D&D has been mentioned many times here. What people forget is that D&D was a very simplified game.
A good fight would take anywhere from 30 minutes to 2 hours, depending on the rolls. Imagine what it would have been like had they used a more intricate combat system!
Hit Points was not health, in the early days. It was a "symbol" of how your character was getting better at fighting. To Hit AC0 (THAC0) was not any indication of your manual dexterity, it was a broad indicator of your more familiarization with the weapon(s) your character used. Your weapon made little difference if it was made of iron, steel, or butter. Your character never improved their starting stats, unless with magic.
These simplified systems did not translate well into video games. Hit Points became health. Armor class became actual armor. Developers tried to translate what they experienced in D&D and failed. They wanted levels. They wanted those levels to mean something. In addition to skills, spells, and abilities they started adding in Health and Ability increases. They started dividing up, specifying what D&D simplified.
I still like levels in my RPGs, but they are certainly not a necessity
This is very accurate, and Gygax even talked about this in the Dungeon's Master Guide, where he explained that having more HP did not mean your character was inherently tougher, it was to indicate that they sidestepped the blow, or moved in such a way to make it a glancing blow as opposed to a direct hit like they would at the early levels. This is why a 1st level fighter had on average like 6 hp, and could be killed by a dagger, because they didn't know how to move or deflect the blows, and would take the dagger straight into them, and a 10th level fighter had around 60 hp, and would glance off blows all the time.
Now, again, AC was the same way, it was not a test of your armor directly, or even if you got hit, it was a question of if you could defect the blow, or dodge it, or the many various ways you can avoid taking the damage directly.
Now, MMO's could incorporate all these things into them. in fact, DDO, works in this direction with a lot of HomeBrew revisions to how things like AC and HP work, and this gives players a LOT to think about.
... yah.. giving players a LOT to think about is not always a good thing in an MMO where players want to just jump in and play.
I am not even going to get into what kind of shit show it would become if the game gave the illusion of something like horizontal level progression, but in reality was working on a gear/skill base, that would allow players to be exponential more powerful than other players, under the disguise of being the same "level"
In fact games like GW2 are crushing under this exact problem with their max level characters, so much so, that the Devs themselves have come out and even admitted the game suffers under disparity of meta builds and rotations being able to dish out 10X the damage of what would be an average build or even something simple less than optimal.
This making it exceedingly hard to design and judge encounters, and making any semblance of balance in their PvP a laughing stock.
Now ideally, the game could just work out all the numbers behind the scenes, but again, it would need to be some kind of system, as even in real, take someone who has been fencing for 20 years, while the chance might exist that the novice could beat them, the expected and often assured outcome is the more experienced fencer wins.
And this is something that MMO's need to address, and the answer is not simply the skill of the player themselves, as that eliminates any advantage of investing any real time into the game, and you might as well focus on making a lobby shooter.
I really don't see the difference between hit points in D&D and hit points/health in a typical mmo.
The explanation of what hit points means in D&D can also be applied to mmos/rpgs. It doesn't change the fact that 60hp is 10x more than 6hp.
But this went on long enough I started this topic because of my view on Amazon Game Studio's New World MMO. It had very poor PvE elements in the Preview, but for a game like that which is PvP focused, I dont even understand the need for having Character Level Grinds in a MMORPG like that..
I want to hear what you all think.
I remember quiting warhammer when I reach max renown. Or quiting various mmorpg because I run out of goals I want to achieve.
I think that is fundamentally why mmorpg are build around carrot of a stick.
But if you remove long term character progression the game would play like a battle royal or survival games.
But this went on long enough I started this topic because of my view on Amazon Game Studio's New World MMO. It had very poor PvE elements in the Preview, but for a game like that which is PvP focused, I dont even understand the need for having Character Level Grinds in a MMORPG like that..
I want to hear what you all think.
I remember quiting warhammer when I reach max renown. Or quiting various mmorpg because I run out of goals I want to achieve.
I think that is fundamentally why mmorpg are build around carrot of a stick.
But if you remove long term character progression the game would play like a battle royal or survival games.
Thats because Warhammer and its Development Resources put lots of their reources into Leveling Content, which once you outlevel, you dont go back. Making it wasted resources for long term player appeal.
But this went on long enough I started this topic because of my view on Amazon Game Studio's New World MMO. It had very poor PvE elements in the Preview, but for a game like that which is PvP focused, I dont even understand the need for having Character Level Grinds in a MMORPG like that..
I want to hear what you all think.
I remember quiting warhammer when I reach max renown. Or quiting various mmorpg because I run out of goals I want to achieve.
I think that is fundamentally why mmorpg are build around carrot of a stick.
But if you remove long term character progression the game would play like a battle royal or survival games.
Thats because Warhammer and its Development Resources put lots of their reources into Leveling Content, which once you outlevel, you dont go back. Making it wasted resources for long term player appeal.
I actually think I was doing the exact same thing before and after I reach max level. Doing scenarios and realm vs realm. And maxing the renown take a good few hundreds hours after you reach max level.
I think you are probably right about the public quest. But I have a vague memory of warhammer so I don't remember much about it.
D&D has been mentioned many times here. What people forget is that D&D was a very simplified game.
A good fight would take anywhere from 30 minutes to 2 hours, depending on the rolls. Imagine what it would have been like had they used a more intricate combat system!
Hit Points was not health, in the early days. It was a "symbol" of how your character was getting better at fighting. To Hit AC0 (THAC0) was not any indication of your manual dexterity, it was a broad indicator of your more familiarization with the weapon(s) your character used. Your weapon made little difference if it was made of iron, steel, or butter. Your character never improved their starting stats, unless with magic.
