State of the Game - October 2020 Newsletter

Kumapon

https://www.pantheonmmo.com/news/producers-letter-october-2020/


I honestly don't know how to feel about this newsletter. On the one hand, it feels like they didn't understand how to build a scalable game so they had to tear it down and start over (I think this is the second time they have scrapped a large portion of the work and redone it). If they didn't know how to do it properly to begin with, it raises concerns moving forward. 


Next, some of the language being used is concerning. He mentions "we’re going to need more resources to get Pantheon done sooner than our modest team can realistically do by themselves in a reasonable timeframe" and "As a result of the PA testing and our own list of notes and to-dos, it was very clear that if the game was to ship we were going to need to get more parties interested, get more investment, and expand the team with more talent and skill sets beyond those of our current roster." This reads like "if we don't get actual investors and a publisher, it wont release".

But I do find it refreshing on how transparent the VR team is with the community. I can't think of many other dev teams working on something on this large of a scale that lets the community see behind the curtain as frequently as VR does.


What do you all think of this ?

Kyleran

Staggering and lurching about....

BruceYee

Kumapon said:

Next, some of the language being used is concerning. He mentions "we’re going to need more resources to get Pantheon done sooner than our modest team can realistically do by themselves in a reasonable timeframe" and "As a result of the PA testing and our own list of notes and to-dos, it was very clear that if the game was to ship we were going to need to get more parties interested, get more investment, and expand the team with more talent and skill sets beyond those of our current roster." This reads like "if we don't get actual investors and a publisher, it wont release"


What do you all think of this ?

I read that as "if we don't get more money we're screwed" nothing more nothing less.

Seriously why don't they just take what they have with the classes, skills, zones they have made and do instanced content. Yes it's not what they planned but a Kings and Heroes or whatever that grouping dungeon crawl game was called could be successful in this short attention spam era of gaming. Add some solid long-term progression systems in there and they could possibly have gold in their hands. It sure as heck would be easier to complete and they could just add classes, races, zones in the future without those unrealistic big dream costs/demands.

Nanfoodle

I'm still rooting for them. VR team has won my support. I hope this project gets the attention they think it will. The letter said they have people interested, my hope that's investors It does seem they are in a corner of sorts. 

Slapshot1188

I hope they launch as they are the only PvE MMORPG Im really looking forward to.  But that letter is very concerning.

Sovrath

I read it the same way. Well, "we'll see ... "

Nanfoodle

I don't think the message they gave us was what they intended to express. 

Amathe

This letter made me sad. I want them to succeed, but they seem to be hanging on by a thread.

theprophet85

Was banned on Reddit within 5 minutes for posting : This game will never release. Wasted $100 back in 2014. I Keep getting these newsletters and it’s clear this project is not moving along at all. There may be a reason brad is no longer with us. It wasn’t a heart attack.


anyways.. the newsletter is pretty straightforward . The end is near for this show. Without brad leading the way, there’s no more funds. 

Greatness

I read the newsletter as more positive than what the comments above in terms of hopefully producing faster however it still just worries me 1) that initially the company was not as robust as I thought it was in terms of a development team 2) it has been 6 years in development and still has a long way to go and promises of "once this happens, development should occur faster". As always hoping it is a success but the race is between finishing versus funding. 

cheyane

I think for what they want to do they haven't the funds nor the possibility to raise more. It isn't happening if it could not even with Brad in the forefront. They may have to give up and the current economy and crisis isn't making it any better. Such a pity.

Wizardry

It sounds like they jumped in too quick without thinking it through.Also sounds like they didn't have the proper game engine and tools to allow efficient work to be done.

Level 50?I believe FFXi started out as max level 30 in japan before it arrived in NA with a level cap of 50.You MUST aim for a small HQ game to start then just slowly build on the framework over time as money comes in and new employees are hired.

"Modern"I think that might have been a mistake,i personally love realistic modern graphics but I don't need shiny glossy and geesh I tend to have always turned shadows off as well.

5 classes,maybe 4 races to start,good enough for me.

I feel like this is very common in most studios,they are just not well prepared going in and try to just sort of "wing it" as they go.So I think this game is in trouble and incredible they made it this far knowing most were working for free or barely got paid small numbers.

