No evidence video games cause mass shootings

Azaron_Nightblade

Kyleran said:

Sometimes I think the Purge movies are ever closer to becoming a reality.

LOL, when I first watched those movies, it was one of the first things I thought. "Wow, I could actually see some politician pulling this. Scary."

TiamatRoar

Caffynated said:

TiamatRoar said:

I don't think videogames have reached the level of realism for them to help "normalize" killing in a person's mind yet.  Pretty sure the way the military trains for such things is entirely different and involves lots of live exercises, etc.  If anything, pretty sure videogames do the opposite due to the uncanny valley effect where holding a real gun and shooting someone feels VERY different from how such things happen in games when done via a controller or light gun, etc.

If the military can double the number of soldiers shooting to kill just by switching from from bullseye targets to human shaped targets, I think vidya is capable of having a similar effect. While it may not have the same realism and impact that a live fire exercise with simunition has, those exercises are done for a few hours over a career while games are played for thousands of hours. 

There's actually a huge difference between live shooting something shaped-like a human and virtual shooting one on a TV screen using a controller or even a light gun (not that there are many light guns these days anyways).

The former makes it a reflex built into your body to use a gun with your actual muscles and own hands against a human target, and the soldier's brain already knows that's what you're supposed to be doing.  The latter, you're using a controller or even with a light gun, shooting at a screen, and the player is well aware that they are not a soldier getting ready to kill other soldiers in real life (well, unless they are, but most if not all mass shooters didn't use a video game to train themselves. They used a shooting range instead cause using a videogame to train yourself to hit a target instead of live training when learning how to shoot a real gun is idiotic).  The mental implant that occurs is vastly different.

Viper482

Prime_Directive said:

Viper482 said:

Prime_Directive said:

Viper482 said:

Listening to non-Americans talk about guns in America hurts my brain. 

First of all....it isn't the wild west here. I am 48 years old and don't know one person who has been shot or even shot at. I have lived in big cities like Tampa, Miami, El Paso, and Las Vegas and I have never heard gunshots just being out in the community or sitting in my home. We have 320 million people in our country, we have states that have a bigger population than most countries. We have 90 million law abiding gun owners. Think about those numbers, then think of the fact we lose about 10,000 people to murder by firearm each year. 

Do the math. If you read the news you would think death by gun is the leading cause of death in the U.S., it does not make the top 15, at which point 16+ is "all other causes".

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr68/nvsr68_09-508.pdf 

you have to omit the exception of Chicago and Baltimore . 

No I don't, this is exactly my point. This is a huge country, you cannot compare us as a country to tiny countries with the population that equals one of our states. Even in a large city like Chicago the majority of shootings are where? South side? It is not like you can't visit Chicago as a tourist without fear of being murdered. It's gang violence and it's in the "hood", not the entire city.

. People get shot every single day. They're shooting in small towns you haven't even heard of and aren't report nationally. There is at least 1 shooting a week in my area of nowhere. 

From what I'm seeing in your comment , is because you don't personally see it happening in front of "your" eyes, it is not an epidemic ? 

Are you saying you devalue human life by the scale of their income because in rich neighborhoods don't see shooting ? I'm using this word by definition, that is a very "ignorant" way of viewing shooting. We are all human, doesn't matter if it is in the ghetto or on 5th avenue, a life is a life.

Chicago :

"Early Sunday, 17 people were shot in a period of two hours in a small pocket on the city’s West Side, turning residential blocks into chaotic scenes of ambulances, grieving family members and cars pockmarked with bullets.

There were 32 separate shooting incidents throughout the weekend, the police said."

Don't strawman me. I stated FACTS. 10,000 people per year are killed in this HUGE country of 320,000,000 people. My ONLY point...was if you ONLY listen to the news and to people like you, one would believe we are dodging bullets on the way to work every day. 

Strawman fallacy is for people who either lack reading comprehension or are intellectually dishonest. Which one are you?  Don't respond to my posts if you are not going to address the actual premise of my argument. Turning this into "you don't care about poor people" is bullshit. 

Viper482

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

Viper482 said:

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

I think both sides of the gun control argument are in denial.  The reality is that the US population is mentally sick and saturated with weapons.  No amount of armed people or gun banning will stop anything.  Guns do make things easier but guns aren't going anywhere because of 2nd and ridiculous lobbying.  

The only choices are to arm up your self or just beat the odds and pray the bad gun culture changes.  Odds are you likely will never be shot.

This is pathetically ignorant and moronic crap. You should be ashamed of yourself for posting it. I am embarrassed for you.

No you should be embarrassed throwing out insults without rebuttal.  

You're right, my emotions got the best of me. I do think your comments were ignorant and paint an absurd picture of our country in general. I find some truth in it but it is too exaggerated for me to grasp any more than that.

Ungood

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

Torval said:

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

I think both sides of the gun control argument are in denial.  The reality is that the US population is mentally sick and saturated with weapons.  No amount of armed people or gun banning will stop anything.  Guns do make things easier but guns aren't going anywhere because of 2nd and ridiculous lobbying.  

The only choices are to arm up your self or just beat the odds and pray the bad gun culture changes.  Odds are you likely will never be shot.

That won't happen until we get tired of killing each other and the consequences for living like feral dogs.

Yeah, US culture has some very twisted attitudes about guns.  I am guilty of it myself at times.

Nahh.. just most Americans understand that a Gun is a tool, not any different than a hammer or knife, and like any tool, it is only as deadly as the person using it.

See Evil or "Right and Wrong" are an action of motive, a machine or a tool, cannot have motive, it cannot be good or evil, it is just an object.