These simplified systems did not translate well into video games. Hit Points became health. Armor class became actual armor. Developers tried to translate what they experienced in D&D and failed. They wanted levels. They wanted those levels to mean something. In addition to skills, spells, and abilities they started adding in Health and Ability increases. They started dividing up, specifying what D&D simplified.
I still like levels in my RPGs, but they are certainly not a necessity
This is very accurate, and Gygax even talked about this in the Dungeon's Master Guide, where he explained that having more HP did not mean your character was inherently tougher, it was to indicate that they sidestepped the blow, or moved in such a way to make it a glancing blow as opposed to a direct hit like they would at the early levels. This is why a 1st level fighter had on average like 6 hp, and could be killed by a dagger, because they didn't know how to move or deflect the blows, and would take the dagger straight into them, and a 10th level fighter had around 60 hp, and would glance off blows all the time.
Now, again, AC was the same way, it was not a test of your armor directly, or even if you got hit, it was a question of if you could defect the blow, or dodge it, or the many various ways you can avoid taking the damage directly.
Now, MMO's could incorporate all these things into them. in fact, DDO, works in this direction with a lot of HomeBrew revisions to how things like AC and HP work, and this gives players a LOT to think about.
... yah.. giving players a LOT to think about is not always a good thing in an MMO where players want to just jump in and play.
I am not even going to get into what kind of shit show it would become if the game gave the illusion of something like horizontal level progression, but in reality was working on a gear/skill base, that would allow players to be exponential more powerful than other players, under the disguise of being the same "level"
In fact games like GW2 are crushing under this exact problem with their max level characters, so much so, that the Devs themselves have come out and even admitted the game suffers under disparity of meta builds and rotations being able to dish out 10X the damage of what would be an average build or even something simple less than optimal.
This making it exceedingly hard to design and judge encounters, and making any semblance of balance in their PvP a laughing stock.
Now ideally, the game could just work out all the numbers behind the scenes, but again, it would need to be some kind of system, as even in real, take someone who has been fencing for 20 years, while the chance might exist that the novice could beat them, the expected and often assured outcome is the more experienced fencer wins.
And this is something that MMO's need to address, and the answer is not simply the skill of the player themselves, as that eliminates any advantage of investing any real time into the game, and you might as well focus on making a lobby shooter.
I really don't see the difference between hit points in D&D and hit points/health in a typical mmo.
The explanation of what hit points means in D&D can also be applied to mmos/rpgs. It doesn't change the fact that 60hp is 10x more than 6hp.
My apologies.
I neglected to talk about the important part of D&D combat: The round. 6 seconds where multiple attacks, parries, ripostes, dodges, and blocks occur. When a player rolls their "to hit die", it is an abstract to see if any of their multiple attacks got through.
MMOs have made each swing a button press. Each block and dodge, too. Combat is no longer an abstract portrayed in 6 second increments, but rather a real time visualization of a fight or battle. So what worked on the tabletop translated poorly to video games in general.
MMORPGs have made hit points=life. You level up you get more life. Because of the real time combat, hit points are no longer an abstract indicator of a player's increase in battle skills. It is literally life. That improvement is now shown by button presses.
I hope that helps in clarifying what we're talking about
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
D&D has been mentioned many times here. What people forget is that D&D was a very simplified game.
A good fight would take anywhere from 30 minutes to 2 hours, depending on the rolls. Imagine what it would have been like had they used a more intricate combat system!
Hit Points was not health, in the early days. It was a "symbol" of how your character was getting better at fighting. To Hit AC0 (THAC0) was not any indication of your manual dexterity, it was a broad indicator of your more familiarization with the weapon(s) your character used. Your weapon made little difference if it was made of iron, steel, or butter. Your character never improved their starting stats, unless with magic.
These simplified systems did not translate well into video games. Hit Points became health. Armor class became actual armor. Developers tried to translate what they experienced in D&D and failed. They wanted levels. They wanted those levels to mean something. In addition to skills, spells, and abilities they started adding in Health and Ability increases. They started dividing up, specifying what D&D simplified.
I still like levels in my RPGs, but they are certainly not a necessity
This is very accurate, and Gygax even talked about this in the Dungeon's Master Guide, where he explained that having more HP did not mean your character was inherently tougher, it was to indicate that they sidestepped the blow, or moved in such a way to make it a glancing blow as opposed to a direct hit like they would at the early levels. This is why a 1st level fighter had on average like 6 hp, and could be killed by a dagger, because they didn't know how to move or deflect the blows, and would take the dagger straight into them, and a 10th level fighter had around 60 hp, and would glance off blows all the time.
Now, again, AC was the same way, it was not a test of your armor directly, or even if you got hit, it was a question of if you could defect the blow, or dodge it, or the many various ways you can avoid taking the damage directly.
Now, MMO's could incorporate all these things into them. in fact, DDO, works in this direction with a lot of HomeBrew revisions to how things like AC and HP work, and this gives players a LOT to think about.
... yah.. giving players a LOT to think about is not always a good thing in an MMO where players want to just jump in and play.
I am not even going to get into what kind of shit show it would become if the game gave the illusion of something like horizontal level progression, but in reality was working on a gear/skill base, that would allow players to be exponential more powerful than other players, under the disguise of being the same "level"
In fact games like GW2 are crushing under this exact problem with their max level characters, so much so, that the Devs themselves have come out and even admitted the game suffers under disparity of meta builds and rotations being able to dish out 10X the damage of what would be an average build or even something simple less than optimal.
This making it exceedingly hard to design and judge encounters, and making any semblance of balance in their PvP a laughing stock.
Now ideally, the game could just work out all the numbers behind the scenes, but again, it would need to be some kind of system, as even in real, take someone who has been fencing for 20 years, while the chance might exist that the novice could beat them, the expected and often assured outcome is the more experienced fencer wins.
