Philosophy of MMO Development: Character Levels arent intrinsic to MMOs they just a flavor

MMOExposed

Character Levels are just a flavor, not something that is intrinsic to MMORPGs. 

We can do MMOS without it.      

I noticed that most MMO gamers are very conservative about the concept of Character Levels in MMOs. 

Its one thing I see so much resistance against taking a new alternative to.

Although WoW is hated by many socially in the MMO circle, most can agree that one thing WoW did do well was its Dungeons.          
 
But check this out. I was looking over the Dungeons in Vanilla WoW by Level. 

Vanilla WoW has 26 Dungeons. By the way that would be amazing in most MMOs now days. But only about 5 of those 26 Dungeons are even for Max Level Player Progression. Thats only 19% of all that Developer made Dungeon content will be useful to the player base once they out level those content features.

WoW is also known for its large seamless game world.
But the world is level gated. There are like 40 zones in the game world. But only like 9 of them are for max level character progression. Thats a small chuck out of the whole game world. 

Now imagine the this same game WoW, was designed with no Character Levels. The whole map is explorable and playable day one, and the world game is Endgame. All 40 zones are endgame content. No zone is ever out-leveled. 

All 26 Dungeons are endgame. No dungeon gets out-leveled. 

Instead of the MMO being designed for 9 months of slow boring meaningless level grind and then an endless true endgame progressive play once our character reach max level,

how about we skip all that 9 months meaningless level grind and jump right into a game world in which the endless true endgame progression starts day one. Nothing you do if ever out-leveled. All the content in the game is true progression in some form.             
            
How about instead of gaining Character Level EXP for killing bosses/Running Dungeons/etc, you gain materials/Gear/Tools/Skills to build your character and to build a city in the game over time?

The traditional Character Level Grind is not needed.

Guild Wars 2 for example had its first expansion over 5 years ago, It never increased the level cap. So for the last 5 years we been the same level. We get new zones, new content, new skills, new gear, etc but more Level Grind isnt needed to do any of those things.

Fact, going back to WoW as a Philosophy of observation. Prior to WoW Cataclysm while Blizzard was still at its peak, the Developer's data analyzation revealed to them that most new players would quit the game before making it to level 20. Blizzard figured the best way to fix that issue was to use their Expansion resources to introduce Expansion like features to the low leveling zones which most the veterans were already long past that burden by then.
Less resources went to the actual endgame content with the hope fixing this issue. 

Well it didnt work. Because Blizzard wasnt looking at the root of the problem, just the symptoms of the issue.  The Level Grind stuff is just boring now days. Many people now days have experienced MMOs before and arent new to MMOs like many people were in Vanilla WoW days. So the Level grind just not as exciting anymore once you realize how gated and meaningless it makes the game play because all the hardwork you put into it, becomes obsolete the moment you reach a new character level. And its not like you doing anything differently from any other level. But in some MMOs, you are gated from certain game features because you dont meet a level requirement. I remember in Vanilla Rift they added that 3 faction PvP zone, and then when the expansion came out which raised the level, they gated that same feature behind a new level cap, which means I could no longer play it anymore. But why?



But this went on long enough
I started this topic because of my view on Amazon Game Studio's New World MMO. It had very poor PvE elements in the Preview, but for a game like that which is PvP focused, I dont even understand the need for having Character Level Grinds in a MMORPG like that..

I want to hear what you all think.

Kyleran

Level 408 in Fallout 76, fighting same content as level 21, yet each sees it at their same level .... problem solved it seems.

It's not a perfect system by any means, but a big improvement over it's previous level gated content design.

Scot

You can overcome many issues with zones having different "levels" and players having different levels my game mechanics we have seen before. A buddy system allows players to join groups at the level of the group. While PvP zones can adjust players all to the same level. Indeed depending on the purpose of the zone, some could favour high level characters while others do not.

I am not sure why these sort of solutions are not far more prevalent, the only ideas that always seem to feature in new MMOs are cash shop ones.

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Gorwe

How would skills and such work in a game like that? Would there still be progression or would you start with at least the core of your build(if not the full build)? Answer that first.

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Scorchien

No such thing as classless ..

  Some games you choose a class that defines your skills...

                                  others

 You choose your skills that define your class ....

   Simple as that

  Some systems have better ways of disguising , but the outcome is the same ..

