How about criminal and villainous PKers being hunted down by NPC soldiers or assassins of whatever faction or factions with whom they've earned a significant amount of disfavor? What about the possibility of earning the wrath of certain deities (perhaps those worshiped by the player characters he or she has slain) and being hounded by supernatural subordinates of those deities?
If the NPC soldier can't stop the PKers, that'll defeat the purpose and won't deter PK.
If the NPC actually stopped the PKERs, that just make the zone a safe zone, and also make ganking pointless.
If it is something in between, a weak NPC soldier can constantly follow the ganker around and weaken the ganker, that'll deter the ganker by making him more vulnerable to other player.
A prison system also sound fun. When a PKer died, he get sent to prison, and forced to mine for an hour before he can leave. (the person killed the ganker also get a portion of the mineral the ganker mined in prison) Alternatively the ganker can pay gold to leave the prison and the person killed the ganker can get a potion of the gold.
Prison, especially as you outlined it, does nothing to stop a PKer. And the point is to prevent the large number of PKers from constantly rolling players, and causing them to leave the game.
I think most games let you afk in the prison. If the penalty is harsher I think it can make PKing less rampart. That is why I suggest you have to actually do physical works(for example mining) in prison to get out.
There are also games that make ganker loss skill points or experience.
I think many people's argument against ganker is they have nothing to loss. So noobs and casuals are bitter they got griefed and even if the ganker died he can quickly replace his gear and keep griefing people.
Yes, time in prison can work to reduce players'willingness to PK. BUT that's if there are no "outs." Like I said, I have not seen a game with prison that didn't have "escape" as an out.
You'd need a healthy dose of time as punishment. With Alts, how effective can that be? I do like the idea of the labor producing something of value, and some of that going to the victims. The more victims the more labor required to get out. But if that labor reduces the time requirement to hours that don't equal punishment enough to cause the PKer to reflect on it's worth (PKing vs. prison it doesn't do the job.
I'd say forget the labor reduction and the time element involved, and just have the labor as punishment (with no way around it). That way the victims get something, and the PKer gets their punishment. But it needs to be boring time that's just not worth the PKing and looting. That could work. And be a pretty cool game system (except for PKers).
But then, they'd script it and it wouldn't work as a deterrent.
To me the point of prison is to give a win to the victims. Even I kill the random PK they just come right back. Lock their account in RT prison even if it's just 3 days or 72 hours. They can't repeat kill you or stalk you.
That is possible. It's certainly one way of trying to deal with the problem that might be effective.
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
Sovrath said: The first time I was killed by a player much higher than me I didn't leave because I knew that was part of the game. Had I not wanted that experience or better yet, known that was part of the experience I wouldn't have played the game.
This is spot on.
Now to be fair, a lot of players do not know what they are getting into when they see that the MMO has PvP in it, they are not sure how it will pan out, thus they very well may not have signed up for what happens, and when the PvP hits them in the face, they either like the way it works, opt out of the game quietly, or throw a tantrum on the forums/social media.
Now, a player like myself when I see PvP MMO, I will often times just stop reading and that game just died in a fire` to me. I often don't care if they claim they got it right, as the reality is, no they didn't, it's going to be the same unbalanced clusterfuck all the other one's before it were, and I would only look into those games if the PvP was totally optional. If I can't fully and totally opt out of the PvP I just suddenly stopped giving a fuck about everything else that game has going on for it.
and what really pisses me off, is if the game is a PvP MMO and they are not flat out blunt about that, like they try to hide that it is a PvP MMO, really? WTF, did you think that when I finally had someone gank me that I would be happy to discover that this shit show is a PvP game? Really? Man when developers do that shit, it's like they know their game is a soggy shit sandwich, and they have to lie about it dupe people into playing it at the start. I hate that shit soo much!
Now the flip side of that, is I love me some good PvP, but when I am looking for a PvP game, I could not give two flying shits about anything else, I don't want to hear about how much crafting, or house building, or whateverthehell that is not PvP in your game, unless, it involves the PvP. Like Fortnight for example, with their crafting/building systems, that work with the PvP.
But the reality is, when I log into a PvP game, I want to be given a reason and reward for killing the hell out of other players. I don't want to hear about what you are going to do to stop me, having some stupid point system, or whatever, either this is a PvP game or it is not, if the developers can't figure out what they are trying to make, I am not going to waste my time while they work that out.
Just my feels on things.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
However, that being said, if a PVP game makes it impossible for me to ever win, fight back, get even, or even destroy those who destroyed me in the past (or will require me to play several years of real time in order to accomplish any or all of these things), then I have to say it sucks. Certainly not a game I want to play. And my possibility of ever winning or getting revenge can't be dependent on how much money I'm willing to play in a cash shop. PVP + P2W = BS. IMHO.
That could go back to players understanding what type of game world they are in.
Again, let's use Lineage 2 (as it's the only ffa pvp game I've ever played in earnest) as an example.
