Why must combat power be the end-all be-all in an MMORPG?
That's the question I find myself asking more and more, these days...
Not only in MMOs, but many single player RPGs, too. Sure, there is a story, but combat is the "gaming" part of them.
So much untapped potential and possibilities that may move the RPG genre forward.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
One factor most seem to often forget is that you never really progress,the content moves at the exact same pace as you do so level 1 feels the same as level 101.The only thing that changes is TIME,as you gain levels the content is more grindy a lot slower.
Some smart developer needs to come along where players actually do progress in a way that feels like progression.To do that i would say we need to get rid of levels.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I actually like big power gaps. Now I don't care if there is a huge gap between me and another player. But I do want a huge power gap between the character I was when I started and the character I after many days, weeks, months of successfully progressing.
Ultimately I think it’s a basic necessity for any game claiming rpg-like status. The only time it’s a real problem is if a high level player can ruin a low level players game time (namely pvp) or if new players coming in late have no one else to play with.
It's actually not a necessity for MMORPGs. There are other ways to progress besides acquiring more combat power (hp, mp, physical/mental attributes, stats related to combat, etc.). There can be a game with limited/realistic combat power gaps between veterans and noobs while still offering an advantage to those have played longer (invested more time and/or money). Horizontal progression could allow players to unlock more options for their characters while characters could achieve higher social, economic, political, and military ranks. Social status, wealth, political influence, and the number of NPC retainers/subordinates under a PC's command could be major factors in the game.
A game could also allow for skills, abilities, and talents to atrophy/regress if they are not used enough. Social status, wealth, political influence, and military rank could also be reduced or lost based on the player's decisions and actions. Levels of Reputation, Renown, Infamy, and Influence would be very important. Just as they are in the real world.
Character development is one of the backbones upon which role playing games were created. For mmorpgs the reason I feel it’s necessary is longevity of play. People tend to invest more time when it benefits them or they get something out if it and power is the most desirable. If the game does not have pvp then the size of the gap is almost irrelevant, but if it does then it shouldn’t be too big. Darkfall Online is a good example I like to give where the grind to high level was absolutely insane, but good players could do well with relatively young characters. Skip ahead to rise of Agon where they reduced the grind to a few weeks and people quickly stopped playing as much. Sure you can add more things to do, but intimately players lean toward becoming more powerful as the ultimate incentive to keep playing.
Why must combat power be the end-all be-all in an MMORPG?
If players benefit from other forms of power in a game, and the systems in which those powers are used are interesting/intriguing/exciting, then players should be able to adjust their mindset. Besides, it doesn't seem like any MMORPG has ever tried to do exactly what I'm talking about.
It doesn't have to be, but I've said in the past there are few reasons people make games and in this scenario there would need to be a developer that wants this type of game or a company that has data backing up a desired support for it enough to warrant the cost. I personally know from my past experience playing MMORPGs that it was the character progression that drove me forward the most and kept me playing for a long time.
So, if character power is the biggest draw, then that's what company's will make. If a developer wants to make an mmo without player character power increases then thats their choice.
It seems like you're not understanding somehow. I've said a couple times that the player character's are progressing. It's just that the player characters are also progressing in different ways besides combat power. Making the ability to increase combat power limited will make for much more enjoyable, more fair, and more balanced PVP game. IMHO.
Oh I understood perfectly fine. What I'm trying to say is that "power" is what drives players more than anything and keeps them interested. They continue to work toward more power.
How do you know for certain that most players just want more combat power? If true, perhaps that's because that's the only kind of power they're offered in the vast majority, 90%+ or more, of MMORPGs that actually matters. Wealth and Combat Power. With Wealth being a form Power that generally allows a Player Character to gain more Combat Power. If players were offered the possibility of gaining other forms of Power in the game that actually mattered and effected their Character and the Game World, then perhaps players might be interested in gaining these other forms of Power as well.
I have a question that may clear something up.
What do you see when you say "PvP?" - Is it combat only? - Is it market shares? - Is it production value and or quantities? - Is it diplomatic?