Just like a Nuclear Warhead is neither good nor evil, it is just a thing, it is not the weapon that is the problem, it is who has it.

The issue is, when it comes to America, we don't trust our government, and given how often and how much they screw over the general people, this is a well founded lack of trust (Why we have not revolted yet is beyond me), so, asking our dead incompetent leaders to judge who is fit to own a gun is not something any really sane American wants to do.

Which also happens to be why many Americans do not trust public health care, it's not that they don't want health care, or even that public health care is a bad thing, it's that, keep in mind, you are asking the same people that have screwed up social security funds, to now cover your health care.. and trying to tell half this country "But this time they won't fuck it up" when their batting record has been shit.. 

This is really why Americans are against gun laws.. 

jonp200

This has been debated for years.  I recall a Columbia University study during the last attack on video games that found no evidence of a link to violence.  To be fair, that same study however did indicate that playing violent games could contribute to more agitation for someone already mentally unstable which makes sense.

Violence in movies has also been cited as a contributing factor too; hogwash.  I grew up watching Warner Brothers cartoons with Wiley Coyote dropping 500 lb Acme weights on everything in sight. It was entertainment not reality.

What is more concerning in my mind is a lack of awareness in a community.  Only 31% of Americans know their neighbors.  In the aftermath of one of these tragedies I keep seeing interviews with community members; "he was a quiet guy.  Seemed nice but I didn't really know him..." (sic)  There is more going on here that access to guns and playing video games.

Tiamat64

jonp200 said:

This has been debated for years.  I recall a Columbia University study during the last attack on video games that found no evidence of a link to violence.  To be fair, that same study however did indicate that playing violent games could contribute to more agitation for someone already mentally unstable which makes sense.

Violence in movies has also been cited as a contributing factor too; hogwash.  I grew up watching Warner Brothers cartoons with Wiley Coyote dropping 500 lb Acme weights on everything in sight. It was entertainment not reality.

What is more concerning in my mind is a lack of awareness in a community.  Only 31% of Americans know their neighbors.  In the aftermath of one of these tragedies I keep seeing interviews with community members; "he was a quiet guy.  Seemed nice but I didn't really know him..." (sic)  There is more going on here that access to guns and playing video games.

It's hard to get to know quiet unsociable people.  What are you supposed to do if someone is purposefully staying away from others?  Invade their private life?

That said, in several cases there were interviews with people who did reach out and try to get to know the mass shooter before he shot up everyone (of course, at the time, they didn't know he'd become a mass shooter).  In the end, they ended up cutting off relations with that person because it turns out that most people who become mass shooters are assholes.  What a surprise.

Vrika

Tiamat64 said:

jonp200 said:

This has been debated for years.  I recall a Columbia University study during the last attack on video games that found no evidence of a link to violence.  To be fair, that same study however did indicate that playing violent games could contribute to more agitation for someone already mentally unstable which makes sense.

Violence in movies has also been cited as a contributing factor too; hogwash.  I grew up watching Warner Brothers cartoons with Wiley Coyote dropping 500 lb Acme weights on everything in sight. It was entertainment not reality.

What is more concerning in my mind is a lack of awareness in a community.  Only 31% of Americans know their neighbors.  In the aftermath of one of these tragedies I keep seeing interviews with community members; "he was a quiet guy.  Seemed nice but I didn't really know him..." (sic)  There is more going on here that access to guns and playing video games.

It's hard to get to know quiet unsociable people.  What are you supposed to do if someone is purposefully staying away from others?  Invade their private life?

That said, in several cases there were interviews with people who did reach out and try to get to know the mass shooter before he shot up everyone (of course, at the time, they didn't know he'd become a mass shooter).  In the end, they ended up cutting off relations with that person because it turns out that most people who become mass shooters are assholes.  What a surprise.

Who'd give an interview about how he had a great friend who turned out to be a mass shooter, and who'd want to publish that?

Mass shooters do likely have more problems and less good relationships than average people, but what we see is also biased based on what people and media want to report.

Tiamat64

Vrika said:

Tiamat64 said:

jonp200 said:

This has been debated for years.  I recall a Columbia University study during the last attack on video games that found no evidence of a link to violence.  To be fair, that same study however did indicate that playing violent games could contribute to more agitation for someone already mentally unstable which makes sense.

Violence in movies has also been cited as a contributing factor too; hogwash.  I grew up watching Warner Brothers cartoons with Wiley Coyote dropping 500 lb Acme weights on everything in sight. It was entertainment not reality.

What is more concerning in my mind is a lack of awareness in a community.  Only 31% of Americans know their neighbors.  In the aftermath of one of these tragedies I keep seeing interviews with community members; "he was a quiet guy.  Seemed nice but I didn't really know him..." (sic)  There is more going on here that access to guns and playing video games.

It's hard to get to know quiet unsociable people.  What are you supposed to do if someone is purposefully staying away from others?  Invade their private life?

That said, in several cases there were interviews with people who did reach out and try to get to know the mass shooter before he shot up everyone (of course, at the time, they didn't know he'd become a mass shooter).  In the end, they ended up cutting off relations with that person because it turns out that most people who become mass shooters are assholes.  What a surprise.

Who'd give an interview about how he had a great friend who turned out to be a mass shooter, and who'd want to publish that?

Mass shooters do likely have more problems and less good relationships than average people, but what we see is also biased based on what people and media want to report.

*shrug*  If the topic in question is "People need to get to know each other better", I believe that "Mass shooters are the types of personalities that are hard to get to know" is a more likely factor than "Maybe mass shooters are good enough people who had good friends that the media isn't interviewing and it's other peoples' fault for not getting to know them!"