There was a notorious red player called Evil Seed. he was pretty high level. And pretty much permanently red (and he actually pk'ed so much his name turned white and discovered a bug. "It was fixed."
He killed me several times and honestly there was no way my character would ever have been able to kill him. Do I quit? Do I rant? No.
I leveled like a mo fo. I got very high with the thought that I was going to get him some day. I didn't lament, I didn't complain, I understood that the game was made for players who wanted to become powerful. So I became powerful. Not THE most powerful but I felt good when entering a siege or pvp and knew I had a very good chance at surviving.
Did I ever get my (play) revenge? Nope. Found out he was banned for some reason. "oh well!"
But the point is that I understood the game world, how it works, what one must do to be successful. My choices were "it's not for me" and to move on" or "I'll just play my way and enjoy myself but know full well I'll never be competitive" or "I'll be competitive."
As players we have choices. One of them is "Do you want to be there?" If not then no skin off one's nose, uninstall and move on. Don't keep anger in your heart, don't hit the forums and rant and rave, acknowledge the game is not for one's self and move on.
If a game has a lot of grouping and one doesn't want to group then realize that and move on. If a game requires everyone to be a crafter and someone hates crafting they shouldn't play the game. Nothing forced, it's just the way the game world works.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I shouldn't be able to kill a player character more than once every 1-3 hours unless he/she is a wanted criminal or fighting on a designated battlefield/in a contested area (PVP zone).
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
However, that being said, if a PVP game makes it impossible for me to ever win, fight back, get even, or even destroy those who destroyed me in the past (or will require me to play several years of real time in order to accomplish any or all of these things), then I have to say it sucks. Certainly not a game I want to play. And my possibility of ever winning or getting revenge can't be dependent on how much money I'm willing to play in a cash shop. PVP + P2W = BS. IMHO.
That could go back to players understanding what type of game world they are in.
Again, let's use Lineage 2 (as it's the only ffa pvp game I've ever played in earnest) as an example.
There was a notorious red player called Evil Seed. he was pretty high level. And pretty much permanently red (and he actually pk'ed so much his name turned white and discovered a bug. "It was fixed."
He killed me several times and honestly there was no way my character would ever have been able to kill him. Do I quit? Do I rant? No.
I leveled like a mo fo. I got very high with the thought that I was going to get him some day. I didn't lament, I didn't complain, I understood that the game was made for players who wanted to become powerful. So I became powerful. Not THE most powerful but I felt good when entering a siege or pvp and knew I had a very good chance at surviving.
Did I ever get my (play) revenge? Nope. Found out he was banned for some reason. "oh well!"
But the point is that I understood the game world, how it works, what one must do to be successful. My choices were "it's not for me" and to move on" or "I'll just play my way and enjoy myself but know full well I'll never be competitive" or "I'll be competitive."
As players we have choices. One of them is "Do you want to be there?" If not then no skin off one's nose, uninstall and move on. Don't keep anger in your heart, don't hit the forums and rant and rave, acknowledge the game is not for one's self and move on.
If a game has a lot of grouping and one doesn't want to group then realize that and move on. If a game requires everyone to be a crafter and someone hates crafting they shouldn't play the game. Nothing forced, it's just the way the game world works.
I understand what you're saying Sovrath. But I want a Faction-based PVE/PVP Sandbox MMORPG that more people want to play. I want a game to be made that will appeal to and be fun for a wider audience. PVP MMORPGs are almost never (or maybe just never) as popular as PVE MMORPGs. And for good reason.
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
However, that being said, if a PVP game makes it impossible for me to ever win, fight back, get even, or even destroy those who destroyed me in the past (or will require me to play several years of real time in order to accomplish any or all of these things), then I have to say it sucks. Certainly not a game I want to play. And my possibility of ever winning or getting revenge can't be dependent on how much money I'm willing to play in a cash shop. PVP + P2W = BS. IMHO.
That could go back to players understanding what type of game world they are in.
Again, let's use Lineage 2 (as it's the only ffa pvp game I've ever played in earnest) as an example.
There was a notorious red player called Evil Seed. he was pretty high level. And pretty much permanently red (and he actually pk'ed so much his name turned white and discovered a bug. "It was fixed."
He killed me several times and honestly there was no way my character would ever have been able to kill him. Do I quit? Do I rant? No.
I leveled like a mo fo. I got very high with the thought that I was going to get him some day. I didn't lament, I didn't complain, I understood that the game was made for players who wanted to become powerful. So I became powerful. Not THE most powerful but I felt good when entering a siege or pvp and knew I had a very good chance at surviving.
Did I ever get my (play) revenge? Nope. Found out he was banned for some reason. "oh well!"
But the point is that I understood the game world, how it works, what one must do to be successful. My choices were "it's not for me" and to move on" or "I'll just play my way and enjoy myself but know full well I'll never be competitive" or "I'll be competitive."
