I've been fighting a little bit with this realism/immersion question during this glorious crazy modded Skyrim run I'm in the middle of.
I've followed what is, in my opinion at least, a completely amazing and also insane modding guide here (DarkLadyLexy's Legacy of the Dragonborn Guide). As I've been customizing my experience over time, there are 3 mods that I have disabled:
Frostfall - A wonderful mod that simulates weathers effects on your person and requires you to mitigate those effects through clothing, warm fires, etc. It also disables fast travel and focuses on traveling through the use of carriages/boats.
Realistic Needs & Diseases - Another great mod that lets you know when you are getting hungry or thirsty and so you have mitigate by eating something 2 or 3 times and in game day.
Keep it Clean - A bathing mod. Every once in a while, you should bathe to remove the negative effects of becoming dirty. Perhaps once a day is enough.
There are many mods that work in tandem with these to try and develop a more realistic feel to the game. I was excited to try this new way of playing Skyrim in a fully featured way like this combination of mods seems to offer. And I did play for quite a while like that.
Eventually though, the veil of pretend realism faded. It began to become busy work. When it came to food and water, I was pressing a "b" and "n" keybind to stave off hunger and thirst. When it came to warmth, I had to change clothes in and out whenever I started to get cold. Sometimes I used a quick access wheel to build a fire to get warm. And when it came to cleaning, every single day, I would go to an Inn and pay them 10 gold to clean myself.
In the end, I was never in any danger and nothing about it was difficult. You get small buffs for maintaining yourself and small to large debuffs for ignoring them. It was just adding busy work to everything and honestly, I just felt like it was wasting my time. What seemed like interesting concepts, ended up being cumbersome and annoying. And the day that I turned these features off, it felt so much better to play.
You see, that's too much. That kind of overuse is predictably cumbersome to players. It does no service to the concepts that some want in their games.
And just as predictable is the reactions from gamers as soon as they hear anything resembling that, an assumption that it will always be too cumbersome.
There is no need to make weather effects always present a need. But in freezing arctic conditions, simply having the proper warm weather wearables is enough.
There is no good reason to force players to eat every game time day. Once in a play session is enough.
But what both things do (if not overdone) is: - add immersion - create more game play for crafts players - add to the economy.
I don't really want to argue with you. But I will say this. In the kind of game I'm thinking of, there would be more ways to end a battle than simply killing, being killed, or running away. For example, I would like for players, mobs, and NPCs to have the options to knock out or capture opponents as well. So, the need to eat and drink might very well become extremely serious if someone or a group of someones decided to knock my character out, rob him, and leave him for dead on the side of the road or out in the wilderness somewhere.
Post edited by Ancient_Exile on
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
A good example in Skyrim of realism that never gets old is the flight of arrows and other projectiles. It is so much better than the projectiles in other RPGs that behave like laser guided mini missiles.
As to the other stuff that you eventually turned off, I would never have installed them in the first place because I know that they would have annoyed me to no end.
And I can definitely immerse in Skyrim. I'm also replaying it at the moment.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I don't want to change any MMORPGs available to play at this time. But I would like just one game to be designed with the features and systems that I've mentioned. And, yes, they would all be implemented so as to feel vital and necessary, not just frills and useless baggage. I do believe that the kind of game I have in mind would appeal to a much wider audience than simply those who already play MMORPGs at the moment. Why? Because the game would be about a lot more than fighting and looting in order to gain power and wealth. Power and wealth which, as I've mentioned before, you can't really do a whole lot with in most modern MMORPGs.
You are going to have to help me out here.
What are these "features" you want?
This is what I could guess at.
Encumbrance? DDO has that. Hard 12 person raids with 1% drop rates for good items? DDO has that Needing to go to the Trading Post to Buy/Sell? - DDO has that. Item Wear? DDO has that. Food/Drink/Rest? DDO has that
As a Bonus, DDO is a whole game about resource management, preparation and planning ahead.
The mobs have all kinds of special abilities and 'common sense' strengths and weakness as well as special abilities, like being turned to stone by a medusa, werewolves needing silver weapons to hurt them, right down to things like fire imps and elementals being immune to fire damage.
In fact the only thing on your list that DDO does not have, is the limited communication, which for the life of me, I cannot understand why anyone would NOT want to be able to just send a tell to their friends in game.
I simply do not grasp the need to be required to talk with your buddies in discord to just ask them where they were so you all could meet up and group for a dungeon.
