Originally posted by TheWacko Did you click the "I accept these terms" button? If it is stated in the "Terms and Agreement" statement, then you bet... it's something that I agreed to allow them to do. Every time WoW has us Re-approve after a patch, people should actually read what they are accepting. If people are too lazy to actually read what's in the agreement, that is their own fault and/or stupidity.
Does not matter,
The EULA will not and has yet to hold water in a court of law. This has been proven in several court battles already. So quit bringing this point up as its moot.
There's a bit everyone here seems to be missing. They don't have to scan your entire hard drive to find what they want. A registry parsing will pull up whatever they need to know. Why? It don't run in windows without a registry entry. The registry links all the files necessary to run every program on your computer. As to getting info on you? Guess what? They already have it. You gave it to them when you logged on and created your account.
EDIT**
The, It's illegal cause it's my computer, statement that you hear all the time is usually one or more of the hackers that the gaming company is trying to stop. I fail to understand how a person can spend money on purchasing a game, then pay out a monthly fee, and find it fun to hack the game. If you are one of these anal people who feels the only way they can win is to cheat, seek help. No one wins all the time. That's life.
Originally posted by Aramath There's a bit everyone here seems to be missing. They don't have to scan your entire hard drive to find what they want. A registry parsing will pull up whatever they need to know. Why? It don't run in windows without a registry entry. The registry links all the files necessary to run every program on your computer. As to getting info on you? Guess what? They already have it. You gave it to them when you logged on and created your account.
EDIT** The, It's illegal cause it's my computer, statement that you hear all the time is usually one or more of the hackers that the gaming company is trying to stop. I fail to understand how a person can spend money on purchasing a game, then pay out a monthly fee, and find it fun to hack the game. If you are one of these anal people who feels the only way they can win is to cheat, seek help. No one wins all the time. That's life.
Wrong, programs do not have to be in the windows registry to run. I can name numerous programs i use that do not register in windows. I will for sake of argument name a well known one. Winamp, the lite version does not enter a registry value. I know this for a fact because I use it at work since media player sucks and we cannot install stuff on our system.
As for the illegal bs, not everyone who uses third party programs are doing so to cheat. I personally dispise people who cheat in games. However there is in fact a grey area of third party programs that are not programs that give a player any advantage at all, but would still fall under a blanket statement. I could explain it, but honestly I am tired of the debate as I have yet to find someone with the mental aptitude to understand anything not written in black and white in the Eula which 99% of them never bothered to read.
Originally posted by Dekoth Wrong, programs do not have to be in the windows registry to run. I can name numerous programs i use that do not register in windows. I will for sake of argument name a well known one. Winamp, the lite version does not enter a registry value. I know this for a fact because I use it at work since media player sucks and we cannot install stuff on our system. As for the illegal bs, not everyone who uses third party programs are doing so to cheat. I personally dispise people who cheat in games. However there is in fact a grey area of third party programs that are not programs that give a player any advantage at all, but would still fall under a blanket statement. I could explain it, but honestly I am tired of the debate as I have yet to find someone with the mental aptitude to understand anything not written in black and white in the Eula which 99% of them never bothered to read.
That's funny, I use the light version and am looking at the registry entry for it now.
EULA and ToS are contractual agreements between gaming company and gamer. Black and white is what an agreement is. Can the company sue you for breaking the contract? No. Sony Online, the biggest MMO host and gaming company, proved that when they went after that company whose whole purpose was to make money in game and sell it out of game for real cash. Can they refuse to allow you service? Yes. Can you do anything about it if they do refuse you service? No, unless they continue billing you.
What you fail to realize is, most, if not all, games that you install on your computer give you, the purchaser, the right to use the game in the designed format. You don't own it, you simply have the right to use it, as the game developer presents it to you. Using a third party program, be it a cheat or a utility, is not using the game as designed. I can't make claims as to every EULA for every game, but every game I have or have played has had this stipulation in it. Second, because you do not own the game, the gaming company takes ownership of a part of your computer, with your acceptance, because you select accept to install with the EULA and ToS agreement. Therefore, they are not hacking into your computer. They are monitoring their program which they let you use.
Originally posted by Aramath That's funny, I use the light version and am looking at the registry entry for it now. The point is it does not need to. If you uncheck all the options it will not create a registry entry. because it does not need it. Also even the full version of winamp does not need it, before I installed the lite version here I simply copied my winamp folder from my home pc into my USB drive and played it directly off of that. Learn the difference between create an entry and requires an entry. most programs do not require any registry entry.
EULA and ToS are contractual agreements between gaming company and gamer. Black and white is what an agreement is. Can the company sue you for breaking the contract? No. Sony Online, the biggest MMO host and gaming company, proved that when they went after that company whose whole purpose was to make money in game and sell it out of game for real cash. Can they refuse to allow you service? Yes. Can you do anything about it if they do refuse you service? No, unless they continue billing you.
