Forced PVP doesn't exist. You have to buy the game, create an account, log on, create a character and then step outside of guard zones. You've already given permission 5 times before you can get whacked. Read the box. The OP seems to be doing that. Good.
Nobody ever talks about forced PvE. What about the times the players who want to be PvPing are forced to interact with NPCs, level skills, buy gear and all that rot? Maybe they should start talking about the game in terms that conjure up images of abuse?
I may be an odd duck here but I enjoy being a PvE person in a world with open full loot PvP. I'd like to see the game developers get more creative on how to mix those two a little better but I think it can be done.
If you dont want any PvE, there are literally dozens of competitive multiplayer games.
Most shooters have progression unlocks of new roles/equipment/champs. MOBAs focus on PvP while retaining the minimum PvE possible to include RPG elements.
If there's no forced PvP, it follows easily there's no such thing as forced PvE, either.
If AoC actually releases in this lifetime, then I'll try it. If it doesn't prove to be fun then so be it. Who knows - perhaps the corruption system will work to thin out griefers. I don't mind a nonconsensual 1-on-1 but the reflexes no longer exist to survive the 3-on-1 or 5-on-1 encounters. That reminds me of solo farming dungeons in UO and encountering the guild known as the "Lag Reduction Squad". 5 kids with ISDN against one player on dial-up ... not pretty. I'll keep an open mind lest I be labeled a Jaded Old Fart.
I think perhaps the issue in your examples isn't your lack of skill, rather the "x"-on-1 part.
Gotta play games like this with builds which are excellent at stealth or evasion for solo and expect to group up for mutual support.
Better to never find yourself in a fair fight, try to ensure the odds are more in your favor.
No idea if Ashes will permit such play styles but I survived 10 years of EVE, 3 years on DAOC's red server with such tactics and had a good time.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
One thing I would like to see which no game has offered is a FFA PVP server or world where players could copy their characters from normal RVR worlds over to, fully geared and leveled up, which would better balance the starting playing field.
Not judging... but isn't that pretty much what their Ashes Apocalypse Battle Arena game was supposed to be? I mean, if you take all character progression (horizontal, vertical, gear...) out of your MMORPG then you really have a Battle Arena type game. Then it just becomes a matter of persistence vs time definite matches.
Not really the same. In ESO you can hit level 50, CP160 rather quickly and still have years of content to play through including obtaining better gear, skill points and CP abilities.
I would prefer to spread the PVP out around the world, much as the red servers on DAOC without asking players to serve as helpless gank bait until they can grind up to max level first.
Just gives people a chance at a more level playing field before jumping into the fray.
Cyrodil is a bit limited and boring to me in terms of progression content.
Again, perhaps I am missing something... but if you have maxed your progression horizontally, vertically and gear... then why would you be out in the world doing anything? Run a dungeon to get... gear you do not need? Farm resources to craft... gear you do not need? Fight a boss to get experience you do not need?
Folks were out and about on Mordred and Andred because they were trying to improve their characters.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
PVE players need to realize that PVP is nothing more than fighting additional mobs that don't have limited aggro ranges... behave erratically... and more often than not, work together in groups.
PVPers seek out adventure just like PVErs do. The content is no more gated for them than it is for you. If you play like a wounded animal, don't expect nature to be kind. Head out with your friends with players on the look out for potential attacks around every corner. If you can learn not to stand in fire... you can learn not to be a victim.
It's not much different than learning a raid strategy... only the strategy is ever evolving. An MMO without PVP is a single player game... because that is exactly how it gets played... solo. An MMO with PVP is a multi-player game... because you can't have PVP without opponents.
Change the way you play games instead of being the square peg trying to force itself into the round hole. All the content you want and more is awaiting you. YOU only need to learn to play the game the right way.
this is a MMO. Just about every PvP MMO/ FFA fest turns into some small scale 1v1, 5v5 or 1v3 type junk. Never really any regular large scale PvP 40+ vs 40+ in these PvP MMOs. Guild Wars 2's WvW has more consistent large scale PvP.
I play MMOs for large scale multiplayer gameplay. Not small 1v1 nonsense that I can get from a Moba.