Axxar

Funny how other western countries play just as many video games but have far fewer guns do not have these issues, huh?

Very hard to figure out, this one. Requires at least 200 IQ.

gunklacker

"Just like a Nuclear Warhead is neither good nor evil, it is just a thing, it is not the weapon that is the problem, it is who has it."

Nope your wrong a Nuclear Warhead is 1000% evil

Ungood

gunklacker said:

"Just like a Nuclear Warhead is neither good nor evil, it is just a thing, it is not the weapon that is the problem, it is who has it."

Nope your wrong a Nuclear Warhead is 1000% evil

We shall simply disagree, as a warhead is just an object and an object cannot be good or evil, anymore than a rock can be good or evil. For something to be evil, requires motive and intent, something that all objects lack.

Now.. you could argue that the motive behind making a Warhead is 1000% evil, that the need to have and build a weapon of such devastation is the apex of human evilness and insanity.. that could be its own great discussion. 

But one I have no intention of having.

Kyleran

Azaron_Nightblade said:

Kyleran said:

Sometimes I think the Purge movies are ever closer to becoming a reality.

LOL, when I first watched those movies, it was one of the first things I thought. "Wow, I could actually see some politician pulling this. Scary."

When they first came out I thought no way, but after events of the past 4 years I'm  not so sure.

Iselin

laserit said:

IMHO

Desperate people do desperate things.

Whats making them so desperate?

Politicians and religious fundamentalists inciting division.

If you read up on most of these mass shooting incidents you'll notice a common thread of extreme hate for some group or another. If Moslem extremists leaders can incite people to volunteer to be suicide bombers and we rightly blame the leaders for inciting the violence, why is it so hard for people to understand who is to blame when it's Americans going on a killing rampage?

klash2def

Iselin said:

laserit said:

IMHO

Desperate people do desperate things.

Whats making them so desperate?

Politicians and religious fundamentalists inciting division.

If you read up on most of these mass shooting incidents you'll notice a common thread of extreme hate for some group or another. If Moslem extremists leaders can incite people to volunteer to be suicide bombers and we rightly blame the leaders for inciting the violence, why is it so hard for people to understand who is to blame when it's Americans going on a killing rampage?

this exactly! It's confusing to me...but I remember that a lot of people would rather be willfully ignorant, and obtuse than to be honest. Everyone knows exactly what is inciting all this violence. It's painfully obvious yet and still... let's blame mental health and video games.

right...


AS I said there millions of people who play video games and suffer from mental health issues. If those things were the real reason, there would be a shit-ton more mass shootings and that's saying a lot because there are already WAY too many in just the last 3 years.  

I tend to believe there is something else going on and it starts at the leadership. It's ridiculous that it has to be explained. 

klash2def

Ungood said:

gunklacker said:

"Just like a Nuclear Warhead is neither good nor evil, it is just a thing, it is not the weapon that is the problem, it is who has it."

Nope your wrong a Nuclear Warhead is 1000% evil

We shall simply disagree, as a warhead is just an object and an object cannot be good or evil, anymore than a rock can be good or evil. For something to be evil, requires motive and intent, something that all objects lack.

Now.. you could argue that the motive behind making a Warhead is 1000% evil, that the need to have and build a weapon of such devastation is the apex of human evilness and insanity.. that could be its own great discussion. 

But one I have no intention of having.

Well, I don't think anyone here is saying objects can reason or make choices. You are basically saying the same thing he is saying if you take semantics out of it. The bottom line is what here? 

Slapshot1188

klash2def said:

Iselin said:

laserit said:

IMHO

Desperate people do desperate things.

Whats making them so desperate?

Politicians and religious fundamentalists inciting division.

If you read up on most of these mass shooting incidents you'll notice a common thread of extreme hate for some group or another. If Moslem extremists leaders can incite people to volunteer to be suicide bombers and we rightly blame the leaders for inciting the violence, why is it so hard for people to understand who is to blame when it's Americans going on a killing rampage?

this exactly! It's confusing to me...but I remember that a lot of people would rather be willfully ignorant, and obtuse than to be honest. Everyone knows exactly what is inciting all this violence. It's painfully obvious yet and still... let's blame mental health and video games.

right...


AS I said there millions of people who play video games and suffer from mental health issues. If those things were the real reason, there would be a shit-ton more mass shootings and that's saying a lot because there are already WAY too many in just the last 3 years.  

I tend to believe there is something else going on and it starts at the leadership. It's ridiculous that it has to be explained. 

Here is my take:

There is not one golden solution.   There are many different reasons and thus many different solutions.   At it's heart we have a culture that more and more separates into "Us vs Them" camps.  We also have a culture that is totally awash in violent images.   Certainly those games, movies, shows are not THE reason for ALL shootings, but I think it would be wise to at least consider that SOME people can be influenced by the devaluation of life depicted in movies, TV shows and games. And SOME people can then act out on those sick fantasies.

I dunno about you but when I watched the Karate Kid as a child I was practicing the Crane kick.  When I saw Rocky I was playing that Rocky Theme in my Walkman (haha) while exercising. Those movies inspired me, at least for a short while... to do something in real life.

Is it SOOO far fetched to think that SOME people can be similarly influenced by violent games, movies and shows?  I have never felt the compulsion to drink excessively but I understand that some people cannot just have 1 drink.  It affects each of us differently.