I read posts (possibly missing something) that seem to complain about PvP combat power gaps and then introduce "other kinds of power" to minimize "power need" backlash. How do you envision these "other powers" in terms of PvP?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
One factor most seem to often forget is that you never really progress,the content moves at the exact same pace as you do so level 1 feels the same as level 101.The only thing that changes is TIME,as you gain levels the content is more grindy a lot slower.
Some smart developer needs to come along where players actually do progress in a way that feels like progression.To do that i would say we need to get rid of levels.
Ironically one of the games that people like to bash on for lack of progression has the most noticeable progression without the silly you level / mobs level crap in other games. ESO has all mobs in the game world at the same level and players below their level are scaled up. That doesn't mean all mobs are equally easy or equally hard since mob types have their own intrinsic power and trick moves on top of their level.
The progression while being scaled happens with gearing and unlocking better skills and that can feel subtle. But the level of the mobs is not even half of the potential power of players who can "level" well beyond that point.
I put level in quotes because ESO has 2 leveling system: standard 1-50 and then "champion points" after 50. The CPs are like mini levels and they're very mini but do add up.
All mobs in the game are level 50 / 160 CP equivalent and the current max number of usable champion points a player can have is 810 CP. After you are no longer being scaled up after you're 50/160 you'd have to be blind not to notice your progression.
But apparently some people are blind.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I actually like big power gaps. Now I don't care if there is a huge gap between me and another player. But I do want a huge power gap between the character I was when I started and the character I after many days, weeks, months of successfully progressing.
But there are other forms of power besides combat power.
There absolutely are. But the same principle applies. Swinging sword or carving a piece of wood or building a house or even some kind of diplomacy. When I'm at Mid to max level I want the content I was doing as a noob to be excessively trivial. this at least gives the illusion that I am becoming more powerful in whatever I'm working on
This is really the core part of MMO's.
There needs to be a sense of progression. If my character is not in effect improving, why are we playing to start with?
So totally agree with you on this one man.
Ah, MMORPGs based solely around Combat Power/Gear Progression. It's so much fun to incrementally progress in Combat Power, finally acquire an incrementally better piece of shiny new gear, or earn some sort of Combat Bonus/Boon after investing many, many long hours of gameplay at Max Level. This style of progression never ceases to amuse and entertain, let me tell you. Doing the same things over and over in an endless cycle of mind-numbing repetition is what MMORPG End Games are all about. Never allow anyone to tell you differently.
The alternative being.... doing mind numbing repetition over and over again and getting nothing for it?
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I actually like big power gaps. Now I don't care if there is a huge gap between me and another player. But I do want a huge power gap between the character I was when I started and the character I after many days, weeks, months of successfully progressing.
But there are other forms of power besides combat power.
There absolutely are. But the same principle applies. Swinging sword or carving a piece of wood or building a house or even some kind of diplomacy. When I'm at Mid to max level I want the content I was doing as a noob to be excessively trivial. this at least gives the illusion that I am becoming more powerful in whatever I'm working on
This is really the core part of MMO's.
There needs to be a sense of progression. If my character is not in effect improving, why are we playing to start with?
So totally agree with you on this one man.
Ah, MMORPGs based solely around Combat Power/Gear Progression. It's so much fun to incrementally progress in Combat Power, finally acquire an incrementally better piece of shiny new gear, or earn some sort of Combat Bonus/Boon after investing many, many long hours of gameplay at Max Level. This style of progression never ceases to amuse and entertain, let me tell you. Doing the same things over and over in an endless cycle of mind-numbing repetition is what MMORPG End Games are all about. Never allow anyone to tell you differently.
That is indeed what MMORPGs are, crafting, exploration, looks, all of it is a form of progress by repeating certain tasks, its most definitely not just combat or better gear, it is all of it.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
How about Reputation/Influence/Favor with Factions and Deities? How about Provincial/Regional Renown & Infamy? How about Social, Economic, Political, and Military Ranks? How about being able to own Property/Land and Buy/Build more kinds of structures than homes/mansions? How about being able to hire & acquire NPC Retainers & Subordinates?