Contractual becomes moot when its non binding and the only negative effect is they can refuse service. That is not what we are debating, the debate is do they have legal right to scan your computer for what they deem as illegal software. Dispite what many want to think with the continueal quoting of the "Well its against the EULA" the fact is EULA's have not and probably will never stand up in court as credible evidence, and as such are not binding. However Illegal entry into a computer has and will continue to hold up in a court of law and outside their specific executable file and things within its realm, should that company attempt to deviate outside of that to search for anything, then it is now classified as a hack attempt and will stand up in court. I mentioned earlier I have no objections to them scanning their own software, however I monitor it quite closely and should they ever make the stupid mistake of scanning outside of their software they will end up in court for illegal entry. In effect they can Scan any transmitable file associated with their program, nothing else.
Originally posted by Dekoth The point is it does not need to. If you uncheck all the options it will not create a registry entry. because it does not need it. Also even the full version of winamp does not need it, before I installed the lite version here I simply copied my winamp folder from my home pc into my USB drive and played it directly off of that. Learn the difference between create an entry and requires an entry. most programs do not require any registry entry. ______________________________________________________________
Ok, I guess if you wanted to select open, go through the file list of what programs are available, select other, go through your hard drive(s), and select your program, you could go without a registry entry. But the first time you associate a program with another program, an entry is made. It does this to remember, I am supposed to use this program to run this file. _________________________________________________________
Contractual becomes moot when its non binding and the only negative effect is they can refuse service. That is not what we are debating, the debate is do they have legal right to scan your computer for what they deem as illegal software. Dispite what many want to think with the continueal quoting of the "Well its against the EULA" the fact is EULA's have not and probably will never stand up in court as credible evidence, and as such are not binding. However Illegal entry into a computer has and will continue to hold up in a court of law and outside their specific executable file and things within its realm, should that company attempt to deviate outside of that to search for anything, then it is now classified as a hack attempt and will stand up in court. I mentioned earlier I have no objections to them scanning their own software, however I monitor it quite closely and should they ever make the stupid mistake of scanning outside of their software they will end up in court for illegal entry. In effect they can Scan any transmitable file associated with their program, nothing else.
Ok, let's just say you are correct. The EULA will not defend a company if they decide to use it as a defense against a person who broke the agreement. Why have we not heard from these companies like IGE, etc., when their accounts become suspended for breaking the EULA or ToS? Plain and simple, not a damn thing they can do about it. You, the user, reserve the right to do business with whomever you want. That same thought applies to the company. If you don't like having to deal with their security measures, go somewhere else. To a game that does not check for hackers and cheaters. See how long you survive without those measures in place.
As long as no stored data or unconsented personal information is sent, I"m perfectly fine with it. More or less, it's the same thing with PunkBuster, which I've gladly used in the past for multiplayer games.
Concerning legality issues, in order to scan your system, you have to run the WoW client. You select to run the program, access the game and accept the license agreement. Even if the agreement is legally void (which I highly doubt), Blizzard is not scanning your computer, you are. You've run, with your own will and with full knowledge, a program that, among other things, scans your system and sends only one conclusive piece of info ("Hack detected/not detected"). If it was done without your knowledge, like a trojan, that'd indeed be an illegal action.
Currently playing: * City of Heroes: Deggial, Assault Rifle/Devices Blaster. Server: Defiant. * City of Villains: Snakeroot, Plant/Thorns Dominator. Server: Defiant.
Originally posted by TheWacko Did you click the "I accept these terms" button? If it is stated in the "Terms and Agreement" statement, then you bet... it's something that I agreed to allow them to do. Every time WoW has us Re-approve after a patch, people should actually read what they are accepting. If people are too lazy to actually read what's in the agreement, that is their own fault and/or stupidity.
If you actually read through the entire EULA, then you have wayyyy to much freaking time on your hands or have absolutely no life.
But I agree, who cares if they scan my computer. Only reason you would care is if you have something on your computer to be ashamed of. I don't think anyone with any sense at all thinks a godlike company like Blizzard is gonna dip into your paper route money savings account.
Originally posted by anwar Recently a major MMORPG was found to be scanning PCs to control Hackers, I found this question asked on a gamesite and the following was my response, it was a very low traffic website and I found myself wanting to see how more people felt.
So, how do you feel about this?
Not without a court order.
First off, I have no idea how people "hack", but I would assume that someone who can hack also has the know-how to hide it...assuming he knows that the game company might scan.