I have never felt the urge to pick up a gun or sword in real life to mow down people after playing a Battlefield game, but I am also not arrogant enough to project my experience on the millions of other people playing.  After all... it's only a handful of those millions that do this.  There are roughly 131,000,000 people who have a firearm at home in the US.  Just a minuscule fraction of a percent of those are involved in a mass shooting.

There are over 200,000,000 people that play some kind of video game in the US (no idea what percent play violent games but lets be honest.. there are a lot). Is it so far fetched to believe that a minuscule fraction of those (same as above) could be influenced to act out some violent fantasy because they spent hours and hours murdering people in a video game?

I am not saying we should ban anything.  I am saying that we should not be so dismissive of looking into every cause.  We have a huge population.  It is literally a fraction of a fraction of a percent that commits these crimes.  I do know that movies have motivated me to do things or change behavior in real life.  I do not think it totally far fetched to believe that SOME people can be similarly swayed to act out violent fantasies.

Did you never watch a movie, TV show... or listen to some music and get inspired to do something?  Hopefully something good... but I think we have ALL been influenced by entertainment to some degree, haven't we?

Hawkaya399

It's not good. Something is messed up. It's just another reason for some group or another to incite their agenda. Another reason for more freedoms to be eroded.

Below is some supporting evidence to back up the assertion there's a rise in school shootings, if not mass shootings.

Rapid rise in mass school shootings in the United States, study shows

- https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/04/180419131025.htm

"In less than 18 years, we have already seen more deaths related to school shootings than in the whole 20th century. One alarming trend is that the overwhelming majority of 21st-century shooters were adolescents, suggesting that it is now easier for them to access guns, and that they more frequently suffer from mental health issues or limited conflict resolution skills," says Katsiyannis

So in the whole 20th century there were 25 shooters, 55 deaths and 260 injuries. From 2000 to 2018, the above research shows 13 lone shooters responsible for the deaths of 66 people and 81 injuries. In the 20th century, only 60 percent of the shooters were adolescent, but in the 21st century almost all of them were adolescents--and more of them were already diagnosed with mental health issues.

So the takeaway is:

1) modern school shooters are more lethal, killing more targets

2) they're younger

3) more of them are already diagnosed with mental illnesses

To investigate the mental health question, I offer a link below.

Supporting link:

- https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1047279714001471

The evidence does show a connection between mental illness and various violent episodes, over the normal population, however it's more complicated, strongly influenced by things like substance abuse, socioeconomic status, male gender (responsible for 97% of all mass shootings for example) and being younger. In fact, these factors seem to be largely responsible, as opposed to mental illness alone.

Some passages from the above link are shown below:

...The study painted a picture of a group of individuals with serious and disabling mental health conditions, but also a marginalized group with very low social capital—mostly unemployed, economically impoverished, typically residing in disadvantaged neighborhoods, often misusing alcohol and illicit drugs, and reporting alarmingly high rates of trauma and violent victimization over their life course. Many of these characteristics and experiences were found to be highly significant correlates of violent behavior. Conversely, participants in the study who merely had a diagnosis of serious mental illness but did not have a history of violent victimization, were not exposed to neighborhood violence, and were not abusing drugs or alcohol, had annual rates of violent behavior in line with the general population without any mental illness—about 2% [30]. Evidence from studies in criminology and developmental epidemiology has shown that risk factors for crime and violence are similar in persons with mental illness and in the general population, and that risk exposure often begins early in life [31], [32]. The ECA, MVRAS, and five-state findings tended to support that view, in part.

(these are separate quotes)

Gallup polling data from January, 2013 showed that 48% of adult Americans blame the mental health system “a great deal” for mass shootings in the United States, whereas fewer (40%) blame easy access to guns; an inadequate mental health system is perceived as the top cause of mass shootings [86]. Our failing mental health-care system on the one hand and gun violence on the other are each complex, important, but different public health problems facing the US—problems that intersect at their edges. More research to support effective policies and implementation is needed in both arenas. Public attention to the mass shootings—too often fueled by ill-informed and sensationalized media portrayals that overgeneralize the connection between mental illness and violence—must be redirected and channeled to build support for evidence-based policies both to improve mental health care and reduce gun violence, in ways that will promote public safety without increasing stigma and unnecessarily infringing on the rights and privacy of people with mental health conditions.

mmolou

Guns Dont Kill People

Phry

Slapshot1188 said:

klash2def said:

Iselin said:

laserit said:

IMHO

Desperate people do desperate things.

Whats making them so desperate?

Politicians and religious fundamentalists inciting division.

If you read up on most of these mass shooting incidents you'll notice a common thread of extreme hate for some group or another. If Moslem extremists leaders can incite people to volunteer to be suicide bombers and we rightly blame the leaders for inciting the violence, why is it so hard for people to understand who is to blame when it's Americans going on a killing rampage?

this exactly! It's confusing to me...but I remember that a lot of people would rather be willfully ignorant, and obtuse than to be honest. Everyone knows exactly what is inciting all this violence. It's painfully obvious yet and still... let's blame mental health and video games.

right...


AS I said there millions of people who play video games and suffer from mental health issues. If those things were the real reason, there would be a shit-ton more mass shootings and that's saying a lot because there are already WAY too many in just the last 3 years.  

I tend to believe there is something else going on and it starts at the leadership. It's ridiculous that it has to be explained. 

Here is my take:

There is not one golden solution.   There are many different reasons and thus many different solutions.   At it's heart we have a culture that more and more separates into "Us vs Them" camps.  We also have a culture that is totally awash in violent images.   Certainly those games, movies, shows are not THE reason for ALL shootings, but I think it would be wise to at least consider that SOME people can be influenced by the devaluation of life depicted in movies, TV shows and games. And SOME people can then act out on those sick fantasies.

