Lets talk about a "level grind" game where you have no progression. Where your level only indicates how much content you've consumed.
Ya see? Shoe on the other foot, some people are assuming that "no levels" = no progression. Even Horizontal Progression doesn't necessarily mean no progression. Any system can have progression or not, and at any rate of progression (power increases).
The problems for MassivelyMO's start with large power increases, and end with all the problems that brings.
I think single player or small multiplayer games lend themselves more to a progression-less environment because they can be carried by story.
Once you get into a persistent online world with masses of people, the story becomes harder to sustain and thus you need some other form of progression.
A level-less one is certainly possible, but it kind of blatantly exposes the "hamster wheel" that more games try to hide.
I seen this argument repeated a number of times on this page of this thread. I read the comments, I just dont respond to every comment.
The flaw in this logic is that in every MMORPG with Character Level grind , there is always an Endgame in which you either stop Character leveling and progress in other manners, or you have a soft cap in which the levels after that point are pretty much just for show and your main progression switches to another form.
I am using WoW as an example since its one of the most popular MMOs that good chance people can relate to what I am trying to detail, but just about all Character Level grinder MMOs do this same thing.
WoW came out in 2004, and their first expansion came out in 2007 or 2008 i believe. So thats almost 3 years of Vanilla WoW in which most dedicated players had already managed to reach the hard cap level of 60, also known as Endgame, in which your character stops leveling.
But through most of that time, you still had progression of some kind. It just wasn't Character Levels. You had Mounts to get, Raids and Dungeons to do to unlock attunements for more Raids and Dungeons. You had Gear upgrades to grind for, especially for specific purposes such as Resistance Gear. You also had Battleground PvP Ranks to grind and PvP Gear to unlock. There was so much more to do in the game other than Character Level Grinding that so many people are overlooking.
Each of you more than likely played one of these games to Max level and experienced Endgame content for long periods at a time.
Whats stopping developers from making a MMORPG in which all that Endgame play was day one? No Character Levels or any of that. Day one, you dropped into the world. There are events and factions all over the world. You set off to gear up your character through different routes such as crafting or running Dungeons or Raids or Open World Events and Quest. You do task to unlock attunements. You discover new abilities for your class in the game world as your play and do task. You join a PvP Faction in which you help your faction build and defend a Faction Major city from enemy faction. You join a NPC third party Faction, doing task that they need done to gain higher faction with them and gain new rewards and helping expand the NPC faction into bigger side story objectives and group goals. All zones are available and built around endgame. Some NPCs harder than others and require more players or better gear with specific stats to deal with. All Dungeons and Raids available if you unlock the attunement for it and have the gear stats you need to beat it. You can help build smaller towns with other players of your faction with crafting stations and all that stuff.
And so much more. All of this is a MMORPG that day one has no character levels and you free to got your own journey. Which developers still can make story's and new content to add to the game, again no different from how Blizzard adds new story with each expansion and same with GW2 adds story with each living Story, but without Character Levels
As said, you free to create your own journey. You all all may start at letter "A", but it's totally your choice to go from "A" to "B" to "C",,,,,,, to "Z" Or you may choose to go "A" to "G" to "Y" to "Z" to "I" to "B" back to "A" and on and on. Its up to you , DAY ONE. Because the Whole Game is endgame. Endgame starts day one. There is no meaningless progression as seen in Character Level based MMORPGs.
And yet we (players) start as babies, grow "in level" to progress through school, then get the boring jobs and careers, where we ONLY have money to drive us. Sure a few lucky ones get to do what they love, but of us "players" do whatever job we can make a career out of.
Then what? We die. There is an ending. A last chapter.
Ever see a TV series that runs on too long? An MMO that should have pulled the plug ages ago? They get boring. The patterns glare at you and you finally realize that this is all just a huge waste of time. Hopefully, you've made friends in the game that keep you coming back. Today, that's not happening as often anymore.
Or do you want a game where time magically stands still until you're bored with the whole thing? This is the biggest part of a living world that I miss in video games: time.
Thats a more modern societal structure. Most fantasy games are based in old ancient cultures in which the child is born and can go in a number of different directions. Some go into the military, some become farmers, some become explorers and some become scholars, etc. You do as you will. Some travel to one place and never leave. Some just travel the known and unknown worlds. Was up to you. Our society we have kids go to Pre K, then kindergarten, then Elementary, then middle school, then high school, then College, then to some type of job until you retire with the exception being those that go in a different route. Not much freedom when life is pre-planned for you.
I think single player or small multiplayer games lend themselves more to a progression-less environment because they can be carried by story.
Once you get into a persistent online world with masses of people, the story becomes harder to sustain and thus you need some other form of progression.
A level-less one is certainly possible, but it kind of blatantly exposes the "hamster wheel" that more games try to hide.
I seen this argument repeated a number of times on this page of this thread. I read the comments, I just dont respond to every comment.
The flaw in this logic is that in every MMORPG with Character Level grind , there is always an Endgame in which you either stop Character leveling and progress in other manners, or you have a soft cap in which the levels after that point are pretty much just for show and your main progression switches to another form.
I am using WoW as an example since its one of the most popular MMOs that good chance people can relate to what I am trying to detail, but just about all Character Level grinder MMOs do this same thing.
WoW came out in 2004, and their first expansion came out in 2007 or 2008 i believe. So thats almost 3 years of Vanilla WoW in which most dedicated players had already managed to reach the hard cap level of 60, also known as Endgame, in which your character stops leveling.
But through most of that time, you still had progression of some kind. It just wasn't Character Levels. You had Mounts to get, Raids and Dungeons to do to unlock attunements for more Raids and Dungeons. You had Gear upgrades to grind for, especially for specific purposes such as Resistance Gear. You also had Battleground PvP Ranks to grind and PvP Gear to unlock. There was so much more to do in the game other than Character Level Grinding that so many people are overlooking.
Each of you more than likely played one of these games to Max level and experienced Endgame content for long periods at a time.
