Are you suggesting that I've never in my entire been an AD&D DM? And, hey, if a player wants to be a total ***hole, I always have the option of ruthlessly and mercilessly killing their character. Then having their equipment stolen/destroyed and/or their character's body eaten. See if your jerk of a cleric/first-aid kit buddy can resurrect the ogre dung later. Haha!
And what would "ruthlessly and mercilessly killing their character" as the DM accomplish, well beyond prove that you were just as much a vindictive and oppressive asshole as they were.
Also, Just FYI, for any kind of Raise Dead spell to work AD&D, the recipient needs to be willing, so the player could simply say "I decline" and walk away from your table, justifiably calling you the Asshole, because in short, you were.
See, regardless of how happy or justified that might make you feel, the Truth is, if you have to play some God Mode and break the rules because you didn't like the way they acted, that would make you, in short, a bad DM, and the asshole at the table.
See, dealing with an asshole at the table is not fun for anyone, regardless if they are the players or the DM's.
While in an MMO, there is a direct sense of fairness to all the players, The Dev's set down universal rules, that both the raging asshat and the thespian role player have to function under.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Are you suggesting that I've never in my entire been an AD&D DM? And, hey, if a player wants to be a total ***hole, I always have the option of ruthlessly and mercilessly killing their character. Then having their equipment stolen/destroyed and/or their character's body eaten. See if your jerk of a cleric/first-aid kit buddy can resurrect the ogre dung later. Haha!
And what would "ruthlessly and mercilessly killing their character" as the DM accomplish, well beyond prove that you were just as much a vindictive and oppressive asshole as they were.
Also, Just FYI, for any kind of Raise Dead spell to work AD&D, the recipient needs to be willing, so the player could simply say "I decline" and walk away from your table, justifiably calling you the Asshole, because in short, you were.
See, regardless of how happy or justified that might make you feel, the Truth is, if you have to play some God Mode and break the rules because you didn't like the way they acted, that would make you, in short, a bad DM, and the asshole at the table.
See, dealing with an asshole at the table is not fun for anyone, regardless if they are the players or the DM's.
While in an MMO, there is a direct sense of fairness to all the players, The Dev's set down universal rules, that both the raging asshat and the thespian role player have to function under.
How is allowing a 20th level Ogre, or a pack of 20th level Ogres, to rampage through Waterdeep and destroy the third brothel the Lecherous Warrior and Irresponsible First-Aid Kit/Priest have chosen to visit for the night (whilst the Dedicated Mage and Valiant Rogue heroically attempt to investigate a dangerous crypt on their own), playing God Mode in any way, shape, or form?
Post edited by Ancient_Exile on
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
Are you suggesting that I've never in my entire been an AD&D DM? And, hey, if a player wants to be a total ***hole, I always have the option of ruthlessly and mercilessly killing their character. Then having their equipment stolen/destroyed and/or their character's body eaten. See if your jerk of a cleric/first-aid kit buddy can resurrect the ogre dung later. Haha!
And what would "ruthlessly and mercilessly killing their character" as the DM accomplish, well beyond prove that you were just as much a vindictive and oppressive asshole as they were.
Also, Just FYI, for any kind of Raise Dead spell to work AD&D, the recipient needs to be willing, so the player could simply say "I decline" and walk away from your table, justifiably calling you the Asshole, because in short, you were.
See, regardless of how happy or justified that might make you feel, the Truth is, if you have to play some God Mode and break the rules because you didn't like the way they acted, that would make you, in short, a bad DM, and the asshole at the table.
See, dealing with an asshole at the table is not fun for anyone, regardless if they are the players or the DM's.
While in an MMO, there is a direct sense of fairness to all the players, The Dev's set down universal rules, that both the raging asshat and the thespian role player have to function under.
How is allowing a 20th level Ogre, or a pack of 20th level Ogres, to rampage through Waterdeep and destroy the third brothel the Lecherous Warrior and Irresponsible First-Aid Kit/Priest have chosen to visit for the night (whilst the Dedicated Mage and Valiant Rogue heroically attempt to investigate a dangerous crypt on their own), playing God Mode in any way, shape, or form?
Does your Waterdeep have a military presence at all? Or are they typical NPCs and wait for "the players" to do their jobs for them? Why did that/those Ogres suddenly attack? Where is "the realism" here?
Your D&D vs MMO example is way off. One DM can easily handle 4 to 8 players at a table where physical presence is very much in attendance. Try handling thousands of players that aren't even there. Not even comparable.
PS: A good DM is a referee, not a God. They are there for the players, not themselves only. If players want to do something, a good DM figures out how to let it happen and fit in, not deny. D&D is "communal storytelling", not "a DM telling their own story."
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Are you suggesting that I've never in my entire been an AD&D DM? And, hey, if a player wants to be a total ***hole, I always have the option of ruthlessly and mercilessly killing their character. Then having their equipment stolen/destroyed and/or their character's body eaten. See if your jerk of a cleric/first-aid kit buddy can resurrect the ogre dung later. Haha!