I dunno about you but when I watched the Karate Kid as a child I was practicing the Crane kick.  When I saw Rocky I was playing that Rocky Theme in my Walkman (haha) while exercising. Those movies inspired me, at least for a short while... to do something in real life.

Is it SOOO far fetched to think that SOME people can be similarly influenced by violent games, movies and shows?  I have never felt the compulsion to drink excessively but I understand that some people cannot just have 1 drink.  It affects each of us differently.

I have never felt the urge to pick up a gun or sword in real life to mow down people after playing a Battlefield game, but I am also not arrogant enough to project my experience on the millions of other people playing.  After all... it's only a handful of those millions that do this.  There are roughly 131,000,000 people who have a firearm at home in the US.  Just a minuscule fraction of a percent of those are involved in a mass shooting.

There are over 200,000,000 people that play some kind of video game in the US (no idea what percent play violent games but lets be honest.. there are a lot). Is it so far fetched to believe that a minuscule fraction of those (same as above) could be influenced to act out some violent fantasy because they spent hours and hours murdering people in a video game?

I am not saying we should ban anything.  I am saying that we should not be so dismissive of looking into every cause.  We have a huge population.  It is literally a fraction of a fraction of a percent that commits these crimes.  I do know that movies have motivated me to do things or change behavior in real life.  I do not think it totally far fetched to believe that SOME people can be similarly swayed to act out violent fantasies.

Did you never watch a movie, TV show... or listen to some music and get inspired to do something?  Hopefully something good... but I think we have ALL been influenced by entertainment to some degree, haven't we?

I think your just reaching tbh, but i can imagine why, you need something to blame, to be able to point at something and say this is the problem and we need to fix it, video games aren't it though, neither is it the 'orange man bad' thing either. There is an ideology problem and some of it is imported, but there is a far left extremist problem too, and its only getting worse because most of them actually think anything to the right of karl marx is fascism, antifa, bamn, blm they are all just symptoms. Blaming video games is moral cowardice really, because its the easy option, and wrong.

Slapshot1188

Phry said:

Slapshot1188 said:

klash2def said:

Iselin said:

laserit said:

IMHO

Desperate people do desperate things.

Whats making them so desperate?

Politicians and religious fundamentalists inciting division.

If you read up on most of these mass shooting incidents you'll notice a common thread of extreme hate for some group or another. If Moslem extremists leaders can incite people to volunteer to be suicide bombers and we rightly blame the leaders for inciting the violence, why is it so hard for people to understand who is to blame when it's Americans going on a killing rampage?

this exactly! It's confusing to me...but I remember that a lot of people would rather be willfully ignorant, and obtuse than to be honest. Everyone knows exactly what is inciting all this violence. It's painfully obvious yet and still... let's blame mental health and video games.

right...


AS I said there millions of people who play video games and suffer from mental health issues. If those things were the real reason, there would be a shit-ton more mass shootings and that's saying a lot because there are already WAY too many in just the last 3 years.  

I tend to believe there is something else going on and it starts at the leadership. It's ridiculous that it has to be explained. 

Here is my take:

There is not one golden solution.   There are many different reasons and thus many different solutions.   At it's heart we have a culture that more and more separates into "Us vs Them" camps.  We also have a culture that is totally awash in violent images.   Certainly those games, movies, shows are not THE reason for ALL shootings, but I think it would be wise to at least consider that SOME people can be influenced by the devaluation of life depicted in movies, TV shows and games. And SOME people can then act out on those sick fantasies.

I dunno about you but when I watched the Karate Kid as a child I was practicing the Crane kick.  When I saw Rocky I was playing that Rocky Theme in my Walkman (haha) while exercising. Those movies inspired me, at least for a short while... to do something in real life.

Is it SOOO far fetched to think that SOME people can be similarly influenced by violent games, movies and shows?  I have never felt the compulsion to drink excessively but I understand that some people cannot just have 1 drink.  It affects each of us differently.

I have never felt the urge to pick up a gun or sword in real life to mow down people after playing a Battlefield game, but I am also not arrogant enough to project my experience on the millions of other people playing.  After all... it's only a handful of those millions that do this.  There are roughly 131,000,000 people who have a firearm at home in the US.  Just a minuscule fraction of a percent of those are involved in a mass shooting.

There are over 200,000,000 people that play some kind of video game in the US (no idea what percent play violent games but lets be honest.. there are a lot). Is it so far fetched to believe that a minuscule fraction of those (same as above) could be influenced to act out some violent fantasy because they spent hours and hours murdering people in a video game?

I am not saying we should ban anything.  I am saying that we should not be so dismissive of looking into every cause.  We have a huge population.  It is literally a fraction of a fraction of a percent that commits these crimes.  I do know that movies have motivated me to do things or change behavior in real life.  I do not think it totally far fetched to believe that SOME people can be similarly swayed to act out violent fantasies.

Did you never watch a movie, TV show... or listen to some music and get inspired to do something?  Hopefully something good... but I think we have ALL been influenced by entertainment to some degree, haven't we?

I think your just reaching tbh, but i can imagine why, you need something to blame, to be able to point at something and say this is the problem and we need to fix it, video games aren't it though, neither is it the 'orange man bad' thing either. There is an ideology problem and some of it is imported, but there is a far left extremist problem too, and its only getting worse because most of them actually think anything to the right of karl marx is fascism, antifa, bamn, blm they are all just symptoms. Blaming video games is moral cowardice really, because its the easy option, and wrong.