All of it is more, bigger, better. Its simply called progress. And you are doing it by repeating certain tasks because else there would be no structure or sense to it. This goes for every single game out there tbh, but its more obvious in MMORPGs because they have an RPG foundation in combination with endless gameplay, you’ll notice the repetition and loops better and faster. This of course with diminishing returns because the further you get in these games the less players are left.
The above isn’t bad, it is just easy to see through, especially when you have a couple of MMORPGs under your belt.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
I actually like big power gaps. Now I don't care if there is a huge gap between me and another player. But I do want a huge power gap between the character I was when I started and the character I after many days, weeks, months of successfully progressing.
But there are other forms of power besides combat power.
There absolutely are. But the same principle applies. Swinging sword or carving a piece of wood or building a house or even some kind of diplomacy. When I'm at Mid to max level I want the content I was doing as a noob to be excessively trivial. this at least gives the illusion that I am becoming more powerful in whatever I'm working on
This is really the core part of MMO's.
There needs to be a sense of progression. If my character is not in effect improving, why are we playing to start with?
So totally agree with you on this one man.
Ah, MMORPGs based solely around Combat Power/Gear Progression. It's so much fun to incrementally progress in Combat Power, finally acquire an incrementally better piece of shiny new gear, or earn some sort of Combat Bonus/Boon after investing many, many long hours of gameplay at Max Level. This style of progression never ceases to amuse and entertain, let me tell you. Doing the same things over and over in an endless cycle of mind-numbing repetition is what MMORPG End Games are all about. Never allow anyone to tell you differently.
That is indeed what MMORPGs are, crafting, exploration, looks, all of it is a form of progress by repeating certain tasks, its most definitely not just combat or better gear, it is all of it.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
How about Reputation/Influence/Favor with Factions and Deities? How about Provincial/Regional Renown & Infamy? How about Social, Economic, Political, and Military Ranks? How about being able to own Property/Land and Buy/Build more kinds of structures than homes/mansions? How about being able to hire & acquire NPC Retainers & Subordinates?
All of it is more, bigger, better. Its simply called progress. And you are doing it by repeating certain tasks because else there would be no structure or sense to it. This goes for every single game out there tbh, but its more obvious in MMORPGs because they have an RPG foundation in combination with endless gameplay, you’ll notice the repetition and loops better and faster. This of course with diminishing returns because the further you get in these games the less players are left.
The above isn’t bad, it is just easy to see through, especially when you have a couple of MMORPGs under your belt.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
That's what I call "progress".
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
I actually like big power gaps. Now I don't care if there is a huge gap between me and another player. But I do want a huge power gap between the character I was when I started and the character I after many days, weeks, months of successfully progressing.
But there are other forms of power besides combat power.
Will those have gaps?
"Power Gaps" as used here, usually refers to combat, since that is the number one activity most MMOs provide. These other kinds of power will also suffer from gaps, right?
Yes, there will be some power gaps. But not huge power gaps. And certainly no massive Combat Power gaps. There will be no player characters who are like gods compared to other player characters. We do not want to give Care Bears a reason to cry to mommy.
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
I actually like big power gaps. Now I don't care if there is a huge gap between me and another player. But I do want a huge power gap between the character I was when I started and the character I after many days, weeks, months of successfully progressing.
Personally, and as the most outspoken proponent of "lower power gaps", I am not saying that a maxed out character shouldn't be considerably more powerful than a newb.
It's a question of how much more powerful.
IN many games, if a maxed out character hits a mid level character, how many times over did they just kill that guy?
Powerful enough to grief newbies?
10-20 Noobs could potentially kill a solo top tier veteran player. Especially they laid an ambush or otherwise took him/her by surprise.
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
I actually like big power gaps. Now I don't care if there is a huge gap between me and another player. But I do want a huge power gap between the character I was when I started and the character I after many days, weeks, months of successfully progressing.