Second, it seems to me that anyone who developes something as epic as a modern MMORPG should be able to design protections against hackers without resorting to scanning personal computers.
third, I HATE all hackers, botters, cheat sites, etc....seems a game could block usage to ALL 3rd party programs, custom hotkeys, custom UIs, outside voice programs (provide their own so everyone can use if in a group or raid).....block everything that people use to get an "edge", programmers KNOW what hotkeys etc. are needed, provide what they want gamers to use and outlaw everything else....perhaps that would get gamers to learn to use only what tools are provided and even the playing field for the geeks and the normal player.
BUT...when all is said and done...absolutely no scanning without a court order...computers are getting to be used too much for everything locked filing cabinets and safes and under the mattress used to be for,.......your bills, your bank accounts, your p0rn, your plans to overtake the government, your own MMORPG you are developing, your second set of books for your business, your diary, your gameplan to become irresistable to the opposite or same sex......you get the point....computer privacy should be protected just as other rights to privacy....even if it means the bad guy gets away occasionally.
Anwar
Aparently you think that when a game scans your computer for hacks, it is some guy with a bag of cheetos haxing your computer. Well, all it really would be a program that looks for any programs that are running at the same time as the game and are some how altering the game. In no way is some l337 Dud3 from a game company checking your pr0n to make sure you don't have any hacks.
If I had to choose who I wanted to scan my computer, it wouldn't be some l337 k1ddy thats for sure.
I am willing to give up some personal freedoms and privacy in order to curb hacking.
Hacking and cheating is way out of control in MMOG's today.
I figure if you have nothing to hide, you shouldn't worry about it.
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it." Brad McQuaid Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc. Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes www.vanguardsoh
About 99% of people playing any online games like PunkBuster
That fifty thousand thousand 12 year olds just left their Gamecube and started with WoW does NOT mean PunkBusters are bad, it just mean idiots are taking over the PC games.
"This is not a game to be tossed aside lightly. It should be thrown with great force"
If the company is behaving responsible as in notifying their community beforehand, etc, which is what EQII, Blizzard, and whoever uses PunkBuster has done, then I have no problem with it.
Sometimes it takes more involved methods to stop or deter hacking, and if a player does not agree, they are more then welcome to not play the game.
Originally posted by Rattrap What can i tell you , this is horrible newsBlizzard turned from one of most respected companies - to very lowest mud !I was subscribed to WoW for wopping 2 months after which I had to cancel - because of apsolutely rude , lying and anti player support. I can tell you the people playing WoW are the same sheep we see in everyday life constantly licking the a** of the boss or being the favorit student. They take constant beating - and they like it. Makes you wonder BUT THIS , scaning the computer. It has to be the worst thing a company ever made! Heck even Microsoft does not dare!I dont want my computer to be scaned. I do have all kind of dubious things on my HD. And who ever claims he has not , is lying. (or doesnt know) - Dont you know that even a simple mp3 that you downloaded from some site could be illegal? And what than... It is not what they will do with the information (although they showed to be very evil company) , it is what they could do! Man they can blackmail almost 90% of WoW players now.Thanks for the warning. I am going to burn my copy of WoW
sorry but i have to say that the thing you said about the mp3 is not true here, downloading IS legal in holland but uploading is illegal here. on topic: i don't care if they scan my harddisk i have no cheats/hacks or anything and if they might have other intentions with the scan they will soon here about that from goverment organisations^^
I just want to reply to the guy that stated that ALL the programs you run in windows get entered into the Windows registry. Thet's simply not true. Go download Dev C++, make a "hello world" app, compile it and run. It executes just fine and doesn't require a registry key. Likewise, I can make any program into a windows console app and have access to all the API goodies that windows offers without ever having to register the program with windows. For bots and cheats, I don't really need all those goodies anyway. I just need pointers to the right memory addresses and network ports (Yeah, I know they're the same thing) and I'm good to go. In fact, out of all the stuff I've ever coded, I've never had to make a single key for the windows registry. Never really noticed that before......
Considering +90% of the windows OS in use in asia (esp china) are hacked / duped copies, MS wanted to deny updating those illegal OS in the MS update system. China in response is developing their own OS and cpu systems. They blanketly choose to ignore international copyrite guidelines. Similarly US legislature types wanted to allow companies to actually destroy/unreparably harm systems that violated copyrite protected data. Holywood and music types want similar protection against people that illegally obtain their products they sell for excessive profit.