And what would "ruthlessly and mercilessly killing their character" as the DM accomplish, well beyond prove that you were just as much a vindictive and oppressive asshole as they were.
Also, Just FYI, for any kind of Raise Dead spell to work AD&D, the recipient needs to be willing, so the player could simply say "I decline" and walk away from your table, justifiably calling you the Asshole, because in short, you were.
See, regardless of how happy or justified that might make you feel, the Truth is, if you have to play some God Mode and break the rules because you didn't like the way they acted, that would make you, in short, a bad DM, and the asshole at the table.
See, dealing with an asshole at the table is not fun for anyone, regardless if they are the players or the DM's.
While in an MMO, there is a direct sense of fairness to all the players, The Dev's set down universal rules, that both the raging asshat and the thespian role player have to function under.
How is allowing a 20th level Ogre, or a pack of 20th level Ogres, to rampage through Waterdeep and destroy the third brothel the Lecherous Warrior and Irresponsible First-Aid Kit/Priest have chosen to visit for the night (whilst the Dedicated Mage and Valiant Rogue heroically attempt to investigate a dangerous crypt on their own), playing God Mode in any way, shape, or form?
Does your Waterdeep have a military presence at all? Or are they typical NPCs and wait for "the players" to do their jobs for them? Why did that/those Ogres suddenly attack? Where is "the realism" here?
Your D&D vs MMO example is way off. One DM can easily handle 4 to 8 players at a table where physical presence is very much in attendance. Try handling thousands of players that aren't even there. Not even comparable.
PS: A good DM is a referee, not a God. They are there for the players, not themselves only. If players want to do something, a good DM figures out how to let it happen and fit in, not deny. D&D is "communal storytelling", not "a DM telling their own story."
Oh, forgot to mention the Red Dragon and the Undead Horde (led by a powerful Lich) which just so happened to attack the City of Splendors at the same time.
No, honestly, I was not being totally serious. Sadly, I never did that to the Crown of the North nor the characters of any players in an AD&D campaign.
You're right that DMs can allow players to do something if they feel like it. But sometimes, in the interest of time, a DM might not want to allow the players to spend a few hours of the gaming session getting drunk, gambling, and/or womanizing. Of course, the DM might be willing to allow a half hour or so of those activities, then introduce an NPC or something which nudges the players back towards the adventure which the DM had planned.
One of the first steps to handling thousands of players is having Law & Order with Justice systems in the civilized provinces/territories/zones/areas of the game world. NPCs can be programmed to meet out negative consequences/punishments. NPCs can also protect players as well. But the main purpose of NPCs doesn't need to be to hand out rewards.
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
PS: A good DM is a referee, not a God. They are there for the players, not themselves only.
This is a good point.
And the fact that the "GM" is there for the players becomes an exponentially larger point of note, when it comes to MMO's and the players are paying to be sitting at that table, and this is the Dev's full time job.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Are you suggesting that I've never in my entire been an AD&D DM? And, hey, if a player wants to be a total ***hole, I always have the option of ruthlessly and mercilessly killing their character. Then having their equipment stolen/destroyed and/or their character's body eaten. See if your jerk of a cleric/first-aid kit buddy can resurrect the ogre dung later. Haha!
And what would "ruthlessly and mercilessly killing their character" as the DM accomplish, well beyond prove that you were just as much a vindictive and oppressive asshole as they were.
Also, Just FYI, for any kind of Raise Dead spell to work AD&D, the recipient needs to be willing, so the player could simply say "I decline" and walk away from your table, justifiably calling you the Asshole, because in short, you were.
See, regardless of how happy or justified that might make you feel, the Truth is, if you have to play some God Mode and break the rules because you didn't like the way they acted, that would make you, in short, a bad DM, and the asshole at the table.
See, dealing with an asshole at the table is not fun for anyone, regardless if they are the players or the DM's.
While in an MMO, there is a direct sense of fairness to all the players, The Dev's set down universal rules, that both the raging asshat and the thespian role player have to function under.
How is allowing a 20th level Ogre, or a pack of 20th level Ogres, to rampage through Waterdeep and destroy the third brothel the Lecherous Warrior and Irresponsible First-Aid Kit/Priest have chosen to visit for the night (whilst the Dedicated Mage and Valiant Rogue heroically attempt to investigate a dangerous crypt on their own), playing God Mode in any way, shape, or form?
So you have 4 players at the table, now, unless that cleric and warrior were epic level characters and assuming these were not your friends, and you did not care if they left, You just lost half your group because you are a bad DM. The players that left tell everyone else that they left because of your total incompetence to gauge encounters, threw monsters at them that were way over their power level and that you suck as a DM.
So when you look for more people to fill your table again, The other players check this out, and well, it's legit, that is exactly what you did, now, Suddenly, no one wants to sit at the table with you, because, well, you don't know how to gage encounters which makes you a bad DM, or worse, you were just being a raging asshole to your players, neither is a good look for a DM.
