No evidence video games cause mass shootings

Mmochamp19

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

I think both sides of the gun control argument are in denial.  The reality is that the US population is mentally sick and saturated with weapons.  No amount of armed people or gun banning will stop anything.  Guns do make things easier but guns aren't going anywhere because of 2nd and ridiculous lobbying.  

The only choices are to arm up your self or just beat the odds and pray the bad gun culture changes.  Odds are you likely will never be shot.

you are wrong, I am so tired of the lobbying argument/NRA blah blah.  The vast majority of the people support the 2nd amendment in this country, and the NRA isnt in the pockets of anyone, they just happen to support people who agree with that side of the argument

If I was running for congress, I would gladly take money from the NRA cause I believe in the NRA and my grandfather was the San Diego chapter president, I come from a family of Gunsmiths, and everyone I know has them.

Now if Planned Parenthood, wanted to donate to me, I would say hell no, which is funny, how does planned parenthood have lobbyists, when they are a government funded program?

Alders

Divide and conquer. 

Slapshot1188

Kyleran said:

Couldnt be due to racist hate speech,  easier to purchase firearms than alcohol, or broken moral fiber, has to be violent entertainment for sure, video games being the worst of course.

Sometimes I think the Purge movies are ever closer to becoming a reality.

Why do we have to pick one reason?  I’d say to varying degree and certainly varying effect on each person all of those things CAN influence a person.  Desensitize them to violence.  Make the “others” seem something less than us.

Then do not forget that even the US Army was using video games to recruit and even train soldiers: https://www.playstation.com/en-us/games/americas-army-proving-grounds-ps4/

And let’s not forget that drone piloting is pretty much a video game at this point.

As I said elsewhere I do not think video games are THE reason, or even a top one, but I certainly have to acknowledge that it’s likely that they have some effect on some people.  And no I do not want them banned, but I think we should not be so quick to discard that they could have a negative effect on some people.

blamo2000

I have two somewhat hypocritical thoughts - I think the media use these shootings as a tool to further their narrative and agenda, which makes shooters extremely popular figures in infamy, which makes psychos see an easy path towards being super popular, somewhat meaningful, and infamous so it happens more.

Secondly, I think the more it happens the more blasé the reaction will become, which somewhat is setting in - which will hopefully lead to this being a less viable path to instant celebrity status and infamous.  

I really, really hate when people use tragedy as a reason to further an agenda.  That one animal that shot up the cowboy club was pretty specific about his reason for doing it (he wanted tougher gun control) - yet the media and narrative about why he did it is ignored and he is now considered a "right-wing terrorist."  Its just insanity.  It was either media matters or the SPLC that listed the shooting in Colorado by the two-ultra left-wing trans and homosexual kids as "right-wing terrorism."  Who wants to make a bet the shooters in CA (a left-wing kid) and Dayton (a left-wing kid) will be listed as "right-wing terrorism" too?

Anyone remember a couple years ago when the Newspaper place (I think in DC) was shot up?  It was accepted he did it specifically because he was disgruntled about an article the paper printed.  Someone on twitter showed a report where the FBI listed it as "right-wing terrorism."  This wasn't a journalist, and I don't know how to verify it, so I don't know if this is certain, but if it is that is just nuts.  

People forget we went through centuries where psycho kids had more access to guns and this was never a problem until recently.  The times may correlate with video games, but I doubt there is causation.  Honestly, unless you are fucking nuts yourself how could you know for certain?  When I play Doom or a one of the realistic pure FPS games that are said to cause mass shooters I just get bored and want to play an rpg, where I kill far more living beings in much shorter time probably, and I've yet to want to mass shoot up anything in real life.  

Viper482

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

I think both sides of the gun control argument are in denial.  The reality is that the US population is mentally sick and saturated with weapons.  No amount of armed people or gun banning will stop anything.  Guns do make things easier but guns aren't going anywhere because of 2nd and ridiculous lobbying.  

The only choices are to arm up your self or just beat the odds and pray the bad gun culture changes.  Odds are you likely will never be shot.

Edit: I was a bit harsh, but I do believe this is just ignorance talking. I disagree with most of it.

gervaise1

Ikisis said:

Kyleran said:

Couldnt be due to racist hate speech,  easier to purchase firearms than alcohol, or broken moral fiber, has to be violent entertainment for sure, video games being the worst of course.

