If it helps, here are some of the things Pantheon is doing to push MMOs forward.
The Pantheon Difference
An MMO Evolved
Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen will likely be a fundamentally different game compared to what you may have experienced playing other modern MMORPGs. From the moment you log in you will notice that the game is more social and has an emphasis on cooperative play. The monsters are often tougher and exploration is more involved. You will need friends in the game and your reputation can either help you progress or hinder it. Death in-game is meaningful and you’ll want to avoid it when possible. You’ll learn your surroundings and the lay of the land, spending meaningful time in each area and not just running through as quickly as possible to collect ten hides. You will need strategy, cunning and endurance to uncover all that Pantheon has to offer. You will find yourself in group and guild chats as you strategize or even just to pass the time between battles. Pantheon is social, thought-provoking, and the memories from your experiences in Terminus will last a lifetime.
Atmosphere/Climate System
One of Pantheon’s tenets is ‘Engage the World!’ When we talk about being a PvE MMO, our definition of ‘environment’ means a lot more than just fighting NPCs -- players will be contending with the world itself. Some regions will be very hot or cold. Some areas within a zone might be enchanted with complete darkness, or silence (meaning spoken spells won't work), or poison or miasma. Small tornados could travel through a region, compelling players to work their way around them, not through them, lest they take significant damage. Also, certain spells may work better or worse (or even only work) depending on the climate or atmosphere -- for example, a 'Call Lightning' spell could deal more damage than a typical ‘lightning bolt’ spell but could only be cast if there is a storm in the region.
In MMOs it is common to find rare items out in the world, by adventuring or by crafting, but abilities and spells are more often learned from trainers or even just given to player when his or her character levels up. In Pantheon, however, many of the more rare and exotic spells and abilities are found not at the local trainer but from a wise sage hiding in the depths of a dungeon or at the top of a remote tower. Learn more
Dynamic NPC Encounter Groups
The world is not static and unchanging – every day is not ‘groundhog’ day. Events occur that can completely change the population of a zone or the population of a group of NPCs within a zone (and the rarer the event, the rarer the rewards -- many exotic items can only be obtained when one of these zone events occur). An example: after you kill some key mobs guarding a hill giant camp, this triggers a zone event that loads up an invading force of Storm Giants who then proceed to attack the Hill Giant camp.
NPC Dispositions and Behaviors
An area we have not seen much innovation in MMORPGs, almost since their inception, is the area of NPC AI. What if certain enemies had different “dispositions” that had to be discovered by the player? Many NPCs in Pantheon will have advanced behaviors, like the propensity to flee if possible, or to stand and fight to the end. Some NPCs will be inclined to help other NPCs in the area, while some will not. Some will target certain classes within the group that is attacking them. NPC’s movement speeds may vary if they feel they are outmatched. While it is too early to go into a lot of detail, some of the different dispositions we are working on include: the Alarmist, the Bully, the Craven, the Opportunist, the Protector, and the Strategist.
Colored Mana System
Different classes will use different colors of mana. Some rare abilities, spells, and prayers will use more than one color of mana. These exotic abilities create an opportunity to sub-class your character, allowing players to customize their class to a degree, but without removing the interdependence between classes that is key to group content and building community.
Progeny System
Players will be able to 'retire' high level characters and then create their children as new characters, but these new characters, the 'progeny', will have certain abilities, stats, etc. that make them slightly yet noticeably better than a completely brand new character (but not to the point that it unbalances things).
Situational Gear
In Pantheon, there often won't simply be a weapon or piece of gear that is the absolute best item for your character’s class and level. Instead, many items will be more situational, and the player will need to ask himself, 'where am I?', 'what am I going to fight next?', and 'who in my group is what class, and what items do they have that may help defeat the next encounter?' Items that protect against climates/atmospheres (areas of extreme heat or cold, or disease, or absolute darkness) will often be important. So also will 'bane' items that are especially effective against certain types of mobs (for example, the Undead, or Dragonkind).
The Perception System
One of the most profound things about Pantheon is how we are designing the game from the ground up so that the Environment truly matters – we want players to care about the world they are in, and why things are the way they are. When you think of MMOs, when is the last time you discovered the meaning, or the history, or the secrets of a person, place or event without being told by a text box? What if we’ve conceived of a way to bring players back to exploring because they are compelled by what they see in front of them - not because a blinking light tells them to go there? In Pantheon, Wizards will be able to perceive things that a Warrior cannot. Through prayer, a Cleric may gain insight into an area, or a creature, that a Rogue could never know. Through our perception system, Pantheon will redefine how the game world becomes known, and how players will work together to progress.
Goals are good, but I have to ask how much of the above has actually been seen in actual gameplay?
Not so much I'm thinking, most of the video I've seen has been of mostly standard stuff seen in other games.
Yeah yeah, save me the "they don't want to spoil the surprise" BS devs love to throw out when the bulk of their project is no where to be seen.
The only real surprise would be if they delivered half of that stuff in my lifetime.
How would you like to be me. I only have 12-18 months and already used up 5 of them, however some linger a few years. Actually I think I'll be beating this thing.
Anyway, I don't think I'll be making it to play this game.
Seen everything listed above in videos in action except the Progeny System.
Oh? What video had colored mana?
Also, Dynamic NPC Encounter Groups have been dropped as a launch day goal, in the past few months, as per Joppa. (they have not demo'd this, either, in any video to date)
Seen everything listed above in videos in action except the Progeny System.
Oh? What video had colored mana?