As players we have choices. One of them is "Do you want to be there?" If not then no skin off one's nose, uninstall and move on. Don't keep anger in your heart, don't hit the forums and rant and rave, acknowledge the game is not for one's self and move on.
If a game has a lot of grouping and one doesn't want to group then realize that and move on. If a game requires everyone to be a crafter and someone hates crafting they shouldn't play the game. Nothing forced, it's just the way the game world works.
That's great. Really. Up until the game doesn't have enough financial support because of it, and can't maintain the game. Darkfall as a "recent" example comes to mind. Shadowbane was another. Although the PvPers that loved it claim it was because of bugs. Hmmm, why didn't those bugs get fixed? Not enough finances to make it happen, perchance?
How about criminal and villainous PKers being hunted down by NPC soldiers or assassins of whatever faction or factions with whom they've earned a significant amount of disfavor? What about the possibility of earning the wrath of certain deities (perhaps those worshiped by the player characters he or she has slain) and being hounded by supernatural subordinates of those deities?
I don't know, truly. Would it be enough to deter you?
Punishment needs to fit the crime. The PKer just took possible hours of gameplay from their victim. They need to suffer likewise, in my eyes. As long as PKers can keep playing the game, there is no punishment.
PS: Are you aware of the "quote" button? It's much easier to follow multiple conversations
But it's supposed to be "play" punishment.
If a game has player killing then it's meant to be there. I really like his suggestions as they fit with game play.
Because if a player is really to be punished then why have the feature at all? It would be far easier for developers to not have player killing.
The punishment should be enough to dissuade but not enough to seem like the developers are hitting the players' hands with a ruler. Because again, "don't include player killing" if that's the route they are to go.
Yes, we want to discourage players from endlessly abusing other players, but we don't want to discourage them from playing criminals or villains.
NPC or PC?
Why must players be villains and criminals to other players?
Why can't they be?
A skilled player is almost always going to be more challenging and unpredictable then an AI-controlled NPC or Mob.
Except many PvPers go after newbies and other soft targets. They don't want challenge, they want to crush the weak.
In Faction-based PVP with a system of Reputation/Renown/Infamy/Influence, it would matter whom you killed, where, when, and why. Players would be free to act like villains, criminals, and even murderous psychopaths, but they would have to deal with the consequences of their behavior. And some of those consequences could be very severe, depending on the faction to which a player character belonged. Player characters could gain such a bad reputation that they could even become faction-less (expelled from even lawful evil/neutral evil factions). At that point, they would have great difficulty in finding a safe haven and they could be killed with impunity by any other player characters.
And also, if I understand this correctly, the NPC/MOB Guardians of a realm they are trying to "attack." Correct? That game support for would be innocent targets seems very important.
Right.
I was going to say that a player character is usually going to be KOS by NPCs when entering the territory of an opposing/enemy faction anyway. But maybe a player character should be able to sneak in more easily until they gain too much Renown or Infamy? Disguises might also be possible.
But, yes, an extremely criminal or villainous player character should generally expect to be KOS when entering a the territory/province of a Faction with whom he/she has negative reputation. However, this also means that renowned heroic player characters should expect to be KOS when trying to enter the lands of their enemies.
Yes, of course, that Paladin should be KOS in evil lands.
Can you describe your idea of "guardians"? And "factions" too? Are they pretty much related to the deities? Do these factions have homelands or are they, like, temple/guild oriented?
No matter what your flavor, or what you seek, I hope you find a game to play and enjoy.
I might never like the kind of game that you enjoy, you might never like the kinds of games I enjoy, but my hope for all of you, it that you find a game that fits you.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
How about criminal and villainous PKers being hunted down by NPC soldiers or assassins of whatever faction or factions with whom they've earned a significant amount of disfavor? What about the possibility of earning the wrath of certain deities (perhaps those worshiped by the player characters he or she has slain) and being hounded by supernatural subordinates of those deities?
I don't know, truly. Would it be enough to deter you?
Punishment needs to fit the crime. The PKer just took possible hours of gameplay from their victim. They need to suffer likewise, in my eyes. As long as PKers can keep playing the game, there is no punishment.
PS: Are you aware of the "quote" button? It's much easier to follow multiple conversations
But it's supposed to be "play" punishment.
If a game has player killing then it's meant to be there. I really like his suggestions as they fit with game play.
Because if a player is really to be punished then why have the feature at all? It would be far easier for developers to not have player killing.
The punishment should be enough to dissuade but not enough to seem like the developers are hitting the players' hands with a ruler. Because again, "don't include player killing" if that's the route they are to go.
Yes, we want to discourage players from endlessly abusing other players, but we don't want to discourage them from playing criminals or villains.
NPC or PC?
Why must players be villains and criminals to other players?
Why can't they be?
A skilled player is almost always going to be more challenging and unpredictable then an AI-controlled NPC or Mob.