Whats stopping developers from making a MMORPG in which all that Endgame play was day one? No Character Levels or any of that. Day one, you dropped into the world. There are events and factions all over the world. You set off to gear up your character through different routes such as crafting or running Dungeons or Raids or Open World Events and Quest. You do task to unlock attunements. You discover new abilities for your class in the game world as your play and do task. You join a PvP Faction in which you help your faction build and defend a Faction Major city from enemy faction. You join a NPC third party Faction, doing task that they need done to gain higher faction with them and gain new rewards and helping expand the NPC faction into bigger side story objectives and group goals. All zones are available and built around endgame. Some NPCs harder than others and require more players or better gear with specific stats to deal with. All Dungeons and Raids available if you unlock the attunement for it and have the gear stats you need to beat it. You can help build smaller towns with other players of your faction with crafting stations and all that stuff.
And so much more. All of this is a MMORPG that day one has no character levels and you free to got your own journey. Which developers still can make story's and new content to add to the game, again no different from how Blizzard adds new story with each expansion and same with GW2 adds story with each living Story, but without Character Levels
As said, you free to create your own journey. You all all may start at letter "A", but it's totally your choice to go from "A" to "B" to "C",,,,,,, to "Z" Or you may choose to go "A" to "G" to "Y" to "Z" to "I" to "B" back to "A" and on and on. Its up to you , DAY ONE. Because the Whole Game is endgame. Endgame starts day one. There is no meaningless progression as seen in Character Level based MMORPGs.
Wow that was a real lot and I'm not sure most of it applies to what I posted. As I said, you can certainly have a level less approach but it further exposes the hamster wheel. You gave a perfect example when you said "Or you may choose to go "A" to "G" to "Y" to "Z" to "I" to "B" back to "A" and on and on." You literally gave an example where you end up right where you start.
Also, the game you describe has no more content than a level-based one. If I go A-Z in a straight line or I randomly go through all the letters.. at the end of the day I have the same amount of content. I guess the only difference is that at the "end" I have more places to choose from to repeatedly grind and repeat content? I mean, if I have gone A-Z in order or A-Z randomly it just means that I can repeat a wider number of zones in the level-less version? I guess that's a slight improvement.
And when you talk about building towns or factions or world events... all could apply to both worlds.
I think most folk would say that you don't NEED levels, but you need some sense of progression, either through story or equipment or character development.
no you don't have the same amount of content.
In a Character Level based MMORPG, you progress "A" to "B" to "C", etc to "Z", with Z being Endgame and the longest letter since that's where most of your play time will be. There is no going backwards from Z. Once you get to Z (using Vanilla WoW as an example here) which is Level 60, all progression onwards come from "Z" content. Not "Y" (Level 50 content), not "X"(Level 40 content), not "W(Level 30)", not "V(Level 20 content)",etc, just comes from "Z" (Level 60 content)
In the Character Leveless system as in the example I gave, there is not Level Content. "A" content allows progression, just as "G" content provides progression, just as "Y" content provides progression, just as "Z" content provides progressio, etc etc, which is why in this system you can return back to "A" if you want, because "A" content still provides progression. Its not something you out-level like you would in the "A" content (Level 1)in the Character Level based scenario mentioned above.
Aren't levels "intrinsic" to RPGs, though? If so, an MMORPG by it's very nature needs levels.
By the way, any number after anything (class, skills, abilities) are levels, ie: a way to measure growth.
Maybe so if you take inspiration from D&D, but Role-Playing can be anything, so riddle me this. Are both the story heavy games like Planescape(or Disco) AND dungeon romps like Icewind or Diablo RPGs? Don't you play, you know, roles in both of them?
I play "the role" of a boxloader in Tetris. Does that make it a role playing game? I play "the role" of a soldier in Call of Duty. Is that now a role playing game, too? I play "the role" of a detective in Who Dunnit, a general in Stratego, an art collector in Masterpiece... RPGs?
With that said, no levels are NOT intrinsical to RPGs, we merely grew accustomed to that state of things because of D&D's super powerful influence(then FF, then Diablo / EQ and then there's no going back). Are Guild Wars 1 bad because they have a shallow leveling experience? Is Disco somehow not ok because it don't have traditional(anything) leveling scheme?
I don't think so. I would call them interactive books
so if ( hypothetically speaking) was the original lead developer of World of Warcraft and I built the exact same game, ( class for class, faction for faction, quest for quest, dungeon for dungeon, raid for raid, combat for combat, world for world, etc)
But the one major change I make was that there is no Character Levels. What kind of game would you consider my World of Warcraft game?
I think single player or small multiplayer games lend themselves more to a progression-less environment because they can be carried by story.
Once you get into a persistent online world with masses of people, the story becomes harder to sustain and thus you need some other form of progression.
A level-less one is certainly possible, but it kind of blatantly exposes the "hamster wheel" that more games try to hide.
I seen this argument repeated a number of times on this page of this thread. I read the comments, I just dont respond to every comment.
The flaw in this logic is that in every MMORPG with Character Level grind , there is always an Endgame in which you either stop Character leveling and progress in other manners, or you have a soft cap in which the levels after that point are pretty much just for show and your main progression switches to another form.
I am using WoW as an example since its one of the most popular MMOs that good chance people can relate to what I am trying to detail, but just about all Character Level grinder MMOs do this same thing.
WoW came out in 2004, and their first expansion came out in 2007 or 2008 i believe. So thats almost 3 years of Vanilla WoW in which most dedicated players had already managed to reach the hard cap level of 60, also known as Endgame, in which your character stops leveling.
But through most of that time, you still had progression of some kind. It just wasn't Character Levels. You had Mounts to get, Raids and Dungeons to do to unlock attunements for more Raids and Dungeons. You had Gear upgrades to grind for, especially for specific purposes such as Resistance Gear. You also had Battleground PvP Ranks to grind and PvP Gear to unlock. There was so much more to do in the game other than Character Level Grinding that so many people are overlooking.
Each of you more than likely played one of these games to Max level and experienced Endgame content for long periods at a time.
Whats stopping developers from making a MMORPG in which all that Endgame play was day one? No Character Levels or any of that. Day one, you dropped into the world. There are events and factions all over the world. You set off to gear up your character through different routes such as crafting or running Dungeons or Raids or Open World Events and Quest. You do task to unlock attunements. You discover new abilities for your class in the game world as your play and do task. You join a PvP Faction in which you help your faction build and defend a Faction Major city from enemy faction. You join a NPC third party Faction, doing task that they need done to gain higher faction with them and gain new rewards and helping expand the NPC faction into bigger side story objectives and group goals. All zones are available and built around endgame. Some NPCs harder than others and require more players or better gear with specific stats to deal with. All Dungeons and Raids available if you unlock the attunement for it and have the gear stats you need to beat it. You can help build smaller towns with other players of your faction with crafting stations and all that stuff.
And so much more. All of this is a MMORPG that day one has no character levels and you free to got your own journey. Which developers still can make story's and new content to add to the game, again no different from how Blizzard adds new story with each expansion and same with GW2 adds story with each living Story, but without Character Levels
As said, you free to create your own journey. You all all may start at letter "A", but it's totally your choice to go from "A" to "B" to "C",,,,,,, to "Z" Or you may choose to go "A" to "G" to "Y" to "Z" to "I" to "B" back to "A" and on and on. Its up to you , DAY ONE. Because the Whole Game is endgame. Endgame starts day one. There is no meaningless progression as seen in Character Level based MMORPGs.
Wow that was a real lot and I'm not sure most of it applies to what I posted. As I said, you can certainly have a level less approach but it further exposes the hamster wheel. You gave a perfect example when you said "Or you may choose to go "A" to "G" to "Y" to "Z" to "I" to "B" back to "A" and on and on." You literally gave an example where you end up right where you start.
Also, the game you describe has no more content than a level-based one. If I go A-Z in a straight line or I randomly go through all the letters.. at the end of the day I have the same amount of content. I guess the only difference is that at the "end" I have more places to choose from to repeatedly grind and repeat content? I mean, if I have gone A-Z in order or A-Z randomly it just means that I can repeat a wider number of zones in the level-less version? I guess that's a slight improvement.
And when you talk about building towns or factions or world events... all could apply to both worlds.
I think most folk would say that you don't NEED levels, but you need some sense of progression, either through story or equipment or character development.
no you don't have the same amount of content.
In a Character Level based MMORPG, you progress "A" to "B" to "C", etc to "Z", with Z being Endgame and the longest letter since that's where most of your play time will be. There is no going backwards from Z. Once you get to Z (using Vanilla WoW as an example here) which is Level 60, all progression onwards come from "Z" content. Not "Y" (Level 50 content), not "X"(Level 40 content), not "W(Level 30)", not "V(Level 20 content)",etc, just comes from "Z" (Level 60 content)
In the Character Leveless system as in the example I gave, there is not Level Content. "A" content allows progression, just as "G" content provides progression, just as "Y" content provides progression, just as "Z" content provides progressio, etc etc, which is why in this system you can return back to "A" if you want, because "A" content still provides progression. Its not something you out-level like you would in the "A" content (Level 1)in the Character Level based scenario mentioned above.
It's the exact same amount of content... Like I said, it's just a matter of rerunning a wider number of zones for a single larger one, but it's the same amount of overall content.
If there is.. lets call it content node A, and I go there at level 10, consume it and move on. It's the same as if I go there in the level-less game, consume it and move on.
If you are saying that you have more options to RE-RUN content in your scenario... sure... but you are still RE-RUNNING it. It's not magically extra content.
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I think single player or small multiplayer games lend themselves more to a progression-less environment because they can be carried by story.
Once you get into a persistent online world with masses of people, the story becomes harder to sustain and thus you need some other form of progression.
A level-less one is certainly possible, but it kind of blatantly exposes the "hamster wheel" that more games try to hide.
I seen this argument repeated a number of times on this page of this thread. I read the comments, I just dont respond to every comment.
The flaw in this logic is that in every MMORPG with Character Level grind , there is always an Endgame in which you either stop Character leveling and progress in other manners, or you have a soft cap in which the levels after that point are pretty much just for show and your main progression switches to another form.
I am using WoW as an example since its one of the most popular MMOs that good chance people can relate to what I am trying to detail, but just about all Character Level grinder MMOs do this same thing.
WoW came out in 2004, and their first expansion came out in 2007 or 2008 i believe. So thats almost 3 years of Vanilla WoW in which most dedicated players had already managed to reach the hard cap level of 60, also known as Endgame, in which your character stops leveling.
But through most of that time, you still had progression of some kind. It just wasn't Character Levels. You had Mounts to get, Raids and Dungeons to do to unlock attunements for more Raids and Dungeons. You had Gear upgrades to grind for, especially for specific purposes such as Resistance Gear. You also had Battleground PvP Ranks to grind and PvP Gear to unlock. There was so much more to do in the game other than Character Level Grinding that so many people are overlooking.
Each of you more than likely played one of these games to Max level and experienced Endgame content for long periods at a time.
Whats stopping developers from making a MMORPG in which all that Endgame play was day one? No Character Levels or any of that. Day one, you dropped into the world. There are events and factions all over the world. You set off to gear up your character through different routes such as crafting or running Dungeons or Raids or Open World Events and Quest. You do task to unlock attunements. You discover new abilities for your class in the game world as your play and do task. You join a PvP Faction in which you help your faction build and defend a Faction Major city from enemy faction. You join a NPC third party Faction, doing task that they need done to gain higher faction with them and gain new rewards and helping expand the NPC faction into bigger side story objectives and group goals. All zones are available and built around endgame. Some NPCs harder than others and require more players or better gear with specific stats to deal with. All Dungeons and Raids available if you unlock the attunement for it and have the gear stats you need to beat it. You can help build smaller towns with other players of your faction with crafting stations and all that stuff.
And so much more. All of this is a MMORPG that day one has no character levels and you free to got your own journey. Which developers still can make story's and new content to add to the game, again no different from how Blizzard adds new story with each expansion and same with GW2 adds story with each living Story, but without Character Levels
As said, you free to create your own journey. You all all may start at letter "A", but it's totally your choice to go from "A" to "B" to "C",,,,,,, to "Z" Or you may choose to go "A" to "G" to "Y" to "Z" to "I" to "B" back to "A" and on and on. Its up to you , DAY ONE. Because the Whole Game is endgame. Endgame starts day one. There is no meaningless progression as seen in Character Level based MMORPGs.
And yet we (players) start as babies, grow "in level" to progress through school, then get the boring jobs and careers, where we ONLY have money to drive us. Sure a few lucky ones get to do what they love, but of us "players" do whatever job we can make a career out of.
Then what? We die. There is an ending. A last chapter.
Ever see a TV series that runs on too long? An MMO that should have pulled the plug ages ago? They get boring. The patterns glare at you and you finally realize that this is all just a huge waste of time. Hopefully, you've made friends in the game that keep you coming back. Today, that's not happening as often anymore.
Or do you want a game where time magically stands still until you're bored with the whole thing? This is the biggest part of a living world that I miss in video games: time.
Thats a more modern societal structure. Most fantasy games are based in old ancient cultures in which the child is born and can go in a number of different directions. Some go into the military, some become farmers, some become explorers and some become scholars, etc. You do as you will. Some travel to one place and never leave. Some just travel the known and unknown worlds. Was up to you. Our society we have kids go to Pre K, then kindergarten, then Elementary, then middle school, then high school, then College, then to some type of job until you retire with the exception being those that go in a different route. Not much freedom when life is pre-planned for you.
Not really. Ancient societies were NOT mobile. You did what you were born into. Exactly as your parents did. You had little to no choice in your life path. You could not "get rich" just by trying to do so. You left the farm or city and died.
Ancient societies had very little freedom.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Aren't levels "intrinsic" to RPGs, though? If so, an MMORPG by it's very nature needs levels.
By the way, any number after anything (class, skills, abilities) are levels, ie: a way to measure growth.
Maybe so if you take inspiration from D&D, but Role-Playing can be anything, so riddle me this. Are both the story heavy games like Planescape(or Disco) AND dungeon romps like Icewind or Diablo RPGs? Don't you play, you know, roles in both of them?
I play "the role" of a boxloader in Tetris. Does that make it a role playing game? I play "the role" of a soldier in Call of Duty. Is that now a role playing game, too? I play "the role" of a detective in Who Dunnit, a general in Stratego, an art collector in Masterpiece... RPGs?
With that said, no levels are NOT intrinsical to RPGs, we merely grew accustomed to that state of things because of D&D's super powerful influence(then FF, then Diablo / EQ and then there's no going back). Are Guild Wars 1 bad because they have a shallow leveling experience? Is Disco somehow not ok because it don't have traditional(anything) leveling scheme?
I don't think so. I would call them interactive books
so if ( hypothetically speaking) was the original lead developer of World of Warcraft and I built the exact same game, ( class for class, faction for faction, quest for quest, dungeon for dungeon, raid for raid, combat for combat, world for world, etc)
But the one major change I make was that there is no Character Levels. What kind of game would you consider my World of Warcraft game?
An interactive story or adventure game.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Aren't levels "intrinsic" to RPGs, though? If so, an MMORPG by it's very nature needs levels.
By the way, any number after anything (class, skills, abilities) are levels, ie: a way to measure growth.
we have levels because we had levels.
Well, that and the fact gamers overall seem to prefer leveling as a mechanic, as evidenced by how much money they've spent over the years on games which have them.
Most gamers don't even or picture the concept of levelless MMORPG. In my experience neither do a lot of informed gamers here. Not surprisingly people get what they expect.
I realized a long time ago that I would have preferred the genre to be more action adventure and virtual world than DnD RPG and combat focused. I rather have with abilities and gear based more on exploring and doing things. Most MMORPG are just combat focused with quest given as a excuse to kill. All abilities have become combat focused.
Legend of Zelda to me is a good example of progression where you get more hardy, get gear that does different things.
Quest and levels makes every MMORPG feel the same because ultimately that is all MMORPG do. Going to quest guy, go to way point, kill stuff and return describes almost every MMORPG in the last decade. If that is all there will be then you will have a mostly dying genre. It just sucks for most players. Just will be a few diehards playing Asian cash grabs and ancient MMORPG.
Aren't levels "intrinsic" to RPGs, though? If so, an MMORPG by it's very nature needs levels.
By the way, any number after anything (class, skills, abilities) are levels, ie: a way to measure growth.
we have levels because we had levels.
Well, that and the fact gamers overall seem to prefer leveling as a mechanic, as evidenced by how much money they've spent over the years on games which have them.
Most gamers don't even or picture the concept of levelless MMORPG. In my experience neither do a lot of informed gamers here. Not surprisingly people get what they expect.
As one of the "unenlightened", levels are a main aspect for me. Level-less RPGs sound so boring to me. Sure, I have fun with Minecraft... for a bit. After awhile, I just start a new game. There, levels are used for enchanting only. You don't get tougher, faster, or more accurate in Minecraft. When that crappy Creeper kills you you lose 10-40 levels. You do get better gear, though (leather to iron to diamond).
In your follow-up post, you talked about combat-centric games. I 100000000000% (that's A LOT of percent!) so agree with this. There is very little to do in these games other than combat. If there is, it is usually an afterthought and you can tell.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I realized a long time ago that I would have preferred the genre to be more action adventure and virtual world than DnD RPG and combat focused. I rather have with abilities and gear based more on exploring and doing things. Most MMORPG are just combat focused with quest given as a excuse to kill. All abilities have become combat focused.
Legend of Zelda to me is a good example of progression where you get more hardy, get gear that does different things.
Quest and levels makes every MMORPG feel the same because ultimately that is all MMORPG do. Going to quest guy, go to way point, kill stuff and return describes almost every MMORPG in the last decade. If that is all there will be then you will have a mostly dying genre. It just sucks for most players. Just will be a few diehards playing Asian cash grabs and ancient MMORPG.
It's also interesting that the top 5 MMOs in the genre all fall under what you describe as crap basically. The design of those games are not flawed. What is flawed is that we have a bazillion of these games in the genre. I agree that someone needs to design a new kind of MMO, but WoW made every studio think they can be billionaires.
I wouldn't call it crap. It's just a beaten to death formula. I also think it gets in the way of what a MMORPG could be or been.
My opinion is that the genre should have been evolving into AI/procedural based content where leveling in the DnD sense would kind of get in the way or be trivial. As most leveling in the genre is learning how to play and I think most of us are beyond that.
I realized a long time ago that I would have preferred the genre to be more action adventure and virtual world than DnD RPG and combat focused. I rather have with abilities and gear based more on exploring and doing things. Most MMORPG are just combat focused with quest given as a excuse to kill. All abilities have become combat focused.
Legend of Zelda to me is a good example of progression where you get more hardy, get gear that does different things.
Quest and levels makes every MMORPG feel the same because ultimately that is all MMORPG do. Going to quest guy, go to way point, kill stuff and return describes almost every MMORPG in the last decade. If that is all there will be then you will have a mostly dying genre. It just sucks for most players. Just will be a few diehards playing Asian cash grabs and ancient MMORPG.
It's also interesting that the top 5 MMOs in the genre all fall under what you describe as crap basically. The design of those games are not flawed. What is flawed is that we have a bazillion of these games in the genre. I agree that someone needs to design a new kind of MMO, but WoW made every studio think they can be billionaires.
I wouldn't call it crap. It's just a beaten to death formula. I also think it gets in the way of what a MMORPG could be or been.
As most leveling in the genre is learning how to play and I think most of us are beyond that.
Clearly you have never seen me play, I need all of the “practice” I can get before being tossed into the den of lions.
Trouble is, in most of these games the past 10 or so years, I can never find like minded people to group with, most are “rushing” to the top and when grouping it is quite common to see “LFG - Must know fights or will be kicked or some such.”
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I guess a fundamental question is do you have a goal? If so, then you do things to progress to that goal. It's the same in any kind of game.
Take chess, for example. There is no role-playing, no levels, but there is a goal. You can measure your progression towards that goal. Actions can be rated in terms of how much they affect getting to the goal. You get a feeling of achievement at the end.
If there is no goal, then there is no achievement at the end. Humans don't do well in that kind of environment. Even in real life.
Let's say there is a single-player game where you start out with everything already accomplished. You have all items, buildings, farms, skills, etc, that you could ever get. Why would you play a game like that? Just to sit on a riverbank and fish?
I guess a fundamental question is do you have a goal? If so, then you do things to progress to that goal. It's the same in any kind of game.
Take chess, for example. There is no role-playing, no levels, but there is a goal. You can measure your progression towards that goal. Actions can be rated in terms of how much they affect getting to the goal. You get a feeling of achievement at the end.
If there is no goal, then there is no achievement at the end. Humans don't do well in that kind of environment. Even in real life.
Let's say there is a single-player game where you start out with everything already accomplished. You have all items, buildings, farms, skills, etc, that you could ever get. Why would you play a game like that? Just to sit on a riverbank and fish?
Character Levelless and and No Progression are two different things. Are all progression finished if a player boost to level 80 in Guildwars2?
What about in WoW, if a player reach level 60 in Vanilla WoW did all progression end? If so, what were players doing all that time between 2004 and 2007?
I guess a fundamental question is do you have a goal? If so, then you do things to progress to that goal. It's the same in any kind of game.
Take chess, for example. There is no role-playing, no levels, but there is a goal. You can measure your progression towards that goal. Actions can be rated in terms of how much they affect getting to the goal. You get a feeling of achievement at the end.
If there is no goal, then there is no achievement at the end. Humans don't do well in that kind of environment. Even in real life.
Let's say there is a single-player game where you start out with everything already accomplished. You have all items, buildings, farms, skills, etc, that you could ever get. Why would you play a game like that? Just to sit on a riverbank and fish?
I think goals can be had outside of combat. In modern MMORPG levels aren't even a real goal anymore. It's progression of gear and stats. Levels and leveling is trivial.
The problem is the only real goal is character progression and combat. Seems rather pedestrian for the scale of the genre.
I would like game play for explorers, crafters, community builders, combatants and achievers.
I guess a fundamental question is do you have a goal? If so, then you do things to progress to that goal. It's the same in any kind of game.
Take chess, for example. There is no role-playing, no levels, but there is a goal. You can measure your progression towards that goal. Actions can be rated in terms of how much they affect getting to the goal. You get a feeling of achievement at the end.
If there is no goal, then there is no achievement at the end. Humans don't do well in that kind of environment. Even in real life.
Let's say there is a single-player game where you start out with everything already accomplished. You have all items, buildings, farms, skills, etc, that you could ever get. Why would you play a game like that? Just to sit on a riverbank and fish?
I think goals can be had outside of combat. In modern MMORPG levels aren't even a real goal anymore. It's progression of gear and stats. Levels and leveling is trivial.
The problem is the only real goal is character progression and combat. Seems rather pedestrian for the scale of the genre.
I would like game play for explorers, crafters, community builders, combatants and achievers.
Sooo......... Progressing Level of Gear and Stats ....
Same thing ... you cannot have a competetive MMORPG without levels of some sort /end
I guess a fundamental question is do you have a goal? If so, then you do things to progress to that goal. It's the same in any kind of game.
Take chess, for example. There is no role-playing, no levels, but there is a goal. You can measure your progression towards that goal. Actions can be rated in terms of how much they affect getting to the goal. You get a feeling of achievement at the end.
If there is no goal, then there is no achievement at the end. Humans don't do well in that kind of environment. Even in real life.
Let's say there is a single-player game where you start out with everything already accomplished. You have all items, buildings, farms, skills, etc, that you could ever get. Why would you play a game like that? Just to sit on a riverbank and fish?
Character Levelless and and No Progression are two different things. Are all progression finished if a player boost to level 80 in Guildwars2?
What about in WoW, if a player reach level 60 in Vanilla WoW did all progression end? If so, what were players doing all that time between 2004 and 2007?
As I mentioned here people don't really get levelless games.
It's the difference between fighting a champion UFC fighter and fighting Goku.
100 people could pound on Goku and his power level is so high he wouldn't be phased. He could level up and do the same to a fighter who was just beating his ass.
UFC fighter while going to kick people's asses would definitely be in a fight for his life vs. 10 average people. UFC fighter could also lose to a lesser fighter if he had an off night.
I guess a fundamental question is do you have a goal? If so, then you do things to progress to that goal. It's the same in any kind of game.
Take chess, for example. There is no role-playing, no levels, but there is a goal. You can measure your progression towards that goal. Actions can be rated in terms of how much they affect getting to the goal. You get a feeling of achievement at the end.
If there is no goal, then there is no achievement at the end. Humans don't do well in that kind of environment. Even in real life.
Let's say there is a single-player game where you start out with everything already accomplished. You have all items, buildings, farms, skills, etc, that you could ever get. Why would you play a game like that? Just to sit on a riverbank and fish?
I think goals can be had outside of combat. In modern MMORPG levels aren't even a real goal anymore. It's progression of gear and stats. Levels and leveling is trivial.
The problem is the only real goal is character progression and combat. Seems rather pedestrian for the scale of the genre.
I would like game play for explorers, crafters, community builders, combatants and achievers.
Sooo......... Progressing Level of Gear and Stats ....
Same thing ... you cannot have a competetive MMORPG without levels of some sort /end
Levels of some sort? I think when people talk about levels they are talking about vertical progression with each level being drastic power platform. A level 100 wizard will be a level 75 fighter in melee type action. It is not necessary.
I guess a fundamental question is do you have a goal? If so, then you do things to progress to that goal. It's the same in any kind of game.
Take chess, for example. There is no role-playing, no levels, but there is a goal. You can measure your progression towards that goal. Actions can be rated in terms of how much they affect getting to the goal. You get a feeling of achievement at the end.
If there is no goal, then there is no achievement at the end. Humans don't do well in that kind of environment. Even in real life.
Let's say there is a single-player game where you start out with everything already accomplished. You have all items, buildings, farms, skills, etc, that you could ever get. Why would you play a game like that? Just to sit on a riverbank and fish?
I think goals can be had outside of combat. In modern MMORPG levels aren't even a real goal anymore. It's progression of gear and stats. Levels and leveling is trivial.
The problem is the only real goal is character progression and combat. Seems rather pedestrian for the scale of the genre.
I would like game play for explorers, crafters, community builders, combatants and achievers.
Sooo......... Progressing Level of Gear and Stats ....
Same thing ... you cannot have a competetive MMORPG without levels of some sort /end
Levels of some sort? I think when people talk about levels they are talking about vertical progression with each level being drastic power platform. A level 100 wizard will be a level 75 fighter in melee type action. It is not necessary.
If your acquring different Levels/Tiers etc of Gear or Stats its the same thing ...
I guess a fundamental question is do you have a goal? If so, then you do things to progress to that goal. It's the same in any kind of game.
Take chess, for example. There is no role-playing, no levels, but there is a goal. You can measure your progression towards that goal. Actions can be rated in terms of how much they affect getting to the goal. You get a feeling of achievement at the end.
If there is no goal, then there is no achievement at the end. Humans don't do well in that kind of environment. Even in real life.
Let's say there is a single-player game where you start out with everything already accomplished. You have all items, buildings, farms, skills, etc, that you could ever get. Why would you play a game like that? Just to sit on a riverbank and fish?
I think goals can be had outside of combat. In modern MMORPG levels aren't even a real goal anymore. It's progression of gear and stats. Levels and leveling is trivial.
The problem is the only real goal is character progression and combat. Seems rather pedestrian for the scale of the genre.
I would like game play for explorers, crafters, community builders, combatants and achievers.
Sooo......... Progressing Level of Gear and Stats ....
Same thing ... you cannot have a competetive MMORPG without levels of some sort /end
Levels of some sort? I think when people talk about levels they are talking about vertical progression with each level being drastic power platform. A level 100 wizard will be a level 75 fighter in melee type action. It is not necessary.
If your acquring different Levels/Tiers etc of Gear or Stats its the same thing ...
I've been saying that here for years. I always though that disguising levels as some other form of progression be it with gear, progressive skill acquisition or whatever was an obvious and transparent way of accomplishing the same exact type of progression that levels accomplish in games that rely on that.
And it has zero to do with steep or gradual progression - it can be mild or extreme with or without levels.
Diablo 3 has leveling 1-70 but that progression with levels is peanuts compared to the huge and over the top progression you get once you reach 70 and start progressing with gear sets and legendary items to make you more than 1000 fold more powerful than a vanilla level 70 without that gear.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
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“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I guess a fundamental question is do you have a goal? If so, then you do things to progress to that goal. It's the same in any kind of game.
Take chess, for example. There is no role-playing, no levels, but there is a goal. You can measure your progression towards that goal. Actions can be rated in terms of how much they affect getting to the goal. You get a feeling of achievement at the end.
If there is no goal, then there is no achievement at the end. Humans don't do well in that kind of environment. Even in real life.
Let's say there is a single-player game where you start out with everything already accomplished. You have all items, buildings, farms, skills, etc, that you could ever get. Why would you play a game like that? Just to sit on a riverbank and fish?
I think goals can be had outside of combat. In modern MMORPG levels aren't even a real goal anymore. It's progression of gear and stats. Levels and leveling is trivial.
The problem is the only real goal is character progression and combat. Seems rather pedestrian for the scale of the genre.
I would like game play for explorers, crafters, community builders, combatants and achievers.
Sooo......... Progressing Level of Gear and Stats ....
Same thing ... you cannot have a competetive MMORPG without levels of some sort /end
Levels of some sort? I think when people talk about levels they are talking about vertical progression with each level being drastic power platform. A level 100 wizard will be a level 75 fighter in melee type action. It is not necessary.
If your acquring different Levels/Tiers etc of Gear or Stats its the same thing ...
And you don't need that either honestly. Again, that is a combat focused outlook. Even this you could just be getting situational gear. The point of being levelless is to limit power creep vs. finding alternative means to push it.
I guess a fundamental question is do you have a goal? If so, then you do things to progress to that goal. It's the same in any kind of game.
Take chess, for example. There is no role-playing, no levels, but there is a goal. You can measure your progression towards that goal. Actions can be rated in terms of how much they affect getting to the goal. You get a feeling of achievement at the end.
If there is no goal, then there is no achievement at the end. Humans don't do well in that kind of environment. Even in real life.
Let's say there is a single-player game where you start out with everything already accomplished. You have all items, buildings, farms, skills, etc, that you could ever get. Why would you play a game like that? Just to sit on a riverbank and fish?
I think goals can be had outside of combat. In modern MMORPG levels aren't even a real goal anymore. It's progression of gear and stats. Levels and leveling is trivial.
The problem is the only real goal is character progression and combat. Seems rather pedestrian for the scale of the genre.
I would like game play for explorers, crafters, community builders, combatants and achievers.
Sooo......... Progressing Level of Gear and Stats ....
Same thing ... you cannot have a competetive MMORPG without levels of some sort /end
Levels of some sort? I think when people talk about levels they are talking about vertical progression with each level being drastic power platform. A level 100 wizard will be a level 75 fighter in melee type action. It is not necessary.
If your acquring different Levels/Tiers etc of Gear or Stats its the same thing ...
I've been saying that here for years. I always though that disguising levels as some other form of progression be it with gear, progressive skill acquisition or whatever was an obvious and transparent way of accomplishing the same exact type of progression that levels accomplish in games that rely on that.
And it has zero to do with steep or gradual progression - it can be mild or extreme with or without levels.
Diablo 3 has leveling 1-70 but that progression with levels is peanuts compared to the huge and over the top progression you get once you reach 70 and start progressing with gear sets and legendary items to make you more than 1000 fold more powerful than a vanilla level 70 without that gear.
another ex. is SWL .... altho there is a lvl (max 50) it is meaningless , you are leveling your gear the entire time , which is where all your power comes from ..
You can be lvl 50 but if your gear is not Lvl 25 Superior or better you will be getting wrecked over and over .. its all about the gear ..
Good point on D3 as ARPG already to the gear lvl progression system
I guess a fundamental question is do you have a goal? If so, then you do things to progress to that goal. It's the same in any kind of game.
Take chess, for example. There is no role-playing, no levels, but there is a goal. You can measure your progression towards that goal. Actions can be rated in terms of how much they affect getting to the goal. You get a feeling of achievement at the end.
If there is no goal, then there is no achievement at the end. Humans don't do well in that kind of environment. Even in real life.
Let's say there is a single-player game where you start out with everything already accomplished. You have all items, buildings, farms, skills, etc, that you could ever get. Why would you play a game like that? Just to sit on a riverbank and fish?
I think goals can be had outside of combat. In modern MMORPG levels aren't even a real goal anymore. It's progression of gear and stats. Levels and leveling is trivial.
The problem is the only real goal is character progression and combat. Seems rather pedestrian for the scale of the genre.
I would like game play for explorers, crafters, community builders, combatants and achievers.
Sooo......... Progressing Level of Gear and Stats ....
Same thing ... you cannot have a competetive MMORPG without levels of some sort /end
Levels of some sort? I think when people talk about levels they are talking about vertical progression with each level being drastic power platform. A level 100 wizard will be a level 75 fighter in melee type action. It is not necessary.
If your acquring different Levels/Tiers etc of Gear or Stats its the same thing ...
And you don't need that either honestly. Again, that is a combat focused outlook. Even this you could just be getting situational gear. The point of being levelless is to limit power creep vs. finding alternative means to push it.
Without.... Class/Skill/.Gear/Stat level progression or some combo of those you end up with Second Life .. Go give that a try ..
Also , how to kill a mob it has to have a lvl of HP/Skill etc .. there has to be a measurement of difficulty which = Levels
I guess a fundamental question is do you have a goal? If so, then you do things to progress to that goal. It's the same in any kind of game.
Take chess, for example. There is no role-playing, no levels, but there is a goal. You can measure your progression towards that goal. Actions can be rated in terms of how much they affect getting to the goal. You get a feeling of achievement at the end.
If there is no goal, then there is no achievement at the end. Humans don't do well in that kind of environment. Even in real life.
Let's say there is a single-player game where you start out with everything already accomplished. You have all items, buildings, farms, skills, etc, that you could ever get. Why would you play a game like that? Just to sit on a riverbank and fish?
I think goals can be had outside of combat. In modern MMORPG levels aren't even a real goal anymore. It's progression of gear and stats. Levels and leveling is trivial.
The problem is the only real goal is character progression and combat. Seems rather pedestrian for the scale of the genre.
I would like game play for explorers, crafters, community builders, combatants and achievers.
Sooo......... Progressing Level of Gear and Stats ....
Same thing ... you cannot have a competetive MMORPG without levels of some sort /end
Levels of some sort? I think when people talk about levels they are talking about vertical progression with each level being drastic power platform. A level 100 wizard will be a level 75 fighter in melee type action. It is not necessary.
If your acquring different Levels/Tiers etc of Gear or Stats its the same thing ...
And you don't need that either honestly. Again, that is a combat focused outlook. Even this you could just be getting situational gear. The point of being levelless is to limit power creep vs. finding alternative means to push it.
Without.... Class/Skill/.Gear/Stat level progression or some combo of those you end up with Second Life .. Go give that a try ..