Sometimes I think the Purge movies are ever closer to becoming a reality.

Judging by what you say here, you've never even tried to buy a gun. it is not easier then buying alcohol 

In Texas buying spirits (as distinct from beer) in banned in many counties.  In other counties it is available only in certain stores. 

gervaise1

Mmochamp19 said:

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

I think both sides of the gun control argument are in denial.  The reality is that the US population is mentally sick and saturated with weapons.  No amount of armed people or gun banning will stop anything.  Guns do make things easier but guns aren't going anywhere because of 2nd and ridiculous lobbying.  

The only choices are to arm up your self or just beat the odds and pray the bad gun culture changes.  Odds are you likely will never be shot.

you are wrong, I am so tired of the lobbying argument/NRA blah blah.  The vast majority of the people support the 2nd amendment in this country, and the NRA isnt in the pockets of anyone, they just happen to support people who agree with that side of the argument

If I was running for congress, I would gladly take money from the NRA cause I believe in the NRA and my grandfather was the San Diego chapter president, I come from a family of Gunsmiths, and everyone I know has them.

Now if Planned Parenthood, wanted to donate to me, I would say hell no, which is funny, how does planned parenthood have lobbyists, when they are a government funded program?

Guns today are not what they were 50 years ago let alone 200+ years ago. And in 10, 20 years they will probably be even more proficient in wiping out swathes of people in seconds - and potentially from a long, long way away.

And would your grandfather, I wonder, support Kim Jung-un's to have nuclear weapons?" Iran's? Israek's? Surely they have the same "right" to self protection and hunting? Do you? If not why not? Be warned though your argument could be repeated back at you.

At the very least its a question of degree. Which - and maybe I am wrong - you don't seem to acknowledge.

Slapshot1188

gervaise1 said:

Mmochamp19 said:

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

I think both sides of the gun control argument are in denial.  The reality is that the US population is mentally sick and saturated with weapons.  No amount of armed people or gun banning will stop anything.  Guns do make things easier but guns aren't going anywhere because of 2nd and ridiculous lobbying.  

The only choices are to arm up your self or just beat the odds and pray the bad gun culture changes.  Odds are you likely will never be shot.

you are wrong, I am so tired of the lobbying argument/NRA blah blah.  The vast majority of the people support the 2nd amendment in this country, and the NRA isnt in the pockets of anyone, they just happen to support people who agree with that side of the argument

If I was running for congress, I would gladly take money from the NRA cause I believe in the NRA and my grandfather was the San Diego chapter president, I come from a family of Gunsmiths, and everyone I know has them.

Now if Planned Parenthood, wanted to donate to me, I would say hell no, which is funny, how does planned parenthood have lobbyists, when they are a government funded program?

Guns today are not what they were 50 years ago let alone 200+ years ago. And in 10, 20 years they will probably be even more proficient in wiping out swathes of people in seconds - and potentially from a long, long way away.

And would your grandfather, I wonder, support Kim Jung-un's to have nuclear weapons?" Iran's? Israek's? Surely they have the same "right" to self protection and hunting? Do you? If not why not? Be warned though your argument could be repeated back at you.

At the very least its a question of degree. Which - and maybe I am wrong - you don't seem to acknowledge.

You are wrong.  There is no world constitution that guarantees North Korea or any country the right to develop nuclear arms. As a matter of fact NK was part of the non-proliferation treaty until 2005. It is literally the exact opposite situation from the second amendment in the US.  The Right to bear arms is part of our Constitution. If we want to change that then there are steps we must follow to do so. It has been done in the past.

If the world had a constitution that said Iran or NK had a Right to develop nuclear weapons, your analogy would be correct. There is no such right.

Ungood

Well they can cause mass controler breakage... 

Vrika

Slapshot1188 said:

gervaise1 said:

Mmochamp19 said:

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

I think both sides of the gun control argument are in denial.  The reality is that the US population is mentally sick and saturated with weapons.  No amount of armed people or gun banning will stop anything.  Guns do make things easier but guns aren't going anywhere because of 2nd and ridiculous lobbying.  

The only choices are to arm up your self or just beat the odds and pray the bad gun culture changes.  Odds are you likely will never be shot.

you are wrong, I am so tired of the lobbying argument/NRA blah blah.  The vast majority of the people support the 2nd amendment in this country, and the NRA isnt in the pockets of anyone, they just happen to support people who agree with that side of the argument

If I was running for congress, I would gladly take money from the NRA cause I believe in the NRA and my grandfather was the San Diego chapter president, I come from a family of Gunsmiths, and everyone I know has them.