In short time your dedicated mage and valiant rogue realize that they are the only people playing in your game, and move on to a more active DM table, where they get to play with other people, because, well you have a bad reputation as a DM.
Now, if you were doing that for free for the giggles of it, no loss on your part, if those players were paying to be at your table and that was how you were paying your rent each month, well, you just screwed yourself over.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
PS: A good DM is a referee, not a God. They are there for the players, not themselves only.
This is a good point.
And the fact that the "GM" is there for the players becomes an exponentially larger point of note, when it comes to MMO's and the players are paying to be sitting at that table, and this is the Dev's full time job.
Playing Tabletop RPGs isn't necessarily free either. Unless players expect the DM/GM to buy all the rulebooks, dice, and w/e else the group uses during gaming sessions. Of course, it's still not free for the DM/GM in that case. Especially if he or she doesn't have enough time to design his/her own adventures or campaigns and therefore needs to buy premade modules.
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
This is my whole point of saying that every feature, everything that is put into the game, should be a viable and encouraged part of the game.
If you put something into the game, that you need to discourage people from doing, then you did it wrong.
And this transcends whatever the feature is, if you don't want players killing or attacking specific NPC's simply remove their ability to do.
Putting in the feature and then seeking to discourage the use of this feature, is, in short, at the very least, double the work of a developer, as that they need to put in the mechanic, then need to put in another mechanic to discourage the first mechanic.
Just think about that for a bit.
Viable, certainly. Encouraged, I'm not so sure. Players should be made aware of what they can do. Once in the know they can probably find something motivating on their own.
I don't agree that putting in a discouraged behaviour is wrong, per se, so long as the expected consequence comes packaged with.
For example, if a player wishes they can make a thief in ESO and level up entirely through criminal acts against NPC victims, with potential consequences if caught in the act. If swift and appropriately skilled the thief may able to evade reprisal, and sell off those hot goods to a fence for a tidy profit.
Necromancers need only use some of their spells in the sight of authorities to draw a rather negative response from them as they are seen to be so nefarious they are illegal.
These kind of play opportunities are enhanced by allowing discouraged behaviour with potential repercussion. I think they would be rather anemic without.
Of course you know about these elements in ESO already, so the detail is for other forum readers who may not be familiar.
This is my whole point of saying that every feature, everything that is put into the game, should be a viable and encouraged part of the game.
If you put something into the game, that you need to discourage people from doing, then you did it wrong.
And this transcends whatever the feature is, if you don't want players killing or attacking specific NPC's simply remove their ability to do.
Putting in the feature and then seeking to discourage the use of this feature, is, in short, at the very least, double the work of a developer, as that they need to put in the mechanic, then need to put in another mechanic to discourage the first mechanic.
Just think about that for a bit.
Viable, certainly. Encouraged, I'm not so sure. Players should be made aware of what they can do. Once in the know they can probably find something motivating on their own.
I don't agree that putting in a discouraged behaviour is wrong, per se, so long as the expected consequence comes packaged with.
For example, if a player wishes they can make a thief in ESO and level up entirely through criminal acts against NPC victims, with potential consequences if caught in the act. If swift and appropriately skilled the thief may able to evade reprisal, and sell off those hot goods to a fence for a tidy profit.
Necromancers need only use some of their spells in the sight of authorities to draw a rather negative response from them as they are seen to be so nefarious they are illegal.
These kind of play opportunities are enhanced by allowing discouraged behaviour with potential repercussion. I think they would be rather anemic without.
Of course you know about these elements in ESO already, so the detail is for other forum readers who may not be familiar.
That's really fascinating. I played a Templar, and not for very long, so, I had no idea about that.
I mean, the necro thing is a real twist, because in most games, being a necro is just a class choice, and part of the game world.
Did they make it so you needed to find some hidden arcane order and do a whole quest line series (that potentially explains the history of Necromancy in the game and why it is persecuted) to prove your worth to join it, to be allowed to learn the art of necromancy?
Or perhaps need to find a hidden Thieves guild, that will the Shadow Arts, and the guild moves around randomly, but leaves out clues where it is located currently, that only players with "Thief" skills would be able to figure out.
That.. Now.. that would be some cool roleplay features for an MMO.
That kind of stuff is a million times better than any PvP BS that people would put in.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Are you suggesting that I've never in my entire been an AD&D DM? And, hey, if a player wants to be a total ***hole, I always have the option of ruthlessly and mercilessly killing their character. Then having their equipment stolen/destroyed and/or their character's body eaten. See if your jerk of a cleric/first-aid kit buddy can resurrect the ogre dung later. Haha!
And what would "ruthlessly and mercilessly killing their character" as the DM accomplish, well beyond prove that you were just as much a vindictive and oppressive asshole as they were.
Also, Just FYI, for any kind of Raise Dead spell to work AD&D, the recipient needs to be willing, so the player could simply say "I decline" and walk away from your table, justifiably calling you the Asshole, because in short, you were.