Taken to gaming, you pay a subscription for the privilage of accessing the provider's servers, with limitations in place spelled out in their EULA. There is fine print about your having to agree to not back engineer their software nor interfeer with operations in their game... to try and provide an even playing ground for all subscribers. So, the company has to detect illegal/improper access to their site. To just say they should ONLY have those protection mechanisms in place on their end is simplistic. That is like saying terrorist should only be blocked by excessive defences erected at known/all/any possible target destination or begin an investigation only AFTER an incident, after the damage is done. It is a proven fact, go after those doing mischief to stop them before they do serious damage... Oh, those hack, illegal, dupe programs were just there for investigational purposes, they never ever would be used on your game (... hurry guys pull the plug and get that anonymous login program up on the back up system so we can hide all the assets we have so far... otherwise we loose 10s of $1000s assets we market on flebay , ige & taobau...) mayby those programs were there when i bought this from the trunk of the guy selling computers last week, yea thats the ticket, those programs were already there when i bought this system!
Rest assured much of your kiddie porn you have archived is lower on the tba prosecution heirarchy, or their sending notice to MS about your illegal copy of Wxp is somewhat outside the scope of their anti gaming investigation(s.) Those playing by the rules have to submit to inspection to bring to light those trying to skate by illegally. (Except Sigil's Saga of Heroes, they are kindof tight with MS.)
Anwar ? If you are refering to the microsoft patching problem (about how they are scanning peoples machines for patching things such as ex. Microsoft Office) then im against the idea.
Exactly!!! we should get them before they kill/rape/steal!!! I say we institute a death penalty on anyone that SEEMS likely to comit a violent act!! I say we chop off the hands of anyone that LOOKS like they might be THINKING of stealing something!!! I think we should have cameras installed in the houses of every citizen to monitor what they're doing every minute of everyday so that we can ALL BE SAFE!!! Furthermore, we should just nuke the rest of the world to prevent any further attacks on our soveriegn (sic. sacred) nation!!!
And with that sarcasm out of the way....... Those that would trade liberty for security deserve niether. Or to paraphrase Ray Bradbury from his book "Fahrenhiet 451" -- Ask for no safety or gaurentees, no such creature ever exsisted.
I have no problems keeping people honest in games. If I really thought that Blizzard was looking at anything on my HD other than WoW or scanning active memory for cheat/bot scripts, I'd be the first person to scream bloody murder. They aren't. If they were, I could find out really, really quickly. Just as the barber shaves his own face at the end of the day, so to must we watch the watchmen.
Originally posted by Aramath Originally posted by Dekoth The point is it does not need to. If you uncheck all the options it will not create a registry entry. because it does not need it. Also even the full version of winamp does not need it, before I installed the lite version here I simply copied my winamp folder from my home pc into my USB drive and played it directly off of that. Learn the difference between create an entry and requires an entry. most programs do not require any registry entry. ______________________________________________________________ Ok, I guess if you wanted to select open, go through the file list of what programs are available, select other, go through your hard drive(s), and select your program, you could go without a registry entry. But the first time you associate a program with another program, an entry is made. It does this to remember, I am supposed to use this program to run this file. _________________________________________________________
Contractual becomes moot when its non binding and the only negative effect is they can refuse service. That is not what we are debating, the debate is do they have legal right to scan your computer for what they deem as illegal software. Dispite what many want to think with the continueal quoting of the "Well its against the EULA" the fact is EULA's have not and probably will never stand up in court as credible evidence, and as such are not binding. However Illegal entry into a computer has and will continue to hold up in a court of law and outside their specific executable file and things within its realm, should that company attempt to deviate outside of that to search for anything, then it is now classified as a hack attempt and will stand up in court. I mentioned earlier I have no objections to them scanning their own software, however I monitor it quite closely and should they ever make the stupid mistake of scanning outside of their software they will end up in court for illegal entry. In effect they can Scan any transmitable file associated with their program, nothing else.Ok, let's just say you are correct. The EULA will not defend a company if they decide to use it as a defense against a person who broke the agreement. Why have we not heard from these companies like IGE, etc., when their accounts become suspended for breaking the EULA or ToS? Plain and simple, not a damn thing they can do about it. You, the user, reserve the right to do business with whomever you want. That same thought applies to the company. If you don't like having to deal with their security measures, go somewhere else. To a game that does not check for hackers and cheaters. See how long you survive without those measures in place.
Nothing personal but you are arguing with someone who writes code, you are dead wrong on windows registry. You do not have to go through all that, most programs do no require a registry entry and can operate normally without it, shortcuts and all. Stop talking about something you obviously have utterly no clue about, I am all for a good debate but at least know what you are talking about. Right now you are just talking out of your ass. Even Jimmy Scythe has called you out on this one.
As for using IGe and companies as far as banned accounts, one you are missing the entire point. We are not talking about the company scanning outgoing packets of information from their game, nor are we talking about the client verifying its DLL's and such are matched. We are talking about that scan going outside of client verification, scanning data that has absolutly nothing to do with the game outside potential malicious associations. As far as companies like IGE getting accounts and such banned, Its cheaper for them to buy another account then to fight it in court in a nutshell. But again We are not rguing a companies right or perogative to ban an account. We are talking about that company being able to scan outside their client data to try and prevent hacks.