The PvE part of a game like this is not ridiculous. It is the pretense for the PvP. One of the greatest PvP MMORPGs of all time, Lineage 1, was all about PvPvE. Players did PvE for xp leveling, gear, and because it added an enjoyable content element. Much of the PvE was challenging so encouraged cooperation. The PvP was also challenging so encouraged cooperation. People grouped together for safety. It was a nice hybrid mixture.
That said, I feel like I've lost interest in MMO PvP. Progression based PvP is just bleh to me. If I'm going to play a competitive game I want to play something with a level playing field where the player skill matters most, not how long I've grinded.
A progression-less PvP system may be a death-knell for any game. Imagine the number of lifeless wonders that would quit immediately when a rank casual showed up and beat them. That, and the difference between a progression-less FPS and an MMORPG would totally evaporate.
Good thoughts, though. Competition and RPG just never went together in my mind.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
But you need a way to manage it. A way to keep things from falling into Anarchy. A way to make players accountable for their actions.
An RPG justice system, where the maximum penalty is Banishment into Oblivion Forever.
Muhaha
Or banished to a pugatory area for a set time, wherein npcs gank your naked body and beasts tear you to shreads until you drop defeated and have to respawn, then they camp your respawn hehe!
But you need a way to manage it. A way to keep things from falling into Anarchy. A way to make players accountable for their actions.
An RPG justice system, where the maximum penalty is Banishment into Oblivion Forever.
Muhaha
Or banished to a pugatory area for a set time, wherein npcs gank your naked body and beasts tear you to shreads until you drop defeated and have to respawn, then they camp your respawn hehe!
Oh yes and then you get T-bagged continually too.
You should be able to leave a poop stain on them that last for days.
But you need a way to manage it. A way to keep things from falling into Anarchy. A way to make players accountable for their actions.
An RPG justice system, where the maximum penalty is Banishment into Oblivion Forever.
Muhaha
Or banished to a pugatory area for a set time, wherein npcs gank your naked body and beasts tear you to shreads until you drop defeated and have to respawn, then they camp your respawn hehe!
Oh yes and then you get T-bagged continually too.
You should be able to leave a poop stain on them that last for days.
Speaking of which, in ESO PvP I mentioned that we should be allowed to have ourselves or mounts straddle especially obnoxious dead players then dump a load.
Man I swear pve nerds ruined the genre. Crying to remove pvp because they're bad, meanwhile asking for new, creative fancy AI that can kill them lmao.
Why? Because mobs don't teabag you when you die. So damn sensitive, so easily offended, want to make make believe in a fantasy game. Wanting pretend in their pretend...
I understand on paper it's both PvP and PvE. I understand with the node system, the rewards for good PvP is more PvE content and more territory.
BUT heres how it will play out (real time) : Ashes is really built for PvP players. But EVERYONE will play it simply because its new and EVERYONE is starving for a new mmorpg. The PvE players will continuously get their hopes and dreams crushed with forced PvP.
Given some time the PvE players will move on and away from the game. This will make it even stronger for the PvP player, making it 100% PvP....... I give the PvE players 30 days.
This game will be a text book example of what sounds good on paper is not how it will play out !
I will never understand what goes through the mind of people who make forced pvp a thing and open world pvp is just cancer and aids combined
Age of connan was a perfect example of how not to set your pvp was trying to do quests as a level 15 player and this rando does circles ninja star style and tries to kill me and I ended up being forced to jump in a dam lake and wait for the dude to get bored and leave cuz I couldn't even target him cuz I had to click him but he moved to fast, even if they had a auto retaliate button which I never did cuz I flat out quit a month later its not worth the mental drain it takes to even keep up with something so mundane and boring as that game was lore wise
But meh who am I to disagree with game devs let cancer breed cancer idc
Any game with forced pvp or hell even open world pvp you see that on the title/features page turn the hell around and don't touch it, as you have said in the simplified short version I made in my mind, this is a dumpster fire waiting to happen but one I will enjoy seeing due to the fact it should deter other games from doing the same thing, a sacrificial lamb so to speak is good for the mmo genre as a whole
You know there were PVE only servers
I enjoyed PVP in AoC, later in the game's life they added a murder system (murder points that cause negative effects)... which I actually didn't like.