And this is something that MMO's need to address, and the answer is not simply the skill of the player themselves, as that eliminates any advantage of investing any real time into the game, and you might as well focus on making a lobby shooter.
I really don't see the difference between hit points in D&D and hit points/health in a typical mmo.
The explanation of what hit points means in D&D can also be applied to mmos/rpgs. It doesn't change the fact that 60hp is 10x more than 6hp.
It could be, in fact we have made MMO's based directly on the D&D rule set.. have you played any?
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
This is very accurate, and Gygax even talked about this in the Dungeon's Master Guide, where he explained that having more HP did not mean your character was inherently tougher, it was to indicate that they sidestepped the blow, or moved in such a way to make it a glancing blow as opposed to a direct hit like they would at the early levels. This is why a 1st level fighter had on average like 6 hp, and could be killed by a dagger, because they didn't know how to move or deflect the blows, and would take the dagger straight into them, and a 10th level fighter had around 60 hp, and would glance off blows all the time.
Now, again, AC was the same way, it was not a test of your armor directly, or even if you got hit, it was a question of if you could defect the blow, or dodge it, or the many various ways you can avoid taking the damage directly.
Now, MMO's could incorporate all these things into them. in fact, DDO, works in this direction with a lot of HomeBrew revisions to how things like AC and HP work, and this gives players a LOT to think about.
... yah.. giving players a LOT to think about is not always a good thing in an MMO where players want to just jump in and play.
I am not even going to get into what kind of shit show it would become if the game gave the illusion of something like horizontal level progression, but in reality was working on a gear/skill base, that would allow players to be exponential more powerful than other players, under the disguise of being the same "level"
In fact games like GW2 are crushing under this exact problem with their max level characters, so much so, that the Devs themselves have come out and even admitted the game suffers under disparity of meta builds and rotations being able to dish out 10X the damage of what would be an average build or even something simple less than optimal.
This making it exceedingly hard to design and judge encounters, and making any semblance of balance in their PvP a laughing stock.
Now ideally, the game could just work out all the numbers behind the scenes, but again, it would need to be some kind of system, as even in real, take someone who has been fencing for 20 years, while the chance might exist that the novice could beat them, the expected and often assured outcome is the more experienced fencer wins.
And this is something that MMO's need to address, and the answer is not simply the skill of the player themselves, as that eliminates any advantage of investing any real time into the game, and you might as well focus on making a lobby shooter.
I really don't see the difference between hit points in D&D and hit points/health in a typical mmo.
The explanation of what hit points means in D&D can also be applied to mmos/rpgs. It doesn't change the fact that 60hp is 10x more than 6hp.
My apologies.
I neglected to talk about the important part of D&D combat: The round. 6 seconds where multiple attacks, parries, ripostes, dodges, and blocks occur. When a player rolls their "to hit die", it is an abstract to see if any of their multiple attacks got through.
MMOs have made each swing a button press. Each block and dodge, too. Combat is no longer an abstract portrayed in 6 second increments, but rather a real time visualization of a fight or battle. So what worked on the tabletop translated poorly to video games in general.
MMORPGs have made hit points=life. You level up you get more life. Because of the real time combat, hit points are no longer an abstract indicator of a player's increase in battle skills. It is literally life. That improvement is now shown by button presses.
I hope that helps in clarifying what we're talking about
It's deeper than this, but this is a good start.
To use an example, in games like D&D, you have HP, just a blanket denotation of health in all regards.
So if you fall, it does damage to you, and you take that from your health total, and move on. What this means is, in short, as long as you have enough HP you can fall from any height, which makes no sense at all.
Now in a game like GW2, you have a threshold on how far you can fall before you just die from the fall. They then put in some mounts, like the Springer that increased this distance massively.
Now, imagine if you had a game that had a threshold for falling where the fall would be fatal, no matter how many HP you had, like GW2 has set up. But also allows for Skills like Tumbling, to increase this threshold, and reduce overall falling damage, which would make far more sense in an overall scheme of things.
In many ways, MMO's can be vastly complex and build worlds in what would be a real sense, and not depend on the simplition concepts that P&P D&D rules put out, like HP and AC.
And instead can deal with things like having a fixed HP pool, but skills, abilities, talents, equipment, and other factors can be applied so that HP is not some have all, end all goal, like it is in most games.
To give a great example of this in DDO (Of all things, Dungeons and Dragons Online, has pulled away from just the HP poll as a blanket thing) and you have things like Deflection, Dodge, Concealment, Incorporality, as a first line of just being flat out missed, Then, you have AC to see if they hit you at all, after that, they have flat Damage Reductions, like a Barbarian has a natural damage Reduction, or some armors are made from special metals like Adamantite, which offer a Damage Reduction against anything that is not also made of Adamantite, as well as something called Physical Resistance Rating, which is your armor/shields ability to flat out absorb the damage (IE: Full plate has a naturally higher PRR than Leather)
So there is a lot involved when it comes to judging and building your survivability, far more than simply "AC/HP" like.. sadly.. a huge number of modern MMO's work from.
Which is ironic, that more modren MMO's don't build these interwoven systems that make sense, that reflect what could be done if you didn't need to sit at a table and roll dice, and a computer could just calculate the outcome, just leaving the players there to think about how best to sway the outcome, and some dinosaur that is supposedly built off the AD7D 3.5 rule set does use this kind of system.
I suppose it is more a matter of knowing your clients and what they want from a game.
Some players simply want a dumb down game and just want to see HP and watch that number grow.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Remember how 0 hit points didn't mean you were dead, but downed possibly just unconscious depending on the attack and damage type. Some MMOs and games have implemented the downed state. I like it when they do that.