See, regardless of how happy or justified that might make you feel, the Truth is, if you have to play some God Mode and break the rules because you didn't like the way they acted, that would make you, in short, a bad DM, and the asshole at the table.
See, dealing with an asshole at the table is not fun for anyone, regardless if they are the players or the DM's.
While in an MMO, there is a direct sense of fairness to all the players, The Dev's set down universal rules, that both the raging asshat and the thespian role player have to function under.
How is allowing a 20th level Ogre, or a pack of 20th level Ogres, to rampage through Waterdeep and destroy the third brothel the Lecherous Warrior and Irresponsible First-Aid Kit/Priest have chosen to visit for the night (whilst the Dedicated Mage and Valiant Rogue heroically attempt to investigate a dangerous crypt on their own), playing God Mode in any way, shape, or form?
So you have 4 players at the table, now, unless that cleric and warrior were epic level characters and assuming these were not your friends, and you did not care if they left, You just lost half your group because you are a bad DM. The players that left tell everyone else that they left because of your total incompetence to gauge encounters, threw monsters at them that were way over their power level and that you suck as a DM.
So when you look for more people to fill your table again, The other players check this out, and well, it's legit, that is exactly what you did, now, Suddenly, no one wants to sit at the table with you, because, well, you don't know how to gage encounters which makes you a bad DM, or worse, you were just being a raging asshole to your players, neither is a good look for a DM.
In short time your dedicated mage and valiant rogue realize that they are the only people playing in your game, and move on to a more active DM table, where they get to play with other people, because, well you have a bad reputation as a DM.
Now, if you were doing that for free for the giggles of it, no loss on your part, if those players were paying to be at your table and that was how you were paying your rent each month, well, you just screwed yourself over.
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
This is my whole point of saying that every feature, everything that is put into the game, should be a viable and encouraged part of the game.
If you put something into the game, that you need to discourage people from doing, then you did it wrong.
And this transcends whatever the feature is, if you don't want players killing or attacking specific NPC's simply remove their ability to do.
Putting in the feature and then seeking to discourage the use of this feature, is, in short, at the very least, double the work of a developer, as that they need to put in the mechanic, then need to put in another mechanic to discourage the first mechanic.
Just think about that for a bit.
Viable, certainly. Encouraged, I'm not so sure. Players should be made aware of what they can do. Once in the know they can probably find something motivating on their own.
I don't agree that putting in a discouraged behaviour is wrong, per se, so long as the expected consequence comes packaged with.
For example, if a player wishes they can make a thief in ESO and level up entirely through criminal acts against NPC victims, with potential consequences if caught in the act. If swift and appropriately skilled the thief may able to evade reprisal, and sell off those hot goods to a fence for a tidy profit.
Necromancers need only use some of their spells in the sight of authorities to draw a rather negative response from them as they are seen to be so nefarious they are illegal.
These kind of play opportunities are enhanced by allowing discouraged behaviour with potential repercussion. I think they would be rather anemic without.
Of course you know about these elements in ESO already, so the detail is for other forum readers who may not be familiar.
That's really fascinating. I played a Templar, and not for very long, so, I had no idea about that.
I mean, the necro thing is a real twist, because in most games, being a necro is just a class choice, and part of the game world.
Did they make it so you needed to find some hidden arcane order and do a whole quest line series (that potentially explains the history of Necromancy in the game and why it is persecuted) to prove your worth to join it, to be allowed to learn the art of necromancy?
Or perhaps need to find a hidden Thieves guild, that will the Shadow Arts, and the guild moves around randomly, but leaves out clues where it is located currently, that only players with "Thief" skills would be able to figure out.
That.. Now.. that would be some cool roleplay features for an MMO.
That kind of stuff is a million times better than any PvP BS that people would put in.
For the necromancer, it is simply a class choice. I am not aware of any in game organization specifically devoted to them but I haven't really explored them. I wouldn't be surprised if such were to be added given the below.
One need not join the Thieves Guild to engage in criminal activity, but one does exist for those that wish to go that route. However, to do so requires a subscription or directly purchasing access to that content. This allows characters to lone wolf or take part in organized crime.
There is also the Dark Brotherhood, accessed in the same manner as the Thieved Guild, for those that wish to follow the murky path of killer for hire. Both it and the above mentioned Thieves Guild have abilities one can learn only by being part of them, and various game content specific to their members.
I forgot to mention that both the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood must be joined through play. I haven't joined either myself but I'm sure doing so requires related in game effort to gain the trust of either before they let you in the club.
This is my whole point of saying that every feature, everything that is put into the game, should be a viable and encouraged part of the game.
If you put something into the game, that you need to discourage people from doing, then you did it wrong.
And this transcends whatever the feature is, if you don't want players killing or attacking specific NPC's simply remove their ability to do.
Putting in the feature and then seeking to discourage the use of this feature, is, in short, at the very least, double the work of a developer, as that they need to put in the mechanic, then need to put in another mechanic to discourage the first mechanic.