Except many PvPers go after newbies and other soft targets. They don't want challenge, they want to crush the weak.
In Faction-based PVP with a system of Reputation/Renown/Infamy/Influence, it would matter whom you killed, where, when, and why. Players would be free to act like villains, criminals, and even murderous psychopaths, but they would have to deal with the consequences of their behavior. And some of those consequences could be very severe, depending on the faction to which a player character belonged. Player characters could gain such a bad reputation that they could even become faction-less (expelled from even lawful evil/neutral evil factions). At that point, they would have great difficulty in finding a safe haven and they could be killed with impunity by any other player characters.
And also, if I understand this correctly, the NPC/MOB Guardians of a realm they are trying to "attack." Correct? That game support for would be innocent targets seems very important.
Right.
I was going to say that a player character is usually going to be KOS by NPCs when entering the territory of an opposing/enemy faction anyway. But maybe a player character should be able to sneak in more easily until they gain too much Renown or Infamy? Disguises might also be possible.
But, yes, an extremely criminal or villainous player character should generally expect to be KOS when entering a the territory/province of a Faction with whom he/she has negative reputation. However, this also means that renowned heroic player characters should expect to be KOS when trying to enter the lands of their enemies.
Yes, of course, that Paladin should be KOS in evil lands.
Can you describe your idea of "guardians"? And "factions" too? Are they pretty much related to the deities? Do these factions have homelands or are they, like, temple/guild oriented?
Which kind of guardians? You were the first one that mentioned guardians in relation to the gates.
Factions would generally be kingdoms, principalities, city-states, tribes ruled over by a chieftain. Of course, as I said before, I would like to have multiple factions within each race. So, for example, different human kingdoms of different alignments. There could smaller factions within kingdoms also. Religious orders, feudal lords and their personal armies, trade guilds, mercenary companies, bandit gangs, pirate crews, etc. More provinces and factions could be added after a game's initial launch. But I understand that the number of factions and provinces could be limited by budget and technical considerations. I don't think we're at the point where we could make an MMORPG with something like a fully-developed and detailed Forgotten Realms (Toril) or even just Faerun online. It might not be impossible, but it would probably require too much money and too much time to be developed right now.
The deities would be separate from the Factions, but particular Factions might be more or less favored by certain deities. There is the idea that deities increase or decrease in power based on their number of worshipers (provides them with greater or lesser spiritual energy).
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
No matter what your flavor, or what you seek, I hope you find a game to play and enjoy.
I might never like the kind of game that you enjoy, you might never like the kinds of games I enjoy, but my hope for all of you, it that you find a game that fits you.
Thanks. I have been trying to enjoy DDO. It's cool that it's more complex, has non-combat skills, and that it's more like P&P AD&D. But, to be honest, there's definitely some things I don't like it about it.
1) I feel no sense of mystery, wonder, excitement, or purpose. Choose which dungeon to play through, level, get more loot & gear, try not to die. Do more dungeons so I can do more dungeons. That seems to be about all the game is about right now.
2) I don't like the hybrid action system. It's difficult to keep my eye on the cool-down timers while I'm focusing on fighting. Too many skills for the somewhat action combat. To me, that was a bad design choice.
3) Basically it just feels like something to do right now. But I'm not having enough fun, not really excited about it. I could take it or leave it. If I was never able to play again, I wouldn't really care.
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
Who says that MMORPGs need to have huge power gaps between PCs (Player Characters)? Who says that MMORPGs require massively vertical progression? Why can't we have limited/realistic vertical progression? Who says MMORPGs need to be so gear-dependent? Why can't we only gain limited/realistic advantages from gear? Why can't magic and divine/infernal power have their limits? Why can't we also have some horizontal progression to unlock more options? Why can't we have other forms of progression besides those directly related to combat? Why can't we gain social, economic, political, and military ranks within a faction? Why can't Reputation/Renown/Infamy/Influence be major factors in an MMORPG?
Well, someone says it. It happens all the time and is quite a lucrative mechanic.
I'm not for "huge" power gaps, but rather for rewarding length of time playing the game
I'm not an "Everyone is and always should be equal in every way." kind of philosopher/gamer
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Sure, Boroimir attacked Frodo for the ring. Guess what happened? They had a great heart to heart and he stopped his attacks and ended dying to save Frodo's life. That doesn't translate to MMMORPGs, though I'd love to see it happen
If you're talking about the books, that is *not* what happened. Boromir psyched himself up with justification as to why he should be given the Ring, and then he tried to take it by force. This caused Frodo to put on the Ring and flee. After that, Frodo struck out on his own, only to be joined by Sam.
Boromir, after he stopped spazing out, realized what he had done and sacrificed himself to save Merry and Pippen from Orcs (he failed at that, BTW).
Thanks for that correction
(I think the point was made, though, however inaccurate.)