Also, Dynamic NPC Encounter Groups have been dropped as a launch day goal, in the past few months, as per Joppa. (they have not demo'd this, either, in any video to date)
Ya the colored mana is an old video, they showed it off with a wizard. Would not even known where to look for it. It must be 2 years + I watched it. It's the same video they were teaming outdoors and showed off the environmental stuff.
1. those who believe that crowdfunding is a good thing so they fund and then fret for years (or even stoically pretend they don't fret) and
2. those who wish games in development well, keep their wallet in their pants, watch from the sidelines and have nothing to fret about.
Belief? lol.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
1. those who believe that crowdfunding is a good thing so they fund and then fret for years (or even stoically pretend they don't fret) and
2. those who wish games in development well, keep their wallet in their pants, watch from the sidelines and have nothing to fret about.
Belief? lol.
Then there is the 3rd type who will bash any game weather they will play it or not. And the 4th who likes to look at the positive side of things and does not get upset when things don't turn out.
1. those who believe that crowdfunding is a good thing so they fund and then fret for years (or even stoically pretend they don't fret) and
2. those who wish games in development well, keep their wallet in their pants, watch from the sidelines and have nothing to fret about.
Belief? lol.
Then there is the 3rd type who will bash any game weather they will play it or not. And the 4th who likes to look at the positive side of things and does not get upset when things don't turn out.
Not exclusive to crowdfunded games in development. At least when you're bashing or praising games that have released and are playable you're dealing with what exists not with might or might not ever exist.
People even change their minds.
You for example bashed the shit out of ESO back in 2014 mostly because you found it a PITA to play grouped. Later on you were a huge ESO fan when you went back to it and now the bad performance finally got to you too so you left. That's just called being normal
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
1. those who believe that crowdfunding is a good thing so they fund and then fret for years (or even stoically pretend they don't fret) and
2. those who wish games in development well, keep their wallet in their pants, watch from the sidelines and have nothing to fret about.
Belief? lol.
Then there is the 3rd type who will bash any game weather they will play it or not. And the 4th who likes to look at the positive side of things and does not get upset when things don't turn out.
Not exclusive to crowdfunded games in development. At least when you're bashing or praising games that have released and are playable you're dealing with what exists not with might or might not ever exist.
People even change their minds.
You for example bashed the shit out of ESO back in 2014 mostly because you found it a PITA to play grouped. Later on you were a huge ESO fan when you went back to it and now the bad performance finally got to you too so you left. That's just called being normal
Ya people change. I will say when I dislike a game but I don't rant anymore. Im happier for it.
Many classes with different styles of play. Not talking healer vs tank vs dps. I mean that even among the several melee dps classes they should all play differently. Have a different feel.
Smooth movement.
Big world, but with some shortcuts to getting around. I dont mind it taking long to travel when Im soloing, but this game isnt all about soloing. When our group healer has to log or gets disconnected, I dont want to have to wait for the new healer to run for half hour to get to the group before we can continue.
Enough group content so that MOST of the playerbase will have stuff to do till the expac comes.
1. those who believe that crowdfunding is a good thing so they fund and then fret for years (or even stoically pretend they don't fret) and
2. those who wish games in development well, keep their wallet in their pants, watch from the sidelines and have nothing to fret about.
Belief? lol.
Then there is the 3rd type who will bash any game weather they will play it or not. And the 4th who likes to look at the positive side of things and does not get upset when things don't turn out.
Not exclusive to crowdfunded games in development. At least when you're bashing or praising games that have released and are playable you're dealing with what exists not with might or might not ever exist.
People even change their minds.
You for example bashed the shit out of ESO back in 2014 mostly because you found it a PITA to play grouped. Later on you were a huge ESO fan when you went back to it and now the bad performance finally got to you too so you left. That's just called being normal
Ya people change. I will say when I dislike a game but I don't rant anymore. Im happier for it.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
That is a question that is basically asking me to design a mmorpg from scratch,not happening.
I could lay the ground work for what i want to see and even still the implementation of the design ideas needs to be well done.FFXI+Atlas+EQ2+Minecraft,combine those 4 games best design ideas and you have a HQ game.
So looking at the 4 games i mentioned,does it look like VR will deliver?of course not,hence why i don't see me playing down the road.I gave up on mmorpg's,there is just NO WAY i see anyone delivering a AAA game for a very long time.
Even after the 4 games io mentioned,there are still design ideas missing from EVERY mmorpg that SHOULD be in there,so we are not even close,i would say we have so far barely even AA let alone AAA mmorpg's.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
If it helps, here are some of the things Pantheon is doing to push MMOs forward.
The Pantheon Difference
An MMO Evolved
Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen will likely be a fundamentally different game compared to what you may have experienced playing other modern MMORPGs. From the moment you log in you will notice that the game is more social and has an emphasis on cooperative play. The monsters are often tougher and exploration is more involved. You will need friends in the game and your reputation can either help you progress or hinder it. Death in-game is meaningful and you’ll want to avoid it when possible. You’ll learn your surroundings and the lay of the land, spending meaningful time in each area and not just running through as quickly as possible to collect ten hides. You will need strategy, cunning and endurance to uncover all that Pantheon has to offer. You will find yourself in group and guild chats as you strategize or even just to pass the time between battles. Pantheon is social, thought-provoking, and the memories from your experiences in Terminus will last a lifetime.
Atmosphere/Climate System
One of Pantheon’s tenets is ‘Engage the World!’ When we talk about being a PvE MMO, our definition of ‘environment’ means a lot more than just fighting NPCs -- players will be contending with the world itself. Some regions will be very hot or cold. Some areas within a zone might be enchanted with complete darkness, or silence (meaning spoken spells won't work), or poison or miasma. Small tornados could travel through a region, compelling players to work their way around them, not through them, lest they take significant damage. Also, certain spells may work better or worse (or even only work) depending on the climate or atmosphere -- for example, a 'Call Lightning' spell could deal more damage than a typical ‘lightning bolt’ spell but could only be cast if there is a storm in the region.