They can Scan their client..They can scan their packets..Anything outside of that is untouchable.
Er..... okay. I'm not too sure how to take that one. I'm pretty sure I've just been insulted. I'm not really in the mood to argue about it right now though.
They don't need a court order when you click YES on the TOS. Plain and simple. If you tell Mr. Cop that he can come in, you can't complain! You don't want your kiddie porn/cheats/whatever you think makes you important found then don't click YES. I applaud WoW for doing this. One of the reasons I don't sign back up with DAoC is because of the out of control cheating. I'll gladly let them rummage through anything on my computer. You have a choice!!!!!! Click NO.
[quote]
BUT...when all is said and done...absolutely no scanning without a court order...computers are getting to be used too much for everything locked filing cabinets and safes and under the mattress used to be for,.......your bills, your bank accounts, your p0rn, your plans to overtake the government, your own MMORPG you are developing, your second set of books for your business, your diary, your gameplan to become irresistable to the opposite or same sex......you get the point....computer privacy should be protected just as other rights to privacy....even if it means the bad guy gets away occasionally.
[/quote]
It is protected, nitwit. Click NO. Not a damn thing Blizzard can do about it.
Depends on the level of scanning imo. if its just processes/game folder fine but other then that I dont think they shouldn't be any deeper, and about your credit card they already have it stored in their data base.
eh...oh well, its not like we can stop them. I dont know why this is such a big deal, about 90% of the shareware programs out there come LOADED with spyware and other adware junk, but people use it anyways.
I assume you're talking about Winamp and Kazaa. Most of the shareware I download are games or game related. Milkshape3D, Blender, Dev C++, EMS Freesurfer, PGP and a host of shareware games don't have any spyware on them at all. You are correct though, everything you do online is monitored by someone, somewhere. Google logs IP addresses when you do a search. Most commercial websites also log IP addresses as well as where you went on the site and for how long. People do get spied on everyday and just don't seem to care. Apathy doesn't make it right though. In the case of WoW, they aren't invading your privacy, they're protecting their costumers from abuse. They aren't looking at anything that doesn't apply to their game client and the traffic it produces. It would be totally different if they used it to Kipe your automatic login information from your web browser. They aren't, so it doesn't matter.
Nothing personal but you are arguing with someone who writes code, you are dead wrong on windows registry. You do not have to go through all that, most programs do no require a registry entry and can operate normally without it, shortcuts and all. Stop talking about something you obviously have utterly no clue about, I am all for a good debate but at least know what you are talking about. Right now you are just talking out of your ass. Even Jimmy Scythe has called you out on this one. As for using IGe and companies as far as banned accounts, one you are missing the entire point. We are not talking about the company scanning outgoing packets of information from their game, nor are we talking about the client verifying its DLL's and such are matched. We are talking about that scan going outside of client verification, scanning data that has absolutly nothing to do with the game outside potential malicious associations. As far as companies like IGE getting accounts and such banned, Its cheaper for them to buy another account then to fight it in court in a nutshell. But again We are not rguing a companies right or perogative to ban an account. We are talking about that company being able to scan outside their client data to try and prevent hacks. They can Scan their client..They can scan their packets..Anything outside of that is untouchable.
Well, you are argueing with a network security specialist. It's my job to find illegal software on our network clients and report them to the supervisor of the individual who is using them. A file association key is necessary for a windows native app, i.e. any program that makes the claim to be windows compatable. It may not point directly at the app but the file association is there. Do a registry lookup for winamp. All those mp3, avi, mpeg etc., will be there with an association key, if you have associated them with winamp. Now, if the person makes a program that is not "windows compatable", it could be possible to circumvent this issue using a dos shell or virtual environment. However, since most client hackers are lazy SoBs they usually use another "windows compatable" program to do it, like X-Unleashed. Since you are a programmer, you probably know the saying, don't reinvent the wheel, reuse the code.
All that aside, I again state, if you do not want to deal with the fact that a company is taking a proactive stance versus hacking and 3rd party apps, don't deal with the company. It's that simple. The facts are, you already gave them all the info they need to be damaging. They have your name, address, phone number and CC number. You trust them with all that but do not trust them to be discreet while searching for illegal 3rd party apps and software that is used to destroy a project that cost millions to make.
Comments
Does not matter,
The EULA will not and has yet to hold water in a court of law. This has been proven in several court battles already. So quit bringing this point up as its moot.
There's a bit everyone here seems to be missing. They don't have to scan your entire hard drive to find what they want. A registry parsing will pull up whatever they need to know. Why? It don't run in windows without a registry entry. The registry links all the files necessary to run every program on your computer. As to getting info on you? Guess what? They already have it. You gave it to them when you logged on and created your account.
