Robert Jordan books pissed me off. Each book was worse than the one prior. I remember reading 100's of pages of shit with no movement of the story and it kept getting worse and worse. I didn't even bother reading the last 2 books because I had it with his bullshit.
Only books worth reading these days are academic books.
Apparently it greatly surprised Mark Jacobs, he did demos of the new engine during the Kickstarter and said he could deliver the full game in two years.
Coming up now on seven years of development this April and still much of their time this year was spent testing and tweaking engine performance.
Armchair developers certainly aren't surprised, but are regularly shouted down by some being told they know nothing about actual game development.
Lulz... well at least I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I think the only surprise is that people still gaslight and virtue signal this sort of unethical behavior given the context and scope of the discussions we've had around it.
I know what the individual words mean but have no idea what you mean. Spell it out for me..?
"the developers, who are the experts, have mislead their users with ridiculously unrealistic timelines."
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I'm losing interest too, but I think that's a change in my tastes more than anything the game/development is doing. If the game was out now and great I still would probably be losing interest. I realize there's other reasons to lose interest (misleading time estimates, lack of progress, no real engaging footage of gameplay for years).
Stopped caring when they start focusing on the CUBE system.
They wasted a good 2 years on it, something that is totally optional and not part of the core game.
That proved to me they were totally out of their depth.
No.
They promised block based building (EDIT: no destruction promised in KS that I could find) in the Kickstarter, this wasn't optional, it is part of the core game. There's a difference between "not part of the core game" and "part of the core game TEKK3N doesn't care about."
I think the only surprise is that people still gaslight and virtue signal this sort of unethical behavior given the context and scope of the discussions we've had around it.
I know what the individual words mean but have no idea what you mean. Spell it out for me..?
No one is surprised because we've already discussed the cause of the delays and that the developers, who are the experts, have mislead their users with ridiculously unrealistic timelines. It is only surprising that people would pretend not to know the developers have intentionally mislead users and then try to blame the users for not knowing they were being duped.
Gaslighting is when people try and dismiss bad behavior by claiming the victim(s) are crazy and imagining something that isn't there or "normal" people would see as unimportant.
I hope that is a little clearer.
Hehe I know what gaslighting is, what was unclear to me was the nouns/proper nouns in your comment, who was doing misleading/gaslighting/virtue signaling and in what context.
At this point I'm willing to agree the devs have intentionally misled people with the dates, and being lawyerly with words so that they TECHNICALLY didn't say something is the textbook definition of misleading.
That being said, like I've always said, I get that they're afraid of losing lots of backers if they're honest and say "we have no fucking clue how long this'll take cause the shit we promised is completely fucking bonkers, but we're working on it and making actual tangible progress, just slow as molasses." That still leaves it as an act of misleading by the devs (and for sure also gaslighting is going on by some fans).
That said, many people's complaints ARE NOT about how honest the devs are (gonna reiterate in case it's not clear: I agree with the stance that the devs haven't been honest about reasonable timelines).
Most complaints I see boil down to "scope creep" (wrong), "vaporware" (almost certainly wrong), "just making the engine to sell it off, a.k.a. vaporware" (see above), and "game will never release" (technically this is likely, but it's also likely for any game that's in development and hasn't released yet, so while it's not wrong , it's next to fucking useless of a comment to make unless your goal a) is to either emotionally prepare yourself for the worst by convincing yourself and others that the worst will happen or b) delighting in the low-level sadism that comes with needling people who are hoping for an uncertain thing, and if it's b), fuck yourself. [not @you Torval, I know you're not doing this, this is just at anyone who IS doing this.])
Apparently it greatly surprised Mark Jacobs, he did demos of the new engine during the Kickstarter and said he could deliver the full game in two years.
Coming up now on seven years of development this April and still much of their time this year was spent testing and tweaking engine performance.
Armchair developers certainly aren't surprised, but are regularly shouted down by some being told they know nothing about actual game development.
Lulz... well at least I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express.
Where's this shouting down happening? point it out for me? I haven't really seen it on here.
You know how you point out that Gdemami just lol's posts he has no rebuttal to...?
Ha, yes, I think a bunch of people have noticed that. When he can't form a logical response to a post, he just hits it with a LOL. Which is most of the time.
You know how you point out that Gdemami just lol's posts he has no rebuttal to...?
Ha, yes, I think a bunch of people have noticed that. When he can't form a logical response to a post, he just hits it with a LOL. Which is most of the time.
To spell it out more clearly: Kyleran's saying that ppl criticizing CU get shouted down on the MMORPG forums. I said I don't see this happening and asked for signs/proof of it. No reply, just a couple of lol's. I was drawing a parallel between Gdemami's behaviour that Kyleran ridicules, and him apparently doing the same thing.