Ultimately I think it’s a basic necessity for any game claiming rpg-like status. The only time it’s a real problem is if a high level player can ruin a low level players game time (namely pvp) or if new players coming in late have no one else to play with.
It's actually not a necessity for MMORPGs. There are other ways to progress besides acquiring more combat power (hp, mp, physical/mental attributes, stats related to combat, etc.). There can be a game with limited/realistic combat power gaps between veterans and noobs while still offering an advantage to those have played longer (invested more time and/or money). Horizontal progression could allow players to unlock more options for their characters while characters could achieve higher social, economic, political, and military ranks. Social status, wealth, political influence, and the number of NPC retainers/subordinates under a PC's command could be major factors in the game.
A game could also allow for skills, abilities, and talents to atrophy/regress if they are not used enough. Social status, wealth, political influence, and military rank could also be reduced or lost based on the player's decisions and actions. Levels of Reputation, Renown, Infamy, and Influence would be very important. Just as they are in the real world.
Character development is one of the backbones upon which role playing games were created. For mmorpgs the reason I feel it’s necessary is longevity of play. People tend to invest more time when it benefits them or they get something out if it and power is the most desirable. If the game does not have pvp then the size of the gap is almost irrelevant, but if it does then it shouldn’t be too big. Darkfall Online is a good example I like to give where the grind to high level was absolutely insane, but good players could do well with relatively young characters. Skip ahead to rise of Agon where they reduced the grind to a few weeks and people quickly stopped playing as much. Sure you can add more things to do, but intimately players lean toward becoming more powerful as the ultimate incentive to keep playing.
Why must combat power be the end-all be-all in an MMORPG?
If players benefit from other forms of power in a game, and the systems in which those powers are used are interesting/intriguing/exciting, then players should be able to adjust their mindset. Besides, it doesn't seem like any MMORPG has ever tried to do exactly what I'm talking about.
It doesn't have to be, but I've said in the past there are few reasons people make games and in this scenario there would need to be a developer that wants this type of game or a company that has data backing up a desired support for it enough to warrant the cost. I personally know from my past experience playing MMORPGs that it was the character progression that drove me forward the most and kept me playing for a long time.
So, if character power is the biggest draw, then that's what company's will make. If a developer wants to make an mmo without player character power increases then thats their choice.
It seems like you're not understanding somehow. I've said a couple times that the player character's are progressing. It's just that the player characters are also progressing in different ways besides combat power. Making the ability to increase combat power limited will make for much more enjoyable, more fair, and more balanced PVP game. IMHO.
Oh I understood perfectly fine. What I'm trying to say is that "power" is what drives players more than anything and keeps them interested. They continue to work toward more power.
How do you know for certain that most players just want more combat power? If true, perhaps that's because that's the only kind of power they're offered in the vast majority, 90%+ or more, of MMORPGs that actually matters. Wealth and Combat Power. With Wealth being a form Power that generally allows a Player Character to gain more Combat Power. If players were offered the possibility of gaining other forms of Power in the game that actually mattered and effected their Character and the Game World, then perhaps players might be interested in gaining these other forms of Power as well.
I have a question that may clear something up.
What do you see when you say "PvP?" - Is it combat only? - Is it market shares? - Is it production value and or quantities? - Is it diplomatic?
I read posts (possibly missing something) that seem to complain about PvP combat power gaps and then introduce "other kinds of power" to minimize "power need" backlash. How do you envision these "other powers" in terms of PvP?
PVP is any form of competition between players in a game.
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
Whenever I talk about my passion for horizontal progression and the benefits of building your MMORPG around it, I have only one goal in mind:
To allow players to play together.
Vertical character progression divides the community by power, so despite 1000s on your server, you can only actually play with a small slice of that community. For the massively multiplayer genre, it has always seemed absurd that the core design keeps players apart. Combine that with linear quest design that also keeps players separated, as well as all the usual differences in playstyle and social preferences.....
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
Whenever I talk about my passion for horizontal progression and the benefits of building your MMORPG around it, I have only one goal in mind:
To allow players to play together.