Did you see me blame anything at all in my post?  I did not.  The reach was in your reply.  I said it is POSSIBLE that SOME small fraction of people could be influenced by violent movies, TV and games to commit violent acts.  To believe that there can be literally NO association for ANY person is IMHO utterly arrogant.

Phry

Slapshot1188 said:

Phry said:

Slapshot1188 said:

klash2def said:

Iselin said:

laserit said:

IMHO

Desperate people do desperate things.

Whats making them so desperate?

Politicians and religious fundamentalists inciting division.

If you read up on most of these mass shooting incidents you'll notice a common thread of extreme hate for some group or another. If Moslem extremists leaders can incite people to volunteer to be suicide bombers and we rightly blame the leaders for inciting the violence, why is it so hard for people to understand who is to blame when it's Americans going on a killing rampage?

this exactly! It's confusing to me...but I remember that a lot of people would rather be willfully ignorant, and obtuse than to be honest. Everyone knows exactly what is inciting all this violence. It's painfully obvious yet and still... let's blame mental health and video games.

right...


AS I said there millions of people who play video games and suffer from mental health issues. If those things were the real reason, there would be a shit-ton more mass shootings and that's saying a lot because there are already WAY too many in just the last 3 years.  

I tend to believe there is something else going on and it starts at the leadership. It's ridiculous that it has to be explained. 

Here is my take:

There is not one golden solution.   There are many different reasons and thus many different solutions.   At it's heart we have a culture that more and more separates into "Us vs Them" camps.  We also have a culture that is totally awash in violent images.   Certainly those games, movies, shows are not THE reason for ALL shootings, but I think it would be wise to at least consider that SOME people can be influenced by the devaluation of life depicted in movies, TV shows and games. And SOME people can then act out on those sick fantasies.

I dunno about you but when I watched the Karate Kid as a child I was practicing the Crane kick.  When I saw Rocky I was playing that Rocky Theme in my Walkman (haha) while exercising. Those movies inspired me, at least for a short while... to do something in real life.

Is it SOOO far fetched to think that SOME people can be similarly influenced by violent games, movies and shows?  I have never felt the compulsion to drink excessively but I understand that some people cannot just have 1 drink.  It affects each of us differently.

I have never felt the urge to pick up a gun or sword in real life to mow down people after playing a Battlefield game, but I am also not arrogant enough to project my experience on the millions of other people playing.  After all... it's only a handful of those millions that do this.  There are roughly 131,000,000 people who have a firearm at home in the US.  Just a minuscule fraction of a percent of those are involved in a mass shooting.

There are over 200,000,000 people that play some kind of video game in the US (no idea what percent play violent games but lets be honest.. there are a lot). Is it so far fetched to believe that a minuscule fraction of those (same as above) could be influenced to act out some violent fantasy because they spent hours and hours murdering people in a video game?

I am not saying we should ban anything.  I am saying that we should not be so dismissive of looking into every cause.  We have a huge population.  It is literally a fraction of a fraction of a percent that commits these crimes.  I do know that movies have motivated me to do things or change behavior in real life.  I do not think it totally far fetched to believe that SOME people can be similarly swayed to act out violent fantasies.

Did you never watch a movie, TV show... or listen to some music and get inspired to do something?  Hopefully something good... but I think we have ALL been influenced by entertainment to some degree, haven't we?

I think your just reaching tbh, but i can imagine why, you need something to blame, to be able to point at something and say this is the problem and we need to fix it, video games aren't it though, neither is it the 'orange man bad' thing either. There is an ideology problem and some of it is imported, but there is a far left extremist problem too, and its only getting worse because most of them actually think anything to the right of karl marx is fascism, antifa, bamn, blm they are all just symptoms. Blaming video games is moral cowardice really, because its the easy option, and wrong.

Did you see me blame anything at all in my post?  I did not.  The reach was in your reply.  I said it is POSSIBLE that SOME small fraction of people could be influenced by violent movies, TV and games to commit violent acts.  To believe that there can be literally NO association for ANY person is IMHO utterly arrogant.

The trouble is you can also use the argument that some of them must have also gone to McDonalds and had happy meals and that 'might' have influenced them, though honestly with the composition of those things maybe there is a causational link. And no, there is no link between video games, or movies or tv dramas though maybe Dallas might be an exception, i mean, who shot JR! maybe that spurred someone to repeat it! 
There have been numerous scientific studies carried out, and they are conclusive, video games are not the problem, you can call me arrogant as much as you like, at least i am not engaging in moral cowardice.

Slapshot1188

Phry said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Phry said:

Slapshot1188 said:

klash2def said:

Iselin said:

laserit said:

IMHO

Desperate people do desperate things.

Whats making them so desperate?

Politicians and religious fundamentalists inciting division.

If you read up on most of these mass shooting incidents you'll notice a common thread of extreme hate for some group or another. If Moslem extremists leaders can incite people to volunteer to be suicide bombers and we rightly blame the leaders for inciting the violence, why is it so hard for people to understand who is to blame when it's Americans going on a killing rampage?

this exactly! It's confusing to me...but I remember that a lot of people would rather be willfully ignorant, and obtuse than to be honest. Everyone knows exactly what is inciting all this violence. It's painfully obvious yet and still... let's blame mental health and video games.

right...


AS I said there millions of people who play video games and suffer from mental health issues. If those things were the real reason, there would be a shit-ton more mass shootings and that's saying a lot because there are already WAY too many in just the last 3 years.  

I tend to believe there is something else going on and it starts at the leadership. It's ridiculous that it has to be explained. 