Edit: But I'm sure Kyleran will have a snappy, direct reply full of the proof I'm asking for, that definitely doesn't dodge my question; just a matter of time before he shares it with us.
Edit 2: and I'm absolutely positive he won't point to 'someone disagreeing with him/CU critics and giving a counterpoint' as proof of "being shouted down" because he's FAR smarter than to believe that counts as being shouted down, and knows we're smarter than that too.
You know how you point out that Gdemami just lol's posts he has no rebuttal to...?
Ha, yes, I think a bunch of people have noticed that. When he can't form a logical response to a post, he just hits it with a LOL. Which is most of the time.
To spell it out more clearly: Kyleran's saying that ppl criticizing CU get shouted down on the MMORPG forums. I said I don't see this happening and asked for signs/proof of it. No reply, just a couple of lol's. I was drawing a parallel between Gdemami's behaviour that Kyleran ridicules, and him apparently doing the same thing.
Edit: But I'm sure Kyleran will have a snappy, direct reply full of the proof I'm asking for, that definitely doesn't dodge my question; just a matter of time before he shares it with us.
Edit 2: and I'm absolutely positive he won't point to 'someone disagreeing with him/CU critics and giving a counterpoint' as proof of "being shouted down" because he's FAR smarter than to believe that counts as being shouted down, and knows we're smarter than that too.
I honestly took your comment as a joke which was why I LoLed...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
You know how you point out that Gdemami just lol's posts he has no rebuttal to...?
Ha, yes, I think a bunch of people have noticed that. When he can't form a logical response to a post, he just hits it with a LOL. Which is most of the time.
To spell it out more clearly: Kyleran's saying that ppl criticizing CU get shouted down on the MMORPG forums. I said I don't see this happening and asked for signs/proof of it. No reply, just a couple of lol's. I was drawing a parallel between Gdemami's behaviour that Kyleran ridicules, and him apparently doing the same thing.
Edit: But I'm sure Kyleran will have a snappy, direct reply full of the proof I'm asking for, that definitely doesn't dodge my question; just a matter of time before he shares it with us.
Edit 2: and I'm absolutely positive he won't point to 'someone disagreeing with him/CU critics and giving a counterpoint' as proof of "being shouted down" because he's FAR smarter than to believe that counts as being shouted down, and knows we're smarter than that too.
I honestly took your comment as a joke which was why I LoLed...
Sometimes @gdemami 's response approach is sound and proves useful.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
You know how you point out that Gdemami just lol's posts he has no rebuttal to...?
Ha, yes, I think a bunch of people have noticed that. When he can't form a logical response to a post, he just hits it with a LOL. Which is most of the time.
To spell it out more clearly: Kyleran's saying that ppl criticizing CU get shouted down on the MMORPG forums. I said I don't see this happening and asked for signs/proof of it. No reply, just a couple of lol's. I was drawing a parallel between Gdemami's behaviour that Kyleran ridicules, and him apparently doing the same thing.
Edit: But I'm sure Kyleran will have a snappy, direct reply full of the proof I'm asking for, that definitely doesn't dodge my question; just a matter of time before he shares it with us.
Edit 2: and I'm absolutely positive he won't point to 'someone disagreeing with him/CU critics and giving a counterpoint' as proof of "being shouted down" because he's FAR smarter than to believe that counts as being shouted down, and knows we're smarter than that too.
I honestly took your comment as a joke which was why I LoLed...
Sometimes @gdemami 's response approach is sound and proves useful.
Yes i would have. The goal is still the same, to bring us a type of mmorpg that we dont have anymore. we been asking for a "DAoC 2" years before it even appeared as a project (i know its not DAoC but you get what i mean ). How many times do we wish for something that is actually coming true ? Not often, in CU's case, although its very long to appear, we'll get it ! (and if you're considering the numbers of hours worked on it per employee, its probably taking a decent/ok amount of time, but i understand that from a backer's point of view, its still the total amount of time waited that count the most).
Building the engine, making everything from scratch takes a lot of time, Most of the coding involves experimenting, rather than just repeating what is known.
Yeah, we're up to 6 years in waiting, but if you're being honest about the amount of work needed to get it done, versus the size of the studio, everyone should understand.
Not be happy about the waiting, but at least recognise the fact that its normal.
Bowbow (kob hunter) Infecto (kob cave shammy) and Thurka (troll warrior) on Merlin/Midgard DAoC Thurka on WAR
Yes i would have. The goal is still the same, to bring us a type of mmorpg that we dont have anymore. we been asking for a "DAoC 2" years before it even appeared as a project (i know its not DAoC but you get what i mean ). How many times do we wish for something that is actually coming true ? Not often, in CU's case, although its very long to appear, we'll get it ! (and if you're considering the numbers of hours worked on it per employee, its probably taking a decent/ok amount of time, but i understand that from a backer's point of view, its still the total amount of time waited that count the most).