You can throw poo at each other all day long but in the end the market has spoken.
That doesn't mean someone cannot make a new PvP title work - but open world, full loot, significant vertical progression (1) isn't a winning formula.
Someone mentioned BDO at one point; however, in that game PvP doesn't start until level 50 and you can get there in 2hrs. (at least according to the videos I've seen on it). That isn't significant vertical progression, that is the most trivial progression I've ever encountered.
No need to argue this, keep pumping out those games and I'll continue to scratch my head as they fail.
NOTES ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1: Significant Vertical Progression: A long grind where a veteran player can end up being untouchable by a new player.
Albion is very successful. My main MMORPG right now.
I play 100% on my phone right now, and I do fine in PVP vs others on PC. I downloaded it this weekend for my gaming rig.. so I'm sure my play will be a lot better
You can throw poo at each other all day long but in the end the market has spoken.
That doesn't mean someone cannot make a new PvP title work - but open world, full loot, significant vertical progression (1) isn't a winning formula.
Someone mentioned BDO at one point; however, in that game PvP doesn't start until level 50 and you can get there in 2hrs. (at least according to the videos I've seen on it). That isn't significant vertical progression, that is the most trivial progression I've ever encountered.
No need to argue this, keep pumping out those games and I'll continue to scratch my head as they fail.
NOTES ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1: Significant Vertical Progression: A long grind where a veteran player can end up being untouchable by a new player.
Albion is very successful. My main MMORPG right now.
I play 100% on my phone right now, and I do fine in PVP vs others on PC. I downloaded it this weekend for my gaming rig.. so I'm sure my play will be a lot better
A game with green, yellow, and red zones does not qualify as Open World. If you don't want to PvP you can simply hide out in a green zone.
If you want examples of open world see Ultima Online (Felucca) or Mortal Online.
I think it does qualify, because tier 6 -8 content, resources, dungeons are in red zones. You are locked out of high level content if you avoid these zones.
Also, doesn't EVE have different pvp areas that are essentially PVE safe? I think we would consider EVE Full loot open world.
You can throw poo at each other all day long but in the end the market has spoken.
That doesn't mean someone cannot make a new PvP title work - but open world, full loot, significant vertical progression (1) isn't a winning formula.
Someone mentioned BDO at one point; however, in that game PvP doesn't start until level 50 and you can get there in 2hrs. (at least according to the videos I've seen on it). That isn't significant vertical progression, that is the most trivial progression I've ever encountered.
No need to argue this, keep pumping out those games and I'll continue to scratch my head as they fail.
NOTES ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1: Significant Vertical Progression: A long grind where a veteran player can end up being untouchable by a new player.
Albion is very successful. My main MMORPG right now.
I play 100% on my phone right now, and I do fine in PVP vs others on PC. I downloaded it this weekend for my gaming rig.. so I'm sure my play will be a lot better
A game with green, yellow, and red zones does not qualify as Open World. If you don't want to PvP you can simply hide out in a green zone.
If you want examples of open world see Ultima Online (Felucca) or Mortal Online.
I think it does qualify, because tier 6 -8 content, resources, dungeons are in red zones. You are locked out of high level content if you avoid these zones.
Also, doesn't EVE have different pvp areas that are essentially PVE safe? I think we would consider EVE Full loot open world.
I would say that it doesn't qualify. The new players have an area where they can gear up and become competitive. Over half the content is available with minimal (or no) risk.
It is okay if we have different definitions but open world in Albion is nothing like open world in Mortal Online or Ultima Online (Felucca) where you can even get whacked in town.
Well, we will disagree. However, the game demonstrates how a game can successfully incorporate PVE and Full loot PVP.
You can throw poo at each other all day long but in the end the market has spoken.
That doesn't mean someone cannot make a new PvP title work - but open world, full loot, significant vertical progression (1) isn't a winning formula.