Here is my take:

There is not one golden solution.   There are many different reasons and thus many different solutions.   At it's heart we have a culture that more and more separates into "Us vs Them" camps.  We also have a culture that is totally awash in violent images.   Certainly those games, movies, shows are not THE reason for ALL shootings, but I think it would be wise to at least consider that SOME people can be influenced by the devaluation of life depicted in movies, TV shows and games. And SOME people can then act out on those sick fantasies.

I dunno about you but when I watched the Karate Kid as a child I was practicing the Crane kick.  When I saw Rocky I was playing that Rocky Theme in my Walkman (haha) while exercising. Those movies inspired me, at least for a short while... to do something in real life.

Is it SOOO far fetched to think that SOME people can be similarly influenced by violent games, movies and shows?  I have never felt the compulsion to drink excessively but I understand that some people cannot just have 1 drink.  It affects each of us differently.

I have never felt the urge to pick up a gun or sword in real life to mow down people after playing a Battlefield game, but I am also not arrogant enough to project my experience on the millions of other people playing.  After all... it's only a handful of those millions that do this.  There are roughly 131,000,000 people who have a firearm at home in the US.  Just a minuscule fraction of a percent of those are involved in a mass shooting.

There are over 200,000,000 people that play some kind of video game in the US (no idea what percent play violent games but lets be honest.. there are a lot). Is it so far fetched to believe that a minuscule fraction of those (same as above) could be influenced to act out some violent fantasy because they spent hours and hours murdering people in a video game?

I am not saying we should ban anything.  I am saying that we should not be so dismissive of looking into every cause.  We have a huge population.  It is literally a fraction of a fraction of a percent that commits these crimes.  I do know that movies have motivated me to do things or change behavior in real life.  I do not think it totally far fetched to believe that SOME people can be similarly swayed to act out violent fantasies.

Did you never watch a movie, TV show... or listen to some music and get inspired to do something?  Hopefully something good... but I think we have ALL been influenced by entertainment to some degree, haven't we?

I think your just reaching tbh, but i can imagine why, you need something to blame, to be able to point at something and say this is the problem and we need to fix it, video games aren't it though, neither is it the 'orange man bad' thing either. There is an ideology problem and some of it is imported, but there is a far left extremist problem too, and its only getting worse because most of them actually think anything to the right of karl marx is fascism, antifa, bamn, blm they are all just symptoms. Blaming video games is moral cowardice really, because its the easy option, and wrong.

Did you see me blame anything at all in my post?  I did not.  The reach was in your reply.  I said it is POSSIBLE that SOME small fraction of people could be influenced by violent movies, TV and games to commit violent acts.  To believe that there can be literally NO association for ANY person is IMHO utterly arrogant.

The trouble is you can also use the argument that some of them must have also gone to McDonalds and had happy meals and that 'might' have influenced them, though honestly with the composition of those things maybe there is a causational link. And no, there is no link between video games, or movies or tv dramas though maybe Dallas might be an exception, i mean, who shot JR! maybe that spurred someone to repeat it! 
There have been numerous scientific studies carried out, and they are conclusive, video games are not the problem, you can call me arrogant as much as you like, at least i am not engaging in moral cowardice.

I totally disagree.  I would say your moral cowardice comes because if in fact SOME people were influenced by OUR hobby WE might bear SOME responsibility for it. And your simple deflection of the conversation is enabling that.   So lets move past the judgment OK?  That YOU vs THEM idea is absolutely and undoubtedly a factor in this situation.  We need a lot less of that.

klash2def

@Arterius I never said not even once it was ONLY  Trump. Not once did I say it was ONLY him, I told you what I think it is. Please read what I wrote. I said it's a combination of the rise of White Nationalism, and his provoking of those type of people who share his ideology. THREE MASS SHOOTINGS this year have been announced on 8chan. A place where people who share his train of thought say things like "Hail Trump ". They practically worship him at that place and there is a reason for it. He is appealing to a certain type of person. 

He is absolutely part of it but HEY, I'll do you one even better, since you keep bringing him up to me, don't take my word for it, take his.  

• Trump launched his campaign in 2015 by calling Mexican immigrants “rapists” who are “bringing crime” and “bringing drugs” to the US. His campaign was largely built on building a wall to keep these immigrants out of the US

• As a candidate in 2015, Trump called for a ban on all Muslims coming into the US. His administration eventually implemented a significantly watered-down version of the policy.

• Trump has been repeatedly slow to condemn white supremacists who endorse him, and he regularly retweeted messages from white supremacists and neo-Nazis during his presidential campaign.

• At the 2016 Republican convention, Trump officially seized the mantle of the “law and order” candidate — an obvious dog whistle playing to white fears of black crime, even though crime in the US is historically low. His speeches, comments, and executive actions after he took office have continued this line of messaging.
  

• In a pitch to black voters in 2016, Trump said, “You’re living in poverty, your schools are no good, you have no jobs, 58 percent of your youth is unemployed. What the hell do you have to lose?”
  

• In the week after white supremacist protests in Charlottesville, Virginia, in August 2017, Trump repeatedly said that “many sides” and “both sides” were to blame for the violence and chaos that ensued — suggesting that the white supremacist protesters were morally equivalent to counterprotesters that stood against racism. He also said that there were “some very fine people” among the white supremacists. All of this seemed like a dog whistle to white supremacists — and many of them took it as one, with white nationalist Richard Spencer praising Trump for “defending the truth.”
  