Now if Planned Parenthood, wanted to donate to me, I would say hell no, which is funny, how does planned parenthood have lobbyists, when they are a government funded program?

Guns today are not what they were 50 years ago let alone 200+ years ago. And in 10, 20 years they will probably be even more proficient in wiping out swathes of people in seconds - and potentially from a long, long way away.

And would your grandfather, I wonder, support Kim Jung-un's to have nuclear weapons?" Iran's? Israek's? Surely they have the same "right" to self protection and hunting? Do you? If not why not? Be warned though your argument could be repeated back at you.

At the very least its a question of degree. Which - and maybe I am wrong - you don't seem to acknowledge.

You are wrong.  There is no world constitution that guarantees North Korea or any country the right to develop nuclear arms. As a matter of fact NK was part of the non-proliferation treaty until 2005. It is literally the exact opposite situation from the second amendment in the US.  The Right to bear arms is part of our Constitution. If we want to change that then there are steps we must follow to do so. It has been done in the past.

If the world had a constitution that said Iran or NK had a Right to develop nuclear weapons, your analogy would be correct. There is no such right.

North Korea may develop nuclear weapons for the same reason USA may have a constitution: They're sovereign countries. A country's authority comes from its ability to control its own territory and population, not from some world constitution.

klash2def

Funny I got in trouble for participating in this conversation, but I see it's still happening here in multiple threads..  very interesting.

RE: Shootings/Video Games

As I said, the shootings have nothing to do with video games, it all boils down to one word. Hatred. That's why the shootings happen. There is no other reason. Stop making excuses for evil.

I had PTSD before I turned 10, just from childhood trauma and growing up in an area where people got shot literally every day in the 90s... I served in the Marines and did 2 tours to Iraq (yes I'm a Post 9/11 vet) shit was very real, and I came out of that super depressed with even MORE PTSD..

Today I work in games as an Audio Engineer, my job (like many others) is very stressful with high demands. I still battle depression, that's why I play games.  I am not shy about my beliefs, I don't like or support Trump. I hate that he is the President, and he has done nothing but cause more division in our country.

I play and work on violent video games almost daily. 

EVEN WITH ALL OF THAT.. I have never once thought to myself "hm let me grab a gun and shoot up a bunch of people that look different than I,  I've never once thought let me kill a bunch of MAGA hat-wearing people, I never once said let me kill a bunch of people shopping at Walmart, let me kill people who are at a bar, movie theater, school, church.. etc. 

Not once have I ever had any of those thoughts. 

Video games have nothing to do with it. Hatred is what is driving these shootings. Hatred being stoked by an idiot of a leader. The dude literally has been saying his whole term that "Mexicans are invading this country"  So guess what happens in El Paso? That's right, some idiot kid targets Mexicans. 

I don't care how much you love your master, you cannot deny that Trump has played a far bigger role in these shootings than Video Games. Stop tap dancing around the truth. Stop making excuses for hate. 

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/04/us/politics/trump-mass-shootings.html 

klash2def

Arterius said:

klash2def said:

Funny I got in trouble for participating in this conversation, but I see it's still happening here in multiple threads..  very interesting.

RE: Shootings/Video Games

As I said, the shootings have nothing to do with video games, it all boils down to one word. Hatred. That's why the shootings happen. There is no other reason. Stop making excuses for evil.

I had PTSD before I turned 10, just from childhood trauma and growing up in an area where people got shot literally every day in the 90s... I served in the Marines and did 2 tours to Iraq (yes I'm a Post 9/11 vet) shit was very real, and I came out of that super depressed with even MORE PTSD..

Today I work in games as an Audio Engineer, my job (like many others) is very stressful with high demands. I still battle depression, that's why I play games.  I am not shy about my beliefs, I don't like or support Trump. I hate that he is the President, and he has done nothing but cause more division in our country.

I play and work on violent video games almost daily. 

EVEN WITH ALL OF THAT.. I have never once thought to myself "hm let me grab a gun and shoot up a bunch of people that look different than I,  I've never once thought let me kill a bunch of MAGA hat-wearing people, I never once said let me kill a bunch of people shopping at Walmart, let me kill people who are at a bar, movie theater, school, church.. etc. 