Someone mentioned BDO at one point; however, in that game PvP doesn't start until level 50 and you can get there in 2hrs. (at least according to the videos I've seen on it). That isn't significant vertical progression, that is the most trivial progression I've ever encountered.
No need to argue this, keep pumping out those games and I'll continue to scratch my head as they fail.
NOTES ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1: Significant Vertical Progression: A long grind where a veteran player can end up being untouchable by a new player.
Albion is very successful. My main MMORPG right now.
I play 100% on my phone right now, and I do fine in PVP vs others on PC. I downloaded it this weekend for my gaming rig.. so I'm sure my play will be a lot better
A game with green, yellow, and red zones does not qualify as Open World. If you don't want to PvP you can simply hide out in a green zone.
If you want examples of open world see Ultima Online (Felucca) or Mortal Online.
I think it does qualify, because tier 6 -8 content, resources, dungeons are in red zones. You are locked out of high level content if you avoid these zones.
Also, doesn't EVE have different pvp areas that are essentially PVE safe? I think we would consider EVE Full loot open world.
I would say that it doesn't qualify. The new players have an area where they can gear up and become competitive. Over half the content is available with minimal (or no) risk.
It is okay if we have different definitions but open world in Albion is nothing like open world in Mortal Online or Ultima Online (Felucca) where you can even get whacked in town.
Well, we will disagree. However, the game demonstrates how a game can successfully incorporate PVE and Full loot PVP.
Their point hinges on significant vertical progression. Do you feel like Albion has a huge vertical? Are veteran players virtually untouchable by a player who has started to enter contested zones?
Albion isn't open world at all. It's game world is broken up in to many instanced zones with a max player cap per zone. All of those things are significant factors in its formula. It seems very popular to me. There is a large chunk of players who like that design combo.
Gear gaps between tier 4 and Tier 8 are pretty massive, same with skills. Yes, vets are virtually unbeatable unless they are terrible.
And plenty of games have zone caps... Age of Conan capped at about 100 players, before additional instances were created.
If you want to really progress in ablion, yes.... you will be in the red zones.
As Tervo said, the safe zones are basically new player starter areas... or gathering for low tier mats(which is terribly inefficient). Red zones are >60% of content.
By your logic EVE is not full loot open world... because it has safe zones. Yet, I think the avg gamer would label it a full loot open world.
You can throw poo at each other all day long but in the end the market has spoken.
That doesn't mean someone cannot make a new PvP title work - but open world, full loot, significant vertical progression (1) isn't a winning formula.
Someone mentioned BDO at one point; however, in that game PvP doesn't start until level 50 and you can get there in 2hrs. (at least according to the videos I've seen on it). That isn't significant vertical progression, that is the most trivial progression I've ever encountered.
No need to argue this, keep pumping out those games and I'll continue to scratch my head as they fail.
NOTES ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1: Significant Vertical Progression: A long grind where a veteran player can end up being untouchable by a new player.
Albion is very successful. My main MMORPG right now.
I play 100% on my phone right now, and I do fine in PVP vs others on PC. I downloaded it this weekend for my gaming rig.. so I'm sure my play will be a lot better
A game with green, yellow, and red zones does not qualify as Open World. If you don't want to PvP you can simply hide out in a green zone.
If you want examples of open world see Ultima Online (Felucca) or Mortal Online.
I think it does qualify, because tier 6 -8 content, resources, dungeons are in red zones. You are locked out of high level content if you avoid these zones.
Also, doesn't EVE have different pvp areas that are essentially PVE safe? I think we would consider EVE Full loot open world.
I would say that it doesn't qualify. The new players have an area where they can gear up and become competitive. Over half the content is available with minimal (or no) risk.
It is okay if we have different definitions but open world in Albion is nothing like open world in Mortal Online or Ultima Online (Felucca) where you can even get whacked in town.
Well, we will disagree. However, the game demonstrates how a game can successfully incorporate PVE and Full loot PVP.
Their point hinges on significant vertical progression. Do you feel like Albion has a huge vertical? Are veteran players virtually untouchable by a player who has started to enter contested zones?
Albion isn't open world at all. It's game world is broken up in to many instanced zones with a max player cap per zone. All of those things are significant factors in its formula. It seems very popular to me. There is a large chunk of players who like that design combo.