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
How about criminal and villainous PKers being hunted down by NPC soldiers or assassins of whatever faction or factions with whom they've earned a significant amount of disfavor? What about the possibility of earning the wrath of certain deities (perhaps those worshiped by the player characters he or she has slain) and being hounded by supernatural subordinates of those deities?
I don't know, truly. Would it be enough to deter you?
Punishment needs to fit the crime. The PKer just took possible hours of gameplay from their victim. They need to suffer likewise, in my eyes. As long as PKers can keep playing the game, there is no punishment.
PS: Are you aware of the "quote" button? It's much easier to follow multiple conversations
But it's supposed to be "play" punishment.
If a game has player killing then it's meant to be there. I really like his suggestions as they fit with game play.
Because if a player is really to be punished then why have the feature at all? It would be far easier for developers to not have player killing.
The punishment should be enough to dissuade but not enough to seem like the developers are hitting the players' hands with a ruler. Because again, "don't include player killing" if that's the route they are to go.
Yes, we want to discourage players from endlessly abusing other players, but we don't want to discourage them from playing criminals or villains.
NPC or PC?
Why must players be villains and criminals to other players?
Why can't they be?
A skilled player is almost always going to be more challenging and unpredictable then an AI-controlled NPC or Mob.
In this society of "victimhood", you want to put that in MMORPGs?
As I said to Iselin, I'm not against the idea, but wonder about the plausibility of it all.
PS: After more thought, I wanted to add... Unfortunately, your preferred desire (OWPvP) is ruined by others who don't want this for the same reasons. It is much like many old-school MMORPG players that want to play, but can't because it's been spoiled by others desiring something completely different.
I really do feel for you and would love to see you find an MMRPG home
Post edited by AlBQuirky on
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Yes, of course, that Paladin should be KOS in evil lands.
Can you describe your idea of "guardians"? And "factions" too? Are they pretty much related to the deities? Do these factions have homelands or are they, like, temple/guild oriented?
Which kind of guardians? You were the first one that mentioned guardians in relation to the gates.
Factions would generally be kingdoms, principalities, city-states, tribes ruled over by a chieftain. Of course, as I said before, I would like to have multiple factions within each race. So, for example, different human kingdoms of different alignments. There could smaller factions within kingdoms also. Religious orders, feudal lords and their personal armies, trade guilds, mercenary companies, bandit gangs, pirate crews, etc. More provinces and factions could be added after a game's initial launch. But I understand that the number of factions and provinces could be limited by budget and technical considerations. I don't think we're at the point where we could make an MMORPG with something like a fully-developed and detailed Forgotten Realms (Toril) or even just Faerun online. It might not be impossible, but it would probably require too much money and too much time to be developed right now.
The deities would be separate from the Factions, but particular Factions might be more or less favored by certain deities. There is the idea that deities increase or decrease in power based on their number of worshipers (provides them with greater or lesser spiritual energy).
I'm wondering about "Guardians": - What kind of NPCs and MOB types you see performing that task. - How guardians plays out, as wandering MOBs and city/kingdom guard patrols? Will there be "stations" (guard towers, airies, campsites, etc.) that a player can make a run to for help? A mix of both?
As far as Factions, that's fine. I'd suggest basic ruler factions as you stated, and then let players build their own faction mini-groups. (Thieves guilds, miners guild, deity cults, etc.) If your game has player construction beyond houses (groups, as in villages/cities/temple compounds) then they can build up your game's faction systems, and even offer a great deal of political game play.
I actually like big power gaps. Now I don't care if there is a huge gap between me and another player. But I do want a huge power gap between the character I was when I started and the character I after many days, weeks, months of successfully progressing.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Who says that MMORPGs need to have huge power gaps between PCs (Player Characters)? Who says that MMORPGs require massively vertical progression? Why can't we have limited/realistic vertical progression? Who says MMORPGs need to be so gear-dependent? Why can't we only gain limited/realistic advantages from gear? Why can't magic and divine/infernal power have their limits? Why can't we also have some horizontal progression to unlock more options? Why can't we have other forms of progression besides those directly related to combat? Why can't we gain social, economic, political, and military ranks within a faction? Why can't Reputation/Renown/Infamy/Influence be major factors in an MMORPG?
Well, someone says it. It happens all the time and is quite a lucrative mechanic.
I'm not for "huge" power gaps, but rather for rewarding length of time playing the game
I'm not an "Everyone is and always should be equal in every way." kind of philosopher/gamer
I don't want player characters to be absolutely equal. Some amount of limited vertical progression is realistic. People can better at things. But since there are certain limits to how powerful people can become in the real world. Based on their inborn attributes, aptitudes, and talents/gifts, I believe there should be limits in an MMORPG as well. Additionally, there is a limit to how much of an advantage gear, equipment, and items can give to people in the real world. Thus I believe advantages gained from these things should be limited in an MMORPG as well. Also, skill, proficiency, and frequency of practice/training/use should play a large role in how much advantage equipment can give to characters. In a medieval fantasy or sci-fi setting, there should be limits on how powerful magic, divine/infernal power, and technology can make a character. Fantasy worlds usually have a pantheon of gods, various supernatural entities, or some sort of supernatural forces. If there is not one infinite, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent deity ruling over a world/universe, then no deity, supernatural force, or supernatural power (such as magic) can be limitless in power.