If I was in their shoes i wouldn't be able to sleep knowing it might all crumble any day.I guess in the back of their minds the game code could just sit idle for a year or three in hopes maybe a large investment can bring it back.

So my gut tells me this might see the same demise as EQ Next and if it does release it will be in a shambles and just get them too much negative feedback.

FoolOfATook39

Didn’t sound as bad as some commenters here made it out. Sounds pretty optimistic and like things are moving forward nicely. I’m wishing the team the best and looking forward to the game. 

TwoTubes

Actions speak louder than words. 

At this point they have to give us dates that they intend to reach specific goals and achieve those goals in the given timeframe  or it is just more lies.

Why didnt they tell us all this in 2018 if this was going on?  They are completely unreliable and unprofessional.  

goldwheat

TwoTubes said: ...

Why didnt they tell us all this in 2018 if this was going on?  They are completely unreliable and unprofessional.  

Because people would have stopped throwing money down the bottomless pit.
But for realz?  Hardcoding, from 2014-2020?  What they hell were they thinking? 
Did the concept of a content database (the core of probably every MMO since 2001) not cross their mind in those six years?  Not once?

In my job, if I even thought about developing a transaction-based system, in the past 5 years?  It had a database.  *SQL, NoSQL, whatever.  Step one, decide what database is going to hold all the data.  That they didn't is just.. baffling.

Shaigh

its an honest letter, not the standard bullshit you generally get from CR, CU, CF. It also sounds awful which is why most teams stick to the bullshit. 

Kyleran

Shaigh said:

its an honest letter, not the standard bullshit you generally get from CR, CU, CF. It also sounds awful which is why most teams stick to the bullshit. 

It sounds like a project effort which is about to go "tits up" and there's nothing left to lose in finally being totally honest at this point.

They are basically "for sale" at this point and will likely fold up shop if no takers are found around year's end.

Mendel

So, 6 years to produce a prototype hacked together with string and bailing wire?  Let's not go overboard praising VR for being open and honest with us, they've not been open and honest about how badly things were going for those 6 years.

They want/need more money, talent, and bodies.  That's been clear for some time.  All this prior talk of "when the game launches" seem to have been mere hope, rather than fact.  It speaks of a company not driven by deadlines, schedules, and project plans, but rather one that simply believes it can.

What it appears that the ultimate purpose of all the crowdfunding was to do was build a mock-up of a game that will now be used to lure 'real investors'.  All this talk of early 'angel investors', and 'we have enough to build the game' were mere fabrications.  They didn't have the money necessary to build a complete game, rather they may have had money to build a model of the game they want to build.

If they now claim that somehow they spent 6 years without being paid and using the knowledge they gained to be now ready to build that game, then I spent 8 years not being paid for having congestive heart failures, I should be fully qualified.  Who do I see to for the check?

It's difficult to even say that VR had enough money to build a model of their game because many, if not most, of the developers went without money for 6 years.  I strongly suspect that someone at the top of VR was quite capable of convincing people to give time, talents, and assets to the effort.  It sounds more like a cult than a business plan.

That has been mentioned before.

Nanfoodle

Mendel said:

So, 6 years to produce a prototype hacked together with string and bailing wire?  Let's not go overboard praising VR for being open and honest with us, they've not been open and honest about how badly things were going for those 6 years.

They want/need more money, talent, and bodies.  That's been clear for some time.  All this prior talk of "when the game launches" seem to have been mere hope, rather than fact.  It speaks of a company not driven by deadlines, schedules, and project plans, but rather one that simply believes it can.

What it appears that the ultimate purpose of all the crowdfunding was to do was build a mock-up of a game that will now be used to lure 'real investors'.  All this talk of early 'angel investors', and 'we have enough to build the game' were mere fabrications.  They didn't have the money necessary to build a complete game, rather they may have had money to build a model of the game they want to build.

If they now claim that somehow they spent 6 years without being paid and using the knowledge they gained to be now ready to build that game, then I spent 8 years not being paid for having congestive heart failures, I should be fully qualified.  Who do I see to for the check?

It's difficult to even say that VR had enough money to build a model of their game because many, if not most, of the developers went without money for 6 years.  I strongly suspect that someone at the top of VR was quite capable of convincing people to give time, talents, and assets to the effort.  It sounds more like a cult than a business plan.

That has been mentioned before.