Vertical character progression divides the community by power, so despite 1000s on your server, you can only actually play with a small slice of that community. For the massively multiplayer genre, it has always seemed absurd that the core design keeps players apart. Combine that with linear quest design that also keeps players separated, as well as all the usual differences in playstyle and social preferences.....
I understand. I'm only suggesting some limited/realistic form of vertical Combat Power progression. Otherwise the game just wouldn't be realistic. People can get better at things. But I don't want veteran top tier player characters to be gods compared to new players. I think 10-20 noobs should be able to kill a solo top tier veteran player character.
Horizontal progression to unlock more options is also good.
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
I actually like big power gaps. Now I don't care if there is a huge gap between me and another player. But I do want a huge power gap between the character I was when I started and the character I after many days, weeks, months of successfully progressing.
Personally, and as the most outspoken proponent of "lower power gaps", I am not saying that a maxed out character shouldn't be considerably more powerful than a newb.
It's a question of how much more powerful.
IN many games, if a maxed out character hits a mid level character, how many times over did they just kill that guy?
Powerful enough to grief newbies?
Yes. Which is why I've ALWAYS been for protections in the form of Justice Systems. I think you should see that now, from my other post (which is after this one's time stamp, I believe). So no harm no foul, just sayin'.
I actually like big power gaps. Now I don't care if there is a huge gap between me and another player. But I do want a huge power gap between the character I was when I started and the character I after many days, weeks, months of successfully progressing.
Personally, and as the most outspoken proponent of "lower power gaps", I am not saying that a maxed out character shouldn't be considerably more powerful than a newb.
It's a question of how much more powerful.
IN many games, if a maxed out character hits a mid level character, how many times over did they just kill that guy?
Powerful enough to grief newbies?
Yes. Which is why I've ALWAYS been for protections in the form of Justice Systems. I think you should see that now, from my other post (which is after this one's time stamp, I believe). So no harm no foul, just sayin'.
Seems to me like criminals don't like to have consequences for their actions. Who cares if some people don't like Justice Systems in games? They can keep playing their piece of **** PVP games where they can try to prey on the weak without repercussion and try to dominate the other 50 people playing the game.
But people who actually want to Role-Play criminals or villains won't mind having consequences for their actions. Because it will make the game more challenging for them.
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
I actually like big power gaps. Now I don't care if there is a huge gap between me and another player. But I do want a huge power gap between the character I was when I started and the character I after many days, weeks, months of successfully progressing.
But there are other forms of power besides combat power.
Will those have gaps?
"Power Gaps" as used here, usually refers to combat, since that is the number one activity most MMOs provide. These other kinds of power will also suffer from gaps, right?
Yes, there will be some power gaps. But not huge power gaps. And certainly no massive Combat Power gaps. There will be no player characters who are like gods compared to other player characters. We do not want to give Care Bears a reason to cry to mommy.
LOL.. you want Carebears in a OWPvP game? I think you are very confused.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I actually like big power gaps. Now I don't care if there is a huge gap between me and another player. But I do want a huge power gap between the character I was when I started and the character I after many days, weeks, months of successfully progressing.
But there are other forms of power besides combat power.
Will those have gaps?
"Power Gaps" as used here, usually refers to combat, since that is the number one activity most MMOs provide. These other kinds of power will also suffer from gaps, right?
Yes, there will be some power gaps. But not huge power gaps. And certainly no massive Combat Power gaps. There will be no player characters who are like gods compared to other player characters. We do not want to give Care Bears a reason to cry to mommy.
LOL.. you want Carebears in a OWPvP game? I think you are very confused.
Oh, sorry, you're right. I meant Gummi Bears.
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
I actually like big power gaps. Now I don't care if there is a huge gap between me and another player. But I do want a huge power gap between the character I was when I started and the character I after many days, weeks, months of successfully progressing.
But there are other forms of power besides combat power.
There absolutely are. But the same principle applies. Swinging sword or carving a piece of wood or building a house or even some kind of diplomacy. When I'm at Mid to max level I want the content I was doing as a noob to be excessively trivial. this at least gives the illusion that I am becoming more powerful in whatever I'm working on
This is really the core part of MMO's.