But, DDo does have in game group based voice chat, and you can even mute people without needing to block them.. handy!
What what is it.. you are really looking for?
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I don't really want to argue with you. But I will say this. In the kind of game I'm thinking of, there would be more ways to end a battle than simply killing, being killed, or running away. For example, I would like for players, mobs, and NPCs to have the options to knock out or capture opponents as well. So, the need to eat and drink might very well become very serious if someone or a group of someones decided to knock my character out, rob him, and leave him for dead on the side of the road or out in the wilderness somewhere.
I think that you're not foreseeing how rote that behavior will become in a game (especially in a shared world like an MMORPG). "Oh, someone knocked me out and stole my stuff again. Guess I'll wait until I can eat and drink again before I do things."
On paper it sounds like fun. In fact, in pen and paper games, these situations ARE fun. But in an MMORPG where "random internet guy" can choose your fate, this idea has all kinds of negative implications for the player.
I want an MMORPG where every choice and action a player character makes
can effect or change the game world. From the most minimal, mundane,
and superficial of situations to the most dramatic and earth-shaking of
events.
And I'm pretty sure I know how that can be accomplished. Only the proper implementation of PVP, in a fair and fun way,
can make this happen. IMHO.
There are ways to set up systems of penalties, limitations, and
consequences in order to teach/train most players that they had probably
better have a good reason for killing someone if they don't want to
make their game life hell. Unless that player is comfortable playing an
infamous villain, wanted criminal, or otherwise murderous psychopath
who will be (KOS) killed on sight in most civilized areas.
As for the communication thing, I would like for town squares and taverns to be more than just decoration. The same goes for inns and homes. Which relates to the need to sleep occasionally. In the old Final Fantasy games you needed to use a tent or rent a room at inn in order to fully restore HP & MP. It wasn't a big hassle. Took a few minutes, cost a few gold. In EQ2, you could stack up to 99 each of food and drink. And the epic food and drink would give you nice stat bonuses. So either make it yourself (if your character had trained the Cooking profession) or buy it at the Auction House. Not hard, not a hassle. Not really.
And needing torches, lanterns, or other light sources in dark caves or dungeons? Well, some races have infra-vision, such as elves, dwarves, and orcs. Mages and priests can cast light spells. And eventually a character of any class or race could eventually find an item that glowed in the dark or granted them the infra-vision ability.
But imagine being in a cave or dungeon, surrounded by undead or any kind of monster, and then suddenly a supernatural wind rises up and blows out your torch. That would be pretty tense.
As for DDO, I do admit that it has some decent features, which is why I started playing it again. Never got past level 3 before, so there's plenty for me to experience in that game. If I had already played it to high or max level, then I probably wouldn't touch it right now. I mean, you yourself stated in one of your posts on the subject that you hadn't been playing it anymore. There must be a reason for that.
EDIT: I don't think I've encountered the need to eat, drink, or sleep in DDO as of yet.
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
I've been fighting a little bit with this realism/immersion question during this glorious crazy modded Skyrim run I'm in the middle of.
I've followed what is, in my opinion at least, a completely amazing and also insane modding guide here (DarkLadyLexy's Legacy of the Dragonborn Guide). As I've been customizing my experience over time, there are 3 mods that I have disabled:
Frostfall - A wonderful mod that simulates weathers effects on your person and requires you to mitigate those effects through clothing, warm fires, etc. It also disables fast travel and focuses on traveling through the use of carriages/boats.
Realistic Needs & Diseases - Another great mod that lets you know when you are getting hungry or thirsty and so you have mitigate by eating something 2 or 3 times and in game day.
Keep it Clean - A bathing mod. Every once in a while, you should bathe to remove the negative effects of becoming dirty. Perhaps once a day is enough.
There are many mods that work in tandem with these to try and develop a more realistic feel to the game. I was excited to try this new way of playing Skyrim in a fully featured way like this combination of mods seems to offer. And I did play for quite a while like that.
Eventually though, the veil of pretend realism faded. It began to become busy work. When it came to food and water, I was pressing a "b" and "n" keybind to stave off hunger and thirst. When it came to warmth, I had to change clothes in and out whenever I started to get cold. Sometimes I used a quick access wheel to build a fire to get warm. And when it came to cleaning, every single day, I would go to an Inn and pay them 10 gold to clean myself.
