Scope creep is scope creep, regardless of who (and how many) like it.
Scope creep means that over the course of development, various features and content are added and expanded so that they change the project's scope. Not "an original feature of the game.
Their initial kickstarter was in february 2014.
The whole weather thing was discussed a month before it.
This is the game that backers backed. It's not superfluous to those who backed the game and who were excited about those features. I'm not sure where you are getting scope creep.
I'm pretty sure most people invested, so they could play a game that would actually RELEASE. Who cares about stupid features if they cant even get the game out the door. Just poor mismanagement.
You write a list of 100 ideas or things you need to do starting 1 as the most critical until you get to 100. These guys are starting from the bottom of the list of least important things and working their way up.
Oh this is fantastic we got an almost completed weather system, but unfortunately we wont be able to finish the actual game because we ran out of funding for the entire game trying to create it. But HEY its really cool if it was done.
That's just brilliant!
Well, you have no idea how the work was divided up and what was done or not done so that's just speculation.
Granted it's a small team but I suspect the weather system was completely separate from combat and classes with different people working on them.
Most likely scenario is that them losing their first team and having to rebuild and then probably limping along with various additions and subtractions and Brad dying contributed more to "getting 'er done."
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I believe in this game. You can say what you will- but they are transparent all the way through. They share their ups and downs. I am confident that they will reach their goal- however the road ahead seems rocky to say at least.
Yeah i mean who doesn't want this to succeed.
I honestly hope this does come to fruition, and i'm done with the negative posts towards panth, unchained, sc, not CoE though, i gotta have something to scream get of my lawn at
I'm not pledging, i've no stake in this so, doesn't give me any say. The reality for the impassioned posts is that i'm disappointed with these developers, there should have been a game out already, or fully playable beta at a min.
Contradictory, sure. I'd love nothing more than these games come to light, but i don't pledge. I mean when you review this at the beginning they all instantly struck money geysers, they certainly don't need my money anyway. Time marches on, and now we might be looking at nothing, and yeah tbh i now feel that i'm glad i didn't just give them money, to what i feel was horribly squandered, in all cases.
My faith is my shield! - Turalyon 2022
Your legend ends here and now! - (Battles Won Long Ago)
Well, you have no idea how the work was divided up and what was done or not done so that's just speculation.
Granted it's a small team but I suspect the weather system was completely separate from combat and classes with different people working on them.
Most likely scenario is that them losing their first team and having to rebuild and then probably limping along with various additions and subtractions and Brad dying contributed more to "getting 'er done."
Well this makes no sense? You think these programmers are one trick ponies? All they know how to code is acclimation, perception, climbing and weather systems? Where are the schools for those lol. Pretty sure these devs can program more than that. Which means they split the team up doing stupid priorities instead of focusing on their core game. Time, money, dev resources, management resources all put into systems very few even care about.
Fine and dandy to add subsystems as long as you can complete the core game.
In addition I seen the lead dev spending many hours defending and commenting on these subsystems so they obviously occupied alot of their time.
Well, you have no idea how the work was divided up and what was done or not done so that's just speculation.
Granted it's a small team but I suspect the weather system was completely separate from combat and classes with different people working on them.
Most likely scenario is that them losing their first team and having to rebuild and then probably limping along with various additions and subtractions and Brad dying contributed more to "getting 'er done."
Well this makes no sense? You think these programmers are one trick ponies? All they know how to code is acclimation, perception, climbing and weather systems? Where are the schools for those lol. Pretty sure these devs can program more than that. Which means they split the team up doing stupid priorities instead of focusing on their core game. Time, money, dev resources, management resources all put into systems very few even care about.
Fine and dandy to add subsystems as long as you can complete the core game.
In addition I seen the lead dev spending many hours defending and commenting on these subsystems so they obviously occupied alot of their time.
Let's talk stretch goals. The downfall of SC really.
My faith is my shield! - Turalyon 2022
Your legend ends here and now! - (Battles Won Long Ago)
We simply cannot have another CF MMO fold, it would be the tombstone to the whole idea of making quality indie MMORPG's. The fact some have launched like AO and been successful enough would not save CF MMO's if we had two failures.