Yeah. They should follow it up with actual death unless you can somehow get a Ressurection
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
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Remember how 0 hit points didn't mean you were dead, but downed possibly just unconscious depending on the attack and damage type. Some MMOs and games have implemented the downed state. I like it when they do that.
Games like GW2 do this, with a downed State.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Remember how 0 hit points didn't mean you were dead, but downed possibly just unconscious depending on the attack and damage type. Some MMOs and games have implemented the downed state. I like it when they do that.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
So if you fall, it does damage to you, and you take that from your health total, and move on. What this means is, in short, as long as you have enough HP you can fall from any height, which makes no sense at all.
You're right it doesn't. That's why in my D&D campaigns a fatal fall was always a fatal fall.
It's important that the Dungeon Master isn't just walking through the motions and actually thinks.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
D&D has been mentioned many times here. What people forget is that D&D was a very simplified game.
A good fight would take anywhere from 30 minutes to 2 hours, depending on the rolls. Imagine what it would have been like had they used a more intricate combat system!
Hit Points was not health, in the early days. It was a "symbol" of how your character was getting better at fighting. To Hit AC0 (THAC0) was not any indication of your manual dexterity, it was a broad indicator of your more familiarization with the weapon(s) your character used. Your weapon made little difference if it was made of iron, steel, or butter. Your character never improved their starting stats, unless with magic.
These simplified systems did not translate well into video games. Hit Points became health. Armor class became actual armor. Developers tried to translate what they experienced in D&D and failed. They wanted levels. They wanted those levels to mean something. In addition to skills, spells, and abilities they started adding in Health and Ability increases. They started dividing up, specifying what D&D simplified.
I still like levels in my RPGs, but they are certainly not a necessity
This is very accurate, and Gygax even talked about this in the Dungeon's Master Guide, where he explained that having more HP did not mean your character was inherently tougher, it was to indicate that they sidestepped the blow, or moved in such a way to make it a glancing blow as opposed to a direct hit like they would at the early levels. This is why a 1st level fighter had on average like 6 hp, and could be killed by a dagger, because they didn't know how to move or deflect the blows, and would take the dagger straight into them, and a 10th level fighter had around 60 hp, and would glance off blows all the time.
Now, again, AC was the same way, it was not a test of your armor directly, or even if you got hit, it was a question of if you could defect the blow, or dodge it, or the many various ways you can avoid taking the damage directly.
Now, MMO's could incorporate all these things into them. in fact, DDO, works in this direction with a lot of HomeBrew revisions to how things like AC and HP work, and this gives players a LOT to think about.
... yah.. giving players a LOT to think about is not always a good thing in an MMO where players want to just jump in and play.
I am not even going to get into what kind of shit show it would become if the game gave the illusion of something like horizontal level progression, but in reality was working on a gear/skill base, that would allow players to be exponential more powerful than other players, under the disguise of being the same "level"
In fact games like GW2 are crushing under this exact problem with their max level characters, so much so, that the Devs themselves have come out and even admitted the game suffers under disparity of meta builds and rotations being able to dish out 10X the damage of what would be an average build or even something simple less than optimal.
This making it exceedingly hard to design and judge encounters, and making any semblance of balance in their PvP a laughing stock.
Now ideally, the game could just work out all the numbers behind the scenes, but again, it would need to be some kind of system, as even in real, take someone who has been fencing for 20 years, while the chance might exist that the novice could beat them, the expected and often assured outcome is the more experienced fencer wins.
And this is something that MMO's need to address, and the answer is not simply the skill of the player themselves, as that eliminates any advantage of investing any real time into the game, and you might as well focus on making a lobby shooter.
I really don't see the difference between hit points in D&D and hit points/health in a typical mmo.
The explanation of what hit points means in D&D can also be applied to mmos/rpgs. It doesn't change the fact that 60hp is 10x more than 6hp.
It could be, in fact we have made MMO's based directly on the D&D rule set.. have you played any?
Some are quite close to the D&D ruleset, but each has their own "tweaks." Even DDO has "regenerating mana and health."
One of the biggest problems D&D has is recovery times. You gained hit point and mana back if you rested... Only way to recover. This works in a tabletop setting where most (all?) players are there for the journey rather than the destination.
In older versions, Wizards were weaker than babies. They has 1 spell to use once all day and only 1d4 for health. A dagger or dart does 1d4 damage per hit.. Even later versions saw this and started giving Wizards and Clerics more spells at 1st level. When you rolled a spell caster, you took time to choose between a quarterstaff or a dagger as a weapon, for you knew you'd be using them in a fight
Many video games have used the D&D rulesets, but none have copied them rule for rule. They just don't work in a video game setting: Different medium, different rules
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
D&D has been mentioned many times here. What people forget is that D&D was a very simplified game.
A good fight would take anywhere from 30 minutes to 2 hours, depending on the rolls. Imagine what it would have been like had they used a more intricate combat system!
Hit Points was not health, in the early days. It was a "symbol" of how your character was getting better at fighting. To Hit AC0 (THAC0) was not any indication of your manual dexterity, it was a broad indicator of your more familiarization with the weapon(s) your character used. Your weapon made little difference if it was made of iron, steel, or butter. Your character never improved their starting stats, unless with magic.
These simplified systems did not translate well into video games. Hit Points became health. Armor class became actual armor. Developers tried to translate what they experienced in D&D and failed. They wanted levels. They wanted those levels to mean something. In addition to skills, spells, and abilities they started adding in Health and Ability increases. They started dividing up, specifying what D&D simplified.
I still like levels in my RPGs, but they are certainly not a necessity
This is very accurate, and Gygax even talked about this in the Dungeon's Master Guide, where he explained that having more HP did not mean your character was inherently tougher, it was to indicate that they sidestepped the blow, or moved in such a way to make it a glancing blow as opposed to a direct hit like they would at the early levels. This is why a 1st level fighter had on average like 6 hp, and could be killed by a dagger, because they didn't know how to move or deflect the blows, and would take the dagger straight into them, and a 10th level fighter had around 60 hp, and would glance off blows all the time.