In the end, I was never in any danger and nothing about it was difficult. You get small buffs for maintaining yourself and small to large debuffs for ignoring them. It was just adding busy work to everything and honestly, I just felt like it was wasting my time. What seemed like interesting concepts, ended up being cumbersome and annoying. And the day that I turned these features off, it felt so much better to play.
You see, that's too much. That kind of overuse is predictably cumbersome to players. It does no service to the concepts that some want in their games.
And just as predictable is the reactions from gamers as soon as they hear anything resembling that, an assumption that it will always be too cumbersome.
There is no need to make weather effects always present a need. But in freezing arctic conditions, simply having the proper warm weather wearables is enough.
There is no good reason to force players to eat every game time day. Once in a play session is enough.
But what both things do (if not overdone) is: - add immersion - create more game play for crafts players - add to the economy.
So, I somewhat agree with here. For instance, food crafting was majorly overhauled in these mods and now you can level in cooking and make more and more complex things that give you better and better buffs. You can have these buffs available and this expanded food system without forcing the player to eat 2 or 3 times a day. And it does work pretty well in practice IMO.
In order for a more realistic and more vibrant economy to exist in a game, a few basic features/systems are required.
This is because all real world economies are based on certain fundamentals. Without which a true or functioning economy cannot exist.
And therefore, more realistic social, political, and military orders/organizations cannot exist either.
1) Player Characters & NPCs need food/water, shelter, clothing, and sleep. Items/equipment gear needs to be able to break/wear out/get damaged beyond repair/decay/otherwise became unusable.
A signifcant part of any economy is repairing or replacing persihable items.
1a) PCs & NPCs get hungry and thirsty. They can actually die from hunger & thirst. So, they need to eat and drink occassionally. More so if they've been doing any form of strenuous exercise (especially fighting) or if they haven't gotten enough sleep.
1b) PCs & NPCs need to seek shelter when weather conditions demand it. If not then certain penalites will result. Cold, heat, dampness, dryness, etc., can all effect the stats and performance of characters.
1c) Clothing is necessary for warmth. But warm clothing can be a hindrance in warmer climates. Clothes and armor should also have be subject to damage, wear, and tear. Durability and decay are factors. Clothing and armor can only be repaired or mended so many times before it becomes worthless. Unless they're magical or divine/infernal (holy/unholy).
Some magical/divine/infernal gear might last forver, some might just last a lot longer than normal equipment. The same would apply to weapons and other types of items and equipment. Food and liquids would also be perishable.
1d) PCs & NPCs all need to sleep/rest occasionally in order to restore stamina/energy and to restore hitpoints/magic points more quickly. This wouldn't take long in game terms. Anyone ever played the old Final Fantasy games where your party could sleep in an inn or camp in sleeping bags/tents/cabins in order to fully restore HP & MP? The need to sleep would also make inns and taverns more useful. As would the option for a player to own his or her own home.
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
You are essentially saying that there needs to be sinks in the game for a working economy. And yes, in a really great MMORPG economy, there would need to be good sinks and ways to produce.
However, you do not need YOUR sinks. You don't need real life-like sinks in a game at all. Instead of clothing that wears out or food that gets eaten, you can have completely fantasy sinks.
"My umbra needs to be charged by crystals that are mined by players," is just as valid as, "my pick needs to be repaired using iron mined by players."
It wouldn't be just, I need to eat and drink before I can do things, it would be I need to find some food and water before I starve to death or die of thirst. The water part probably wouldn't be too difficult. Unless my character was in a desert.
If you recall, Frodo and Samwise were running out of food on their way to Mount Doom in the Return of the King. This added to the tension and the drama, because they were pretty certain they didn't have enough left to survive on if they were able to attempt a return journey.
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
It wouldn't be just, I need to eat and drink before I can do things, it would be I need to find some food and water before I starve to death or die of thirst. The water part probably wouldn't be too difficult. Unless my character was in a desert.
If you recall, Frodo and Samwise were running out of food on their way to Mount Doom in the Return of the King. This added to the tension and the drama, because they were pretty certain they didn't have enough left to survive on if they were able to attempt a return journey.