I beg to differ. People that lost thousands backing the CoE disaster literally took no more than a few weeks to latch onto a similar game that sells "Nobility" for hundreds and thousands. There will ALWAYS be people that will crowdfund games based on promises and dreams.
Where is your proof of that? I can see what you are saying might have happened but lets hope that it has not.
We simply cannot have another CF MMO fold, it would be the tombstone to the whole idea of making quality indie MMORPG's. The fact some have launched like AO and been successful enough would not save CF MMO's if we had two failures.
I'd argue that weneed poorly managed crowd-funded or early access games to fold sooner or be forced to launch within a certain time period so consumers aren't strung along for a decade with empty promises. If consumers wise up then maybe studios will take their responsibilities more seriously.
You may be right here, its appalling that we can come to that conclusion though.
Well, you have no idea how the work was divided up and what was done or not done so that's just speculation.
Granted it's a small team but I suspect the weather system was completely separate from combat and classes with different people working on them.
Most likely scenario is that them losing their first team and having to rebuild and then probably limping along with various additions and subtractions and Brad dying contributed more to "getting 'er done."
Well this makes no sense? You think these programmers are one trick ponies? All they know how to code is acclimation, perception, climbing and weather systems? Where are the schools for those lol. Pretty sure these devs can program more than that. Which means they split the team up doing stupid priorities instead of focusing on their core game. Time, money, dev resources, management resources all put into systems very few even care about.
Fine and dandy to add subsystems as long as you can complete the core game.
In addition I seen the lead dev spending many hours defending and commenting on these subsystems so they obviously occupied alot of their time.
His point is, not every person working on the game are not skilled in the same area. You gonna pull they guy working on the weather system to work on combat systems? That would be a fail. Different people, working on different parts of the game because they have different skill sets.
Well, you have no idea how the work was divided up and what was done or not done so that's just speculation.
Granted it's a small team but I suspect the weather system was completely separate from combat and classes with different people working on them.
Most likely scenario is that them losing their first team and having to rebuild and then probably limping along with various additions and subtractions and Brad dying contributed more to "getting 'er done."
Well this makes no sense? You think these programmers are one trick ponies? All they know how to code is acclimation, perception, climbing and weather systems? Where are the schools for those lol. Pretty sure these devs can program more than that. Which means they split the team up doing stupid priorities instead of focusing on their core game. Time, money, dev resources, management resources all put into systems very few even care about.
Fine and dandy to add subsystems as long as you can complete the core game.
In addition I seen the lead dev spending many hours defending and commenting on these subsystems so they obviously occupied alot of their time.
No I do not think they are one trick ponies. I do think that work is divided up. Granted, as I said, this is a small team so some people are wearing multiple hats. But people are going to be "experts" in particular areas and will most likely be working on those areas.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
We simply cannot have another CF MMO fold, it would be the tombstone to the whole idea of making quality indie MMORPG's. The fact some have launched like AO and been successful enough would not save CF MMO's if we had two failures.
I beg to differ. People that lost thousands backing the CoE disaster literally took no more than a few weeks to latch onto a similar game that sells "Nobility" for hundreds and thousands. There will ALWAYS be people that will crowdfund games based on promises and dreams.
Where is your proof of that? I can see what you are saying might have happened but lets hope that it has not.
You probably do not have access to the Kingdom ones but you can always join the Lawsuit Discord to see gems like these:
Roo04/25/2020
@zombiekid Rulers of the Sea - The Devs are all in their 50s and doing this without pay. Their novel concept for funding it is through offering gamers a chance to own stock in the company. They are honest that it is risky because a lot of indy projects don't make it, but if they do succeed, you get dividends off the profits through your shares.
420$ - LonelyCookie EU04/18/2020
"According to the current projections Rulers of the Sea should be break even from a cost-benefit perspective at around 20,000 paid subscribers. If we have 500,000 paid subscribers we could potentially make a yearly profit of 75 million dollar (after tax). How much dividend that would get you depends on how many certificates you have."