Also , how to kill a mob it has to have a lvl of HP/Skill etc .. there has to be a measurement of difficulty which = Levels
You just don't understand the concept. I feel like I have gone over this with you in the past. WoW without levels wouldn't become Second Life.
Difficulty is done the same way in games with levels. You have normal, hard and elite or whatever you want to measure it.
Again, it's about power creep not trying aha gotcha there are power levels period. It's about having 1 base power platform vs. 100 levels worth.
I guess a fundamental question is do you have a goal? If so, then you do things to progress to that goal. It's the same in any kind of game.
Take chess, for example. There is no role-playing, no levels, but there is a goal. You can measure your progression towards that goal. Actions can be rated in terms of how much they affect getting to the goal. You get a feeling of achievement at the end.
If there is no goal, then there is no achievement at the end. Humans don't do well in that kind of environment. Even in real life.
Let's say there is a single-player game where you start out with everything already accomplished. You have all items, buildings, farms, skills, etc, that you could ever get. Why would you play a game like that? Just to sit on a riverbank and fish?
I think goals can be had outside of combat. In modern MMORPG levels aren't even a real goal anymore. It's progression of gear and stats. Levels and leveling is trivial.
The problem is the only real goal is character progression and combat. Seems rather pedestrian for the scale of the genre.
I would like game play for explorers, crafters, community builders, combatants and achievers.
Sooo......... Progressing Level of Gear and Stats ....
Same thing ... you cannot have a competetive MMORPG without levels of some sort /end
Levels of some sort? I think when people talk about levels they are talking about vertical progression with each level being drastic power platform. A level 100 wizard will be a level 75 fighter in melee type action. It is not necessary.
If your acquring different Levels/Tiers etc of Gear or Stats its the same thing ...
And you don't need that either honestly. Again, that is a combat focused outlook. Even this you could just be getting situational gear. The point of being levelless is to limit power creep vs. finding alternative means to push it.
Without.... Class/Skill/.Gear/Stat level progression or some combo of those you end up with Second Life .. Go give that a try ..
Also , how to kill a mob it has to have a lvl of HP/Skill etc .. there has to be a measurement of difficulty which = Levels
You just don't understand the concept. I feel like I have gone over this with you in the past. WoW without levels wouldn't become Second Life.
Difficulty is done the same way in games with levels. You have normal, hard and elite or whatever you want to measure it.
Again, it's about power creep not trying aha gotcha there are power levels period. It's about having 1 base power platform vs. 100 levels worth.
Comments
Ya see? Shoe on the other foot, some people are assuming that "no levels" = no progression.
Even Horizontal Progression doesn't necessarily mean no progression. Any system can have progression or not, and at any rate of progression (power increases).
The problems for MassivelyMO's start with large power increases, and end with all the problems that brings.
Once upon a time....
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
In a Character Level based MMORPG, you progress "A" to "B" to "C", etc to "Z", with Z being Endgame and the longest letter since that's where most of your play time will be. There is no going backwards from Z. Once you get to Z (using Vanilla WoW as an example here) which is Level 60, all progression onwards come from "Z" content. Not "Y" (Level 50 content), not "X"(Level 40 content), not "W(Level 30)", not "V(Level 20 content)",etc, just comes from "Z" (Level 60 content)
In the Character Leveless system as in the example I gave, there is not Level Content. "A" content allows progression, just as "G" content provides progression, just as "Y" content provides progression, just as "Z" content provides progressio, etc etc, which is why in this system you can return back to "A" if you want, because "A" content still provides progression. Its not something you out-level like you would in the "A" content (Level 1)in the Character Level based scenario mentioned above.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
But the one major change I make was that there is no Character Levels. What kind of game would you consider my World of Warcraft game?
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
If there is.. lets call it content node A, and I go there at level 10, consume it and move on. It's the same as if I go there in the level-less game, consume it and move on.
If you are saying that you have more options to RE-RUN content in your scenario... sure... but you are still RE-RUNNING it. It's not magically extra content.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
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- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
An interactive story or adventure game.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Legend of Zelda to me is a good example of progression where you get more hardy, get gear that does different things.
Quest and levels makes every MMORPG feel the same because ultimately that is all MMORPG do. Going to quest guy, go to way point, kill stuff and return describes almost every MMORPG in the last decade. If that is all there will be then you will have a mostly dying genre. It just sucks for most players. Just will be a few diehards playing Asian cash grabs and ancient MMORPG.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
My opinion is that the genre should have been evolving into AI/procedural based content where leveling in the DnD sense would kind of get in the way or be trivial. As most leveling in the genre is learning how to play and I think most of us are beyond that.
Trouble is, in most of these games the past 10 or so years, I can never find like minded people to group with, most are “rushing” to the top and when grouping it is quite common to see “LFG - Must know fights or will be kicked or some such.”
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
------------
2024: 47 years on the Net.
What about in WoW, if a player reach level 60 in Vanilla WoW did all progression end? If so, what were players doing all that time between 2004 and 2007?
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
The problem is the only real goal is character progression and combat. Seems rather pedestrian for the scale of the genre.
I would like game play for explorers, crafters, community builders, combatants and achievers.
It's the difference between fighting a champion UFC fighter and fighting Goku.
100 people could pound on Goku and his power level is so high he wouldn't be phased. He could level up and do the same to a fighter who was just beating his ass.
UFC fighter while going to kick people's asses would definitely be in a fight for his life vs. 10 average people. UFC fighter could also lose to a lesser fighter if he had an off night.
If your acquring different Levels/Tiers etc of Gear or Stats its the same thing ...
And it has zero to do with steep or gradual progression - it can be mild or extreme with or without levels.
Diablo 3 has leveling 1-70 but that progression with levels is peanuts compared to the huge and over the top progression you get once you reach 70 and start progressing with gear sets and legendary items to make you more than 1000 fold more powerful than a vanilla level 70 without that gear.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Difficulty is done the same way in games with levels. You have normal, hard and elite or whatever you want to measure it.
Again, it's about power creep not trying aha gotcha there are power levels period. It's about having 1 base power platform vs. 100 levels worth.
There is no functional concept