 

  Each approach defines your role in any given encounter

 

Scorchien

Rhoklaw said:

Basically, what you are saying is, why do MMORPG's have to have an RP aspect? MMO's of all flavors already exist. Most are RPGs because RPGs have a fundamental design that sorry to say IS intrinsic to the whole purpose of an RPG. That being levels, skills, crafting, gear and so on.

I have yet to see an MMORPG that was classless. Since even with just skills to level up, you are still theoretically creating a "class" by whatever skills you choose to increase as you gain experience.

You will never see an MMORPG without levels, skills or gear. It would no longer qualify as being an MMORPG.

As for an MMO with no levels, skills or gear. Sounds awfully boring.

we have one its called Second  Life .. and yes its awful boring

Wizardry

Levels are utilized as an unlock mechanic.

It takes a lot of work and effort and by some intelligent people designing the systems with good math skills.

It is quite doable to change the design we currently have of using levels as simply an unlock to use better items and to determine our xp attained in combat.

Everything in the game should utilize a skill rating system and not a player level system.This opens up the design to allow NO levels on any item.This however will not break the game because the player needs to be skilled with varied use of items as well there would be diminishing returns.

So if your weapon is too good but you have little skill with it,your not going to be much good with that weapon versus mobs of higher skill.
The same goes for crafting,you might be a level 1 noob crafter that has the possibility to craft an elite skill rated sword of Uberness but the chance to actually craft that sword is nearly zero.This means you will fail at the craft costing you a LOT of gold.

However NOTHING in the game should ever hit a rating of 0,you should always have at least a 1% chance to craft or to hit or to proc.Skills would rise by 0.1 increments but can vary by a lot depending on the circumstance.

Xp would no longer be a player level but a STATUS level.So if you attain a status level fighting within the realm of Warcraft all the npc's within that realm or in favor with that realm will have a certain % chance to talk to you.Then over time you gain individual favor with each npc.This allows the developer to give each player his/her own unique experience with each npc.

SO favor status is based on realm within,your home realm,your race,your class at current time talking to the npc,perhaps even the weather or season will also affect how that npc interacts with you.Then each NPC has tiers of interaction,for one player might simply ask for 10 bear pelts after you attain a favor rating of 5/10 or 5/20.For another player of high favor,likes your class,your race,your realm,maybe your sword rating or armor rating might give you a location or hint/clue to a location to find a hidden treasure or maybe a hint to seek out another npc.The ideas are endless,perhaps a clue to go fight a certain mob for the next 1 hour with a chance to attain a special drop item.

Wizardry

Right now mmorpg's are designed with a VERY linear approach because of levels.By removing that design it opens up the game to horizontal progression,not just will skill ratings but with the world/npc's etc etc.

You might be playing Wow and hit max level,so now what,go into instances and fight for end game loot...zzzzzzzzzz

How about you now go interact with  NPC's that could be anywhere,any town and place that you need to gain favor with to actually attain through work and "smarts"clues/hints etc etc .This creates a realistic immersive world instead of fake warping around dungeons or rinse repeat dungeons for loot.

With the design I want every player could have a completely different experience from the game.This would be MUCH better than any Storybricks idea,like about 100x better.I assume this is what players have been asking for a long time,to have their own unique experience within the game.

Well so long we continue to utilize levels and instance dungeons and END game like we currently do the genre will NEVER get better and will never be creative and will ALWAYS be very linear and all players will be 100% identical within each individual class.

bcbully

Well as long as you don’t believe mmos are descendants of rpgs 

Iselin

Kyleran said:

Level 408 in Fallout 76, fighting same content as level 21, yet each sees it at their same level .... problem solved it seems.

It's not a perfect system by any means, but a big improvement over it's previous level gated content design.

I know you were skeptical about level scaling when it was first announced for FO76... I seem to recall you even making quitting noises at one point.

So welcome to the dark side. Level scaling FTW!

Scorchien

tzervo said:

Scorchien said:

  Some games you choose a class that defines your skills...

                                  others

 You choose your skills that define your class ....

I call that a role, and I call class as selecting/binding to a role at character creation. We are just getting into definition wars here, which is why I describe what I consider as the important "effect" and the distinctions.

semantics at best

Iselin

Progression is what RPGs, including the on-line MMO variety, are all about. As long as you have that level numbers are mostly irrelevant although they are a convenient tag.