Stelaphina04/18/2020
also in reference to Rulers of the Sea I have an unofficial discord set up. If anyone would like an invite just send me a PM and I will give you one, can't post it here.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
We simply cannot have another CF MMO fold, it would be the tombstone to the whole idea of making quality indie MMORPG's. The fact some have launched like AO and been successful enough would not save CF MMO's if we had two failures.
I beg to differ. People that lost thousands backing the CoE disaster literally took no more than a few weeks to latch onto a similar game that sells "Nobility" for hundreds and thousands. There will ALWAYS be people that will crowdfund games based on promises and dreams.
Where is your proof of that? I can see what you are saying might have happened but lets hope that it has not.
Oh yes, forgot to mention "Gamer Shares", where you the player can own a piece of the action.
Unfortunately, the first round has already sold out, so you'll have to wait for a later round to be taken advantage of....err, no I meant take advantage of...err..just go with the first.
Here's a query showing a former COE sucker...err fan expressing interest.
"hello,
im part of a multi gaming community who got stranded after COE became a scam. while i myself dont mind making the plunge early a big part of the group would like to know until when the nobility title and the gamers shares will be available to be bought”
In the reply it is mentioned the top package, Grand Duke ($1000) will be the first to go because it is the best selling one.
”The two top tier nobility packs will be around for a while yet, and once we decide to pull them, we'll announce that a few weeks prior. The Grand Duke pack will be the first to go, because that's the one that sells most. We haven't decided yet on what the limit should be, for the sake of game balance and the value of the other titles they should be sufficiently rare. Perhaps a ratio of around one per nation, so between 150-200.”
Apparently folks are rushing to throw themselves off the cliff once again, see you in ten years.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
We simply cannot have another CF MMO fold, it would be the tombstone to the whole idea of making quality indie MMORPG's. The fact some have launched like AO and been successful enough would not save CF MMO's if we had two failures.
I beg to differ. People that lost thousands backing the CoE disaster literally took no more than a few weeks to latch onto a similar game that sells "Nobility" for hundreds and thousands. There will ALWAYS be people that will crowdfund games based on promises and dreams.
Where is your proof of that? I can see what you are saying might have happened but lets hope that it has not.
But this does not prove it is the same people, we are doomed if that's the case, surely those who got burnt are wising up? Frankly I just don't want to believe players could be so credulous.
As for new players going for bought privilege, maybe that is never going to go away.
Scope creep is scope creep, regardless of who (and how many) like it.
Scope creep means that over the course of development, various features and content are added and expanded so that they change the project's scope. Not "an original feature of the game.
Their initial kickstarter was in february 2014.
The whole weather thing was discussed a month before it.
This is the game that backers backed. It's not superfluous to those who backed the game and who were excited about those features. I'm not sure where you are getting scope creep.
Scope creep *can* occur before a project, even the conceptual stage. In this case, Pantheon set project boundaries that simply precluded finishing the project on a timely schedule. It doesn't matter if people backed it or even liked it, certain features like weather and perception have delayed the project delivery.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Well, you have no idea how the work was divided up and what was done or not done so that's just speculation.
Granted it's a small team but I suspect the weather system was completely separate from combat and classes with different people working on them.
Most likely scenario is that them losing their first team and having to rebuild and then probably limping along with various additions and subtractions and Brad dying contributed more to "getting 'er done."
Well this makes no sense? You think these programmers are one trick ponies? All they know how to code is acclimation, perception, climbing and weather systems? Where are the schools for those lol. Pretty sure these devs can program more than that. Which means they split the team up doing stupid priorities instead of focusing on their core game. Time, money, dev resources, management resources all put into systems very few even care about.
Fine and dandy to add subsystems as long as you can complete the core game.
In addition I seen the lead dev spending many hours defending and commenting on these subsystems so they obviously occupied alot of their time.
His point is, not every person working on the game are not skilled in the same area. You gonna pull they guy working on the weather system to work on combat systems? That would be a fail. Different people, working on different parts of the game because they have different skill sets.
LOL if you were talking network integration or security maybe you would have a point, but you are talking about programming weather, perception and climbing? That would be so niche, its ridiculous to even think they would bring someone onboard that only knows how to do that. If they did hire someone with that limited amount of expertise then I would argue that it would be a big bust anyway, because I cant even imagine a programmer with that limited set of skills.