EDIT**
The, It's illegal cause it's my computer, statement that you hear all the time is usually one or more of the hackers that the gaming company is trying to stop. I fail to understand how a person can spend money on purchasing a game, then pay out a monthly fee, and find it fun to hack the game. If you are one of these anal people who feels the only way they can win is to cheat, seek help. No one wins all the time. That's life.
I don't care, but all this talk of court rooms, legal presidence and big brother is funny as shit.
Once you have a mortgage and ear hair you tend not to really give a rats ass about your hard drive so much.
Wrong, programs do not have to be in the windows registry to run. I can name numerous programs i use that do not register in windows. I will for sake of argument name a well known one. Winamp, the lite version does not enter a registry value. I know this for a fact because I use it at work since media player sucks and we cannot install stuff on our system.
As for the illegal bs, not everyone who uses third party programs are doing so to cheat. I personally dispise people who cheat in games. However there is in fact a grey area of third party programs that are not programs that give a player any advantage at all, but would still fall under a blanket statement. I could explain it, but honestly I am tired of the debate as I have yet to find someone with the mental aptitude to understand anything not written in black and white in the Eula which 99% of them never bothered to read.
That's funny, I use the light version and am looking at the registry entry for it now.
EULA and ToS are contractual agreements between gaming company and gamer. Black and white is what an agreement is. Can the company sue you for breaking the contract? No. Sony Online, the biggest MMO host and gaming company, proved that when they went after that company whose whole purpose was to make money in game and sell it out of game for real cash. Can they refuse to allow you service? Yes. Can you do anything about it if they do refuse you service? No, unless they continue billing you.
What you fail to realize is, most, if not all, games that you install on your computer give you, the purchaser, the right to use the game in the designed format. You don't own it, you simply have the right to use it, as the game developer presents it to you. Using a third party program, be it a cheat or a utility, is not using the game as designed. I can't make claims as to every EULA for every game, but every game I have or have played has had this stipulation in it. Second, because you do not own the game, the gaming company takes ownership of a part of your computer, with your acceptance, because you select accept to install with the EULA and ToS agreement. Therefore, they are not hacking into your computer. They are monitoring their program which they let you use.
Ok, I guess if you wanted to select open, go through the file list of what programs are available, select other, go through your hard drive(s), and select your program, you could go without a registry entry. But the first time you associate a program with another program, an entry is made. It does this to remember, I am supposed to use this program to run this file. _________________________________________________________
Contractual becomes moot when its non binding and the only negative effect is they can refuse service. That is not what we are debating, the debate is do they have legal right to scan your computer for what they deem as illegal software. Dispite what many want to think with the continueal quoting of the "Well its against the EULA" the fact is EULA's have not and probably will never stand up in court as credible evidence, and as such are not binding. However Illegal entry into a computer has and will continue to hold up in a court of law and outside their specific executable file and things within its realm, should that company attempt to deviate outside of that to search for anything, then it is now classified as a hack attempt and will stand up in court. I mentioned earlier I have no objections to them scanning their own software, however I monitor it quite closely and should they ever make the stupid mistake of scanning outside of their software they will end up in court for illegal entry. In effect they can Scan any transmitable file associated with their program, nothing else.
Ok, let's just say you are correct. The EULA will not defend a company if they decide to use it as a defense against a person who broke the agreement. Why have we not heard from these companies like IGE, etc., when their accounts become suspended for breaking the EULA or ToS? Plain and simple, not a damn thing they can do about it. You, the user, reserve the right to do business with whomever you want. That same thought applies to the company. If you don't like having to deal with their security measures, go somewhere else. To a game that does not check for hackers and cheaters. See how long you survive without those measures in place.
As long as no stored data or unconsented personal information is sent, I"m perfectly fine with it. More or less, it's the same thing with PunkBuster, which I've gladly used in the past for multiplayer games.
Concerning legality issues, in order to scan your system, you have to run the WoW client. You select to run the program, access the game and accept the license agreement. Even if the agreement is legally void (which I highly doubt), Blizzard is not scanning your computer, you are. You've run, with your own will and with full knowledge, a program that, among other things, scans your system and sends only one conclusive piece of info ("Hack detected/not detected"). If it was done without your knowledge, like a trojan, that'd indeed be an illegal action.
Currently playing:
* City of Heroes: Deggial, Assault Rifle/Devices Blaster. Server: Defiant.
* City of Villains: Snakeroot, Plant/Thorns Dominator. Server: Defiant.
If you actually read through the entire EULA, then you have wayyyy to much freaking time on your hands or have absolutely no life.
But I agree, who cares if they scan my computer. Only reason you would care is if you have something on your computer to be ashamed of. I don't think anyone with any sense at all thinks a godlike company like Blizzard is gonna dip into your paper route money savings account.