In MMOs it is common to find rare items out in the world, by adventuring or by crafting, but abilities and spells are more often learned from trainers or even just given to player when his or her character levels up. In Pantheon, however, many of the more rare and exotic spells and abilities are found not at the local trainer but from a wise sage hiding in the depths of a dungeon or at the top of a remote tower. Learn more
Dynamic NPC Encounter Groups
The world is not static and unchanging – every day is not ‘groundhog’ day. Events occur that can completely change the population of a zone or the population of a group of NPCs within a zone (and the rarer the event, the rarer the rewards -- many exotic items can only be obtained when one of these zone events occur). An example: after you kill some key mobs guarding a hill giant camp, this triggers a zone event that loads up an invading force of Storm Giants who then proceed to attack the Hill Giant camp.
NPC Dispositions and Behaviors
An area we have not seen much innovation in MMORPGs, almost since their inception, is the area of NPC AI. What if certain enemies had different “dispositions” that had to be discovered by the player? Many NPCs in Pantheon will have advanced behaviors, like the propensity to flee if possible, or to stand and fight to the end. Some NPCs will be inclined to help other NPCs in the area, while some will not. Some will target certain classes within the group that is attacking them. NPC’s movement speeds may vary if they feel they are outmatched. While it is too early to go into a lot of detail, some of the different dispositions we are working on include: the Alarmist, the Bully, the Craven, the Opportunist, the Protector, and the Strategist.
Colored Mana System
Different classes will use different colors of mana. Some rare abilities, spells, and prayers will use more than one color of mana. These exotic abilities create an opportunity to sub-class your character, allowing players to customize their class to a degree, but without removing the interdependence between classes that is key to group content and building community.
Progeny System
Players will be able to 'retire' high level characters and then create their children as new characters, but these new characters, the 'progeny', will have certain abilities, stats, etc. that make them slightly yet noticeably better than a completely brand new character (but not to the point that it unbalances things).
Situational Gear
In Pantheon, there often won't simply be a weapon or piece of gear that is the absolute best item for your character’s class and level. Instead, many items will be more situational, and the player will need to ask himself, 'where am I?', 'what am I going to fight next?', and 'who in my group is what class, and what items do they have that may help defeat the next encounter?' Items that protect against climates/atmospheres (areas of extreme heat or cold, or disease, or absolute darkness) will often be important. So also will 'bane' items that are especially effective against certain types of mobs (for example, the Undead, or Dragonkind).
The Perception System
One of the most profound things about Pantheon is how we are designing the game from the ground up so that the Environment truly matters – we want players to care about the world they are in, and why things are the way they are. When you think of MMOs, when is the last time you discovered the meaning, or the history, or the secrets of a person, place or event without being told by a text box? What if we’ve conceived of a way to bring players back to exploring because they are compelled by what they see in front of them - not because a blinking light tells them to go there? In Pantheon, Wizards will be able to perceive things that a Warrior cannot. Through prayer, a Cleric may gain insight into an area, or a creature, that a Rogue could never know. Through our perception system, Pantheon will redefine how the game world becomes known, and how players will work together to progress.
For me, I don't necessarily need to see features to believe.
I would like to see a GOOD WHOLESOME VIDEO, much like what Ashes of Creation and so many others are doing..... Lots of players cities and towns, groups coming together naturally and not just LOGGING 6 PLAYERS INTO A DEMO PROGRAM.
Visionary Realms is not displaying a game in the making, but a prototype, or practice fields...... Sure it could be taking as PART OF ZONES. But it could also be taken as CLIPPED SEGMENTS.
Intrepid Studios displays prof-of-life along with an entertaining video. Not just a simple program to load a few managers and maybe a guest on to a screen.
Maybe it's their unique style, or they don't care, or even feel it's a waist of production time to show a game in the making..... Instead, we get a few friends screwing around on a screen fighting one mob after another.
Goals are only good if they have a budget and time frame associated with them. Confidence in the development only comes when the project manager demonstrates that the goals are being met in a timely manner.
Alpha progression, play through streaming, media access I don't care but talking heads theory crafting fancy stuff instead of demonstrating progress does not inspire confidence.
I gave some money once I started seeing real progress, I fully know that means no guarantees and final game design could very well be different from initial promises.
I am also comfortable with the idea that it very well might not launch. I would even go so far as to say I am more in the "it won't launch" camp then "it will launch" and am willing to be pleasantly surprised.
Sovrath have you ever heard of a game call Chronical of Elyria? if not there is a link to the you tube video below to explaining what happend.
I am wondering what is your opnion on that situation?
My opinion still holds.
"don't give money to any project where you EXPECT you are going to get a return or get "exactly" what is promised.
They say it right up front. The projects can change and there is no guarantee. So why would anyone give money knowing that unless they wanted to help out and also wouldn't be set back by giving money?
And if someone made promises and couldn't keep them then "lesson learned" don't give money to these things.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
For me, I don't necessarily need to see features to believe.
I would like to see a GOOD WHOLESOME VIDEO, much like what Ashes of Creation and so many others are doing..... Lots of players cities and towns, groups coming together naturally and not just LOGGING 6 PLAYERS INTO A DEMO PROGRAM.
Visionary Realms is not displaying a game in the making, but a prototype, or practice fields...... Sure it could be taking as PART OF ZONES. But it could also be taken as CLIPPED SEGMENTS.