Even if lets say they brought in someone part-time that will only program that limited amount of stuff, then what's your point anyway. Why are they investing resources and management time to work on something that is not even part of the core game at the expense of the game itself?
This all goes back to one fact - most games fail in development - this is the actual "normal"
Whenever there is a new game, new project, new kickstarter - the overwhelming statistical outcome is - failure to get completed.
Why would Pantheon be different?
So when any game studio announces that they have problems in development and problems completing the game - everyone should take this as "well duh.. of course" - as the chance of games getting completed and launched is very small.
I think the expectations of masses are just completely skewed - the base expectation should be "aw look - new game in the works - it's probably never going to make it"
instead everyone is like
"new game in the works - I can't wait to play it" - umm, yeah about that....
This is not about being a pessimist - it's about adjusting your expectations to match reality.
I think you are giving these MMO's a pass trying to say its normal to fail. But its not normal for projects with large investments like these to fail before they even release a product. This is extremely rare yet its been happening the last few years with these Crowdfunded games. Its almost like a scam.
Yeah sure, products sometimes dont live up to the dreams and then later fail or slowly fail. But to fail before the consumer even gets to try the product? Geez this makes crowd funded games look terrible, and has really put a bad taste on independent gaming startups overall.
This all goes back to one fact - most games fail in development - this is the actual "normal"
Whenever there is a new game, new project, new kickstarter - the overwhelming statistical outcome is - failure to get completed.
Why would Pantheon be different?
So when any game studio announces that they have problems in development and problems completing the game - everyone should take this as "well duh.. of course" - as the chance of games getting completed and launched is very small.
I think the expectations of masses are just completely skewed - the base expectation should be "aw look - new game in the works - it's probably never going to make it"
instead everyone is like
"new game in the works - I can't wait to play it" - umm, yeah about that....
This is not about being a pessimist - it's about adjusting your expectations to match reality.
I think you are giving these MMO's a pass trying to say its normal to fail. But its not normal for projects with large investments like these to fail before they even release a product. This is extremely rare yet its been happening the last few years with these Crowdfunded games. Its almost like a scam.
Yeah sure, products sometimes dont live up to the dreams and then later fail or slowly fail. But to fail before the consumer even gets to try the product? Geez this makes crowd funded games look terrible, and has really put a bad taste on independent gaming startups overall.
A lot of crowdfunded games fail. It is a combination of lack of essential talent and money. If indeed making these types of games were that easy we would not have so many scams and failed projects.
Scope creep is scope creep, regardless of who (and how many) like it.
Scope creep means that over the course of development, various features and content are added and expanded so that they change the project's scope. Not "an original feature of the game.
Their initial kickstarter was in february 2014.
The whole weather thing was discussed a month before it.
This is the game that backers backed. It's not superfluous to those who backed the game and who were excited about those features. I'm not sure where you are getting scope creep.
Scope creep *can* occur before a project, even the conceptual stage. In this case, Pantheon set project boundaries that simply precluded finishing the project on a timely schedule. It doesn't matter if people backed it or even liked it, certain features like weather and perception have delayed the project delivery.
Is that really scope creep or just starting out with a project and not planning accordingly? I mean, if that's the case then anything could be considered "scope creep." Heck, combat could be considered scope creep. Where is the line drawn?
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Makes one appreciate certain people whose names shall remain unnamed because they are reviled by many were in the position where they actually oversaw and managed the very thing the developing team in Pantheon needed. Those individuals while hated do trim, focus and manage games so that they are released in the end.
You can ask how can a company spend money and have so little to show for it? Well squandering money isn't a unique talent I'm afraid and not all of it is malfeasance or embezzlement. Genuine mismanagement can squander funds earnestly.
So I'm probably the only one that's not seeing the "doom and gloom" with this newsletter. I see the ability in VR to adapt and adjust accordingly.
And I view this as a positive:
Publishers and investors need to see what Pantheon is, how it plays,
what it’s all about. Several parties are interested in the concept, and
now we need to show them that it’s a reality.
So I'm probably the only one that's not seeing the "doom and gloom" with this newsletter. I see the ability in VR to adapt and adjust accordingly.