Aparently you think that when a game scans your computer for hacks, it is some guy with a bag of cheetos haxing your computer. Well, all it really would be a program that looks for any programs that are running at the same time as the game and are some how altering the game. In no way is some l337 Dud3 from a game company checking your pr0n to make sure you don't have any hacks.
If I had to choose who I wanted to scan my computer, it wouldn't be some l337 k1ddy thats for sure.
I am willing to give up some personal freedoms and privacy in order to curb hacking.
Hacking and cheating is way out of control in MMOG's today.
I figure if you have nothing to hide, you shouldn't worry about it.
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it."
Brad McQuaid
Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc.
Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
www.vanguardsoh
I like PunkBuster yes.
About 99% of people playing any online games like PunkBuster
That fifty thousand thousand 12 year olds just left their Gamecube and started with WoW does NOT mean PunkBusters are bad, it just mean idiots are taking over the PC games.
"This is not a game to be tossed aside lightly.
It should be thrown with great force"
It's not just WoW that's doing this.
If the company is behaving responsible as in notifying their community beforehand, etc, which is what EQII, Blizzard, and whoever uses PunkBuster has done, then I have no problem with it.
Sometimes it takes more involved methods to stop or deter hacking, and if a player does not agree, they are more then welcome to not play the game.
sorry but i have to say that the thing you said about the mp3 is not true here, downloading IS legal in holland but uploading is illegal here.
on topic: i don't care if they scan my harddisk i have no cheats/hacks or anything and if they might have other intentions with the scan they will soon here about that from goverment organisations^^
I just want to reply to the guy that stated that ALL the programs you run in windows get entered into the Windows registry. Thet's simply not true. Go download Dev C++, make a "hello world" app, compile it and run. It executes just fine and doesn't require a registry key. Likewise, I can make any program into a windows console app and have access to all the API goodies that windows offers without ever having to register the program with windows. For bots and cheats, I don't really need all those goodies anyway. I just need pointers to the right memory addresses and network ports (Yeah, I know they're the same thing) and I'm good to go. In fact, out of all the stuff I've ever coded, I've never had to make a single key for the windows registry. Never really noticed that before......
Considering +90% of the windows OS in use in asia (esp china) are hacked / duped copies, MS wanted to deny updating those illegal OS in the MS update system. China in response is developing their own OS and cpu systems. They blanketly choose to ignore international copyrite guidelines.
Similarly US legislature types wanted to allow companies to actually destroy/unreparably harm systems that violated copyrite protected data. Holywood and music types want similar protection against people that illegally obtain their products they sell for excessive profit.
Taken to gaming, you pay a subscription for the privilage of accessing the provider's servers, with limitations in place spelled out in their EULA. There is fine print about your having to agree to not back engineer their software nor interfeer with operations in their game... to try and provide an even playing ground for all subscribers. So, the company has to detect illegal/improper access to their site. To just say they should ONLY have those protection mechanisms in place on their end is simplistic. That is like saying terrorist should only be blocked by excessive defences erected at known/all/any possible target destination or begin an investigation only AFTER an incident, after the damage is done. It is a proven fact, go after those doing mischief to stop them before they do serious damage... Oh, those hack, illegal, dupe programs were just there for investigational purposes, they never ever would be used on your game (... hurry guys pull the plug and get that anonymous login program up on the back up system so we can hide all the assets we have so far... otherwise we loose 10s of $1000s assets we market on flebay , ige & taobau...) mayby those programs were there when i bought this from the trunk of the guy selling computers last week, yea thats the ticket, those programs were already there when i bought this system!
Rest assured much of your kiddie porn you have archived is lower on the tba prosecution heirarchy, or their sending notice to MS about your illegal copy of Wxp is somewhat outside the scope of their anti gaming investigation(s.) Those playing by the rules have to submit to inspection to bring to light those trying to skate by illegally. (Except Sigil's Saga of Heroes, they are kindof tight with MS.)
Anwar ? If you are refering to the microsoft
patching problem
(about how they are scanning peoples machines for patching things such as ex. Microsoft Office) then im against the idea. 
Steve
"Do you have your latest Nvidia Driver?"
http://www.nvidia.com/content/drivers/drivers.asp
Exactly!!! we should get them before they kill/rape/steal!!! I say we institute a death penalty on anyone that SEEMS likely to comit a violent act!! I say we chop off the hands of anyone that LOOKS like they might be THINKING of stealing something!!! I think we should have cameras installed in the houses of every citizen to monitor what they're doing every minute of everyday so that we can ALL BE SAFE!!! Furthermore, we should just nuke the rest of the world to prevent any further attacks on our soveriegn (sic. sacred) nation!!!