Not instanced. Zoned yes but each zone is singular and shared with the whole population. Cardinality is 1. Cap means noone enters, not that another instance is spawned. The only instanced content is arenas and expeditions and player housing/islands. Albion is as open world as EVE is. EVE has "the grid" too.
No, the only safe place in EVE is docked in station. I've been killed more often, lost more ISK in the so called "safer" high sec space than I ever did in null sec.
It's much easier to get complacent in high sec which inevitably leads to making careless mistakes which get you ganked.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
You can throw poo at each other all day long but in the end the market has spoken.
That doesn't mean someone cannot make a new PvP title work - but open world, full loot, significant vertical progression (1) isn't a winning formula.
Someone mentioned BDO at one point; however, in that game PvP doesn't start until level 50 and you can get there in 2hrs. (at least according to the videos I've seen on it). That isn't significant vertical progression, that is the most trivial progression I've ever encountered.
No need to argue this, keep pumping out those games and I'll continue to scratch my head as they fail.
NOTES ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1: Significant Vertical Progression: A long grind where a veteran player can end up being untouchable by a new player.
WoW PvP servers were just as popular as the PvE servers. Lineage 2 had the same PvP system that Ashes is implementing. Archage same thing. BDO may take you 2 hours now idk but when it came out it took several weeks. These are not failed games.
Theres no full loot in Ashes. You can only loot resources. If you kill someone with them not fighting back you get huge penalties so it wont happen that often.
Comments
Most shooters have progression unlocks of new roles/equipment/champs. MOBAs focus on PvP while retaining the minimum PvE possible to include RPG elements.
If there's no forced PvP, it follows easily there's no such thing as forced PvE, either.
Gotta play games like this with builds which are excellent at stealth or evasion for solo and expect to group up for mutual support.
Better to never find yourself in a fair fight, try to ensure the odds are more in your favor.
No idea if Ashes will permit such play styles but I survived 10 years of EVE, 3 years on DAOC's red server with such tactics and had a good time.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Folks were out and about on Mordred and Andred because they were trying to improve their characters.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
But you need a way to manage it. A way to keep things from falling into Anarchy. A way to make players accountable for their actions.
An RPG justice system, where the maximum penalty is Banishment into Oblivion Forever.
Muhaha
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
Just about every PvP MMO/ FFA fest turns into some small scale 1v1, 5v5 or 1v3 type junk. Never really any regular large scale PvP 40+ vs 40+ in these PvP MMOs. Guild Wars 2's WvW has more consistent large scale PvP.
I play MMOs for large scale multiplayer gameplay. Not small 1v1 nonsense that I can get from a Moba.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Speaking of which, in ESO PvP I mentioned that we should be allowed to have ourselves or mounts straddle especially obnoxious dead players then dump a load.
We've know this for years
Why? Because mobs don't teabag you when you die. So damn sensitive, so easily offended, want to make make believe in a fantasy game. Wanting pretend in their pretend...
I enjoyed PVP in AoC, later in the game's life they added a murder system (murder points that cause negative effects)... which I actually didn't like.
But New World failed miserably trying to do a half ass copy of Albion systems.
I play 100% on my phone right now, and I do fine in PVP vs others on PC. I downloaded it this weekend for my gaming rig.. so I'm sure my play will be a lot better
Also, doesn't EVE have different pvp areas that are essentially PVE safe? I think we would consider EVE Full loot open world.
And plenty of games have zone caps... Age of Conan capped at about 100 players, before additional instances were created.
If you want to really progress in ablion, yes.... you will be in the red zones.
As Tervo said, the safe zones are basically new player starter areas... or gathering for low tier mats(which is terribly inefficient). Red zones are >60% of content.
By your logic EVE is not full loot open world... because it has safe zones. Yet, I think the avg gamer would label it a full loot open world.
It's much easier to get complacent in high sec which inevitably leads to making careless mistakes which get you ganked.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Theres no full loot in Ashes. You can only loot resources. If you kill someone with them not fighting back you get huge penalties so it wont happen that often.