Are you proposing permadeath then? Because unless there is permadeath, you are just proposing another time sink.
lol. i got a game for you, dude. you ain't gonna believe this crap. for srs!
it has light sources. torches that burn down, lanterns than can run out of oil, a miner's helmet (that also requires oil) if you want to keep your hands free for fighting. there's even a magic power source that you can charge up and use.... IF you're a magic user. if you aren't, you're stuck with the more mundane methods. and you still have to hold it.
incredibly complex combat full of dodges, blocks (with shield and without), parries, heavy smashing blows, light jabs, visceral body damage to individual body parts, not just a generic HP bar. you want to cut off that goblin's head? you can! disembowel the kobold? sure, you can do that too. but watch out, they can do the same to you.
every weapon type and armor type you can imagine. mix and match. dual wield, or don't. hand-and-a-half swords that you can use one OR two handed as you choose. smaller daggers that you can throw OR stab with. no class/race restrictions on armors or weapons. do what you want. be what you want, as long as you're willing to accept the potential negatives. you might *not* want to wear that heavy plate as a tree-climbing ranger or a sneaky thief... it won't end well for you.
technically food, drink and sleeping are totally optional, but roleplay is STRONGLY encouraged in this game, and LOADS of options are available... eat spicy food that will curl your nose hairs, drink something so strong it makes a dwarf stagger... or just have a sandwich and some water. your choice. you can even do silly things like throw jelly beans at each other. and you can hit a room in the inn (with a locking door if you want a little *ahem* private time with someone... *wink wink*), or even crash in your own bed if you choose to buy a home. there's a limited number of them, by the way. if you really like a particular house location, you have to wait till they build more houses, or someone moves out (which can happen because someone stops making payments. lol).
your clothing doesn't get damaged, but your equipment most certainly does. and if you aren't careful and get it fixed promptly it can be completely destroyed. not only that, metal armor and weapons must be fixed by a blacksmith, and leather and wood must be repaired at the leatherworker's shop. and yeah, certain mobs will break your gear a lot faster than others.
most gear isn't magical in nature, altho a few items from festival merchants have some magical properties. oh yeah. traveling merchants visit the various cities in game on a semi regular basis and sell unique gear, clothing and foods/drinks that cannot be found anywhere else in the game world.
encumbrance is a thing. carrying too much crap? it screws up your ability to evade attacks, your ability to swim, climb, hide. all KINDS of stuff. not only that, but your inventory bags come in various sizes, some gear won't fit into some bags. no, your six foot long zweihander is not gonna fit in your standard sized backpack, you need a special harness to hold it. and just like your gear, your bags fit in body slots. you can't have more than 1 thing on your back, 3 things on your shoulders, etc. so you can have only 1 backpack, but you can have 2 haversacks and a harness.
you'd be in heaven when it came to communication. there is literally NO way to communicate beyond a short distance away from you without magical means. one of the few magical items... headgear that sits on your temples and amplifies your thoughts and allows you to receive the thoughts of others. only people wearing one can communicate long distance, but even that is not gamewide... just across several zones worth of distance.
most travel is by foot. or by horseback. if you have a horse you have to care for it, painstakingly. picking out it's hooves, brushing it and combing the mane and tail, and you need to keep it fed and happy. if you're going hunting, you better find a stable to store it in, or risk it running off and losing all your tack you paid for, or worse, something eating it.
there's no "raids" in the traditional sense. the best gear is made by skilled craftsmen who have honed their craft over the years, and jealously guard their secret recipes of how they combine the various ingredients in different ratios. there are, however, invasions... minding your own business relaxing in town? ya never know when the Goblin King will decide he's had enough of the lower level adventurers killing his minions and attacks the city with the full force of his more advanced army, calling in favors from stronger monsters too... challenging the skills of the most seasoned adventurer, and wreaking havoc in town.
there's pvp, but very little "random ganking". thieves can steal from shops, and even from other players. there is an absolutely incredible amount of verbs to enhance your roleplay.
so what's the hangup for this wonder game?
it's a 24 year old MUD.
if you're still interested, it's called DragonRealms, and it's free for 3 months because of Covid-19
I want an MMORPG where every choice and action a player character makes
can effect or change the game world. From the most minimal, mundane,
and superficial of situations to the most dramatic and earth-shaking of
events.
This is never going to happen.. there are just too many pool shitters in the world to allow them to have any say in the future of a shared public game.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I am trying to think of maybe something like ARK might be what you are looking for, maybe DayZ.
Something along the survival genre.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
In order for a more realistic and more vibrant economy to exist in a game, a few basic features/systems are required.
This is because all real world economies are based on certain fundamentals. Without which a true or functioning economy cannot exist.
And therefore, more realistic social, political, and military orders/organizations cannot exist either.