Now, again, AC was the same way, it was not a test of your armor directly, or even if you got hit, it was a question of if you could defect the blow, or dodge it, or the many various ways you can avoid taking the damage directly.
Now, MMO's could incorporate all these things into them. in fact, DDO, works in this direction with a lot of HomeBrew revisions to how things like AC and HP work, and this gives players a LOT to think about.
... yah.. giving players a LOT to think about is not always a good thing in an MMO where players want to just jump in and play.
I am not even going to get into what kind of shit show it would become if the game gave the illusion of something like horizontal level progression, but in reality was working on a gear/skill base, that would allow players to be exponential more powerful than other players, under the disguise of being the same "level"
In fact games like GW2 are crushing under this exact problem with their max level characters, so much so, that the Devs themselves have come out and even admitted the game suffers under disparity of meta builds and rotations being able to dish out 10X the damage of what would be an average build or even something simple less than optimal.
This making it exceedingly hard to design and judge encounters, and making any semblance of balance in their PvP a laughing stock.
Now ideally, the game could just work out all the numbers behind the scenes, but again, it would need to be some kind of system, as even in real, take someone who has been fencing for 20 years, while the chance might exist that the novice could beat them, the expected and often assured outcome is the more experienced fencer wins.
And this is something that MMO's need to address, and the answer is not simply the skill of the player themselves, as that eliminates any advantage of investing any real time into the game, and you might as well focus on making a lobby shooter.
I really don't see the difference between hit points in D&D and hit points/health in a typical mmo.
The explanation of what hit points means in D&D can also be applied to mmos/rpgs. It doesn't change the fact that 60hp is 10x more than 6hp.
My apologies.
I neglected to talk about the important part of D&D combat: The round. 6 seconds where multiple attacks, parries, ripostes, dodges, and blocks occur. When a player rolls their "to hit die", it is an abstract to see if any of their multiple attacks got through.
MMOs have made each swing a button press. Each block and dodge, too. Combat is no longer an abstract portrayed in 6 second increments, but rather a real time visualization of a fight or battle. So what worked on the tabletop translated poorly to video games in general.
MMORPGs have made hit points=life. You level up you get more life. Because of the real time combat, hit points are no longer an abstract indicator of a player's increase in battle skills. It is literally life. That improvement is now shown by button presses.
I hope that helps in clarifying what we're talking about
I know what you are talking about, I just don't see the difference. I can apply the same logic about hit points to a character in a video game or one in a table top game. At the end of the day if an orc hits me for 6 damage I go from 60 to 54 health whether in D&D or in a video game.
I think levels and a leveling story are essential for MMOs. Like I just don't see the appeal of removing them. I'm also not a fan of blizzard streamlining the leveling process through boosts or their new Shadowlands model of gaining so many levels in just one expansion. It seems to cater to the (very rare) altoholics and lazy noobs. For me, MMOs are about immersion and becoming attached to your character.
I do think leveling and leveling stories are not necessary in ARPGs though. They spend so many resources on those things when the goal in POE, D2 and D3 is just to race to the endgame. Ideally through power leveling. Those games really only need a cool cinematic to bring you up to speed on the state of the world.
I know what you are talking about, I just don't see the difference. I can apply the same logic about hit points to a character in a video game or one in a table top game. At the end of the day if an orc hits me for 6 damage I go from 60 to 54 health whether in D&D or in a video game.
I see what you're saying and can't refute the point
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I know what you are talking about, I just don't see the difference. I can apply the same logic about hit points to a character in a video game or one in a table top game. At the end of the day if an orc hits me for 6 damage I go from 60 to 54 health whether in D&D or in a video game.
It's not the question that anyone who can do basic math understands that if you have 60 hp, take 6 damage, you now have 54 left.
No one is arguing this.
What the point is, in simple terms, is that saying "You have 60 hp" as a total measure of all your character can endure is boorishly simplistic, and even the iconic people, like Gygax and Arneson, who developed that very system explained that it was a vast oversimplification of what it was supposed to represent in a real terms.
What is being discussed is why are MMO, that have the computing power to handle more in depth systems that better reflect reality and make sense, still fall back on these vastly oversimplified systems.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Doesn't the D&D system also have minus a point for chain armour and another for deflect and so on before the final damage is taken into account. It isn't a straight up subtraction right ?
Doesn't the D&D system also have minus a point for chain armour and another for deflect and so on before the final damage is taken into account. It isn't a straight up subtraction right ?
Now they may have changed things with 5e, not sure.
But in 3.x (never played 4th) D&D Armor like chain and things like Defection, etc, are all calculated into base number called Armor Class (AC), this is a single number that encompass ALL your characters ability to avoid taking damage, either by avoidance or by the armor itself absorbing the blow. This works against the Opponents To Hit, Which is a single number to encomassas the opposnetes ability to strike you, either by finding weak points in your Armor, or just being able to judge how you will dodge to make sure they land the blow.
So. all these factors, dodging, armor, how you swing your weapon, and all the skill and abilities, talents and tactics that make up the entire show of a duel for both characters in involved in the combat come down to 2 numbers. AC & To Hit.
Thus, the entirety of what would be combat is boiled down to a single dice roll per attack, for the sake of simplicity and to keep the game moving along.
So each attack takes one rolling of a D20, to determine a hit/miss. And it's as simple as, if the To Hit + Dice Roll, was equal to or higher than the AC you Hit, otherwise you missed.
How you missed is of no consequence. If you wanted to play it out as the character dodged the blow, or it bounced off their armor, it made no difference, it would count as a Miss, and you move on.