There are other ways to reward players for length of play (money/time invested). As in the real world, player characters can earn social, economic, political, and military ranks in a faction or (possibly multiple factions) of their choice. Of course, in order to gain such ranks in more than one faction, then those factions could not be in opposition to each other and most likely must be closely aligned. However, in the kind of game I'm thinking of, alliances and enmities between factions could possibly change over time.
So, anyway, Reputation, Renown, Infamy, and Influence would be major factors and sources of power. Player characters should also be able to acquire property (land, animals, buildings, wagons, etc.) and NPC retainers/subordinates. A player should be able to buy or build or his/her own shop if desired.
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
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I actually like big power gaps. Now I don't care if there is a huge gap between me and another player. But I do want a huge power gap between the character I was when I started and the character I after many days, weeks, months of successfully progressing.
Ultimately I think it’s a basic necessity for any game claiming rpg-like status. The only time it’s a real problem is if a high level player can ruin a low level players game time (namely pvp) or if new players coming in late have no one else to play with.
Yes, of course, that Paladin should be KOS in evil lands.
Can you describe your idea of "guardians"? And "factions" too? Are they pretty much related to the deities? Do these factions have homelands or are they, like, temple/guild oriented?
Which kind of guardians? You were the first one that mentioned guardians in relation to the gates.
Factions would generally be kingdoms, principalities, city-states, tribes ruled over by a chieftain. Of course, as I said before, I would like to have multiple factions within each race. So, for example, different human kingdoms of different alignments. There could smaller factions within kingdoms also. Religious orders, feudal lords and their personal armies, trade guilds, mercenary companies, bandit gangs, pirate crews, etc. More provinces and factions could be added after a game's initial launch. But I understand that the number of factions and provinces could be limited by budget and technical considerations. I don't think we're at the point where we could make an MMORPG with something like a fully-developed and detailed Forgotten Realms (Toril) or even just Faerun online. It might not be impossible, but it would probably require too much money and too much time to be developed right now.
The deities would be separate from the Factions, but particular Factions might be more or less favored by certain deities. There is the idea that deities increase or decrease in power based on their number of worshipers (provides them with greater or lesser spiritual energy).
I'm wondering about "Guardians": - What kind of NPCs and MOB types you see performing that task. - How guardians plays out, as wandering MOBs and city/kingdom guard patrols? Will there be "stations" (guard towers, airies, campsites, etc.) that a player can make a run to for help? A mix of both?
As far as Factions, that's fine. I'd suggest basic ruler factions as you stated, and then let players build their own faction mini-groups. (Thieves guilds, miners guild, deity cults, etc.) If your game has player construction beyond houses (groups, as in villages/cities/temple compounds) then they can build up your game's faction systems, and even offer a great deal of political game play.
Good ideas, Amaranthar. City guards, scouts, patrols (some aerial), and wards. Plus guard towers, forts, walled towns/cities/settlements, castles, aeries, and campsites.
Yes, I would like players to be able to make their mini-factions within a larger NPC-controlled faction. Being able to build their own structures and own property would be very cool. I certainly want social status, economics, politics to be important in the game. Players should also be able to earn military ranks if they choose.
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
I actually like big power gaps. Now I don't care if there is a huge gap between me and another player. But I do want a huge power gap between the character I was when I started and the character I after many days, weeks, months of successfully progressing.
But there are other forms of power besides combat power.
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
I actually like big power gaps. Now I don't care if there is a huge gap between me and another player. But I do want a huge power gap between the character I was when I started and the character I after many days, weeks, months of successfully progressing.
Ultimately I think it’s a basic necessity for any game claiming rpg-like status. The only time it’s a real problem is if a high level player can ruin a low level players game time (namely pvp) or if new players coming in late have no one else to play with.
It's actually not a necessity for MMORPGs. There are other ways to progress besides acquiring more combat power (hp, mp, physical/mental attributes, stats related to combat, etc.). There can be a game with limited/realistic combat power gaps between veterans and noobs while still offering an advantage to those have played longer (invested more time and/or money). Horizontal progression could allow players to unlock more options for their characters while characters could achieve higher social, economic, political, and military ranks. Social status, wealth, political influence, and the number of NPC retainers/subordinates under a PC's command could be major factors in the game.
A game could also allow for skills, abilities, and talents to atrophy/regress if they are not used enough. Social status, wealth, political influence, and military rank could also be reduced or lost based on the player's decisions and actions. Levels of Reputation, Renown, Infamy, and Influence would be very important. Just as they are in the real world.