There needs to be a sense of progression. If my character is not in effect improving, why are we playing to start with?
So totally agree with you on this one man.
Ah, MMORPGs based solely around Combat Power/Gear Progression. It's so much fun to incrementally progress in Combat Power, finally acquire an incrementally better piece of shiny new gear, or earn some sort of Combat Bonus/Boon after investing many, many long hours of gameplay at Max Level. This style of progression never ceases to amuse and entertain, let me tell you. Doing the same things over and over in an endless cycle of mind-numbing repetition is what MMORPG End Games are all about. Never allow anyone to tell you differently.
Most mmorpg are much more than combat power and gear progression. There are also collectible and achievment people collect.
Also people chase combat power/gear progression because usually it unlocks something. Weather it is allowing them to defeat harder dungeon or competing in higher tier of pvp.
You said yourself mmorpg is all about doing endless cycle of mind-numbing repetition in end game. All the popular mmorpg designed their mmorpg around making players chasing carrot on a stick. That's probably why developer make it that way. Because they see the trend.
WoW refined the Skinner Box Carrot-on-a-Stick Gear Treadmill Merry-go-Round. Wrapped it up in a nice package that was relatively fun, user friendly, and easy on the eyes (for 2004). Blizzard made millions and other game developers/investors wanted a piece of that pie. So they did their best to emulate WoW. But no one has ever managed to match or eclipse Wow for well over a decade. Why should players settle for an imitation when they can play the original? 90%+ of all MMORPGs are just FF/EQ/WoW clones with different bells and whistles. (Btw, I don't see how collectibles and achievements are really all that exciting.)
Innovation and imaginative new features and systems are a prime requisite for any game developers looking to overtake Blizzard in the MMORPG market. IMHO, trying to make a game that is actually a true role-playing game (or as close to possible to one) online is the only sensible way forward.
End Game Grind is basically the only way to keep people playing in a mainly PVE game with massively vertical Character Level/Combat Power/Gear progression. The main reason to keep playing is to make one's character incrementally more wealthy and powerful. But there's not much to do with that wealth and power besides the same things the players did to gain that wealth and power in the first place. The games are static and the players choices have no lasting effect on the game world for good or evil, for better or worse.
The only ways for an MMORPG game world to be truly dynamic are either by the introduction of incredibly advance AI (which I do not believe I will see in my lifetime) or by implementing Faction-based PVP in a way that is fair and fun for the majority of players.
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
One factor most seem to often forget is that you never really progress,the content moves at the exact same pace as you do so level 1 feels the same as level 101.The only thing that changes is TIME,as you gain levels the content is more grindy a lot slower.
Some smart developer needs to come along where players actually do progress in a way that feels like progression.To do that i would say we need to get rid of levels.
Ironically one of the games that people like to bash on for lack of progression has the most noticeable progression without the silly you level / mobs level crap in other games. ESO has all mobs in the game world at the same level and players below their level are scaled up. That doesn't mean all mobs are equally easy or equally hard since mob types have their own intrinsic power and trick moves on top of their level.
The progression while being scaled happens with gearing and unlocking better skills and that can feel subtle. But the level of the mobs is not even half of the potential power of players who can "level" well beyond that point.
I put level in quotes because ESO has 2 leveling system: standard 1-50 and then "champion points" after 50. The CPs are like mini levels and they're very mini but do add up.
All mobs in the game are level 50 / 160 CP equivalent and the current max number of usable champion points a player can have is 810 CP. After you are no longer being scaled up after you're 50/160 you'd have to be blind not to notice your progression.
But apparently some people are blind.
So what is this ESO game you keep talking about? A Baseball MMORPG or something? Epic Strike Out?
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
I actually like big power gaps. Now I don't care if there is a huge gap between me and another player. But I do want a huge power gap between the character I was when I started and the character I after many days, weeks, months of successfully progressing.
But there are other forms of power besides combat power.