After that, if it was a hit, Damage is rolled. Now, again, all the players skills, abilities, physical attributes, all of that, gets boiled down again to 2 numbers Damage/Hit Points.
And it's as simple as you subtract damage from hit points.
For example: if Bob the paladin, was attacking Mike the Wrate, with a Longsword, BoB has a +8 to Hit, and uses his Divine Favor Ability to get +2 more, so now BoB has a +10 to Hit. Mike the Wrathe has a 22 AC, a 10 base, Plus, his tough undead skin giving him natural +4 armor and his rusted brigantine armor +4 , and high dex +4.
Bob rolls a D20, and gets a 11. 10 to hit + 11 Roll = 21. That is less than Mikes AC, BoB Missed. Mikes Turn.
If say BoB rolled a 12 or higher, BoB would have hit Mike.
Bob was using a longsword, which is d8 damage, BoB also put all his stat points to Str , and is an ugly paladin. So he gets +4 damage. BoB rolls a D8 and gets a 6. 6 + 4 = 10 Hp Of Damage.
Mike is now down 10 Hp.
Often times, the Dm would just have BoB roll both the D20 and D8 at the same time, and tell them the outcome of those rolls, and this would either end combat (one of them dies) or they would move to who/what was next in the initiative order.
Simple system that each swing can take as little as a few seconds, to maybe a few minutes at most if the DM wants to montage the combat.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
It could be, in fact we have made MMO's based directly on the D&D rule set.. have you played any?
Some are quite close to the D&D ruleset, but each has their own "tweaks." Even DDO has "regenerating mana and health."
One of the biggest problems D&D has is recovery times. You gained hit point and mana back if you rested... Only way to recover. This works in a tabletop setting where most (all?) players are there for the journey rather than the destination.
In older versions, Wizards were weaker than babies. They has 1 spell to use once all day and only 1d4 for health. A dagger or dart does 1d4 damage per hit.. Even later versions saw this and started giving Wizards and Clerics more spells at 1st level. When you rolled a spell caster, you took time to choose between a quarterstaff or a dagger as a weapon, for you knew you'd be using them in a fight
Many video games have used the D&D rulesets, but none have copied them rule for rule. They just don't work in a video game setting: Different medium, different rules
It's kinda funny, because DDO was built as a resource management dungeon running game. (just like I guess a D&D campaign)
IE: You needed to prep and gear up on what/all you would need, before you went into the Dungeon.
In this vein, DDO does not have inherent regenerating HP, The only In-Dungeon means to get HP back, that is provided is a Rest Shrine, (because well all know that adventures would find a quiet spot in the dungeon and rest) and even then, your HP recovery is based on the highest heal skill your party has.
So if you wanted to regenerate HP in DDO, you would need to do it through other means, be it some kind of Feat, Gear/Armor, like a Guardian Shield which has Regeneration on it, or Weapons like Vampirism, Spells, or Special Abilities like Primal Avatar, SLA's (not sure of any healing SLA's tho), or consumables, like Potions, Scrolls, Wands, Kargons Tasty Hams, etc.
But, doing something like just waiting.. like in other games like GW2, where you can stand around out of combat and just get all HP/SP back.. that does not happen in DDO.
Now, they also didn't used to have Mana regen either, but, they add in "Echo's of Power" a few years back when they put in SLA's (Spell Like Abilities) for casters. But even then, Echo's of Power is very limited, and just gives you enough Spell Points to cast SLA's and maybe a single 1st level spell, not actual spells and not anything with a meta-magic feat going, so, for example, your Trusty Cleric was not going to get their mana back just waiting around.
if you wanted mana back, again, you are going have to do that through, well, mainly gear and consumables (potions mostly), and some abilities, like Divine Vitality, can give someone else mana.
In this case, again, the game is a Resource Management game, and while over time, players can earn means by which they can have near unlimited resources, or at least the appearance of unlimited, but it more the illusions of being what they have far exceeds what it takes to complete a dungeon, but that takes some serious time and grinding, and also means you paid your dues sucking hard in the start.
So.. DDO, does hold somewhat true to that foundation of not being a manawhore and blowing your spell list in the first fight.
In other games however, like for example GW2, the line between "Caster" and "Fighter" is blurry, as everyone has mystical/magical abilities, so there no sense of being Non-Magical in many of these other games.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I mean, sure if your game is scantly hidden soft core porn like Second Life, there is that.. but.. really.. you need to think about what is going to keep your players interest.
You've lost all credibility with that statement. First thing you got wrong is that Second Life is not a game. How can anyone trust anything you say when you can't get that right?
It can be, and many use it as such. What Second Life is largely depends on where you happen to be in it.
I guess a fundamental question is do you have a goal? If so, then you do things to progress to that goal. It's the same in any kind of game.
Take chess, for example. There is no role-playing, no levels, but there is a goal. You can measure your progression towards that goal. Actions can be rated in terms of how much they affect getting to the goal. You get a feeling of achievement at the end.
If there is no goal, then there is no achievement at the end. Humans don't do well in that kind of environment. Even in real life.
Let's say there is a single-player game where you start out with everything already accomplished. You have all items, buildings, farms, skills, etc, that you could ever get. Why would you play a game like that? Just to sit on a riverbank and fish?
I think goals can be had outside of combat. In modern MMORPG levels aren't even a real goal anymore. It's progression of gear and stats. Levels and leveling is trivial.
The problem is the only real goal is character progression and combat. Seems rather pedestrian for the scale of the genre.
I would like game play for explorers, crafters, community builders, combatants and achievers.
Sooo......... Progressing Level of Gear and Stats ....