And with that sarcasm out of the way....... Those that would trade liberty for security deserve niether. Or to paraphrase Ray Bradbury from his book "Fahrenhiet 451" -- Ask for no safety or gaurentees, no such creature ever exsisted.
I have no problems keeping people honest in games. If I really thought that Blizzard was looking at anything on my HD other than WoW or scanning active memory for cheat/bot scripts, I'd be the first person to scream bloody murder. They aren't. If they were, I could find out really, really quickly. Just as the barber shaves his own face at the end of the day, so to must we watch the watchmen.
Nothing personal but you are arguing with someone who writes code, you are dead wrong on windows registry. You do not have to go through all that, most programs do no require a registry entry and can operate normally without it, shortcuts and all. Stop talking about something you obviously have utterly no clue about, I am all for a good debate but at least know what you are talking about. Right now you are just talking out of your ass. Even Jimmy Scythe has called you out on this one.
As for using IGe and companies as far as banned accounts, one you are missing the entire point. We are not talking about the company scanning outgoing packets of information from their game, nor are we talking about the client verifying its DLL's and such are matched. We are talking about that scan going outside of client verification, scanning data that has absolutly nothing to do with the game outside potential malicious associations. As far as companies like IGE getting accounts and such banned, Its cheaper for them to buy another account then to fight it in court in a nutshell. But again We are not rguing a companies right or perogative to ban an account. We are talking about that company being able to scan outside their client data to try and prevent hacks.
They can Scan their client..They can scan their packets..Anything outside of that is untouchable.
Dekoth writes:
Even Jimmy Scythe has called you out on this one.
Er..... okay. I'm not too sure how to take that one. I'm pretty sure I've just been insulted. I'm not really in the mood to argue about it right now though.
They don't need a court order when you click YES on the TOS. Plain and simple. If you tell Mr. Cop that he can come in, you can't complain! You don't want your kiddie porn/cheats/whatever you think makes you important found then don't click YES. I applaud WoW for doing this. One of the reasons I don't sign back up with DAoC is because of the out of control cheating. I'll gladly let them rummage through anything on my computer. You have a choice!!!!!! Click NO.
[quote]
BUT...when all is said and done...absolutely no scanning without a court order...computers are getting to be used too much for everything locked filing cabinets and safes and under the mattress used to be for,.......your bills, your bank accounts, your p0rn, your plans to overtake the government, your own MMORPG you are developing, your second set of books for your business, your diary, your gameplan to become irresistable to the opposite or same sex......you get the point....computer privacy should be protected just as other rights to privacy....even if it means the bad guy gets away occasionally.
[/quote]
It is protected, nitwit. Click NO. Not a damn thing Blizzard can do about it.
Depends on the level of scanning imo. if its just processes/game folder fine but other then that I dont think they shouldn't be any deeper, and about your credit card they already have it stored in their data base.
eh...oh well, its not like we can stop them. I dont know why this is such a big deal, about 90% of the shareware programs out there come LOADED with spyware and other adware junk, but people use it anyways.
I assume you're talking about Winamp and Kazaa. Most of the shareware I download are games or game related. Milkshape3D, Blender, Dev C++, EMS Freesurfer, PGP and a host of shareware games don't have any spyware on them at all. You are correct though, everything you do online is monitored by someone, somewhere. Google logs IP addresses when you do a search. Most commercial websites also log IP addresses as well as where you went on the site and for how long. People do get spied on everyday and just don't seem to care. Apathy doesn't make it right though. In the case of WoW, they aren't invading your privacy, they're protecting their costumers from abuse. They aren't looking at anything that doesn't apply to their game client and the traffic it produces. It would be totally different if they used it to Kipe your automatic login information from your web browser. They aren't, so it doesn't matter.
Well, you are argueing with a network security specialist. It's my job to find illegal software on our network clients and report them to the supervisor of the individual who is using them. A file association key is necessary for a windows native app, i.e. any program that makes the claim to be windows compatable. It may not point directly at the app but the file association is there. Do a registry lookup for winamp. All those mp3, avi, mpeg etc., will be there with an association key, if you have associated them with winamp. Now, if the person makes a program that is not "windows compatable", it could be possible to circumvent this issue using a dos shell or virtual environment. However, since most client hackers are lazy SoBs they usually use another "windows compatable" program to do it, like X-Unleashed. Since you are a programmer, you probably know the saying, don't reinvent the wheel, reuse the code.
All that aside, I again state, if you do not want to deal with the fact that a company is taking a proactive stance versus hacking and 3rd party apps, don't deal with the company. It's that simple. The facts are, you already gave them all the info they need to be damaging. They have your name, address, phone number and CC number. You trust them with all that but do not trust them to be discreet while searching for illegal 3rd party apps and software that is used to destroy a project that cost millions to make.