Intrepid Studios displays prof-of-life along with an entertaining video. Not just a simple program to load a few managers and maybe a guest on to a screen.
Maybe it's their unique style, or they don't care, or even feel it's a waist of production time to show a game in the making..... Instead, we get a few friends screwing around on a screen fighting one mob after another.
No display of credibility of a real game.
Pantheon has shown more of their game with people teaming doing so then Ashes. I am backing both games and watch everything both studios have put out. If your not seeing it, your not looking.
I think it will happen and I believe. It will be a Joyous day when it launches, even if it is a bad launch lol. I have waited for a new MMORPG that comes from old ideas. EQ, VG, etc. It will be worth the wait!
I've never felt it was going to be old school, just based on those ideas utilizing modern mechanics. And I based these notions on what Brad McQuaid was saying in interviews and in writeups--he made it very clear Pantheon wasn't going to be a remastering of EQ. However, thinking back on everything, my concern right now is making this a modern mmorpg with some links to the past might lead to it being a watered down MMORPG, such that it doesn't appeal to the old school audience or the new ones.
Old school players can play emu or some obscure niche MMORPGs--or like i was doing playing the Agnarr server in Everquest. New audiences can play a plethora of offerings, or just continue playing WoW R/C. Players today are entrenched. Contrary to popular conception, there're a lot of options now, more than there have ever been. MANY players are choosing to continue playing old MMORPGs (including WoW!). What can a new MMORPG do?
It requires a VERY good MMORPG to pull players away from their foxhole utopia. If Pantheon can manage to evolve the genre somehow it'll likely fail to please the old school audience, whilst maybe managing to appeal to the latest ones, but the odds it'll pull a WoW-esque financial success are slim.
First of all, WoW had many millions of dollars in its development budget with some of the best talent at the time. Pantheon doesn't. Typically to compete with AAA development houses need a large budget. That's not exaggeration, it's just how things work in the real world. End result is it's high likely to be just another forgettable WoW-clone of subpar quality. Second of all, appealing to a modern audience is difficult with Pantheon's history. It has too many ties to old school audiences, meaning whatever it creates will carry that baggage.
Appealing to the old school audience drastically reduces its financial success. Just like new audiences, the old school audience is entrenched. The likelihood it can draw a respectable permanent following is despairingly low--how can you beat relatively FREE emu's?? So unless it has very conservatively managed its budget with depressing expectations, it'll bankrupt fast.
So in all probability, its chances are low either way. And that's why I my hopes are dashed. I still have faith it'll release at some point, even if it does in a broken state.
Somebody eventually will reelease an aamzing mmorpg on a tiny budget, sort of like BDO, but that's not something you can expect or predict for just any mmorpg. The hard and cold truth is the vast majority of mmorpgs are forgettable and die early, or linger in miserable undeath. And even things that do well never knew it in production. As example, STar Wars and Jaws were both huge financial success, but during production it was hell. They wallowed and despaired, fought on through turmoil and adversity as first timers, never knowing how amazingly successful they'd be.
If it helps, here are some of the things Pantheon is doing to push MMOs forward.
The Pantheon Difference
(skip)
For me, I don't necessarily need to see features to believe.
I would like to see a GOOD WHOLESOME VIDEO, much like what Ashes of Creation and so many others are doing..... Lots of players cities and towns, groups coming together naturally and not just LOGGING 6 PLAYERS INTO A DEMO PROGRAM.
Visionary Realms is not displaying a game in the making, but a prototype, or practice fields...... Sure it could be taking as PART OF ZONES. But it could also be taken as CLIPPED SEGMENTS.
Intrepid Studios displays prof-of-life along with an entertaining video. Not just a simple program to load a few managers and maybe a guest on to a screen.
Maybe it's their unique style, or they don't care, or even feel it's a waist of production time to show a game in the making..... Instead, we get a few friends screwing around on a screen fighting one mob after another.
No display of credibility of a real game.
Delete, i tink you make a strong point. However, sometimes the more information you see, the more bulls*** you're seeing. YOu know, well as I do, early gameplay videos are mostly garbage. It never stays the same. They're always chanign in development, removing entire systems, and even after development they're still changing with major patches. Still, your point stands, and I think we should have seen more content in videos, however given what I know so far, I expect Pantehon has much more content work behind the scenes. And also keep in mind content can be interlinked with the class design and mechanics, so rushing early on content work can be like putting the horse before the cart. Evenso, you're still right.
I always go back to 2009-10. Druign the time, there were two major development teams working on Everquest classic emu servers. There was project1999 and eqclassic.org. Only one of them succeeded. I think the reason eqclassic.org failed was because it became mired in trying to reproduce the orgiinal experience, and also I think the talent on the project1999 team was much greater. Project1999's pace never lagged behind its ambitions either. Eqclassic kept being delayed and it always seemed t obe carrying an immense weight. The result is we saw project1999 release early, with enormous publicity in the EQ classic community, and eqclassic.org fel into sad obscurity.
One of my greatest moments as a MMORPG player was when I logged into proejct1999 for the first time. It all happened again! I discoverd during those days there was no such thing as rose tinted glasses, at least not for me. It was exactly as I rememberd it. I had so much fun. I enjoyed how it played, not its nostalgic memroy. The only othjer expeirence in my life can compare was when I first played Wurm Online. Wurm Online floored me with amazement. Nothing as at the time compared, and even now nothing as struck me in such a mesmerizing way. It was so immeasruably immersive. I think the biggest wreason I felt that way was because hte world was dangerous and evolved. It was living. I, fearing for my life, standing in a clearing looking up in the night at the stars and that's when I knew nothing else in my life at the time compared. That feeling hit me a couple times later too. It was like I was in another world.