Same thing ... you cannot have a competetive MMORPG without levels of some sort /end
Levels of some sort? I think when people talk about levels they are talking about vertical progression with each level being drastic power platform. A level 100 wizard will be a level 75 fighter in melee type action. It is not necessary.
If your acquring different Levels/Tiers etc of Gear or Stats its the same thing ...
I've been saying that here for years. I always though that disguising levels as some other form of progression be it with gear, progressive skill acquisition or whatever was an obvious and transparent way of accomplishing the same exact type of progression that levels accomplish in games that rely on that.
And it has zero to do with steep or gradual progression - it can be mild or extreme with or without levels.
Diablo 3 has leveling 1-70 but that progression with levels is peanuts compared to the huge and over the top progression you get once you reach 70 and start progressing with gear sets and legendary items to make you more than 1000 fold more powerful than a vanilla level 70 without that gear.
another ex. is SWL .... altho there is a lvl (max 50) it is meaningless , you are leveling your gear the entire time , which is where all your power comes from ..
You can be lvl 50 but if your gear is not Lvl 25 Superior or better you will be getting wrecked over and over .. its all about the gear ..
Good point on D3 as ARPG already to the gear lvl progression system
Not quite. SWL progression also increases the ability of the character, through stat gains and an increasingly large pool of active and passive abilities one can select from to bring to the table. It isn't about gear alone.
Doesn't the D&D system also have minus a point for chain armour and another for deflect and so on before the final damage is taken into account. It isn't a straight up subtraction right ?
In all of D&D variations, armor never directly effected damage taken. Strange beast, eh? It always adjusted a player's ability to not get hit. The better your armor class(AC), the harder it is to hit you, which makes sense, in a way.
Many DMs and players have tried different "house rules" for armor, but nothing "official" came about
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
But, doing something like just waiting.. like in other games like GW2, where you can stand around out of combat and just get all HP/SP back.. that does not happen in DDO.
Thanks for the clarification. I was going off of my time playing during beta. One reason I didn't like DDO was the regenerating Mana. I'm glad they changed that
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Comments
The explanation of what hit points means in D&D can also be applied to mmos/rpgs. It doesn't change the fact that 60hp is 10x more than 6hp.
I think that is fundamentally why mmorpg are build around carrot of a stick.
But if you remove long term character progression the game would play like a battle royal or survival games.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
I think you are probably right about the public quest. But I have a vague memory of warhammer so I don't remember much about it.
I neglected to talk about the important part of D&D combat: The round. 6 seconds where multiple attacks, parries, ripostes, dodges, and blocks occur. When a player rolls their "to hit die", it is an abstract to see if any of their multiple attacks got through.
MMOs have made each swing a button press. Each block and dodge, too. Combat is no longer an abstract portrayed in 6 second increments, but rather a real time visualization of a fight or battle. So what worked on the tabletop translated poorly to video games in general.
MMORPGs have made hit points=life. You level up you get more life. Because of the real time combat, hit points are no longer an abstract indicator of a player's increase in battle skills. It is literally life. That improvement is now shown by button presses.
I hope that helps in clarifying what we're talking about
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
To use an example, in games like D&D, you have HP, just a blanket denotation of health in all regards.
So if you fall, it does damage to you, and you take that from your health total, and move on. What this means is, in short, as long as you have enough HP you can fall from any height, which makes no sense at all.
Now in a game like GW2, you have a threshold on how far you can fall before you just die from the fall. They then put in some mounts, like the Springer that increased this distance massively.
Now, imagine if you had a game that had a threshold for falling where the fall would be fatal, no matter how many HP you had, like GW2 has set up. But also allows for Skills like Tumbling, to increase this threshold, and reduce overall falling damage, which would make far more sense in an overall scheme of things.
In many ways, MMO's can be vastly complex and build worlds in what would be a real sense, and not depend on the simplition concepts that P&P D&D rules put out, like HP and AC.
And instead can deal with things like having a fixed HP pool, but skills, abilities, talents, equipment, and other factors can be applied so that HP is not some have all, end all goal, like it is in most games.
To give a great example of this in DDO (Of all things, Dungeons and Dragons Online, has pulled away from just the HP poll as a blanket thing) and you have things like Deflection, Dodge, Concealment, Incorporality, as a first line of just being flat out missed, Then, you have AC to see if they hit you at all, after that, they have flat Damage Reductions, like a Barbarian has a natural damage Reduction, or some armors are made from special metals like Adamantite, which offer a Damage Reduction against anything that is not also made of Adamantite, as well as something called Physical Resistance Rating, which is your armor/shields ability to flat out absorb the damage (IE: Full plate has a naturally higher PRR than Leather)
So there is a lot involved when it comes to judging and building your survivability, far more than simply "AC/HP" like.. sadly.. a huge number of modern MMO's work from.
Which is ironic, that more modren MMO's don't build these interwoven systems that make sense, that reflect what could be done if you didn't need to sit at a table and roll dice, and a computer could just calculate the outcome, just leaving the players there to think about how best to sway the outcome, and some dinosaur that is supposedly built off the AD7D 3.5 rule set does use this kind of system.
I suppose it is more a matter of knowing your clients and what they want from a game.
Some players simply want a dumb down game and just want to see HP and watch that number grow.
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One of the biggest problems D&D has is recovery times. You gained hit point and mana back if you rested... Only way to recover. This works in a tabletop setting where most (all?) players are there for the journey rather than the destination.
In older versions, Wizards were weaker than babies. They has 1 spell to use once all day and only 1d4 for health. A dagger or dart does 1d4 damage per hit.. Even later versions saw this and started giving Wizards and Clerics more spells at 1st level. When you rolled a spell caster, you took time to choose between a quarterstaff or a dagger as a weapon, for you knew you'd be using them in a fight
Many video games have used the D&D rulesets, but none have copied them rule for rule. They just don't work in a video game setting: Different medium, different rules
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
See and I wasn't impressed with GW1 at all.....