Just think about that for a bit.
Viable, certainly. Encouraged, I'm not so sure. Players should be made aware of what they can do. Once in the know they can probably find something motivating on their own.
I don't agree that putting in a discouraged behaviour is wrong, per se, so long as the expected consequence comes packaged with.
For example, if a player wishes they can make a thief in ESO and level up entirely through criminal acts against NPC victims, with potential consequences if caught in the act. If swift and appropriately skilled the thief may able to evade reprisal, and sell off those hot goods to a fence for a tidy profit.
Necromancers need only use some of their spells in the sight of authorities to draw a rather negative response from them as they are seen to be so nefarious they are illegal.
These kind of play opportunities are enhanced by allowing discouraged behaviour with potential repercussion. I think they would be rather anemic without.
Of course you know about these elements in ESO already, so the detail is for other forum readers who may not be familiar.
That's really fascinating. I played a Templar, and not for very long, so, I had no idea about that.
I mean, the necro thing is a real twist, because in most games, being a necro is just a class choice, and part of the game world.
Did they make it so you needed to find some hidden arcane order and do a whole quest line series (that potentially explains the history of Necromancy in the game and why it is persecuted) to prove your worth to join it, to be allowed to learn the art of necromancy?
Or perhaps need to find a hidden Thieves guild, that will the Shadow Arts, and the guild moves around randomly, but leaves out clues where it is located currently, that only players with "Thief" skills would be able to figure out.
That.. Now.. that would be some cool roleplay features for an MMO.
That kind of stuff is a million times better than any PvP BS that people would put in.
For the necromancer, it is simply a class choice. I am not aware of any in game organization specifically devoted to them but I haven't really explored them. I wouldn't be surprised if such were to be added given the below.
One need not join the Thieves Guild to engage in criminal activity, but one does exist for those that wish to go that route. However, to do so requires a subscription or directly purchasing access to that content. This allows characters to lone wolf or take part in organized crime.
There is also the Dark Brotherhood, accessed in the same manner as the Thieved Guild, for those that wish to follow the murky path of killer for hire. Both it and the above mentioned Thieves Guild have abilities one can learn only by being part of them, and various game content specific to their members.
I forgot to mention that both the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood must be joined through play. I haven't joined either myself but I'm sure doing so requires related in game effort to gain the trust of either before they let you in the club.
Ya know, what would be cool.
If you didn't start as a "Class".
Every MMO you just pick a class, and then jump into the game a full grown adult.
What if, you started as a commoner just coming of age, not a hero, not an adventurer, just some barely wet behind the ears generic nobody, one of the vast many faceless people in a city, that mull about their lives, and does not stand out from the many other NPC's in the area.
Then you have to do quests to prove your worth to join any of the "Class Guild" like for example, needing to prove your worth through a series of quests to join the Paladin's guild.
Maybe allow players to pick a "generic" background, like Farmer's child, ot Trade Apprentice (IE: Blacksmith, Baker, Leather worker, seamstress, etc), or child of manual laborer, (IE: Miner, Logger, Etc), or simply unknown/dead parents, IE: Orphan.
There would be no option for a rich parents or royal parents (even if they took the unknown), as rich children do not slog it in the streets with commoners looking to make their mark in the world by the edge of a sword, or die trying, as the "Die Trying" part of that is a real deterrent, as they already have wealth, so they are better off making their mark in the world with their parents money, not the power of their sword arm.
The game could be Conditional Perma-Death, to add some thrill and risk, This would function like DDO's hardcore system, if you died and no one could directly raise you, then you really died, make a new character, you're done. If you could get raised by another player, or perhaps item/ability/feat, like in DDO monks of high enough level and who have taken the correct traits, can have a Rise of the Phoenix ability, that allows them to self resurrect one time per rest in a dungeon. There is also something called a "Jibbers Blade" that allows a player to raise themselves as a undead wrathe for a short time, which is really handy for a cleric that can then raise the rest of the party. So if the party wipes, the cleric can come back, and raise everyone before their Unlife expires, and keep things going.
Might even sub just to try that Hardcore Server.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Every MMO you just pick a class, and then jump into the game a full grown adult.
What if, you started as a commoner just coming of age, not a hero, not an adventurer, just some barely wet behind the ears generic nobody, one of the vast many faceless people in a city, that mull about their lives, and does not stand out from the many other NPC's in the area.
Then you have to do quests to prove your worth to join any of the "Class Guild" like for example, needing to prove your worth through a series of quests to join the Paladin's guild.
Maybe allow players to pick a "generic" background, like Farmer's child, ot Trade Apprentice (IE: Blacksmith, Baker, Leather worker, seamstress, etc), or child of manual laborer, (IE: Miner, Logger, Etc), or simply unknown/dead parents, IE: Orphan.