And I view this as a positive:
Publishers and investors need to see what Pantheon is, how it plays,
what it’s all about. Several parties are interested in the concept, and
now we need to show them that it’s a reality.
At first, when I read it I sort of felt it was a bit gloom (not doom) but I can see it for what it is. Being transparent and telling people how it is going forward.
I still have doubts of this project launching (even though I gave them some money) but I'm hopeful.
As in any crowdfunded endeavor I support, it's always a "we'll see" proposition.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Comments
Granted it's a small team but I suspect the weather system was completely separate from combat and classes with different people working on them.
Most likely scenario is that them losing their first team and having to rebuild and then probably limping along with various additions and subtractions and Brad dying contributed more to "getting 'er done."
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Well this makes no sense? You think these programmers are one trick ponies? All they know how to code is acclimation, perception, climbing and weather systems? Where are the schools for those lol. Pretty sure these devs can program more than that. Which means they split the team up doing stupid priorities instead of focusing on their core game. Time, money, dev resources, management resources all put into systems very few even care about.
Fine and dandy to add subsystems as long as you can complete the core game.
In addition I seen the lead dev spending many hours defending and commenting on these subsystems so they obviously occupied alot of their time.
Let's talk stretch goals. The downfall of SC really.
You may be right here, its appalling that we can come to that conclusion though.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
It's discussed on numerous Discords from old CoE Kingdoms, the CoE Lawsuit Discord etc...
You probably do not have access to the Kingdom ones but you can always join the Lawsuit Discord to see gems like these:
420$ - LonelyCookie EU04/18/2020
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
https://www.rulersofthesea.com/home/support-us/nobility-packs/
They just announced reaching the 50K "supporters" mark, meaning those who signed up on their web site.
Oh yeah, I am one, no way can I resist this opportunity to trol....err "contribute" to the conversation, years of entertainment in the making.
https://www.rulersofthesea.com/news/50-000-community-members/
Oh yes, forgot to mention "Gamer Shares", where you the player can own a piece of the action.
Unfortunately, the first round has already sold out, so you'll have to wait for a later round to be taken advantage of....err, no I meant take advantage of...err..just go with the first.
Here's a query showing a former COE sucker...err fan expressing interest.
"hello,
im part of a multi gaming community who got stranded after COE became a scam. while i myself dont mind making the plunge early a big part of the group would like to know until when the nobility title and the gamers shares will be available to be bought”
In the reply it is mentioned the top package, Grand Duke ($1000) will be the first to go because it is the best selling one.
”The two top tier nobility packs will be around for a while yet, and once we decide to pull them, we'll announce that a few weeks prior. The Grand Duke pack will be the first to go, because that's the one that sells most. We haven't decided yet on what the limit should be, for the sake of game balance and the value of the other titles they should be sufficiently rare. Perhaps a ratio of around one per nation, so between 150-200.”
Apparently folks are rushing to throw themselves off the cliff once again, see you in ten years.
https://www.rulersofthesea.com/discussions/campaign/how-long-will-current-funding-last/
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
As for new players going for bought privilege, maybe that is never going to go away.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Even if lets say they brought in someone part-time that will only program that limited amount of stuff, then what's your point anyway. Why are they investing resources and management time to work on something that is not even part of the core game at the expense of the game itself?
I think you are giving these MMO's a pass trying to say its normal to fail. But its not normal for projects with large investments like these to fail before they even release a product. This is extremely rare yet its been happening the last few years with these Crowdfunded games. Its almost like a scam.
Yeah sure, products sometimes dont live up to the dreams and then later fail or slowly fail. But to fail before the consumer even gets to try the product? Geez this makes crowd funded games look terrible, and has really put a bad taste on independent gaming startups overall.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
You can ask how can a company spend money and have so little to show for it? Well squandering money isn't a unique talent I'm afraid and not all of it is malfeasance or embezzlement. Genuine mismanagement can squander funds earnestly.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
I still have doubts of this project launching (even though I gave them some money) but I'm hopeful.
As in any crowdfunded endeavor I support, it's always a "we'll see" proposition.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Especially crowdfunded ones.