It's that combination of dangerous + sandbox + organic + open world.
I think it will happen and I believe. It will be a Joyous day when it launches, even if it is a bad launch lol. I have waited for a new MMORPG that comes from old ideas. EQ, VG, etc. It will be worth the wait!
I've never felt it was going to be old school, just based on those ideas utilizing modern mechanics. And I based these notions on what Brad McQuaid was saying in interviews and in writeups--he made it very clear Pantheon wasn't going to be a remastering of EQ. However, thinking back on everything, my concern right now is making this a modern mmorpg with some links to the past might lead to it being a watered down MMORPG, such that it doesn't appeal to the old school audience or the new ones.
Old school players can play emu or some obscure niche MMORPGs--or like i was doing playing the Agnarr server in Everquest. New audiences can play a plethora of offerings, or just continue playing WoW R/C. Players today are entrenched. Contrary to popular conception, there're a lot of options now, more than there have ever been. MANY players are choosing to continue playing old MMORPGs (including WoW!). What can a new MMORPG do?
It requires a VERY good MMORPG to pull players away from their foxhole utopia. If Pantheon can manage to evolve the genre somehow it'll likely fail to please the old school audience, whilst maybe managing to appeal to the latest ones, but the odds it'll pull a WoW-esque financial success are slim.
First of all, WoW had many millions of dollars in its development budget with some of the best talent at the time. Pantheon doesn't. Typically to compete with AAA development houses need a large budget. That's not exaggeration, it's just how things work in the real world. End result is it's high likely to be just another forgettable WoW-clone of subpar quality. Second of all, appealing to a modern audience is difficult with Pantheon's history. It has too many ties to old school audiences, meaning whatever it creates will carry that baggage.
Appealing to the old school audience drastically reduces its financial success. Just like new audiences, the old school audience is entrenched. The likelihood it can draw a respectable permanent following is despairingly low--how can you beat relatively FREE emu's?? So unless it has very conservatively managed its budget with depressing expectations, it'll bankrupt fast.
Very true. It takes a substantial effort to dislodge people from an existing interest. People become vested in an activity until the point where it becomes a habit. It will take a lot to overcome that tendency, regardless of what type of game the people are loyal to -- either older games or newer games.
I know several people who are still subscribing to EQ1. They simply can't let their original character go. They have invested too much emotionally into building that character, making friends, acquiring gear and even social things like establishing a reputation and gaining status. Giving that up to start over in another game is just too much work.
This kind of attitude weakens the appeal of newer games. I expect some companies are going to find out exactly how difficult it is to attract customers, and the cost for that. Human nature is to stay with the old, and not abandon the tried-and-true willy-nilly for the next sparkly thing that comes along. Many of us here hang on to old clothes as if were gold.
I've thought that all these new games espousing the old school play are fighting over the same group of players. I think they have failed to recognize that the people they are trying to attract are already playing another game and these players are going to have to be enticed to the new product. 'If you build it, they will come' might make for a good movie, it isn't a viable business plan. Too many of these in-development games haven't accounted for that, and have failed/are failing to plan on how to dislodge customers from existing habits to come to them.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
And if someone made promises and couldn't keep them then "lesson learned" don't give money to these things.
Bingo
Thank you for the response.
I think you have made the point I have been trying to convey. Do not give money to crowd funding MMO that
lie. Let’s look at what VR has done
shall we.
·
VR promised they could make an MMO for 800K this
is a lie MMOS taking 10s of millions to make.
Please see link below.
·
VR said all the money for the Kickstarter was
for the game (sorry to beat a dead horse) well we all know this is a lie
I could go on and on, but you get the picture, I could fill
pages with all the lies VR has told over the years. You seem like an intelligent person; I just fail
to see how you cannot see the similarities between Pantheon and Chronicles of Elyria.
KickStarter promises are contingent on a successful campaign. "If we raise $800k, then we will make this game."
If X, then Y. Without X, you don't get Y...
So they're not "lies" when the campaign fails. No agreement was ever made.
They received a grand total of $0 from KS. It's ludicrous to expect them to be able to keep their original timeline, with no funding.
KickStarter promises are contingent on a successful campaign. "If we raise $800k, then we will make this game."
If X, then Y. Without X, you don't get Y...
So they're not "lies" when the campaign fails. No agreement was ever made.
They received a grand total of $0 from KS. It's ludicrous to expect them to be able to keep their original timeline, with no funding.
I think that's the bigger point.
We don't really know if there are "lies" or not. We can see their presentation.
One of the reasons I didn't give to this project's kickstarter was that there was nothing to show. They had nothing.
I only ever give to projects that I "think" will launch based upon what is shown and possibly who is working on it.
The problem is people just don't know what they are giving to and what they are looking at.
Kickstarter is about giving money to help a project along and "hopefully" it will launch.
that's it. That's where it ends.
Some people can't grasp that.
Had I given money to Chronicles of Elyria I would have given it knowing it was 'gone and we'll see.'
Back to "people don't know what they are looking at."
Recently I saw a project that was asking 29k. They showed, what looked like, a finished game. There was a lot there. Someone then said "they are kidding themselves if they think 29k will make a game."
From what I saw they already had a game and 29k seeemed like it was more about finishing and some marketing.
Contrast that with someone asking for 1 million for an mmorpg. "Well, that's a lot of money so certainly they should be able to make it for 1 million"
And as we know that's not true. People need to better understand what they are giving to and what the money will be used for. Annnnd come to terms that they might not see it again.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
If it helps, here are some of the things Pantheon is doing to push MMOs forward.