1) Player Characters & NPCs need food/water, shelter, clothing, and sleep. Items/equipment gear needs to be able to break/wear out/get damaged beyond repair/decay/otherwise became unusable.
A signifcant part of any economy is repairing or replacing persihable items.
1a) PCs & NPCs get hungry and thirsty. They can actually die from hunger & thirst. So, they need to eat and drink occassionally. More so if they've been doing any form of strenuous exercise (especially fighting) or if they haven't gotten enough sleep.
1b) PCs & NPCs need to seek shelter when weather conditions demand it. If not then certain penalites will result. Cold, heat, dampness, dryness, etc., can all effect the stats and performance of characters.
1c) Clothing is necessary for warmth. But warm clothing can be a hindrance in warmer climates. Clothes and armor should also have be subject to damage, wear, and tear. Durability and decay are factors. Clothing and armor can only be repaired or mended so many times before it becomes worthless. Unless they're magical or divine/infernal (holy/unholy).
Some magical/divine/infernal gear might last forver, some might just last a lot longer than normal equipment. The same would apply to weapons and other types of items and equipment. Food and liquids would also be perishable.
1d) PCs & NPCs all need to sleep/rest occasionally in order to restore stamina/energy and to restore hitpoints/magic points more quickly. This wouldn't take long in game terms. Anyone ever played the old Final Fantasy games where your party could sleep in an inn or camp in sleeping bags/tents/cabins in order to fully restore HP & MP? The need to sleep would also make inns and taverns more useful. As would the option for a player to own his or her own home.
I would love a modern MMORPG like that. You could have places that are very challenging to get to, and success actually gives you a real feeling of accomplishment (as well as special reward). And failure doesn't bother me. That just gives me more incentive. Failure at a grand plan can also be a memorable experience.
I've been fighting a little bit with this realism/immersion question during this glorious crazy modded Skyrim run I'm in the middle of.
I've followed what is, in my opinion at least, a completely amazing and also insane modding guide here (DarkLadyLexy's Legacy of the Dragonborn Guide). As I've been customizing my experience over time, there are 3 mods that I have disabled:
Frostfall - A wonderful mod that simulates weathers effects on your person and requires you to mitigate those effects through clothing, warm fires, etc. It also disables fast travel and focuses on traveling through the use of carriages/boats.
Realistic Needs & Diseases - Another great mod that lets you know when you are getting hungry or thirsty and so you have mitigate by eating something 2 or 3 times and in game day.
Keep it Clean - A bathing mod. Every once in a while, you should bathe to remove the negative effects of becoming dirty. Perhaps once a day is enough.
There are many mods that work in tandem with these to try and develop a more realistic feel to the game. I was excited to try this new way of playing Skyrim in a fully featured way like this combination of mods seems to offer. And I did play for quite a while like that.
Eventually though, the veil of pretend realism faded. It began to become busy work. When it came to food and water, I was pressing a "b" and "n" keybind to stave off hunger and thirst. When it came to warmth, I had to change clothes in and out whenever I started to get cold. Sometimes I used a quick access wheel to build a fire to get warm. And when it came to cleaning, every single day, I would go to an Inn and pay them 10 gold to clean myself.
In the end, I was never in any danger and nothing about it was difficult. You get small buffs for maintaining yourself and small to large debuffs for ignoring them. It was just adding busy work to everything and honestly, I just felt like it was wasting my time. What seemed like interesting concepts, ended up being cumbersome and annoying. And the day that I turned these features off, it felt so much better to play.
You see, that's too much. That kind of overuse is predictably cumbersome to players. It does no service to the concepts that some want in their games.
And just as predictable is the reactions from gamers as soon as they hear anything resembling that, an assumption that it will always be too cumbersome.
There is no need to make weather effects always present a need. But in freezing arctic conditions, simply having the proper warm weather wearables is enough.
There is no good reason to force players to eat every game time day. Once in a play session is enough.
But what both things do (if not overdone) is: - add immersion - create more game play for crafts players - add to the economy.
So, I somewhat agree with here. For instance, food crafting was majorly overhauled in these mods and now you can level in cooking and make more and more complex things that give you better and better buffs. You can have these buffs available and this expanded food system without forcing the player to eat 2 or 3 times a day. And it does work pretty well in practice IMO.
You're thinking in terms of a typical Themepark with levels, I believe. That's fine. I think in terms of Sandbox games with much lower power gaps, where that advancement in cooking is much more limited.