There would be no option for a rich parents or royal parents (even if they took the unknown), as rich children do not slog it in the streets with commoners looking to make their mark in the world by the edge of a sword, or die trying, as the "Die Trying" part of that is a real deterrent, as they already have wealth, so they are better off making their mark in the world with their parents money, not the power of their sword arm.
The game could be Conditional Perma-Death, to add some thrill and risk, This would function like DDO's hardcore system, if you died and no one could directly raise you, then you really died, make a new character, you're done. If you could get raised by another player, or perhaps item/ability/feat, like in DDO monks of high enough level and who have taken the correct traits, can have a Rise of the Phoenix ability, that allows them to self resurrect one time per rest in a dungeon. There is also something called a "Jibbers Blade" that allows a player to raise themselves as a undead wrathe for a short time, which is really handy for a cleric that can then raise the rest of the party. So if the party wipes, the cleric can come back, and raise everyone before their Unlife expires, and keep things going.
Might even sub just to try that Hardcore Server.
Wouldn't be anything wrong with being able to rise into the ranks of nobility though. A certain progression path might end in the player being knighted.
I wouldn't have "Class Guilds" though. Just make it so the player has to find a mentor or a some kind of organization that provides training.
Becoming a fighter would be easy enough. Join the military or a mercenary band. Though a mercenary band might want a character to have some sort of at least rudimentary fighting ability first. (Which perhaps one could gain by brawling or hunting wild animals?) Though sometimes the willingness to learn might be enough.
Want to become a priest? Become an initiate at temple.
Want to become a mage? Seek out a mage who is willing to take on an apprentice.
Want to become a rogue? Start stealing. (Orphans might be forced to do so anyway.) Exploring the seedy part of town might also allow one to bump into an older thief who is willing to pass on the secrets of his trade if a character proves him or herself worthy. And there might also be a Thieves' Guild around if the player lives in a large enough city.
Becoming a Ranger or Paladin would be more difficult of course. With Paladin or Dark Knight being two of the most difficult classes to attain.
(I don't think being a Barbarian would be that difficult. Though the player would need to choose to start out in the village of a less civilized tribe. Or be part of a nomadic tribe. Actually though, I'm not sure if Barbarian should be an Adventurer Class or a Social Class.)
However, there could also be specialized wizard, priest, and rogue classes that had higher requirements to meet than the basic classes as well. Such as Illusionist, Druid, and Bard.
Post edited by Ancient_Exile on
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
For the necromancer, it is simply a class choice. I am not aware of any in game organization specifically devoted to them but I haven't really explored them. I wouldn't be surprised if such were to be added given the below.
One need not join the Thieves Guild to engage in criminal activity, but one does exist for those that wish to go that route. However, to do so requires a subscription or directly purchasing access to that content. This allows characters to lone wolf or take part in organized crime.
There is also the Dark Brotherhood, accessed in the same manner as the Thieved Guild, for those that wish to follow the murky path of killer for hire. Both it and the above mentioned Thieves Guild have abilities one can learn only by being part of them, and various game content specific to their members.
I forgot to mention that both the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood must be joined through play. I haven't joined either myself but I'm sure doing so requires related in game effort to gain the trust of either before they let you in the club.
I was recently reading some reviews of ESO. One player claimed that certain classes were not as good as others. (This becomes especially apparent in PVP.) He also claimed that one class could become better than another following an update. Finally he also claimed that there are only a certain amount of viable meta builds at end game.
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
So you have 4 players at the table, now, unless that cleric and warrior were epic level characters and assuming these were not your friends, and you did not care if they left, You just lost half your group because you are a bad DM. The players that left tell everyone else that they left because of your total incompetence to gauge encounters, threw monsters at them that were way over their power level and that you suck as a DM.
So when you look for more people to fill your table again, The other players check this out, and well, it's legit, that is exactly what you did, now, Suddenly, no one wants to sit at the table with you, because, well, you don't know how to gage encounters which makes you a bad DM, or worse, you were just being a raging asshole to your players, neither is a good look for a DM.
In short time your dedicated mage and valiant rogue realize that they are the only people playing in your game, and move on to a more active DM table, where they get to play with other people, because, well you have a bad reputation as a DM.
Now, if you were doing that for free for the giggles of it, no loss on your part, if those players were paying to be at your table and that was how you were paying your rent each month, well, you just screwed yourself over.
Actually, in reality, I'd probably allow the players to have their characters engage in drinking, gambling, and womanizing for an hour or so of Real Time before I began to subtly nudge them toward the adventure/scenario I had planned.
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
Every MMO you just pick a class, and then jump into the game a full grown adult.
What if, you started as a commoner just coming of age, not a hero, not an adventurer, just some barely wet behind the ears generic nobody, one of the vast many faceless people in a city, that mull about their lives, and does not stand out from the many other NPC's in the area.
Then you have to do quests to prove your worth to join any of the "Class Guild" like for example, needing to prove your worth through a series of quests to join the Paladin's guild.
Maybe allow players to pick a "generic" background, like Farmer's child, ot Trade Apprentice (IE: Blacksmith, Baker, Leather worker, seamstress, etc), or child of manual laborer, (IE: Miner, Logger, Etc), or simply unknown/dead parents, IE: Orphan.
There would be no option for a rich parents or royal parents (even if they took the unknown), as rich children do not slog it in the streets with commoners looking to make their mark in the world by the edge of a sword, or die trying, as the "Die Trying" part of that is a real deterrent, as they already have wealth, so they are better off making their mark in the world with their parents money, not the power of their sword arm.
The game could be Conditional Perma-Death, to add some thrill and risk, This would function like DDO's hardcore system, if you died and no one could directly raise you, then you really died, make a new character, you're done. If you could get raised by another player, or perhaps item/ability/feat, like in DDO monks of high enough level and who have taken the correct traits, can have a Rise of the Phoenix ability, that allows them to self resurrect one time per rest in a dungeon. There is also something called a "Jibbers Blade" that allows a player to raise themselves as a undead wrathe for a short time, which is really handy for a cleric that can then raise the rest of the party. So if the party wipes, the cleric can come back, and raise everyone before their Unlife expires, and keep things going.
Might even sub just to try that Hardcore Server.
Projoct: Gorgon has some elements of that. You basically start with a sword and basic attire. Any skill beyond that you must learn through discovery in the game world and then go through the effort to develop it.
Want to be a mage? Well, off you go to find out how, once you find out where.
I don't recall there being perma-death in the game, but there are some nasty curses that simply don't fade away with time but must instead be cured with in game effort.
For the necromancer, it is simply a class choice. I am not aware of any in game organization specifically devoted to them but I haven't really explored them. I wouldn't be surprised if such were to be added given the below.
One need not join the Thieves Guild to engage in criminal activity, but one does exist for those that wish to go that route. However, to do so requires a subscription or directly purchasing access to that content. This allows characters to lone wolf or take part in organized crime.
There is also the Dark Brotherhood, accessed in the same manner as the Thieved Guild, for those that wish to follow the murky path of killer for hire. Both it and the above mentioned Thieves Guild have abilities one can learn only by being part of them, and various game content specific to their members.
I forgot to mention that both the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood must be joined through play. I haven't joined either myself but I'm sure doing so requires related in game effort to gain the trust of either before they let you in the club.
I was recently reading some reviews of ESO. One player claimed that certain classes were not as good as others. (This becomes especially apparent in PVP.) He also claimed that one class could become better than another following an update. Finally he also claimed that there are only a certain amount of viable meta builds at end game.
I don't do PvP so can't speak from direct knowledge or experience. I do not that the mix of abilities and that can be concurrently brought to bear are numerous and diverse. One not only has access to class abilities but NPC guild ones as well, which increase in number as new ones are added over time. It is not surprising that the resulting PvP is not balanced to precision. If characters were simpler it would be a lot easier to balance them better, but the PvP experience would be more simplistic overall. It would depend on the prospective player as whether it is something they found appealing.
It's a living game. Classes get reworked. Sometimes that reworking causes a shift in relative power. I think that quite common in most games that aren't being run in maintenance build.
There is a perception that only certain builds are viable at the peak level of difficulty in the game. However, there is also a tendency for many at that level of play to consider only the pinnacle of performance to be viable. Regardless if it is true or not, anyone wishing to play at that level will likely have to dance to that tune.
Outside of that extreme anything is considered viable, so one need not worry about trying to conform to the expectations of others in the vast majority of play.
For the necromancer, it is simply a class choice. I am not aware of any in game organization specifically devoted to them but I haven't really explored them. I wouldn't be surprised if such were to be added given the below.
One need not join the Thieves Guild to engage in criminal activity, but one does exist for those that wish to go that route. However, to do so requires a subscription or directly purchasing access to that content. This allows characters to lone wolf or take part in organized crime.
There is also the Dark Brotherhood, accessed in the same manner as the Thieved Guild, for those that wish to follow the murky path of killer for hire. Both it and the above mentioned Thieves Guild have abilities one can learn only by being part of them, and various game content specific to their members.
I forgot to mention that both the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood must be joined through play. I haven't joined either myself but I'm sure doing so requires related in game effort to gain the trust of either before they let you in the club.
I was recently reading some reviews of ESO. One player claimed that certain classes were not as good as others. (This becomes especially apparent in PVP.) He also claimed that one class could become better than another following an update. Finally he also claimed that there are only a certain amount of viable meta builds at end game.
I don't do PvP so can't speak from direct knowledge or experience. I do not that the mix of abilities and that can be concurrently brought to bear are numerous and diverse. One not only has access to class abilities but NPC guild ones as well, which increase in number as new ones are added over time. It is not surprising that the resulting PvP is not balanced to precision. If characters were simpler it would be a lot easier to balance them better, but the PvP experience would be more simplistic overall. It would depend on the prospective player as whether it is something they found appealing.