• Throughout 2017, Trump repeatedly attacked NFL players who, by kneeling or otherwise silently protesting during the national anthem, demonstrated against systemic racism in America.
  

• Trump reportedly said in 2017 that people who came to the US from Haiti “all have AIDS,” and he lamented that people who came to the US from Nigeria would never “go back to their huts” once they saw America. The White House denied that Trump ever made these comments.
  

• Speaking about immigration in a bipartisan meeting in January 2018, Trump reportedly asked, in reference to Haiti and African countries, “Why are we having all these people from shithole countries come here?” He then reportedly suggested that the US should take more people from countries like Norway. The implication: Immigrants from predominantly white countries are good, while immigrants from predominantly black countries are bad.
  

• Trump denied making the “shithole” comments, although some senators present at the meeting said they happened. The White House, meanwhile, suggested that the comments, like Trump’s remarks about the NFL protests, will play well to his base. The only connection between Trump’s remarks about the NFL protests and his “shithole” comments is race.
  

I can make a book of things he's said that confirm what he is. If that's not enough here's a video:




I often see around these parts the argument of if he is racist or bigoted or that the word "Racist" means nothing anymore. I beg to differ. Racist means exactly what it means and the racist or bigoted argument is tremendously semantic. It’s basically asking the question: Is Trump racist or is he bigoted? But who gives a shit? Neither is a trait that anyone should want in a president. 

Just because race is a social construct, does not mean people’s views of race don’t have real effects on many people, which is why his comments are in fact racist. You also forget one key thing. The guy literally ran his entire campaign on bigotry. He knew who he was pandering to by giving a candidate to the many white Americans who harbor racial resentment.  So yes, racial attitudes were a big driver behind Trump’s election, just as they long have been for general beliefs about politics and policy.

Below is an excerpt from the NY Times:

"Meanwhile, white supremacist groups have openly embraced Trump. As Sarah Posner and David Neiwert reported at Mother Jones, what the media largely treated as gaffes — Trump retweeting white nationalists, Trump describing Mexican immigrants as “rapists” and criminals — were to white supremacists real signals approving of their racist causes. One white supremacist wrote, “Our Glorious Leader and ULTIMATE SAVIOR has gone full-wink-wink-wink to his most aggressive supporters.”

Some of them even argued that Trump has softened the greater public to their racist messaging. “The success of the Trump campaign just proves that our views resonate with millions,” said Rachel Pendergraft, a national organizer for the Knights Party, which succeeded David Duke’s Knights of the Ku Klux Klan. “They may not be ready for the Ku Klux Klan yet, but as anti-white hatred escalates, they will.”

And at the 2017 white supremacist protest in Charlottesville, David Duke, the former KKK grand wizard, said that the rally was meant “to fulfill the promises of Donald Trump.”

So while Trump may deny his racism and bigotry, at some level his supporters seem to get it. As much as his history of racism shows that he’s racist, perhaps who supported him and why is just as revealing — and it doesn’t paint a favorable picture for Trump."

Trump is simply unamerican. He has a very DEEP belief that if you arent what HE is, you aren't really an American. Even though America was built on the idea of freedom. Everyone here came on a boat which means technically we are all immigrants. Only the Natives can say their Ancestry is traced back to this land. 

He has a lack of knowledge of what America is all about. He is constantly trying to appeal to his narrow base of scared, older less-educated white Americans who see the world changing around them. Instead of explaining how the change is a great thing, he would rather stoke their fears. They eat up. I also believe the youth that worships him, the kids that hang out at 8chan, etc, are doing so because they have been indoctrinated and are looking for an outlet where they can share ideas with like-minded people. 

Here's what really strange, you say you don't support him but you constantly defend/excuse him.

Ungood

klash2def said:

Ungood said:

gunklacker said:

"Just like a Nuclear Warhead is neither good nor evil, it is just a thing, it is not the weapon that is the problem, it is who has it."

Nope your wrong a Nuclear Warhead is 1000% evil

We shall simply disagree, as a warhead is just an object and an object cannot be good or evil, anymore than a rock can be good or evil. For something to be evil, requires motive and intent, something that all objects lack.

Now.. you could argue that the motive behind making a Warhead is 1000% evil, that the need to have and build a weapon of such devastation is the apex of human evilness and insanity.. that could be its own great discussion. 

But one I have no intention of having.

Well, I don't think anyone here is saying objects can reason or make choices. You are basically saying the same thing he is saying if you take semantics out of it. The bottom line is what here? 

Yes we could argue that it is an issue of semantics, but I would wager it is not.

But keep in mind that Humans at one time thought Crossbows and Dynamite were far too "evil" (read: destructive/deadly) to exist, and should be eradicated.. how naive they were to not even realize that such things were megar stepping stones.. I wonder what the next tier of weapons will be for us.

Can you imagine in say 100 years, people looking back at our crude and archaic weapons and seeing how we fussed endlessly they were too deadly and dangerous, like we would look back upon the bow or dagger.

Sure, the bow and daggers ability to kill someone has not diminished since their inception, in fact, our technological advancements have made them even deadlier than they have ever been, but they have simply been outclassed by more modern weapons.

Same too I suppose will happen to all our currently modern weapons, such is the nature of our species.

Which is why it is pointless to say someTHING is evil, and instead focus on the person. 

The real question should be: Why are Humans so obsessed with killing each other, we have been such long before video games, will be such long after them.. we have killed with bombs, and when we didn't have bombs, we killed with guns, when we didn't have guns, we killed with knives, when we didn't have knives we killed with rocks.. it is not what is in our hand that is the problem... so we need to ask the hard question... what is the real problem?