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
I actually like big power gaps. Now I don't care if there is a huge gap between me and another player. But I do want a huge power gap between the character I was when I started and the character I after many days, weeks, months of successfully progressing.
Personally, and as the most outspoken proponent of "lower power gaps", I am not saying that a maxed out character shouldn't be considerably more powerful than a newb.
It's a question of how much more powerful.
IN many games, if a maxed out character hits a mid level character, how many times over did they just kill that guy?
I actually like big power gaps. Now I don't care if there is a huge gap between me and another player. But I do want a huge power gap between the character I was when I started and the character I after many days, weeks, months of successfully progressing.
Personally, and as the most outspoken proponent of "lower power gaps", I am not saying that a maxed out character shouldn't be considerably more powerful than a newb.
It's a question of how much more powerful.
IN many games, if a maxed out character hits a mid level character, how many times over did they just kill that guy?
Right. Did my character just get killed/knocked out/incapacitated/made to hover at death's door or did my character get atomized. Can my character still get resurrected or did my character's soul get destroyed as well? Just how many hit points does my character's soul have anyway?
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
What if a player character needs to maintain at least some positive favor/reputation with a deity of the player's choice or else the character needs to spend some time in a sort of purgatory before the character can be resurrected? The length of time and number of duties/quests or w/e to be performed based on how far into the negative the character's favor has sunk with the character's principal deity?
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
I actually like big power gaps. Now I don't care if there is a huge gap between me and another player. But I do want a huge power gap between the character I was when I started and the character I after many days, weeks, months of successfully progressing.
Ultimately I think it’s a basic necessity for any game claiming rpg-like status. The only time it’s a real problem is if a high level player can ruin a low level players game time (namely pvp) or if new players coming in late have no one else to play with.
It's actually not a necessity for MMORPGs. There are other ways to progress besides acquiring more combat power (hp, mp, physical/mental attributes, stats related to combat, etc.). There can be a game with limited/realistic combat power gaps between veterans and noobs while still offering an advantage to those have played longer (invested more time and/or money). Horizontal progression could allow players to unlock more options for their characters while characters could achieve higher social, economic, political, and military ranks. Social status, wealth, political influence, and the number of NPC retainers/subordinates under a PC's command could be major factors in the game.
A game could also allow for skills, abilities, and talents to atrophy/regress if they are not used enough. Social status, wealth, political influence, and military rank could also be reduced or lost based on the player's decisions and actions. Levels of Reputation, Renown, Infamy, and Influence would be very important. Just as they are in the real world.
Character development is one of the backbones upon which role playing games were created. For mmorpgs the reason I feel it’s necessary is longevity of play. People tend to invest more time when it benefits them or they get something out if it and power is the most desirable. If the game does not have pvp then the size of the gap is almost irrelevant, but if it does then it shouldn’t be too big. Darkfall Online is a good example I like to give where the grind to high level was absolutely insane, but good players could do well with relatively young characters. Skip ahead to rise of Agon where they reduced the grind to a few weeks and people quickly stopped playing as much. Sure you can add more things to do, but intimately players lean toward becoming more powerful as the ultimate incentive to keep playing.
The gap in Darkfall was pretty big when comparing equally skilled players, but nothing like WoW or AA.
I actually like big power gaps. Now I don't care if there is a huge gap between me and another player. But I do want a huge power gap between the character I was when I started and the character I after many days, weeks, months of successfully progressing.
Ultimately I think it’s a basic necessity for any game claiming rpg-like status. The only time it’s a real problem is if a high level player can ruin a low level players game time (namely pvp) or if new players coming in late have no one else to play with.
It's actually not a necessity for MMORPGs. There are other ways to progress besides acquiring more combat power (hp, mp, physical/mental attributes, stats related to combat, etc.). There can be a game with limited/realistic combat power gaps between veterans and noobs while still offering an advantage to those have played longer (invested more time and/or money). Horizontal progression could allow players to unlock more options for their characters while characters could achieve higher social, economic, political, and military ranks. Social status, wealth, political influence, and the number of NPC retainers/subordinates under a PC's command could be major factors in the game.
A game could also allow for skills, abilities, and talents to atrophy/regress if they are not used enough. Social status, wealth, political influence, and military rank could also be reduced or lost based on the player's decisions and actions. Levels of Reputation, Renown, Infamy, and Influence would be very important. Just as they are in the real world.
Character development is one of the backbones upon which role playing games were created. For mmorpgs the reason I feel it’s necessary is longevity of play. People tend to invest more time when it benefits them or they get something out if it and power is the most desirable. If the game does not have pvp then the size of the gap is almost irrelevant, but if it does then it shouldn’t be too big. Darkfall Online is a good example I like to give where the grind to high level was absolutely insane, but good players could do well with relatively young characters. Skip ahead to rise of Agon where they reduced the grind to a few weeks and people quickly stopped playing as much. Sure you can add more things to do, but intimately players lean toward becoming more powerful as the ultimate incentive to keep playing.