Not once have I ever had any of those thoughts. 

Video games have nothing to do with it. Hatred is what is driving these shootings. Hatred being stoked by an idiot of a leader. The dude literally has been saying his whole term that "Mexicans are invading this country"  So guess what happens in El Paso? That's right, some idiot kid targets Mexicans. 

I don't care how much you love your master, you cannot deny that Trump has played a far bigger role in these shootings than Video Games. Stop tap dancing around the truth. Stop making excuses for hate. 

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/04/us/politics/trump-mass-shootings.html 

I mean I am not a fan of Trump either but its not just him sowing hate. Its comes just as much from the left as it does on the right. 

There is a difference between the PRESIDENT of the UNITED STATES sowing hatred and everyone else. Huge difference. I don't care about sides. There are some things you just cannot do as PRESIDENT of the USA. He is more responsible than Video Games are is my point. 

Vermillion_Raventhal

Mmochamp19 said:

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

I think both sides of the gun control argument are in denial.  The reality is that the US population is mentally sick and saturated with weapons.  No amount of armed people or gun banning will stop anything.  Guns do make things easier but guns aren't going anywhere because of 2nd and ridiculous lobbying.  

The only choices are to arm up your self or just beat the odds and pray the bad gun culture changes.  Odds are you likely will never be shot.

you are wrong, I am so tired of the lobbying argument/NRA blah blah.  The vast majority of the people support the 2nd amendment in this country, and the NRA isnt in the pockets of anyone, they just happen to support people who agree with that side of the argument

If I was running for congress, I would gladly take money from the NRA cause I believe in the NRA and my grandfather was the San Diego chapter president, I come from a family of Gunsmiths, and everyone I know has them.

Now if Planned Parenthood, wanted to donate to me, I would say hell no, which is funny, how does planned parenthood have lobbyists, when they are a government funded program?

Eh, what you are talking about?  I said 2nd amendment and lobbyist which covers the laws, people who want guns and those who represent them. 

The rest is basically off on another topic.

Vermillion_Raventhal

Viper482 said:

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

I think both sides of the gun control argument are in denial.  The reality is that the US population is mentally sick and saturated with weapons.  No amount of armed people or gun banning will stop anything.  Guns do make things easier but guns aren't going anywhere because of 2nd and ridiculous lobbying.  

The only choices are to arm up your self or just beat the odds and pray the bad gun culture changes.  Odds are you likely will never be shot.

This is pathetically ignorant and moronic crap. You should be ashamed of yourself for posting it. I am embarrassed for you.

No you should be embarrassed throwing out insults without rebuttal.  

Vermillion_Raventhal

Torval said:

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

I think both sides of the gun control argument are in denial.  The reality is that the US population is mentally sick and saturated with weapons.  No amount of armed people or gun banning will stop anything.  Guns do make things easier but guns aren't going anywhere because of 2nd and ridiculous lobbying.  

The only choices are to arm up your self or just beat the odds and pray the bad gun culture changes.  Odds are you likely will never be shot.

That won't happen until we get tired of killing each other and the consequences for living like feral dogs.

Yeah, US culture has some very twisted attitudes about guns.  I am guilty of it myself at times.

TiamatRoar

Nearly all of the mass shootings so far have been carried out by people that would have passed most sanity tests or whatever, so improved mental healthcare sadly won't improve that situation very much (though it'll improve other things)

.....admittingly it probably will still have more impact than blaming videogames though.

TiamatRoar

Rhoklaw said:

TiamatRoar said:

Nearly all of the mass shootings so far have been carried out by people that would have passed most sanity tests or whatever, so improved mental healthcare sadly won't improve that situation very much (though it'll improve other things)

.....admittingly it probably will still have more impact than blaming videogames though.

Not sure what mental evaluations you've dealt with, but most of the recent mass shooters would definitely not have passed a typical mental health evaluation which asks questions repeatedly with different wording. Test results look for inconsistencies which generally leads one to believe the person is hiding something. Then you have the typical mannerisms of someone who is clinically insane, like Charles Manson. Between the evaluation and studying body language, it's not hard at all to determine ones state of mind.

Thing is, even if mental evaluations hypothetically were capable of what you are saying they are (I disagree, but as mentioned by the previous poster, we could argue all day about that and get no where), how would you know to mentally evaluate those individuals in the first place?  Sure, it hypothetically, if you are correct, might be easy enough to figure out they're ill once you start questioning them, but how would you know to question them in the first place?