It's a living game. Classes get reworked. Sometimes that reworking causes a shift in relative power. I think that quite common in most games that aren't being run in maintenance build.
There is a perception that only certain builds are viable at the peak level of difficulty in the game. However, there is also a tendency for many at that level of play to consider only the pinnacle of performance to be viable. Regardless if it is true or not, anyone wishing to play at that level will likely have to dance to that tune.
Outside of that extreme anything is considered viable, so one need not worry about trying to conform to the expectations of others in the vast majority of play.
Thanks for the insight.
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
Comments
Also, Just FYI, for any kind of Raise Dead spell to work AD&D, the recipient needs to be willing, so the player could simply say "I decline" and walk away from your table, justifiably calling you the Asshole, because in short, you were.
See, regardless of how happy or justified that might make you feel, the Truth is, if you have to play some God Mode and break the rules because you didn't like the way they acted, that would make you, in short, a bad DM, and the asshole at the table.
See, dealing with an asshole at the table is not fun for anyone, regardless if they are the players or the DM's.
While in an MMO, there is a direct sense of fairness to all the players, The Dev's set down universal rules, that both the raging asshat and the thespian role player have to function under.
How is allowing a 20th level Ogre, or a pack of 20th level Ogres, to rampage through Waterdeep and destroy the third brothel the Lecherous Warrior and Irresponsible First-Aid Kit/Priest have chosen to visit for the night (whilst the Dedicated Mage and Valiant Rogue heroically attempt to investigate a dangerous crypt on their own), playing God Mode in any way, shape, or form?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
And the fact that the "GM" is there for the players becomes an exponentially larger point of note, when it comes to MMO's and the players are paying to be sitting at that table, and this is the Dev's full time job.
So when you look for more people to fill your table again, The other players check this out, and well, it's legit, that is exactly what you did, now, Suddenly, no one wants to sit at the table with you, because, well, you don't know how to gage encounters which makes you a bad DM, or worse, you were just being a raging asshole to your players, neither is a good look for a DM.
In short time your dedicated mage and valiant rogue realize that they are the only people playing in your game, and move on to a more active DM table, where they get to play with other people, because, well you have a bad reputation as a DM.
Now, if you were doing that for free for the giggles of it, no loss on your part, if those players were paying to be at your table and that was how you were paying your rent each month, well, you just screwed yourself over.
Playing Tabletop RPGs isn't necessarily free either. Unless players expect the DM/GM to buy all the rulebooks, dice, and w/e else the group uses during gaming sessions. Of course, it's still not free for the DM/GM in that case. Especially if he or she doesn't have enough time to design his/her own adventures or campaigns and therefore needs to buy premade modules.
I mean, the necro thing is a real twist, because in most games, being a necro is just a class choice, and part of the game world.
Did they make it so you needed to find some hidden arcane order and do a whole quest line series (that potentially explains the history of Necromancy in the game and why it is persecuted) to prove your worth to join it, to be allowed to learn the art of necromancy?
Or perhaps need to find a hidden Thieves guild, that will the Shadow Arts, and the guild moves around randomly, but leaves out clues where it is located currently, that only players with "Thief" skills would be able to figure out.
That.. Now.. that would be some cool roleplay features for an MMO.
That kind of stuff is a million times better than any PvP BS that people would put in.
If you didn't start as a "Class".
Every MMO you just pick a class, and then jump into the game a full grown adult.
What if, you started as a commoner just coming of age, not a hero, not an adventurer, just some barely wet behind the ears generic nobody, one of the vast many faceless people in a city, that mull about their lives, and does not stand out from the many other NPC's in the area.
Then you have to do quests to prove your worth to join any of the "Class Guild" like for example, needing to prove your worth through a series of quests to join the Paladin's guild.
Maybe allow players to pick a "generic" background, like Farmer's child, ot Trade Apprentice (IE: Blacksmith, Baker, Leather worker, seamstress, etc), or child of manual laborer, (IE: Miner, Logger, Etc), or simply unknown/dead parents, IE: Orphan.
There would be no option for a rich parents or royal parents (even if they took the unknown), as rich children do not slog it in the streets with commoners looking to make their mark in the world by the edge of a sword, or die trying, as the "Die Trying" part of that is a real deterrent, as they already have wealth, so they are better off making their mark in the world with their parents money, not the power of their sword arm.
The game could be Conditional Perma-Death, to add some thrill and risk, This would function like DDO's hardcore system, if you died and no one could directly raise you, then you really died, make a new character, you're done. If you could get raised by another player, or perhaps item/ability/feat, like in DDO monks of high enough level and who have taken the correct traits, can have a Rise of the Phoenix ability, that allows them to self resurrect one time per rest in a dungeon. There is also something called a "Jibbers Blade" that allows a player to raise themselves as a undead wrathe for a short time, which is really handy for a cleric that can then raise the rest of the party. So if the party wipes, the cleric can come back, and raise everyone before their Unlife expires, and keep things going.
Might even sub just to try that Hardcore Server.
Thanks for the insight.