The Pantheon Difference
An MMO Evolved
Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen will likely be a fundamentally different game compared to what you may have experienced playing other modern MMORPGs. From the moment you log in you will notice that the game is more social and has an emphasis on cooperative play. The monsters are often tougher and exploration is more involved. You will need friends in the game and your reputation can either help you progress or hinder it. Death in-game is meaningful and you’ll want to avoid it when possible. You’ll learn your surroundings and the lay of the land, spending meaningful time in each area and not just running through as quickly as possible to collect ten hides. You will need strategy, cunning and endurance to uncover all that Pantheon has to offer. You will find yourself in group and guild chats as you strategize or even just to pass the time between battles. Pantheon is social, thought-provoking, and the memories from your experiences in Terminus will last a lifetime.
Atmosphere/Climate System
One of Pantheon’s tenets is ‘Engage the World!’ When we talk about being a PvE MMO, our definition of ‘environment’ means a lot more than just fighting NPCs -- players will be contending with the world itself. Some regions will be very hot or cold. Some areas within a zone might be enchanted with complete darkness, or silence (meaning spoken spells won't work), or poison or miasma. Small tornados could travel through a region, compelling players to work their way around them, not through them, lest they take significant damage. Also, certain spells may work better or worse (or even only work) depending on the climate or atmosphere -- for example, a 'Call Lightning' spell could deal more damage than a typical ‘lightning bolt’ spell but could only be cast if there is a storm in the region.
In MMOs it is common to find rare items out in the world, by adventuring or by crafting, but abilities and spells are more often learned from trainers or even just given to player when his or her character levels up. In Pantheon, however, many of the more rare and exotic spells and abilities are found not at the local trainer but from a wise sage hiding in the depths of a dungeon or at the top of a remote tower. Learn more
Dynamic NPC Encounter Groups
The world is not static and unchanging – every day is not ‘groundhog’ day. Events occur that can completely change the population of a zone or the population of a group of NPCs within a zone (and the rarer the event, the rarer the rewards -- many exotic items can only be obtained when one of these zone events occur). An example: after you kill some key mobs guarding a hill giant camp, this triggers a zone event that loads up an invading force of Storm Giants who then proceed to attack the Hill Giant camp.
NPC Dispositions and Behaviors
An area we have not seen much innovation in MMORPGs, almost since their inception, is the area of NPC AI. What if certain enemies had different “dispositions” that had to be discovered by the player? Many NPCs in Pantheon will have advanced behaviors, like the propensity to flee if possible, or to stand and fight to the end. Some NPCs will be inclined to help other NPCs in the area, while some will not. Some will target certain classes within the group that is attacking them. NPC’s movement speeds may vary if they feel they are outmatched. While it is too early to go into a lot of detail, some of the different dispositions we are working on include: the Alarmist, the Bully, the Craven, the Opportunist, the Protector, and the Strategist.
Colored Mana System
Different classes will use different colors of mana. Some rare abilities, spells, and prayers will use more than one color of mana. These exotic abilities create an opportunity to sub-class your character, allowing players to customize their class to a degree, but without removing the interdependence between classes that is key to group content and building community.
Progeny System
Players will be able to 'retire' high level characters and then create their children as new characters, but these new characters, the 'progeny', will have certain abilities, stats, etc. that make them slightly yet noticeably better than a completely brand new character (but not to the point that it unbalances things).
Situational Gear
In Pantheon, there often won't simply be a weapon or piece of gear that is the absolute best item for your character’s class and level. Instead, many items will be more situational, and the player will need to ask himself, 'where am I?', 'what am I going to fight next?', and 'who in my group is what class, and what items do they have that may help defeat the next encounter?' Items that protect against climates/atmospheres (areas of extreme heat or cold, or disease, or absolute darkness) will often be important. So also will 'bane' items that are especially effective against certain types of mobs (for example, the Undead, or Dragonkind).
The Perception System
One of the most profound things about Pantheon is how we are designing the game from the ground up so that the Environment truly matters – we want players to care about the world they are in, and why things are the way they are. When you think of MMOs, when is the last time you discovered the meaning, or the history, or the secrets of a person, place or event without being told by a text box? What if we’ve conceived of a way to bring players back to exploring because they are compelled by what they see in front of them - not because a blinking light tells them to go there? In Pantheon, Wizards will be able to perceive things that a Warrior cannot. Through prayer, a Cleric may gain insight into an area, or a creature, that a Rogue could never know. Through our perception system, Pantheon will redefine how the game world becomes known, and how players will work together to progress.
IMO they are undertaking too many things....Climate system, perception, climbing, etc really are things that should be worked on later. They just need to focus on the world and get the basics down. These other things are fluff that just drag the game down to the point where it may never launch.
If it helps, here are some of the things Pantheon is doing to push MMOs forward.
The Pantheon Difference
An MMO Evolved
Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen will likely be a fundamentally different game compared to what you may have experienced playing other modern MMORPGs. From the moment you log in you will notice that the game is more social and has an emphasis on cooperative play. The monsters are often tougher and exploration is more involved. You will need friends in the game and your reputation can either help you progress or hinder it. Death in-game is meaningful and you’ll want to avoid it when possible. You’ll learn your surroundings and the lay of the land, spending meaningful time in each area and not just running through as quickly as possible to collect ten hides. You will need strategy, cunning and endurance to uncover all that Pantheon has to offer. You will find yourself in group and guild chats as you strategize or even just to pass the time between battles. Pantheon is social, thought-provoking, and the memories from your experiences in Terminus will last a lifetime.