If it were so easy to detect these people in the first place and realize they need help, you'd see it happen more often instead of all these people who, AFTER the mass shooting happened, always say "Oooooooooh, yea, that guy was nuts".  Hindsight is 20/20 but that means nothing for finding out if a person is going to do a mass shooting BEFORE they do the mass shooting.

Myrdynn

Jeez dude, you would think a week long ban and dude wouldn't jump right back to his blame Trump for everything schpeil, oh well, I am not going down this road again

klash2def

Myrdynn said:

Jeez dude, you would think a week long ban and dude wouldn't jump right back to his blame Trump for everything schpeil, oh well, I am not going down this road again

??????????????



I am relaying my opinion like many others here and you choose to target ME.  Maybe 45 was your sugar daddy or something the way you get offended it's like you are defending a teen boyfriend..tbh you just look like a b**** (edited for more emphasis) 

You would think that after your week-long ban you wouldn't jump right back on my nutsack but somehow... you found your way back. You couldn't wait to mention me.

FTR I want everyone to see how you continually start shit with me. For no reason. I didn't mention you, didn't say a word about you ( i never do, you actually have zero importance)  and you still want to talk shit about me. WHY?
(it's rhetorical no need to answer, I don't care. ) 

Welcome to my BLOCK/IGNORE list. 

This Message was endorsed by Obama

Myrdynn

what a shock, I cant imagine if I would have spent the previous 8 years of my life blaming Obummer for everything, instead I got up and went to work, just like a normal person.  Also I am not a Trump supporter, but whatever #everythingisracist

laserit

IMHO

Desperate people do desperate things.

Whats making them so desperate?

JeffSpicoli

laserit said:

IMHO

Desperate people do desperate things.

Whats making them so desperate?

Im no shrink but if i had to guess, Hysteria and fear mongering 

Caffynated

TiamatRoar said:

I don't think videogames have reached the level of realism for them to help "normalize" killing in a person's mind yet.  Pretty sure the way the military trains for such things is entirely different and involves lots of live exercises, etc.  If anything, pretty sure videogames do the opposite due to the uncanny valley effect where holding a real gun and shooting someone feels VERY different from how such things happen in games when done via a controller or light gun, etc.

If the military can double the number of soldiers shooting to kill just by switching from from bullseye targets to human shaped targets, I think vidya is capable of having a similar effect. While it may not have the same realism and impact that a live fire exercise with simunition has, those exercises are done for a few hours over a career while games are played for thousands of hours. 

Hawkaya399

Caffynated said:

While I wouldn't say that vidya causes or motivates shootings, I don't think it's accurate to say they haven't contributed somewhat to them. 

After WW2 the military did a study of the willingness of soldiers to shoot to kill and found that a very small percentage actually bothered to aim at an enemy and attempt to hit them. It was determined that most people find killing abhorrent and even on a battlefield are not comfortable with intentionally taking a life. 

Following the results of this study they began training programs designed to lesson this the effects of this innate reaction and normalize shooting another human being. They've refined the training (one might call it brain washing) down to the point where nearly 100% of trained soldiers shoot to kill. 

Lindybeige did an episode on this, and it's worth watching:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zViyZGmBhvs

How does this relate to games? We're undergoing that same normalization process. It may even be more intense and effective than what the military has done, as we're often shooting at human characters controlled by real people. 

To stress the point, no I'm not saying games cause or motivate shootings. But it's inaccurate to say they haven't contributed at all. You combine someone who is angry or psychotic enough to commit mass murder, with the normalization of killing from hours of gaming and you have a recipe for disaster. Does that mean we should ban games? Not any more than we should ban human shaped range targets. 

IF what you say is true, where's hte evidence? No research supports a link between violent video games and shootings. Your video shows some military programs using skinnerian psychology and man-shaped targets to reportedly increase the numbers of soldiers shooting to kill on hte battlefiedl (by making it a reflex). Those're not the same thing. You're doing apples and oranges. Furthermore, killing on a battlefield is not the same thing as indiscriminate killing in a school or public place. True scientific research demands FAR more empirical thoroughness.

Noobmaster_95

bwwianakiev said:

There's more evidence that government hypnosis causes mass shootings than video games.

True