Why must combat power be the end-all be-all in an MMORPG?
If players benefit from other forms of power in a game, and the systems in which those powers are used are interesting/intriguing/exciting, then players should be able to adjust their mindset. Besides, it doesn't seem like any MMORPG has ever tried to do exactly what I'm talking about.
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
Comments
Now to be fair, a lot of players do not know what they are getting into when they see that the MMO has PvP in it, they are not sure how it will pan out, thus they very well may not have signed up for what happens, and when the PvP hits them in the face, they either like the way it works, opt out of the game quietly, or throw a tantrum on the forums/social media.
Now, a player like myself when I see PvP MMO, I will often times just stop reading and that game just died in a fire` to me. I often don't care if they claim they got it right, as the reality is, no they didn't, it's going to be the same unbalanced clusterfuck all the other one's before it were, and I would only look into those games if the PvP was totally optional. If I can't fully and totally opt out of the PvP I just suddenly stopped giving a fuck about everything else that game has going on for it.
and what really pisses me off, is if the game is a PvP MMO and they are not flat out blunt about that, like they try to hide that it is a PvP MMO, really? WTF, did you think that when I finally had someone gank me that I would be happy to discover that this shit show is a PvP game? Really? Man when developers do that shit, it's like they know their game is a soggy shit sandwich, and they have to lie about it dupe people into playing it at the start. I hate that shit soo much!
Now the flip side of that, is I love me some good PvP, but when I am looking for a PvP game, I could not give two flying shits about anything else, I don't want to hear about how much crafting, or house building, or whateverthehell that is not PvP in your game, unless, it involves the PvP. Like Fortnight for example, with their crafting/building systems, that work with the PvP.
But the reality is, when I log into a PvP game, I want to be given a reason and reward for killing the hell out of other players. I don't want to hear about what you are going to do to stop me, having some stupid point system, or whatever, either this is a PvP game or it is not, if the developers can't figure out what they are trying to make, I am not going to waste my time while they work that out.
Just my feels on things.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I understand what you're saying Sovrath. But I want a Faction-based PVE/PVP Sandbox MMORPG that more people want to play. I want a game to be made that will appeal to and be fun for a wider audience. PVP MMORPGs are almost never (or maybe just never) as popular as PVE MMORPGs. And for good reason.
Up until the game doesn't have enough financial support because of it, and can't maintain the game. Darkfall as a "recent" example comes to mind.
Shadowbane was another. Although the PvPers that loved it claim it was because of bugs. Hmmm, why didn't those bugs get fixed? Not enough finances to make it happen, perchance?
Once upon a time....
Yes, of course, that Paladin should be KOS in evil lands.
Can you describe your idea of "guardians"?
And "factions" too?
Are they pretty much related to the deities? Do these factions have homelands or are they, like, temple/guild oriented?
Once upon a time....
No matter what your flavor, or what you seek, I hope you find a game to play and enjoy.
I might never like the kind of game that you enjoy, you might never like the kinds of games I enjoy, but my hope for all of you, it that you find a game that fits you.
I'm not for "huge" power gaps, but rather for rewarding length of time playing the game
I'm not an "Everyone is and always should be equal in every way." kind of philosopher/gamer
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
(I think the point was made, though, however inaccurate.)
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
As I said to Iselin, I'm not against the idea, but wonder about the plausibility of it all.
PS: After more thought, I wanted to add...
Unfortunately, your preferred desire (OWPvP) is ruined by others who don't want this for the same reasons. It is much like many old-school MMORPG players that want to play, but can't because it's been spoiled by others desiring something completely different.
I really do feel for you and would love to see you find an MMRPG home
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
- What kind of NPCs and MOB types you see performing that task.
- How guardians plays out, as wandering MOBs and city/kingdom guard patrols? Will there be "stations" (guard towers, airies, campsites, etc.) that a player can make a run to for help? A mix of both?
As far as Factions, that's fine. I'd suggest basic ruler factions as you stated, and then let players build their own faction mini-groups. (Thieves guilds, miners guild, deity cults, etc.)
If your game has player construction beyond houses
(groups, as in villages/cities/temple compounds)
then they can build up your game's faction systems, and even offer a great deal of political game play.
Once upon a time....
But there are other forms of power besides combat power.
It's a question of how much more powerful.
IN many games, if a maxed out character hits a mid level character, how many times over did they just kill that guy?
Once upon a time....
Right. Did my character just get killed/knocked out/incapacitated/made to hover at death's door or did my character get atomized. Can my character still get resurrected or did my character's soul get destroyed as well? Just how many hit points does my character's soul have anyway?
The gap in Darkfall was pretty big when comparing equally skilled players, but nothing like WoW or AA.