Will those have gaps?
"Power Gaps" as used here, usually refers to combat, since that is the number one activity most MMOs provide. These other kinds of power will also suffer from gaps, right?
Yes, there will be some power gaps. But not huge power gaps. And certainly no massive Combat Power gaps. There will be no player characters who are like gods compared to other player characters. We do not want to give Care Bears a reason to cry to mommy.
LOL.. you want Carebears in a OWPvP game? I think you are very confused.
Oh, sorry, you're right. I meant Gummi Bears.
You would have a better chance to keep them around in a PvP game then you would carebear players.
Here is the deal, know your audience, and focus on them. There is not a single thing you can do in a Open World PvP game that will attract PvE players or Carebears to stay around, other than removing the PvP.
Just embrace that, and realize that if you give players the ability to gank each other, that means you want them to gank each other.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
One factor most seem to often forget is that you never really progress,the content moves at the exact same pace as you do so level 1 feels the same as level 101.The only thing that changes is TIME,as you gain levels the content is more grindy a lot slower.
Some smart developer needs to come along where players actually do progress in a way that feels like progression.To do that i would say we need to get rid of levels.
Ironically one of the games that people like to bash on for lack of progression has the most noticeable progression without the silly you level / mobs level crap in other games. ESO has all mobs in the game world at the same level and players below their level are scaled up. That doesn't mean all mobs are equally easy or equally hard since mob types have their own intrinsic power and trick moves on top of their level.
The progression while being scaled happens with gearing and unlocking better skills and that can feel subtle. But the level of the mobs is not even half of the potential power of players who can "level" well beyond that point.
I put level in quotes because ESO has 2 leveling system: standard 1-50 and then "champion points" after 50. The CPs are like mini levels and they're very mini but do add up.
All mobs in the game are level 50 / 160 CP equivalent and the current max number of usable champion points a player can have is 810 CP. After you are no longer being scaled up after you're 50/160 you'd have to be blind not to notice your progression.
But apparently some people are blind.
So what is this ESO game you keep talking about? A Baseball MMORPG or something? Epic Strike Out?
I don't know what is the relation between ESO and baseball. If you are passively aggressively making fun of ESO, at least it exists and have people playing.
I think everything you said already are made in some mmorpg or other genre of games in one form or another. GW2 dont' have gear progression. There are faction base games. There are shooters/moba with fair pvp. Survival games you need to eat to survive.
I would suggest you to play legend of aria but I don't know if you want to play low budget games made by a small team.
How many people who play ESO (and/or any other popular MMORPG on the market today) play it because they think it's great (or even good) as opposed to those who play it simply because they can't find anything better to play? Do you have accurate statistics on this? Have you taken scientific polls of a reasonably large sample of people who play these games?
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
I played vaporware and there are people enjoy playing it.
Even if in your mind majority of ESO players for some odd reason play a game they don't love, I'm sure there are at least some people who enjoy playing it.
The reality is everything you want is already made. There are no gear progression game, there are faction pvp games(or at least there are some being made now), there are sandbox games. You want everything you want pretty much customly made for you.
If you want to play faction pvp games, are you going to play camelot unchain or Crowfall? I guess not.
You can log in and play Legend of Aria now. I guess you won't even bother to try.
I played vaporware and there are people enjoy playing it.
Even if in your mind majority of ESO players for some odd reason play a game they don't love, I'm sure there are at least some people who enjoy playing it.
The reality is everything you want is already made. There are no gear progression game, there are faction pvp games(or at least there are some being made now), there are sandbox games. You want everything you want pretty much customly made for you.
If you want to play faction pvp games, are you going to play camelot unchain or Crowfall? I guess not.
You can log in and play Legend of Aria now. I guess you won't even bother to try.
Hmm. So you're saying that I should settle for something that has some of the features I might like, even if it possibly has a few (or even many) features, systems, and mechanics that I will not enjoy or find interesting (that may even annoy me or bore me), sit down, and shut up?
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
How many people who play ESO (and/or any other popular MMORPG on the market today) play it because they think it's great (or even good) as opposed to those who play it simply because they can't find anything better to play? Do you have accurate statistics on this? Have you taken scientific polls of a reasonably large sample of people who play these games?
If it's the best thing on the market, doesn't that by default make it good?
I mean I suppose, players could have the view the game "sucks balls", but if is still the best thing on the market, that would just make everything else is on the market to be worse then "sucking balls" ... and I don't think that is flattering to all the games and all the people that like the games other than ESO.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Comments
Not only in MMOs, but many single player RPGs, too. Sure, there is a story, but combat is the "gaming" part of them.
So much untapped potential and possibilities that may move the RPG genre forward.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Some smart developer needs to come along where players actually do progress in a way that feels like progression.To do that i would say we need to get rid of levels.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
What do you see when you say "PvP?"
- Is it combat only?
- Is it market shares?
- Is it production value and or quantities?
- Is it diplomatic?
I read posts (possibly missing something) that seem to complain about PvP combat power gaps and then introduce "other kinds of power" to minimize "power need" backlash. How do you envision these "other powers" in terms of PvP?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
The progression while being scaled happens with gearing and unlocking better skills and that can feel subtle. But the level of the mobs is not even half of the potential power of players who can "level" well beyond that point.
I put level in quotes because ESO has 2 leveling system: standard 1-50 and then "champion points" after 50. The CPs are like mini levels and they're very mini but do add up.
All mobs in the game are level 50 / 160 CP equivalent and the current max number of usable champion points a player can have is 810 CP. After you are no longer being scaled up after you're 50/160 you'd have to be blind not to notice your progression.
But apparently some people are blind.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
The above isn’t bad, it is just easy to see through, especially when you have a couple of MMORPGs under your belt.
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Yes, there will be some power gaps. But not huge power gaps. And certainly no massive Combat Power gaps. There will be no player characters who are like gods compared to other player characters. We do not want to give Care Bears a reason to cry to mommy.
10-20 Noobs could potentially kill a solo top tier veteran player. Especially they laid an ambush or otherwise took him/her by surprise.
PVP is any form of competition between players in a game.
I think you should see that now, from my other post (which is after this one's time stamp, I believe). So no harm no foul, just sayin'.
Once upon a time....
Also people chase combat power/gear progression because usually it unlocks something. Weather it is allowing them to defeat harder dungeon or competing in higher tier of pvp.
You said yourself mmorpg is all about doing endless cycle of mind-numbing repetition in end game. All the popular mmorpg designed their mmorpg around making players chasing carrot on a stick. That's probably why developer make it that way. Because they see the trend.
Here is the deal, know your audience, and focus on them. There is not a single thing you can do in a Open World PvP game that will attract PvE players or Carebears to stay around, other than removing the PvP.
Just embrace that, and realize that if you give players the ability to gank each other, that means you want them to gank each other.
I think everything you said already are made in some mmorpg or other genre of games in one form or another. GW2 dont' have gear progression. There are faction base games. There are shooters/moba with fair pvp. Survival games you need to eat to survive.
I would suggest you to play legend of aria but I don't know if you want to play low budget games made by a small team.
Even if in your mind majority of ESO players for some odd reason play a game they don't love, I'm sure there are at least some people who enjoy playing it.
The reality is everything you want is already made. There are no gear progression game, there are faction pvp games(or at least there are some being made now), there are sandbox games. You want everything you want pretty much customly made for you.
If you want to play faction pvp games, are you going to play camelot unchain or Crowfall? I guess not.
You can log in and play Legend of Aria now. I guess you won't even bother to try.
Hmm. So you're saying that I should settle for something that has some of the features I might like, even if it possibly has a few (or even many) features, systems, and mechanics that I will not enjoy or find interesting (that may even annoy me or bore me), sit down, and shut up?
I mean I suppose, players could have the view the game "sucks balls", but if is still the best thing on the market, that would just make everything else is on the market to be worse then "sucking balls" ... and I don't think that is flattering to all the games and all the people that like the games other than ESO.