The OP's WOW example is really about something else than having levels even if he doesn't know it himself

He's talking about level gating content and there are many ways to keep content relevant with or without those handy dandy level tags.```

In ESO instanced dungeons are unlocked as you level but all 40+ of them remain relevant after that thanks to level scaling AND the fact that each one of those dungeons has unique item set gear that is account-bound on pick up (only you and your alts can use it.) They can also be run on a higher difficulty version, "veteran", once you've leveled and geared up enough to be able to handle that.

Progression is there despite being level scaled by unlocking better skills in the skill lines you choose to use that is independent from level, by using the right gear sets (out of 500+) for your build and by earning "Champion Points" post level 50 that you use to get the right passives for your build - each passive having 100 levels with diminishing returns.

So it's a game that has levels, level scaling, content that's forever relevant and progression in spades.

It's game with some warts and definitely not for everyone but it's level scaling done right without killing the sense of progression.

A brand new player unlocks the 3 first instanced group dungeons at level 10 and can handle doing it in 4 man group. A group of 4 level 10s would usually take about 30 minutes o complete it. A fully geared player with 810 CP passives and all skills relevant to the build unlocked and slotted can do the veteran version of those same dungeons solo in about 10 minutes.

Levels, level scaling and progression together... it's a thing.

Theocritus

Kyleran said:

Level 408 in Fallout 76, fighting same content as level 21, yet each sees it at their same level .... problem solved it seems.

It's not a perfect system by any means, but a big improvement over it's previous level gated content design.

I don't know that doesn't sound perfect to me......It sounds like the last 387 levels have been a waste of time.......

iixviiiix

The problem with level is reward . What i bored to leveling and do all the stuffs for ?

Theocritus

Rhoklaw said:

Basically, what you are saying is, why do MMORPG's have to have an RP aspect? MMO's of all flavors already exist. Most are RPGs because RPGs have a fundamental design that sorry to say IS intrinsic to the whole purpose of an RPG. That being levels, skills, crafting, gear and so on.

I have yet to see an MMORPG that was classless. Since even with just skills to level up, you are still theoretically creating a "class" by whatever skills you choose to increase as you gain experience.

You will never see an MMORPG without levels, skills or gear. It would no longer qualify as being an MMORPG.

As for an MMO with no levels, skills or gear. Sounds awfully boring.

Most MMORPGs have been based on D&D where you gained levels to get better skills, more HP, mana, etc etc etc. As you gained levels, you fought tougher monsters. It was a nice progression system.

Kyleran

Remali said:

tzervo said:

Remali said:

Kyleran said:

Level 408 in Fallout 76, fighting same content as level 21, yet each sees it at their same level .... problem solved it seems.

It's not a perfect system by any means, but a big improvement over it's previous level gated content design.

Fighting the same enemies for 400 lvls is a boring and lazy design 

No it's not. It is a design.

Imagine that you have downscaling and each level adds a new enemy type. At level 21 you have 21 enemy types to play with. At level 400 you have 400. You have progression (new content) and you get introduced to it progressively (good for easing in new players).

Imagine the same without downscaling. Anything 20 levels below you is one shot and trivial. Anything 20 levels above you is too hard to deal with even for the pros. So now instead of having 400 enemy types to play with you have 40 (10 times less available content).

Sure you do not feel more powerful as you level if you get downscaled but some are not power junkies, they care about available content more (I am one of them).

Yeah but he said same content so i assumed same enemies not 1000% more

I've yet to see a MMO which doesn't really just reuse some number of standard enemies from beginning to end.

Boar's level 1, enraged boar's at level 10, boar lord level 20, eventually leading to the Boar King in the later stages or raids.

Where new players start out there is a smaller subset of NPCs to fight, and by the time they reach the Cranberry bog they'll find the Scorch Queen and of course "scorched" versions of most every NPC they've faced before.

The recent change means now when I go into Flatwoods, I'm likely to find level 50 or 60 NPCs to fight, while new player lvl 21 sees say level 25.

If I take that player to my camp in the savage divide I can be attacked by level 100 NPCs and the level 21 will face perhaps level 50s...so the scaling is not like be for like.

