning from the dead or reincarnated. But you would run the risk of some players not liking one aspect or the other.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Tedious as a word is not near as subjective as you make it, especially when you look at majority.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.