Building the engine, making everything from scratch takes a lot of time, Most of the coding involves experimenting, rather than just repeating what is known.
Yeah, we're up to 6 years in waiting, but if you're being honest about the amount of work needed to get it done, versus the size of the studio, everyone should understand.
Not be happy about the waiting, but at least recognise the fact that its normal.
I mean, it is normal but I'm still worried about whether they can pull everything together into a coherent whole. It may be too early to see (i.e. too early to conclude that they can't do it well), but the longer we wait without being able to see how the pieces feel/fit together, more worried I get...
Yes i would have. The goal is still the same, to bring us a type of mmorpg that we dont have anymore. we been asking for a "DAoC 2" years before it even appeared as a project (i know its not DAoC but you get what i mean ). How many times do we wish for something that is actually coming true ? Not often, in CU's case, although its very long to appear, we'll get it ! (and if you're considering the numbers of hours worked on it per employee, its probably taking a decent/ok amount of time, but i understand that from a backer's point of view, its still the total amount of time waited that count the most).
Building the engine, making everything from scratch takes a lot of time, Most of the coding involves experimenting, rather than just repeating what is known.
Yeah, we're up to 6 years in waiting, but if you're being honest about the amount of work needed to get it done, versus the size of the studio, everyone should understand.
Not be happy about the waiting, but at least recognise the fact that its normal.
I mean, it is normal but I'm still worried about whether they can pull everything together into a coherent whole. It may be too early to see (i.e. too early to conclude that they can't do it well), but the longer we wait without being able to see how the pieces feel/fit together, more worried I get...
The longer it takes, the greater the chance of failure to achieve their goals as funding / investor patience runs thin.
I'm thinking we will see a release in the "next 18 months" but compromises will become apparent in the product which we'll be told will be resolved in future updates.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The answer is way simpler for me: ... I haven't backed it yet because I do my research
But I will be backing it soon enough because it looks like the biggest hurdles are finally falling out of the way.
Every other week I've caught their streams live and they DO answer the important technical questions that every other Developer out there just plain won't go into. We just saw video of the Physics coming together. They personally assured me that their Skills U.I. system has no more technical hurdles in front of it. All of the BIG ISSUES that always blindside other Devs have already been flattened out miles ahead of where we are right now.
The Only problem we really need to worry about this year(2020) is them likely getting the RVR balance wrong because as someone who played FireFall religiously, I can tell you that the same guy who designed the PvP Zone & balance in that game is the lead Dev on that aspect for Camelot... and bless his beard, he just couldn't pull it off alone in that now-dead game. RIP, I really miss it. Most people blamed Raptor cheese but those of us who were there from Beta 0.7 knew it wasn't nearly that simple.
We've seen way too many promising skill-based Multiplayer PVP games launch and then fall on their faces immediately because there just wasn't anything there to KEEP the less skilled players engaged and willing to keep trying. And then it just devolves into a "too many Wolves, too few sheep" problem until there's only 9 people online at any given point.... it's a long list too, DirtyBomb, Battleborn, Lawbreakers, Conan, Ashes, and then Planetside-Arena just this month. I hear the PvP community in BDO has even fallen apart. I don't know where people are PvP'ing these days, but it sure doesn't seem like it's in MMORPGs anymore and until there is some SERIOUS THOUGHT given to exactly why MMORPG PvP always fails like this while total shit like League of Legends just keeps getting bigger, I worry that the very capable Devs that Citystate has still won't just magically be capable enough to make this a break-out success right out of the gate. ...which means it may never get the kind of viral surge it needs to sustain a lasting Pop
The answer is way simpler for me: ... I haven't backed it yet because I do my research
But I will be backing it soon enough because it looks like the biggest hurdles are finally falling out of the way.
Every other week I've caught their streams live and they DO answer the important technical questions that every other Developer out there just plain won't go into. We just saw video of the Physics coming together. They personally assured me that their Skills U.I. system has no more technical hurdles in front of it. All of the BIG ISSUES that always blindside other Devs have already been flattened out miles ahead of where we are right now.
The Only problem we really need to worry about this year(2020) is them likely getting the RVR balance wrong because as someone who played FireFall religiously, I can tell you that the same guy who designed the PvP Zone & balance in that game is the lead Dev on that aspect for Camelot... and bless his beard, he just couldn't pull it off alone in that now-dead game. RIP, I really miss it. Most people blamed Raptor cheese but those of us who were there from Beta 0.7 knew it wasn't nearly that simple.