Atmosphere/Climate System
One of Pantheon’s tenets is ‘Engage the World!’ When we talk about being a PvE MMO, our definition of ‘environment’ means a lot more than just fighting NPCs -- players will be contending with the world itself. Some regions will be very hot or cold. Some areas within a zone might be enchanted with complete darkness, or silence (meaning spoken spells won't work), or poison or miasma. Small tornados could travel through a region, compelling players to work their way around them, not through them, lest they take significant damage. Also, certain spells may work better or worse (or even only work) depending on the climate or atmosphere -- for example, a 'Call Lightning' spell could deal more damage than a typical ‘lightning bolt’ spell but could only be cast if there is a storm in the region.
In MMOs it is common to find rare items out in the world, by adventuring or by crafting, but abilities and spells are more often learned from trainers or even just given to player when his or her character levels up. In Pantheon, however, many of the more rare and exotic spells and abilities are found not at the local trainer but from a wise sage hiding in the depths of a dungeon or at the top of a remote tower. Learn more
Dynamic NPC Encounter Groups
The world is not static and unchanging – every day is not ‘groundhog’ day. Events occur that can completely change the population of a zone or the population of a group of NPCs within a zone (and the rarer the event, the rarer the rewards -- many exotic items can only be obtained when one of these zone events occur). An example: after you kill some key mobs guarding a hill giant camp, this triggers a zone event that loads up an invading force of Storm Giants who then proceed to attack the Hill Giant camp.
NPC Dispositions and Behaviors
An area we have not seen much innovation in MMORPGs, almost since their inception, is the area of NPC AI. What if certain enemies had different “dispositions” that had to be discovered by the player? Many NPCs in Pantheon will have advanced behaviors, like the propensity to flee if possible, or to stand and fight to the end. Some NPCs will be inclined to help other NPCs in the area, while some will not. Some will target certain classes within the group that is attacking them. NPC’s movement speeds may vary if they feel they are outmatched. While it is too early to go into a lot of detail, some of the different dispositions we are working on include: the Alarmist, the Bully, the Craven, the Opportunist, the Protector, and the Strategist.
Colored Mana System
Different classes will use different colors of mana. Some rare abilities, spells, and prayers will use more than one color of mana. These exotic abilities create an opportunity to sub-class your character, allowing players to customize their class to a degree, but without removing the interdependence between classes that is key to group content and building community.
Progeny System
Players will be able to 'retire' high level characters and then create their children as new characters, but these new characters, the 'progeny', will have certain abilities, stats, etc. that make them slightly yet noticeably better than a completely brand new character (but not to the point that it unbalances things).
Situational Gear
In Pantheon, there often won't simply be a weapon or piece of gear that is the absolute best item for your character’s class and level. Instead, many items will be more situational, and the player will need to ask himself, 'where am I?', 'what am I going to fight next?', and 'who in my group is what class, and what items do they have that may help defeat the next encounter?' Items that protect against climates/atmospheres (areas of extreme heat or cold, or disease, or absolute darkness) will often be important. So also will 'bane' items that are especially effective against certain types of mobs (for example, the Undead, or Dragonkind).
The Perception System
One of the most profound things about Pantheon is how we are designing the game from the ground up so that the Environment truly matters – we want players to care about the world they are in, and why things are the way they are. When you think of MMOs, when is the last time you discovered the meaning, or the history, or the secrets of a person, place or event without being told by a text box? What if we’ve conceived of a way to bring players back to exploring because they are compelled by what they see in front of them - not because a blinking light tells them to go there? In Pantheon, Wizards will be able to perceive things that a Warrior cannot. Through prayer, a Cleric may gain insight into an area, or a creature, that a Rogue could never know. Through our perception system, Pantheon will redefine how the game world becomes known, and how players will work together to progress.
IMO they are undertaking too many things....Climate system, perception, climbing, etc really are things that should be worked on later. They just need to focus on the world and get the basics down. These other things are fluff that just drag the game down to the point where it may never launch.
I both agree with @Theocritus and disagree with him. I agree that things like a climate system, perception, climbing and other 'systems' are a complete waste of time for the developers. These don't appear to be new or things that will alter the game play. At best, these type of systems appear to be tweaks to existing concepts with a formalized name. At worst, they might be 'throwing a thesaurus' at an old problem.
But I also disagree with the idea of just getting the basics down. For the genre to grow, it must add new systems on top of the basics. Adding new core feature is a very difficult process and must become a part of a new, expanded core. Efforts to add significant new features post-launch haven't really had that much success. So, the best place to introduce new systems is in the development phase.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
What would it take for me to believe? Progress on an actual time table. IMO both things can be true: they *can* be making progress (at least on some things) while not making sufficient progress to realize all that makes up the world of an MMO in a realistic time frame.
What we see now compared to earlier certainly looks better but it's really not informing us of how far along the game world is. It looks like an ever progressing tech demo or something. What about all the zones? The cities? The quests? I feel like we just keep seeing the same thin slice of game but ever more polished.
Considering how much time has gone by this isn't filling me with much confidence that this project is ever going to release TBH. The fact that VR keeps coming up with new ways to stay out of Alpha should be a pretty clear indication that there is no bigger world to play/explore/test or we would be in alpha already. That's my huge red flag. If this game was anywhere near being an "MMO" we would at least be in some sort of alpha.
Everquest had a fairly large amount of content at release and the project went from idea to released in 3 years. Maybe not a fair comparison but does give an idea of what is possible...and EQ was doing literally everything from scratch including MMO netcode because nothing like it had been done before. Pantheon has a basic blueprint and we are 2x as far out as EQ and still not in Alpha. I want to be hopeful and positive but IMO it's not looking too promising at this point.