In fact, seems Bethesda didn't balance the scaling perfectly at release so players in the 40 to 200 range have complained they are getting their asses handed to them especially if they aren't playing min/max builds. (Weird, I know, but some people do this, just not me)

They've promised to address this in an upcoming patch so players can still have more flexibility to play they way they wish instead of always following the perfect path.

cameltosis

What the OP is talking about is designing a game around horizontal progression.

And I'm all for it.

You can still have roleplaying without levels, without stat increases. If the devs want to gate content, then can still do it based on needing certain gear (e.g. needing ice resistence to do an ice-themed dungeon). You can still get a sense of progression from unlocking new things without those things making old content redundant.

Also, in the MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER genre, devs should really be doing all they can to bring players together. Segregating players based on progression is really a bad idea, and always results in the solofication of the game.

With all that said, the player base is simply used to vertical progression because it appears so often in single player games and co-op games (where it doesn't cause the same problems as in a multiplayer game). Someone is going to have to break the mould and show the world what is possible with horizontal progression before the general public will even understand it, let alone accept it.

iixviiiix

I think problem with level scaling is player have permanent perfect power progression.

You level up , your attack power up , defense power up and HP up . There is no room for you to get killed by low level enemies.

And that's the problem , you become prefect , and it leave no room to keep progress .

Compare to prefect progression .

For example , if i have a gun and i want to hunt a level 100 boss for a pet , i need 100 type level 100 bullets .

And when i got 100 bullets , i trade it for boss's loots (aka pet) . I lost my progression (100 bullets) but gain a pet .

That's my idea progression . I got 100 shots , and i still a weak character , and when i used up all 100 shots , my progression reset .

I got a pet , a pet is strong and can handle nearly every enemies , but i still a weak  character .

A game is lost it charm when player don't have weakness that allow other to defeat him .

Ungood

Ideally when people play a game, they should feel a sense of progression.

Stagnation is a death kneel for most games, as once players feel they are at their highest point, they have little to no reason to keep playing.

This is why grinds are put in start with, to give players something to work towards, a goal, and a sense of progress towards that goal. Level Grinds are just easy for players to see and grasp.

But, if you don't give players a sense of progress, what is their motive to log in? I mean, sure if your game is scantly hidden soft core porn like Second Life, there is that.. but.. really.. you need to think about what is going to keep your players interest.

olepi

The classic role playing game is where you start out as a peasant, or a prisoner, or a baby.

You find your role in the world and try to grow. Your decisions on what skills to grow in defines your role in the world.  As you grow, you learn new skills, get new weapons, etc.

Another way to grow is with money, or things. Maybe you don't "level", but you get more money that allows you to do more. Like a new skill.

Or you build a new building, that provides a new thing. You didn't "level", but you did progress.

The human brain is programmed to accumulate; that makes a good foundation for a game.  There are different mechanisms for this though. Money, levels, faction, etc.

Amaranthar

Scaling is a terrible waste of money. 

What Scaling actually does is remove most of the gains of leveling on past content. 
On future content, it either removes most of the future gains or doesn't, in which case it makes that content restricted until the future levels are gained. 

Why bother with any of that, and all the code and costly hours, when you can just skip it and set the values, from the start, as they are going to end up being? 
The producers don't have to pay the cost of all the coding that goes into making Scaling. 

That money can be spent on other things to make the game better than it is. 

MMOExposed

Ungood said:

Ideally when people play a game, they should feel a sense of progression.

Stagnation is a death kneel for most games, as once players feel they are at their highest point, they have little to no reason to keep playing.

This is why grinds are put in start with, to give players something to work towards, a goal, and a sense of progress towards that goal. Level Grinds are just easy for players to see and grasp.

But, if you don't give players a sense of progress, what is their motive to log in? I mean, sure if your game is scantly hidden soft core porn like Second Life, there is that.. but.. really.. you need to think about what is going to keep your players interest.

Progression can be anything, doesnt have to be character levels. Making a Legendary armor can be progression. Building a House can be progression. Even Faction group development can be progression. Building a city can be progression. All of these are independent of Character Levels as well. 

AlBQuirky

Aren't levels "intrinsic" to RPGs, though? If so, an MMORPG by it's very nature needs levels.

By the way, any number after anything (class, skills, abilities) are levels, ie: a way to measure growth.