The fans on the Patheon site dont seem to be taking it this way. Im not sure if I missed information where they have expressed this info as clearly as they have in thie Oct Update. I remember their slow and steady development they put out, saying that this would allow them to finish the game. I wonder if that was a hope or if VR didnt know how desperate things are? I am still not convinced that this Oct Update gave the message they were trying to put forward.  

Mendel

Nanfoodle said:

Mendel said:

So, 6 years to produce a prototype hacked together with string and bailing wire?  Let's not go overboard praising VR for being open and honest with us, they've not been open and honest about how badly things were going for those 6 years.

They want/need more money, talent, and bodies.  That's been clear for some time.  All this prior talk of "when the game launches" seem to have been mere hope, rather than fact.  It speaks of a company not driven by deadlines, schedules, and project plans, but rather one that simply believes it can.

What it appears that the ultimate purpose of all the crowdfunding was to do was build a mock-up of a game that will now be used to lure 'real investors'.  All this talk of early 'angel investors', and 'we have enough to build the game' were mere fabrications.  They didn't have the money necessary to build a complete game, rather they may have had money to build a model of the game they want to build.

If they now claim that somehow they spent 6 years without being paid and using the knowledge they gained to be now ready to build that game, then I spent 8 years not being paid for having congestive heart failures, I should be fully qualified.  Who do I see to for the check?

It's difficult to even say that VR had enough money to build a model of their game because many, if not most, of the developers went without money for 6 years.  I strongly suspect that someone at the top of VR was quite capable of convincing people to give time, talents, and assets to the effort.  It sounds more like a cult than a business plan.

That has been mentioned before.

The fans on the Patheon site dont seem to be taking it this way. Im not sure if I missed information where they have expressed this info as clearly as they have in thie Oct Update. I remember their slow and steady development they put out, saying that this would allow them to finish the game. I wonder if that was a hope or if VR didnt know how desperate things are? I am still not convinced that this Oct Update gave the message they were trying to put forward.  

VR has lacked a certain consistency in their message, both on their site and especially in their video newsletters.

Scot

We simply cannot have another CF MMO fold, it would be the tombstone to the whole idea of making quality indie MMORPG's. The fact some have launched like AO and been successful enough would not save CF MMO's if we had two failures.

xpsync

The misunderstanding with the community is simple.

"We thought you knew what you are doing." obv not

So glad i don't throw money at these things.

Slapshot1188

Scot said:

We simply cannot have another CF MMO fold, it would be the tombstone to the whole idea of making quality indie MMORPG's. The fact some have launched like AO and been successful enough would not save CF MMO's if we had two failures.

I beg to differ.  People that lost thousands backing the CoE disaster literally took no more than a few weeks to latch onto a similar game that sells "Nobility" for hundreds and thousands.   There will ALWAYS be people that will crowdfund games based on promises and dreams. 

xpsync

Nanfoodle said:

I'm still rooting for them. VR team has won my support. I hope this project gets the attention they think it will. The letter said they have people interested, my hope that's investors It does seem they are in a corner of sorts. 

Yeah deep down every mmorpg player would love to find these games launching and playable.

It's just they had all the money they could have ever needed and then some, but they squandered it or you know little nest eggs for every one, no accountability remember, it's just free cash, and they squandered thier time, and now, people are giving up, so unfortunately nothing new coming in for them to squander. This pretty much goes for panth, unchained, SC...

Nanfoodle

Torval said:

Scot said:

We simply cannot have another CF MMO fold, it would be the tombstone to the whole idea of making quality indie MMORPG's. The fact some have launched like AO and been successful enough would not save CF MMO's if we had two failures.

I'd argue that we need poorly managed crowd-funded or early access games to fold sooner or be forced to launch within a certain time period so consumers aren't strung along for a decade with empty promises. If consumers wise up then maybe studios will take their responsibilities more seriously.

Thing is, Indy Studios often are not fully functioning companies with people that knows how to run a company. Brad was a great developer but really had some flaws when it came to admin side of things. Backers, backing games on the hopes the concept flies, Im not sure anyone could regulate that. VR has learned as they have gone along. Seems they now have things in stride, will the fans keep with them at that point? Who knows.

Theocritus

Kyleran said:

Staggering and lurching about....

Hahaha good one!