It works in either game type, and adds to game play. The critical thing is you don't want it to be a constant hassle to keep up with.
Plus, in an MMORPG, you can add all this to NPCs and/or Pets. If you have a player owned and run city, with NPC guards that need fed, now you have made the cooking skill a rewarding trade skill. The actual actions can be done with contracts and deliveries to the mess hall, with gold coin rewarded upon receipt, and let the game do the actual feeding.
So, you guys think that WoW is/was better than UO, EQ and EQ2?
Anyway, we don't need everything that Amaranthar mentioned. But I do think a little more realism makes more games more immersive and entertaining. And I really don't think I and Amaranthar are alone in that.
Oddly enough, never played UO or EQ1, but WOW was definitely better than EQ2 , at least back in the Vanilla days when both released.
My MMO background was a bit different, going from Lineage1 to DAOC to Shadowbane to Lineage 2 and then to WOW.
Post WOW I tried LOTRO, DDO and EVE which became my all time favorite MMORPG which I enjoyed for 10 years.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
You make some good points. Many activities can be assigned to NPCs and automated. Also, if certain activities are made interesting enough, there are other players out there who might enjoy doing them. In this crazy world of ours, people actually exist who like playing something like Farmville. Why not let them play as farmers in an MMORPG? Pretty much any activity can be made into a game. Even things like cooking, shopkeeping, various trades, hunting, fishing, and animal husbandry. Other people might enjoy playing as merchants in an MMORPG. Buying and selling, outwitting and underselling their competitors, organizing caravans, etc.
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
Neither did I play UO or EQ. I was old enough, but I hadn't yet felt the desire to try MMORPGs. Even passed on FFXI although my friends were playing it. Neither did I play EQ2 or WoW when they were first released. However, I do know that I enjoyed EQ2 a lot more than WoW when I tried both years later.
If there was a medieval fantasy MMORPG similar to EVE, I would probably be playing it rather than posting here.
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
No, I'm not proposing permadeath. But if a timesink is entertaining, it can be more than bearable.
EDIT: I missed your other post at first. Well, I would like a game to have realistic time sinks. If you want to play a game that has fantastical time sinks, that's cool. We don't have to play the same game.
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
I read the first two paragraphs, then skipped to the end. It's not like I've never played MUDs before. Not what I want.
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
Are you saying that Game Developers and Game Masters have no power or ability to subtly change the course of a game world (and even individual player actions) through built-in penalties, limitations, and consequences, as well as periodic events? NPCs, mobs, and Game Master-controlled characters (such as deities perhaps) can also be used to maintain balance and keep an online world from spiraling totally out of control.
Not only that, Game Developers can actually <gasp> hire professional gamers and role-players to help maintain order and balance in a persistent, dynamic, virtual world.
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
VERY good read and expressing the many things we all are thinking of.
This is what I feel our true feelings of the sour spots come down too.
Important: Games must be developed by "Art style", not "video game programmers".
Everything you mentioned can still be good but varying degrees of what could turn good into annoying.... the writer of a good book can express in detail taking a sip of a coffee and be nice. Where a bad writer can make a sip of coffee seem like taking up a full page as an annoyance.... It comes down to "Art style".
- Your example if armor and weapon is a good example.... But let it be 20 levels.
- Bag weight sucks this is true, BUT could be good for making difficulty for crafters gathering materials when it's TOO SIMPLE..... yet be set that an adventure will NEVER notice a difference no matter how much they carry.
I remember playing "RIFT" with my friend.... The game had auto tracker for materials.... He insisted on picking EVERY mat, zeg zaging around annoyed the hell out of me. It wasn't his problem but BUT BAD GAME DESIGN.
Even my best mmorpg ever Vanilla WoW was annoying for picking herbs. Make the herb 50% less often and more important when you do.
Modern games are made by "video game programmers" trying to show off high tech.
No quality control placed on a programmer, they do and get away without question. CEO's don't care what their doing.
Comments
And just as predictable is the reactions from gamers as soon as they hear anything resembling that, an assumption that it will always be too cumbersome.
There is no need to make weather effects always present a need. But in freezing arctic conditions, simply having the proper warm weather wearables is enough.
There is no good reason to force players to eat every game time day. Once in a play session is enough.
But what both things do (if not overdone) is:
- add immersion
- create more game play for crafts players
- add to the economy.
Once upon a time....
As to the other stuff that you eventually turned off, I would never have installed them in the first place because I know that they would have annoyed me to no end.
And I can definitely immerse in Skyrim. I'm also replaying it at the moment.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
What are these "features" you want?
This is what I could guess at.
Encumbrance? DDO has that.
Hard 12 person raids with 1% drop rates for good items? DDO has that
Needing to go to the Trading Post to Buy/Sell? - DDO has that.
Item Wear? DDO has that.
Food/Drink/Rest? DDO has that
As a Bonus, DDO is a whole game about resource management, preparation and planning ahead.
The mobs have all kinds of special abilities and 'common sense' strengths and weakness as well as special abilities, like being turned to stone by a medusa, werewolves needing silver weapons to hurt them, right down to things like fire imps and elementals being immune to fire damage.
In fact the only thing on your list that DDO does not have, is the limited communication, which for the life of me, I cannot understand why anyone would NOT want to be able to just send a tell to their friends in game.
I simply do not grasp the need to be required to talk with your buddies in discord to just ask them where they were so you all could meet up and group for a dungeon.
But, DDo does have in game group based voice chat, and you can even mute people without needing to block them.. handy!
What what is it.. you are really looking for?
On paper it sounds like fun. In fact, in pen and paper games, these situations ARE fun. But in an MMORPG where "random internet guy" can choose your fate, this idea has all kinds of negative implications for the player.
1a) PCs & NPCs get hungry and thirsty. They can actually die from hunger & thirst. So, they need to eat and drink occassionally. More so if they've been doing any form of strenuous exercise (especially fighting) or if they haven't gotten enough sleep.
1b) PCs & NPCs need to seek shelter when weather conditions demand it. If not then certain penalites will result. Cold, heat, dampness, dryness, etc., can all effect the stats and performance of characters.
1c) Clothing is necessary for warmth. But warm clothing can be a hindrance in warmer climates. Clothes and armor should also have be subject to damage, wear, and tear.
Durability and decay are factors. Clothing and armor can only be repaired or mended so many times before it becomes worthless. Unless they're magical or divine/infernal (holy/unholy).
1d) PCs & NPCs all need to sleep/rest occasionally in order to restore stamina/energy and to restore hitpoints/magic points more quickly. This wouldn't take long in game terms. Anyone ever played the old Final Fantasy games where your party could sleep in an inn or camp in sleeping bags/tents/cabins in order to fully restore HP & MP? The need to sleep would also make inns and taverns more useful. As would the option for a player to own his or her own home.
However, you do not need YOUR sinks. You don't need real life-like sinks in a game at all. Instead of clothing that wears out or food that gets eaten, you can have completely fantasy sinks.
"My umbra needs to be charged by crystals that are mined by players," is just as valid as, "my pick needs to be repaired using iron mined by players."
it has light sources. torches that burn down, lanterns than can run out of oil, a miner's helmet (that also requires oil) if you want to keep your hands free for fighting. there's even a magic power source that you can charge up and use.... IF you're a magic user. if you aren't, you're stuck with the more mundane methods. and you still have to hold it.
incredibly complex combat full of dodges, blocks (with shield and without), parries, heavy smashing blows, light jabs, visceral body damage to individual body parts, not just a generic HP bar. you want to cut off that goblin's head? you can! disembowel the kobold? sure, you can do that too. but watch out, they can do the same to you.
every weapon type and armor type you can imagine. mix and match. dual wield, or don't. hand-and-a-half swords that you can use one OR two handed as you choose. smaller daggers that you can throw OR stab with. no class/race restrictions on armors or weapons. do what you want. be what you want, as long as you're willing to accept the potential negatives. you might *not* want to wear that heavy plate as a tree-climbing ranger or a sneaky thief... it won't end well for you.
technically food, drink and sleeping are totally optional, but roleplay is STRONGLY encouraged in this game, and LOADS of options are available... eat spicy food that will curl your nose hairs, drink something so strong it makes a dwarf stagger... or just have a sandwich and some water. your choice. you can even do silly things like throw jelly beans at each other. and you can hit a room in the inn (with a locking door if you want a little *ahem* private time with someone... *wink wink*), or even crash in your own bed if you choose to buy a home. there's a limited number of them, by the way. if you really like a particular house location, you have to wait till they build more houses, or someone moves out (which can happen because someone stops making payments. lol).
your clothing doesn't get damaged, but your equipment most certainly does. and if you aren't careful and get it fixed promptly it can be completely destroyed. not only that, metal armor and weapons must be fixed by a blacksmith, and leather and wood must be repaired at the leatherworker's shop. and yeah, certain mobs will break your gear a lot faster than others.
most gear isn't magical in nature, altho a few items from festival merchants have some magical properties. oh yeah. traveling merchants visit the various cities in game on a semi regular basis and sell unique gear, clothing and foods/drinks that cannot be found anywhere else in the game world.
encumbrance is a thing. carrying too much crap? it screws up your ability to evade attacks, your ability to swim, climb, hide. all KINDS of stuff. not only that, but your inventory bags come in various sizes, some gear won't fit into some bags. no, your six foot long zweihander is not gonna fit in your standard sized backpack, you need a special harness to hold it. and just like your gear, your bags fit in body slots. you can't have more than 1 thing on your back, 3 things on your shoulders, etc. so you can have only 1 backpack, but you can have 2 haversacks and a harness.
you'd be in heaven when it came to communication. there is literally NO way to communicate beyond a short distance away from you without magical means. one of the few magical items... headgear that sits on your temples and amplifies your thoughts and allows you to receive the thoughts of others. only people wearing one can communicate long distance, but even that is not gamewide... just across several zones worth of distance.
most travel is by foot. or by horseback. if you have a horse you have to care for it, painstakingly. picking out it's hooves, brushing it and combing the mane and tail, and you need to keep it fed and happy. if you're going hunting, you better find a stable to store it in, or risk it running off and losing all your tack you paid for, or worse, something eating it.
there's no "raids" in the traditional sense. the best gear is made by skilled craftsmen who have honed their craft over the years, and jealously guard their secret recipes of how they combine the various ingredients in different ratios. there are, however, invasions... minding your own business relaxing in town? ya never know when the Goblin King will decide he's had enough of the lower level adventurers killing his minions and attacks the city with the full force of his more advanced army, calling in favors from stronger monsters too... challenging the skills of the most seasoned adventurer, and wreaking havoc in town.
there's pvp, but very little "random ganking". thieves can steal from shops, and even from other players. there is an absolutely incredible amount of verbs to enhance your roleplay.
so what's the hangup for this wonder game?
it's a 24 year old MUD.
if you're still interested, it's called DragonRealms, and it's free for 3 months because of Covid-19
Something along the survival genre.
And failure doesn't bother me. That just gives me more incentive. Failure at a grand plan can also be a memorable experience.
Once upon a time....
You're thinking in terms of a typical Themepark with levels, I believe. That's fine.
I think in terms of Sandbox games with much lower power gaps, where that advancement in cooking is much more limited.
It works in either game type, and adds to game play.
The critical thing is you don't want it to be a constant hassle to keep up with.
Plus, in an MMORPG, you can add all this to NPCs and/or Pets.
If you have a player owned and run city, with NPC guards that need fed, now you have made the cooking skill a rewarding trade skill.
The actual actions can be done with contracts and deliveries to the mess hall, with gold coin rewarded upon receipt, and let the game do the actual feeding.
Once upon a time....
My MMO background was a bit different, going from Lineage1 to DAOC to Shadowbane to Lineage 2 and then to WOW.
Post WOW I tried LOTRO, DDO and EVE which became my all time favorite MMORPG which I enjoyed for 10 years.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
This is what I feel our true feelings of the sour spots come down too.
Important:
Games must be developed by "Art style", not "video game programmers".
Everything you mentioned can still be good but varying degrees of what could turn good into annoying.... the writer of a good book can express in detail taking a sip of a coffee and be nice. Where a bad writer can make a sip of coffee seem like taking up a full page as an annoyance.... It comes down to "Art style".
- Your example if armor and weapon is a good example.... But let it be 20 levels.
- Bag weight sucks this is true, BUT could be good for making difficulty for crafters gathering materials when it's TOO SIMPLE..... yet be set that an adventure will NEVER notice a difference no matter how much they carry.
I remember playing "RIFT" with my friend.... The game had auto tracker for materials.... He insisted on picking EVERY mat, zeg zaging around annoyed the hell out of me. It wasn't his problem but BUT BAD GAME DESIGN.
Even my best mmorpg ever Vanilla WoW was annoying for picking herbs. Make the herb 50% less often and more important when you do.
Modern games are made by "video game programmers" trying to show off high tech.
No quality control placed on a programmer, they do and get away without question. CEO's don't care what their doing.