We've seen way too many promising skill-based Multiplayer PVP games launch and then fall on their faces immediately because there just wasn't anything there to KEEP the less skilled players engaged and willing to keep trying. And then it just devolves into a "too many Wolves, too few sheep" problem until there's only 9 people online at any given point.... it's a long list too, DirtyBomb, Battleborn, Lawbreakers, Conan, Ashes, and then Planetside-Arena just this month. I hear the PvP community in BDO has even fallen apart. I don't know where people are PvP'ing these days, but it sure doesn't seem like it's in MMORPGs anymore and until there is some SERIOUS THOUGHT given to exactly why MMORPG PvP always fails like this while total shit like League of Legends just keeps getting bigger, I worry that the very capable Devs that Citystate has still won't just magically be capable enough to make this a break-out success right out of the gate. ...which means it may never get the kind of viral surge it needs to sustain a lasting Pop
I've gotta say, it's refreshing to see legitimate concerns/criticisms of Camelot Unchained, these are all things worth worrying about, and are not at all solved problems.
One thing I've found comforting is that CSE isn't shy about agreeing with you about PvP balance out-of-the-gate being a big hurdle and how hard that will be, so at least they're not bullshitting us or themselves about that terrifying werewolf of a problem, and that it has to bee overcome without any silver bullet (though they haven't connected that problem with the population falloff problem, and that omission seems practical, cause pointing to the fact that not enough balance can cause the population to evaporate might scare people off from backing the game or trying it out in the first place).
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
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mmorpg junkie since 1999
All the rest went the way of the dodo.
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Coming up now on seven years of development this April and still much of their time this year was spent testing and tweaking engine performance.
Armchair developers certainly aren't surprised, but are regularly shouted down by some being told they know nothing about actual game development.
Lulz... well at least I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Hehe I know what gaslighting is, what was unclear to me was the nouns/proper nouns in your comment, who was doing misleading/gaslighting/virtue signaling and in what context.
Where's this shouting down happening? point it out for me? I haven't really seen it on here.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
But keep lol'ing me without actually addressing my point, it's clearly worked wonders for Gdemami's credibility.
How many times do we wish for something that is actually coming true ? Not often, in CU's case, although its very long to appear, we'll get it ! (and if you're considering the numbers of hours worked on it per employee, its probably taking a decent/ok amount of time, but i understand that from a backer's point of view, its still the total amount of time waited that count the most).
Building the engine, making everything from scratch takes a lot of time, Most of the coding involves experimenting, rather than just repeating what is known.
Yeah, we're up to 6 years in waiting, but if you're being honest about the amount of work needed to get it done, versus the size of the studio, everyone should understand.
Not be happy about the waiting, but at least recognise the fact that its normal.
Bowbow (kob hunter) Infecto (kob cave shammy) and Thurka (troll warrior) on Merlin/Midgard DAoC
Thurka on WAR
I mean, it is normal but I'm still worried about whether they can pull everything together into a coherent whole. It may be too early to see (i.e. too early to conclude that they can't do it well), but the longer we wait without being able to see how the pieces feel/fit together, more worried I get...
I'm thinking we will see a release in the "next 18 months" but compromises will become apparent in the product which we'll be told will be resolved in future updates.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
But I will be backing it soon enough because it looks like the biggest hurdles are finally falling out of the way.
Every other week I've caught their streams live and they DO answer the important technical questions that every other Developer out there just plain won't go into. We just saw video of the Physics coming together. They personally assured me that their Skills U.I. system has no more technical hurdles in front of it. All of the BIG ISSUES that always blindside other Devs have already been flattened out miles ahead of where we are right now.
We've seen way too many promising skill-based Multiplayer PVP games launch and then fall on their faces immediately because there just wasn't anything there to KEEP the less skilled players engaged and willing to keep trying. And then it just devolves into a "too many Wolves, too few sheep" problem until there's only 9 people online at any given point.... it's a long list too, DirtyBomb, Battleborn, Lawbreakers, Conan, Ashes, and then Planetside-Arena just this month. I hear the PvP community in BDO has even fallen apart. I don't know where people are PvP'ing these days, but it sure doesn't seem like it's in MMORPGs anymore and until there is some SERIOUS THOUGHT given to exactly why MMORPG PvP always fails like this while total shit like League of Legends just keeps getting bigger, I worry that the very capable Devs that Citystate has still won't just magically be capable enough to make this a break-out success right out of the gate. ...which means it may never get the kind of viral surge it needs to sustain a lasting Pop
The Kickstarter for CU was in 1981 so it's pretty reasonable not to remember that far back. xD