TLDR: if this game actually goes into alpha with an impressive amount of content that might make me believe but if it moves into alpha with an anemic amount of content after 6 years I doubt this will ever happen (assuming it ever even goes into alpha at all).
Comments
Actually I think I'll be beating this thing.
Anyway, I don't think I'll be making it to play this game.
Also, Dynamic NPC Encounter Groups have been dropped as a launch day goal, in the past few months, as per Joppa. (they have not demo'd this, either, in any video to date)
That it will release?
That it will be enough of a financial success to continue for years after release?
That I will like it, whatever it is?
That it will be something old school and EQ reminiscent?
Put me down for "I don't know" to all those questions.
Until more is known, I have guarded optimism, not belief.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
1. those who believe that crowdfunding is a good thing so they fund and then fret for years (or even stoically pretend they don't fret) and
2. those who wish games in development well, keep their wallet in their pants, watch from the sidelines and have nothing to fret about.
Belief? lol.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
People even change their minds.
You for example bashed the shit out of ESO back in 2014 mostly because you found it a PITA to play grouped. Later on you were a huge ESO fan when you went back to it and now the bad performance finally got to you too so you left. That's just called being normal
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
That is a question that is basically asking me to design a mmorpg from scratch,not happening.
I could lay the ground work for what i want to see and even still the implementation of the design ideas needs to be well done.FFXI+Atlas+EQ2+Minecraft,combine those 4 games best design ideas and you have a HQ game.
So looking at the 4 games i mentioned,does it look like VR will deliver?of course not,hence why i don't see me playing down the road.I gave up on mmorpg's,there is just NO WAY i see anyone delivering a AAA game for a very long time.
Even after the 4 games io mentioned,there are still design ideas missing from EVERY mmorpg that SHOULD be in there,so we are not even close,i would say we have so far barely even AA let alone AAA mmorpg's.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I don't necessarily need to see features to believe.
I would like to see a GOOD WHOLESOME VIDEO, much like what Ashes of Creation and so many others are doing..... Lots of players cities and towns, groups coming together naturally and not just LOGGING 6 PLAYERS INTO A DEMO PROGRAM.
Visionary Realms is not displaying a game in the making, but a prototype, or practice fields...... Sure it could be taking as PART OF ZONES. But it could also be taken as CLIPPED SEGMENTS.
Intrepid Studios displays prof-of-life along with an entertaining video. Not just a simple program to load a few managers and maybe a guest on to a screen.
Maybe it's their unique style, or they don't care, or even feel it's a waist of production time to show a game in the making..... Instead, we get a few friends screwing around on a screen fighting one mob after another.
No display of credibility of a real game.
Alpha progression, play through streaming, media access I don't care but talking heads theory crafting fancy stuff instead of demonstrating progress does not inspire confidence.
"don't give money to any project where you EXPECT you are going to get a return or get "exactly" what is promised.
They say it right up front. The projects can change and there is no guarantee. So why would anyone give money knowing that unless they wanted to help out and also wouldn't be set back by giving money?
And if someone made promises and couldn't keep them then "lesson learned" don't give money to these things.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
We don't really know if there are "lies" or not. We can see their presentation.
One of the reasons I didn't give to this project's kickstarter was that there was nothing to show. They had nothing.
I only ever give to projects that I "think" will launch based upon what is shown and possibly who is working on it.
The problem is people just don't know what they are giving to and what they are looking at.
Kickstarter is about giving money to help a project along and "hopefully" it will launch.
that's it. That's where it ends.
Some people can't grasp that.
Had I given money to Chronicles of Elyria I would have given it knowing it was 'gone and we'll see.'
Back to "people don't know what they are looking at."
Recently I saw a project that was asking 29k. They showed, what looked like, a finished game. There was a lot there. Someone then said "they are kidding themselves if they think 29k will make a game."
From what I saw they already had a game and 29k seeemed like it was more about finishing and some marketing.
Contrast that with someone asking for 1 million for an mmorpg. "Well, that's a lot of money so certainly they should be able to make it for 1 million"
And as we know that's not true. People need to better understand what they are giving to and what the money will be used for. Annnnd come to terms that they might not see it again.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
IMO they are undertaking too many things....Climate system, perception, climbing, etc really are things that should be worked on later. They just need to focus on the world and get the basics down. These other things are fluff that just drag the game down to the point where it may never launch.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
What we see now compared to earlier certainly looks better but it's really not informing us of how far along the game world is. It looks like an ever progressing tech demo or something. What about all the zones? The cities? The quests? I feel like we just keep seeing the same thin slice of game but ever more polished.
Considering how much time has gone by this isn't filling me with much confidence that this project is ever going to release TBH. The fact that VR keeps coming up with new ways to stay out of Alpha should be a pretty clear indication that there is no bigger world to play/explore/test or we would be in alpha already. That's my huge red flag. If this game was anywhere near being an "MMO" we would at least be in some sort of alpha.
Everquest had a fairly large amount of content at release and the project went from idea to released in 3 years. Maybe not a fair comparison but does give an idea of what is possible...and EQ was doing literally everything from scratch including MMO netcode because nothing like it had been done before. Pantheon has a basic blueprint and we are 2x as far out as EQ and still not in Alpha. I want to be hopeful and positive but IMO it's not looking too promising at this point.
TLDR: if this game actually goes into alpha with an impressive amount of content that might make me believe but if it moves into alpha with an anemic amount of content after 6 years I doubt this will ever happen (assuming it ever even goes into alpha at all).