I do think leveling and leveling stories are not necessary in ARPGs though. They spend so many resources on those things when the goal in POE, D2 and D3 is just to race to the endgame. Ideally through power leveling. Those games really only need a cool cinematic to bring you up to speed on the state of the world.
I see what you're saying and can't refute the point
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
No one is arguing this.
What the point is, in simple terms, is that saying "You have 60 hp" as a total measure of all your character can endure is boorishly simplistic, and even the iconic people, like Gygax and Arneson, who developed that very system explained that it was a vast oversimplification of what it was supposed to represent in a real terms.
What is being discussed is why are MMO, that have the computing power to handle more in depth systems that better reflect reality and make sense, still fall back on these vastly oversimplified systems.
But in 3.x (never played 4th) D&D Armor like chain and things like Defection, etc, are all calculated into base number called Armor Class (AC), this is a single number that encompass ALL your characters ability to avoid taking damage, either by avoidance or by the armor itself absorbing the blow. This works against the Opponents To Hit, Which is a single number to encomassas the opposnetes ability to strike you, either by finding weak points in your Armor, or just being able to judge how you will dodge to make sure they land the blow.
So. all these factors, dodging, armor, how you swing your weapon, and all the skill and abilities, talents and tactics that make up the entire show of a duel for both characters in involved in the combat come down to 2 numbers. AC & To Hit.
Thus, the entirety of what would be combat is boiled down to a single dice roll per attack, for the sake of simplicity and to keep the game moving along.
So each attack takes one rolling of a D20, to determine a hit/miss. And it's as simple as, if the To Hit + Dice Roll, was equal to or higher than the AC you Hit, otherwise you missed.
How you missed is of no consequence. If you wanted to play it out as the character dodged the blow, or it bounced off their armor, it made no difference, it would count as a Miss, and you move on.
After that, if it was a hit, Damage is rolled. Now, again, all the players skills, abilities, physical attributes, all of that, gets boiled down again to 2 numbers Damage/Hit Points.
And it's as simple as you subtract damage from hit points.
For example: if Bob the paladin, was attacking Mike the Wrate, with a Longsword, BoB has a +8 to Hit, and uses his Divine Favor Ability to get +2 more, so now BoB has a +10 to Hit. Mike the Wrathe has a 22 AC, a 10 base, Plus, his tough undead skin giving him natural +4 armor and his rusted brigantine armor +4 , and high dex +4.
Bob rolls a D20, and gets a 11. 10 to hit + 11 Roll = 21. That is less than Mikes AC, BoB Missed. Mikes Turn.
If say BoB rolled a 12 or higher, BoB would have hit Mike.
Bob was using a longsword, which is d8 damage, BoB also put all his stat points to Str , and is an ugly paladin. So he gets +4 damage. BoB rolls a D8 and gets a 6. 6 + 4 = 10 Hp Of Damage.
Mike is now down 10 Hp.
Often times, the Dm would just have BoB roll both the D20 and D8 at the same time, and tell them the outcome of those rolls, and this would either end combat (one of them dies) or they would move to who/what was next in the initiative order.
Simple system that each swing can take as little as a few seconds, to maybe a few minutes at most if the DM wants to montage the combat.
It's kinda funny, because DDO was built as a resource management dungeon running game. (just like I guess a D&D campaign)
IE: You needed to prep and gear up on what/all you would need, before you went into the Dungeon.
In this vein, DDO does not have inherent regenerating HP, The only In-Dungeon means to get HP back, that is provided is a Rest Shrine, (because well all know that adventures would find a quiet spot in the dungeon and rest) and even then, your HP recovery is based on the highest heal skill your party has.
So if you wanted to regenerate HP in DDO, you would need to do it through other means, be it some kind of Feat, Gear/Armor, like a Guardian Shield which has Regeneration on it, or Weapons like Vampirism, Spells, or Special Abilities like Primal Avatar, SLA's (not sure of any healing SLA's tho), or consumables, like Potions, Scrolls, Wands, Kargons Tasty Hams, etc.
But, doing something like just waiting.. like in other games like GW2, where you can stand around out of combat and just get all HP/SP back.. that does not happen in DDO.
Now, they also didn't used to have Mana regen either, but, they add in "Echo's of Power" a few years back when they put in SLA's (Spell Like Abilities) for casters. But even then, Echo's of Power is very limited, and just gives you enough Spell Points to cast SLA's and maybe a single 1st level spell, not actual spells and not anything with a meta-magic feat going, so, for example, your Trusty Cleric was not going to get their mana back just waiting around.
if you wanted mana back, again, you are going have to do that through, well, mainly gear and consumables (potions mostly), and some abilities, like Divine Vitality, can give someone else mana.
In this case, again, the game is a Resource Management game, and while over time, players can earn means by which they can have near unlimited resources, or at least the appearance of unlimited, but it more the illusions of being what they have far exceeds what it takes to complete a dungeon, but that takes some serious time and grinding, and also means you paid your dues sucking hard in the start.
So.. DDO, does hold somewhat true to that foundation of not being a manawhore and blowing your spell list in the first fight.
In other games however, like for example GW2, the line between "Caster" and "Fighter" is blurry, as everyone has mystical/magical abilities, so there no sense of being Non-Magical in many of these other games.
It can be, and many use it as such. What Second Life is largely depends on where you happen to be in it.
Not quite. SWL progression also increases the ability of the character, through stat gains and an increasingly large pool of active and passive abilities one can select from to bring to the table. It isn't about gear alone.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Thanks for the clarification. I was going off of my time playing during beta. One reason I didn't like DDO was the regenerating Mana. I'm glad they changed that
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR