I knew he was gone when he didnt do a christmas sale. Damn shame he was able to steal from some of our community members with so little of a game. I smelled skum bag the first day he typed on these forums.
I have never believed this project had a chance to release. I just believe there is a difference between trying to make a game while keeping your day jobs and paying yourself 200k/yr with Crowdfunded money.
Note that not once have I criticized your opinion. I am merely stating my own and saying that if you showed me that they lied I would agree with you.
It's conspicuous that you keep dodging Bruce's replies to your rather tone-deaf "miniscule hundreds of thousands" remark, that it's using free/cheap Unity assets, and hasn't changed in several years.
Those aren't insignificant points he raises, and you've yet to address them.
Saying "well they're not doing what CoE did..." is irrelevant. It's a deflection, not a defense. This thread isn't about CoE, and invoking it does nothing to address the questions raised about SoL.
If they kept their day jobs and didn't need to pay themselves, what was the backers' "miniscule hundreds of thousands" spent on? Are they just sitting on it? Why the $10,000 backer tier?
Those are all very relevant questions. If I was a backer (almost was), I'd certainly be asking those questions myself by now.
I'm backing CU and I've been asking myself similar questions with the way that project is going. It's a reasonable thing to do when you're backing a project. It's a reasonable thing to do when there's an option to do so.
So, it's not unreasonable for Bruce to raise those questions to you, given how you arevery much on the defensive for the project and its creators' character.
You entered this discussion and made the remarks you made. It's perfectly fair for others to challenge you on them and expect a response.
I have never believed this project had a chance to release. I just believe there is a difference between trying to make a game while keeping your day jobs and paying yourself 200k/yr with Crowdfunded money.
Note that not once have I criticized your opinion. I am merely stating my own and saying that if you showed me that they lied I would agree with you.
It's conspicuous that you keep dodging Bruce's replies to your rather tone-deaf "miniscule hundreds of thousands" remark, that it's using free/cheap Unity assets, and hasn't changed in several years.
Those aren't insignificant points he raises, and you've yet to address them.
Saying "well they're not doing what CoE did..." is irrelevant. It's a deflection, not a defense. This thread isn't about CoE, and invoking it does nothing to address the questions raised about SoL.
If they kept their day jobs and didn't need to pay themselves, what was the backers' "miniscule hundreds of thousands" spent on? Are they just sitting on it? Why the $10,000 backer tier?
Those are all very relevant questions. If I was a backer (almost was), I'd certainly be asking those questions myself by now.
I'm backing CU and I've been asking myself similar questions with the way that project is going. It's a reasonable thing to do when you're backing a project. It's a reasonable thing to do when there's an option to do so.
So, it's not unreasonable for Bruce to raise those questions to you, given how you arevery much on the defensive for the project and its creators' character.
You entered this discussion and made the remarks you made. It's perfectly fair for others to challenge you on them and expect a response.
When someone makes an allegation of wrongdoing... the burden is on them to provide proof. How do you expect me, who is not a backer or part of the company to refute an allegation that was made with no evidence?
"As we head into our sixth year (March, 2020), not a single one of us has seen even a penny of salary for our time. Investor money and pre-order sales go straight to our contractors and business expenses. We’re still here working for free, just like we have been since day one. As business owners, we believe that our paychecks are only justified once we have launched a finished product."
If you, or Bruce or Kano believe that is a lie... that's great for you. You can have an opinion just like anyone else. If any of you has ACTUAL proof then share it and everyone will get behind you if it's legit. You are making allegations of outright FRAUD with legal repercussions for the team if true. And then seemingly expecting random forum members to refute the claim... If what is alleged is TRUE, then get a police agency involved.
And, to think that I am "on the defensive for the project and it's creators' character" is just an asinine statement. Asking for evidence of a fraud allegation is common sense.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
When someone makes an allegation of wrongdoing... the burden is on them to provide proof. How do you expect me, who is not a backer or part of the company to refute an allegation that was made with no evidence?
"As we head into our sixth year (March, 2020), not a single one of us has seen even a penny of salary for our time. Investor money and pre-order sales go straight to our contractors and business expenses. We’re still here working for free, just like we have been since day one. As business owners, we believe that our paychecks are only justified once we have launched a finished product."
If you, or Bruce or Kano believe that is a lie... that's great for you. You can have an opinion just like anyone else. If any of you has ACTUAL proof then share it and everyone will get behind you if it's legit. You are making allegations of outright FRAUD with legal repercussions for the team if true. And then seemingly expecting random forum members to refute the claim... If what is alleged is TRUE, then get a police agency involved.
And, to think that I am "on the defensive for the project and it's creators' character" is just an asinine statement. Asking for evidence of a fraud allegation is common sense.
I was gonna let you back away + even gave you an agree without having to explain anything but everything you wrote here is bs and you know it. You are the Harbinger, you called out CoE for years and you know that inside knowledge being fed to the public( by them) is the only way other than a lawsuit is the only way to "prove" anything. The information being fed to the public is controlled by them so if they have dirty dealings why expose themselves? It's like asking a burglar to turn himself in and return the goods they stole... The best we can do is come to our own conclusions based on the information provided. Here's what both you and I know and you even said in your own words here...
"I have never believed this project had a chance to release."
Okay, so if you believe the project never had a chance to release based on all the information you knew about the game with your extensive knowledge of game development then how have they been "honest about everything"? Tim ALWAYS said the game was going to release. Pick your side cause either he knew there was no chance the game would ever release or he was oblivious about game development and collected money from people anyway. Is knowing you can't achieve something but collecting money anyway dishonest? Either way money was collected, they either intentionally or not based collecting that money on false promises, the project turned out to be just a game demo and money hasn't been returned. Any 'classic' transaction requires goods in exchange for currency. In the weird world realm of crowdfunding the "loophole" @Remsleep was talking about in another thread is that crowdfund money exchanged is not considered a 'classic transaction' as we know it. You know that information but for some strange reason seem to have forgot when it comes to this game. The money being given is treated like a donation therefore not requiring anything in return if that is what is laid out in the terms before the exchange. It is essentially 'free money' the same as if you'd give money to a homeless person when they tell you they'll definitely use the money to "buy food". Here is a visual reference for what I'm describing...
I don't know why you shut the door on SoL but left it wide open for CoE for many years but the only way for anything to be exposed(good & bad) about these games is if enough people are willing to ask questions because there is no type of oversight for these projects.. You and other orange names here for some unknown reason are refusing to even ask questions beyond the most basic ones... Tim isn't the victim in this scenario. The company was his, everything that happened at that company was his responsibility. To try and shift the blame to HIS employees or going against people on this site just trying to find out basic information like "where did the money go?" is doing a disservice to not only crowdfunding in general but also to many orange names like yourself providing the road block. If the game is not a scam then I'll be the first to admit I was wrong but in no way feel like asking questions that any honest person could answer is an outrageous request.
When someone makes an allegation of wrongdoing... the burden is on them to provide proof. How do you expect me, who is not a backer or part of the company to refute an allegation that was made with no evidence?
You don't have evidence of your remarks, either, beyond another person's say-so. But that doesn't stop you from trying anyway, does it?
"As we head into our sixth year (March, 2020), not a single one of us has seen even a penny of salary for our time. Investor money and pre-order sales go straight to our contractors and business expenses. We’re still here working for free, just like we have been since day one. As business owners, we believe that our paychecks are only justified once we have launched a finished product."
If you, or Bruce or Kano believe that is a lie... that's great for you. You can have an opinion just like anyone else. If any of you has ACTUAL proof then share it and everyone will get behind you if it's legit. You are making allegations of outright FRAUD with legal repercussions for the team if true. And then seemingly expecting random forum members to refute the claim... If what is alleged is TRUE, then get a police agency involved.
And, to think that I am "on the defensive for the project and it's creators' character" is just an asinine statement. Asking for evidence of a fraud allegation is common sense.
I'm not asserting anything. I'm asking questions.
Bruce, from what I've seen, is basically doing the same, though they do venture a guess at the answer. But I'm not here to speak for them. They can speak for themself.
Trying to flip the script, saying "no you prove it!", is just another way of dodging questions.
For one, you could at least acknowledge that so glibly dismissing hundreds of thousands donated as "miniscule", as if to make it seem unimportant, was tone deaf. You didn't think that through before you typed it.
Further, I didn't say they were paying themselves. What I'm asking is exactly what I wrote...
If they are, in fact, not paying themselves, and they're using free/cheap Unity assets for the game, which have not been updated in the years since they first showed them off, then where did all the backer money go? Why do they need a $10,000 tier? That's what I'm asking.
Those are pertinent questions. Especially if you're one of those who've contributed to the "miniscule" 100s of thousands.
I don't know the answer. You don't know the answer. Only they do, and apparently they're not talking about it. At least not publicly. But here you are speaking on their behalf, defending them, when you really aren't equipped to do so, either. And when challenged on it, you resort to quoting them as though it's the ultimate defense.
Talk is cheap. I could post a dozen examples of dev projects whose creators "said" a lot of things that later proved to be BS.
I'll tell ya the problem here, Slapshot. You jumped into a discussion, running to the defense of a project, and people, that you know just as little about as anyone else. You made a lot of positive assertions of goings-on you have no real authority to speak on, you talked yourself into a corner, and now you're trying to slither out of it with deflections and strawmen.
You say you have no way of proving it. That's 100% correct. So... why continue to try and defend it? Just say "you know what, I over-spoke and said things I can't prove beyond quotes I can't verify the veracity of, either. So I'll just retract my statements".
But if you're going to continue trying to defend them, then I'm going to continue to ask you how you explain all the money they've raised if it's not gone to pay themselves, nor into custom assets, etc.
It's a valid question. If you don't know, you don't know. But stop acting like you're privy to some kind of inside knowledge, when you clearly aren't.
When someone makes an allegation of wrongdoing... the burden is on them to provide proof. How do you expect me, who is not a backer or part of the company to refute an allegation that was made with no evidence?
You don't have evidence of your remarks, either, beyond another person's say-so. But that doesn't stop you from trying anyway, does it?
"As we head into our sixth year (March, 2020), not a single one of us has seen even a penny of salary for our time. Investor money and pre-order sales go straight to our contractors and business expenses. We’re still here working for free, just like we have been since day one. As business owners, we believe that our paychecks are only justified once we have launched a finished product."
If you, or Bruce or Kano believe that is a lie... that's great for you. You can have an opinion just like anyone else. If any of you has ACTUAL proof then share it and everyone will get behind you if it's legit. You are making allegations of outright FRAUD with legal repercussions for the team if true. And then seemingly expecting random forum members to refute the claim... If what is alleged is TRUE, then get a police agency involved.
And, to think that I am "on the defensive for the project and it's creators' character" is just an asinine statement. Asking for evidence of a fraud allegation is common sense.
I'm not asserting anything. I'm asking questions.
Bruce, from what I've seen, is basically doing the same, though they do venture a guess at the answer. But I'm not here to speak for them. They can speak for themself.
Trying to flip the script, saying "no you prove it!", is just another way of dodging questions.
For one, you could at least acknowledge that so glibly dismissing hundreds of thousands donated as "miniscule", as if to make it seem unimportant, was tone deaf. You didn't think that through before you typed it.
Further, I didn't say they were paying themselves. What I'm asking is exactly what I wrote...
If they are, in fact, not paying themselves, and they're using free/cheap Unity assets for the game, which have not been updated in the years since they first showed them off, then where did all the backer money go? Why do they need a $10,000 tier?
Those are pertinent questions. Especially if you're one of those who've contributed to the "miniscule" 100s of thousands.
I don't know the answer. You don't know the answer. Only they do, and apparently they're not talking about it. At least not publicly. But here you are speaking on their behalf, defending them, when you really aren't equipped to do so, either. And when challenged on it, you resort to quoting them as though it's the ultimate defense.
Talk is cheap. I could post a dozen examples of dev projects whose creators "said" a lot of things that later proved to be BS.
I'll tell ya the problem here, Slapshot. You jumped into a discussion, running to the defense of a project, and people, that you know just as little about as anyone else. You made a lot of positive assertions of goings-on you have no real authority to speak on, you talked yourself into a corner, and now you're trying to slither out of it with deflections and strawmen.
You say you have no way of proving it. That's 100% correct. So... why continue to try and defend it? Just say "you know what, I over-spoke and said things I can't prove beyond quotes I can't verify the veracity of, either. So I'll just retract my statements".
But if you're going to continue trying to defend them, then I'm going to continue to ask you how you explain all the money they've raised if it's not gone to pay themselves, nor into custom assets, etc.
It's a valid question. If you don't know, you don't know. But stop acting like you're privy to some kind of inside knowledge, when you clearly aren't.
You live in a world so divorced from reality it seems impossible to have a rational conversation. In the real world, when one make an allegation they are the ones presumed to have to back it up.
Here- I believe you are in fact Renfail and that you made this fake account to try and create a silly argument that I easily win, thus getting me to win his PR battle and discredit any complaint. It's so obvious that you are a sock puppet account. Anyone can see it. Do I have proof? Well, if by that you mean actual tangible proof then no, but anyone can see it.
See how ludicrous that is? That is not the way the world works.
If you think that asking for evidence to back up a claim of actual legal FRAUD is defending them, you are too divorced from reality to have a discussion with.
IMHO this is everything wrong with society today. Someone makes an allegation and there is a rush to cancel. All we know is that Tim and his brother left the company. Maybe they did something wrong. Maybe the others did something wrong. Maybe they were playing D&D and Tim got pissed off because the DM was cheating...
Post edited by Slapshot1188 on
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
@BruceYee the difference is that with COE or Greedmonger or PFO or any other situation is that I always said: Here us what you said. Here is what you did. Thus showing evidence that what they said and did were different. That’s how the world works. Tim said quite clearly that they drew no salary. If it’s proven that he did then that would be fraud and I suspect that would have legal repercussions.
But you can’t just toss out fraud bombs and not back it up.
By the way the editor has gone nuts so I can’t see what I’m typing. Apologies for any typos above.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Hey hey everyone, I think you will all be interested by the official statement of Stormheaven Studio that you can find on our forums and social media: here
I copy paste it for your convenience:
Austin, TX, March 15, 2021 - Timothy and Joseph Anderson have withdrawn as members of Stormhaven Studios LLC and no longer represent the company in any capacity. The remaining team wishes them well in their future endeavors and thanks them for their contributions to the project. Stormhaven Studios remains committed to delivering an engaging MMORPG experience as development continues full steam ahead. Weekly testing sessions with the community have allowed the team to test critical infrastructure and gather feedback on game play features as they are introduced. At the current pace of production Stormhaven is confident in its ability to bring the product to launch in a timely manner. A number of exciting announcements are on the horizon; stay tuned for future updates.
- Stormheaven Studio has continued the development of the game and continued weekly alpha testing sessions with no interuption all along that BAT SHIT CRAZY year of 2020. - We do have hired several contractors at different points that have been paid or are currently paid for their work on the game. - We still plan monthly subscription for our buisness model however we still discuss details of how we will do it. We want something fair for both customers and our service.
If you have any questions related to Stormheaven Studio feel free to ask me. However I will not speak about Renfail's project as I've the same informations that you guys find on the web.
Hey hey everyone, I think you will all be interested by the official statement of Stormheaven Studio that you can find on our forums and social media: here
I copy paste it for your convenience:
Austin, TX, March 15, 2021 - Timothy and Joseph Anderson have withdrawn as members of Stormhaven Studios LLC and no longer represent the company in any capacity. The remaining team wishes them well in their future endeavors and thanks them for their contributions to the project. Stormhaven Studios remains committed to delivering an engaging MMORPG experience as development continues full steam ahead. Weekly testing sessions with the community have allowed the team to test critical infrastructure and gather feedback on game play features as they are introduced. At the current pace of production Stormhaven is confident in its ability to bring the product to launch in a timely manner. A number of exciting announcements are on the horizon; stay tuned for future updates.
- Stormheaven Studio has continued the development of the game and continued weekly alpha testing sessions with no interuption all along that BAT SHIT CRAZY year of 2020. - We do have hired several contractors at different points that have been paid or are currently paid for their work on the game. - We still plan monthly subscription for our buisness model however we still discuss details of how we will do it. We want something fair for both customers and our service.
If you have any questions related to Stormheaven Studio feel free to ask me. However I will not speak about Renfail's project as I've the same informations that you guys find on the web.
This is an extremely vague statement. Can you elaborate on why the founder and the creator of this project has exited from this project?
This is extremely disconcerting for backers and potential backers.
Hey hey everyone, I think you will all be interested by the official statement of Stormheaven Studio that you can find on our forums and social media: here
I copy paste it for your convenience:
Austin, TX, March 15, 2021 - Timothy and Joseph Anderson have withdrawn as members of Stormhaven Studios LLC and no longer represent the company in any capacity. The remaining team wishes them well in their future endeavors and thanks them for their contributions to the project. Stormhaven Studios remains committed to delivering an engaging MMORPG experience as development continues full steam ahead. Weekly testing sessions with the community have allowed the team to test critical infrastructure and gather feedback on game play features as they are introduced. At the current pace of production Stormhaven is confident in its ability to bring the product to launch in a timely manner. A number of exciting announcements are on the horizon; stay tuned for future updates.
- Stormheaven Studio has continued the development of the game and continued weekly alpha testing sessions with no interuption all along that BAT SHIT CRAZY year of 2020. - We do have hired several contractors at different points that have been paid or are currently paid for their work on the game. - We still plan monthly subscription for our buisness model however we still discuss details of how we will do it. We want something fair for both customers and our service.
If you have any questions related to Stormheaven Studio feel free to ask me. However I will not speak about Renfail's project as I've the same informations that you guys find on the web.
This is an extremely vague statement. Can you elaborate on why the founder and the creator of this project has exited from this project?
This is extremely disconcerting for backers and potential backers.
Here let me help you.
@elloa There is a rumor being spread that Tim's departure centered around paying himself from the Crowdfunded money. While I understand that you cannot directly address Tim's leaving, I believe it can still be resolved. As I am sure you are aware, it was quite publicly stated on your website (and in multiple interviews) that the principals were NOT paying themselves with the Crowdfunded money. Since that statement was so prevalent and was used to solicit funding, can you confirm that this policy still stands: The Prinicpals are still working for "sweat equity" and are not paying themselves from the Crowdfunded proceeds?
For reference here is just one of the quotes used in the sales pitch (they can be found all over):
As we head into our sixth year (March, 2020), not a single one of us has seen even a penny of salary for our time. Investor money and pre-order sales go straight to our contractors and business expenses. We’re still here working for free, just like we have been since day one. As business owners, we believe that our paychecks are only justified once we have launched a finished product. https://sagaoflucimia.com/five-reasons-not-to-pre-order-the-saga-of-lucimia/
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Hey hey everyone, I think you will all be interested by the official statement of Stormheaven Studio that you can find on our forums and social media: here
I copy paste it for your convenience:
Austin, TX, March 15, 2021 - Timothy and Joseph Anderson have withdrawn as members of Stormhaven Studios LLC and no longer represent the company in any capacity. The remaining team wishes them well in their future endeavors and thanks them for their contributions to the project. Stormhaven Studios remains committed to delivering an engaging MMORPG experience as development continues full steam ahead. Weekly testing sessions with the community have allowed the team to test critical infrastructure and gather feedback on game play features as they are introduced. At the current pace of production Stormhaven is confident in its ability to bring the product to launch in a timely manner. A number of exciting announcements are on the horizon; stay tuned for future updates.
- Stormheaven Studio has continued the development of the game and continued weekly alpha testing sessions with no interuption all along that BAT SHIT CRAZY year of 2020. - We do have hired several contractors at different points that have been paid or are currently paid for their work on the game. - We still plan monthly subscription for our buisness model however we still discuss details of how we will do it. We want something fair for both customers and our service.
If you have any questions related to Stormheaven Studio feel free to ask me. However I will not speak about Renfail's project as I've the same informations that you guys find on the web.
This is an extremely vague statement. Can you elaborate on why the founder and the creator of this project has exited from this project?
This is extremely disconcerting for backers and potential backers.
Here let me help you.
@elloa There is a rumor being spread that Tim's departure centered around paying himself from the Crowdfunded money. While I understand that you cannot directly address Tim's leaving, I believe it can still be resolved. As I am sure you are aware, it was quite publicly stated on your website (and in multiple interviews) that the principals were NOT paying themselves with the Crowdfunded money. Since that statement was so prevalent and was used to solicit funding, can you confirm that this policy still stands: The Prinicpals are still working for "sweat equity" and are not paying themselves from the Crowdfunded proceeds?
You have some serious control issues lol. I think they should change your title officially to "Forum Police"
You're not going to get any kind of serious response from her either.
Hey hey everyone, I think you will all be interested by the official statement of Stormheaven Studio that you can find on our forums and social media: here
I copy paste it for your convenience:
Austin, TX, March 15, 2021 - Timothy and Joseph Anderson have withdrawn as members of Stormhaven Studios LLC and no longer represent the company in any capacity. The remaining team wishes them well in their future endeavors and thanks them for their contributions to the project. Stormhaven Studios remains committed to delivering an engaging MMORPG experience as development continues full steam ahead. Weekly testing sessions with the community have allowed the team to test critical infrastructure and gather feedback on game play features as they are introduced. At the current pace of production Stormhaven is confident in its ability to bring the product to launch in a timely manner. A number of exciting announcements are on the horizon; stay tuned for future updates.
- Stormheaven Studio has continued the development of the game and continued weekly alpha testing sessions with no interuption all along that BAT SHIT CRAZY year of 2020. - We do have hired several contractors at different points that have been paid or are currently paid for their work on the game. - We still plan monthly subscription for our buisness model however we still discuss details of how we will do it. We want something fair for both customers and our service.
If you have any questions related to Stormheaven Studio feel free to ask me. However I will not speak about Renfail's project as I've the same informations that you guys find on the web.
This is an extremely vague statement. Can you elaborate on why the founder and the creator of this project has exited from this project?
This is extremely disconcerting for backers and potential backers.
Here let me help you.
@elloa There is a rumor being spread that Tim's departure centered around paying himself from the Crowdfunded money. While I understand that you cannot directly address Tim's leaving, I believe it can still be resolved. As I am sure you are aware, it was quite publicly stated on your website (and in multiple interviews) that the principals were NOT paying themselves with the Crowdfunded money. Since that statement was so prevalent and was used to solicit funding, can you confirm that this policy still stands: The Prinicpals are still working for "sweat equity" and are not paying themselves from the Crowdfunded proceeds?
You have some serious control issues lol. I think they should change your title officially to "Forum Police"
You're not going to get any kind of serious response from her either.
A 3rd grader would know that if you ask a question framed as "Can you elaborate on why the founder and the creator of this project has exited from this project? " and there are obvious legal issues at play you will be told a simple "NO".
You guys alleged a very specific reason for the departure though, and given the public statements from the company about their policy related to "sweat equity", it should be easy to answer that that policy still exists- totally separate from the Tim issue.
If you keep asking the wrong questions you will never get the right answers.
Munch
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Hey hey everyone, I think you will all be interested by the official statement of Stormheaven Studio that you can find on our forums and social media: here
I copy paste it for your convenience:
Austin, TX, March 15, 2021 - Timothy and Joseph Anderson have withdrawn as members of Stormhaven Studios LLC and no longer represent the company in any capacity. The remaining team wishes them well in their future endeavors and thanks them for their contributions to the project. Stormhaven Studios remains committed to delivering an engaging MMORPG experience as development continues full steam ahead. Weekly testing sessions with the community have allowed the team to test critical infrastructure and gather feedback on game play features as they are introduced. At the current pace of production Stormhaven is confident in its ability to bring the product to launch in a timely manner. A number of exciting announcements are on the horizon; stay tuned for future updates.
- Stormheaven Studio has continued the development of the game and continued weekly alpha testing sessions with no interuption all along that BAT SHIT CRAZY year of 2020. - We do have hired several contractors at different points that have been paid or are currently paid for their work on the game. - We still plan monthly subscription for our buisness model however we still discuss details of how we will do it. We want something fair for both customers and our service.
If you have any questions related to Stormheaven Studio feel free to ask me. However I will not speak about Renfail's project as I've the same informations that you guys find on the web.
This is an extremely vague statement. Can you elaborate on why the founder and the creator of this project has exited from this project?
This is extremely disconcerting for backers and potential backers.
Here let me help you.
@elloa There is a rumor being spread that Tim's departure centered around paying himself from the Crowdfunded money. While I understand that you cannot directly address Tim's leaving, I believe it can still be resolved. As I am sure you are aware, it was quite publicly stated on your website (and in multiple interviews) that the principals were NOT paying themselves with the Crowdfunded money. Since that statement was so prevalent and was used to solicit funding, can you confirm that this policy still stands: The Prinicpals are still working for "sweat equity" and are not paying themselves from the Crowdfunded proceeds?
You have some serious control issues lol. I think they should change your title officially to "Forum Police"
You're not going to get any kind of serious response from her either.
A 3rd grader would know that if you ask a question framed as "Can you elaborate on why the founder and the creator of this project has exited from this project? " and there are obvious legal issues at play you will be told a simple "NO".
You guys alleged a very specific reason for the departure though, and given the public statements from the company about their policy related to "sweat equity", it should be easy to answer that that policy still exists- totally separate from the Tim issue.
If you keep asking the wrong questions you will never get the right answers.
Munch
There is no right question in order to get answers from these guys. Again, you're are providing more cover them and making more excuses.
I think it is rather humorous that you had to slip in the "3rd grader" comment as well. Just another thinly veiled ad hominem.
Hey hey everyone, I think you will all be interested by the official statement of Stormheaven Studio that you can find on our forums and social media: here
I copy paste it for your convenience:
Austin, TX, March 15, 2021 - Timothy and Joseph Anderson have withdrawn as members of Stormhaven Studios LLC and no longer represent the company in any capacity. The remaining team wishes them well in their future endeavors and thanks them for their contributions to the project. Stormhaven Studios remains committed to delivering an engaging MMORPG experience as development continues full steam ahead. Weekly testing sessions with the community have allowed the team to test critical infrastructure and gather feedback on game play features as they are introduced. At the current pace of production Stormhaven is confident in its ability to bring the product to launch in a timely manner. A number of exciting announcements are on the horizon; stay tuned for future updates.
- Stormheaven Studio has continued the development of the game and continued weekly alpha testing sessions with no interuption all along that BAT SHIT CRAZY year of 2020. - We do have hired several contractors at different points that have been paid or are currently paid for their work on the game. - We still plan monthly subscription for our buisness model however we still discuss details of how we will do it. We want something fair for both customers and our service.
If you have any questions related to Stormheaven Studio feel free to ask me. However I will not speak about Renfail's project as I've the same informations that you guys find on the web.
This is an extremely vague statement. Can you elaborate on why the founder and the creator of this project has exited from this project?
This is extremely disconcerting for backers and potential backers.
Here let me help you.
@elloa There is a rumor being spread that Tim's departure centered around paying himself from the Crowdfunded money. While I understand that you cannot directly address Tim's leaving, I believe it can still be resolved. As I am sure you are aware, it was quite publicly stated on your website (and in multiple interviews) that the principals were NOT paying themselves with the Crowdfunded money. Since that statement was so prevalent and was used to solicit funding, can you confirm that this policy still stands: The Prinicpals are still working for "sweat equity" and are not paying themselves from the Crowdfunded proceeds?
You have some serious control issues lol. I think they should change your title officially to "Forum Police"
You're not going to get any kind of serious response from her either.
A 3rd grader would know that if you ask a question framed as "Can you elaborate on why the founder and the creator of this project has exited from this project? " and there are obvious legal issues at play you will be told a simple "NO".
You guys alleged a very specific reason for the departure though, and given the public statements from the company about their policy related to "sweat equity", it should be easy to answer that that policy still exists- totally separate from the Tim issue.
If you keep asking the wrong questions you will never get the right answers.
Munch
There is no right question in order to get answers from these guys. Again, you're are providing more cover them and making more excuses.
I think it is rather humorous that you had to slip in the "3rd grader" comment as well. Just another thinly veiled ad hominem.
How much are these guys paying you?
Munch I can answer that!!! Munch ZERO!!! Munch Any other questions? Munch
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Hey hey everyone, I think you will all be interested by the official statement of Stormheaven Studio that you can find on our forums and social media: here
I copy paste it for your convenience:
Austin, TX, March 15, 2021 - Timothy and Joseph Anderson have withdrawn as members of Stormhaven Studios LLC and no longer represent the company in any capacity. The remaining team wishes them well in their future endeavors and thanks them for their contributions to the project. Stormhaven Studios remains committed to delivering an engaging MMORPG experience as development continues full steam ahead. Weekly testing sessions with the community have allowed the team to test critical infrastructure and gather feedback on game play features as they are introduced. At the current pace of production Stormhaven is confident in its ability to bring the product to launch in a timely manner. A number of exciting announcements are on the horizon; stay tuned for future updates.
- Stormheaven Studio has continued the development of the game and continued weekly alpha testing sessions with no interuption all along that BAT SHIT CRAZY year of 2020. - We do have hired several contractors at different points that have been paid or are currently paid for their work on the game. - We still plan monthly subscription for our buisness model however we still discuss details of how we will do it. We want something fair for both customers and our service.
If you have any questions related to Stormheaven Studio feel free to ask me. However I will not speak about Renfail's project as I've the same informations that you guys find on the web.
@Elloa can you clarify the timeline of Tim and Joseph Anderson's departure from the company?
@Renfail made a post in January 3rd saying that they "haven't been involved" since September 2020.
Yesterday, Stormhaven studios made the following statement:
"Tim and Joey aren't simply not involved, but are in fact no longer
owners of Stormhaven Studios or connected to the company in any way as
of today, March 15th."
Are you saying that @Renfail and his brother were still owners on March 14, 2021?
March 15th coincides with the public announcement and closing of the pre-order store. However, some might think you've been collecting pre-order pledge money, for the past 6 months, based on the false pretense that the founder of the company was still involved.
And rename this thread to... Wherefore Art Thou @Elloa ?
That would actually be funny you could do that and every time there was a new post she got a notification of being mentioned
The fact that Tim is liking these "where is the cm" posts kind of is revealing. I'd bet my left arm that the studio is going to announce it's closure in a few months.
And rename this thread to... Wherefore Art Thou @Elloa ?
That would actually be funny you could do that and every time there was a new post she got a notification of being mentioned
The fact that Tim is liking these "where is the cm" posts kind of is revealing. I'd bet my left arm that the studio is going to announce it's closure in a few months.
I agree its revealing, but I'll take you up on that bet if you want. Say... by end of June? I'll accept photographic evidence of your payment.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
And rename this thread to... Wherefore Art Thou @Elloa ?
That would actually be funny you could do that and every time there was a new post she got a notification of being mentioned
The fact that Tim is liking these "where is the cm" posts kind of is revealing. I'd bet my left arm that the studio is going to announce it's closure in a few months.
I agree its revealing, but I'll take you up on that bet if you want. Say... by end of June? I'll accept photographic evidence of your payment.
DOL? Much better than SOL. I told Tim months ago that wasn't a very good acronym.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Comments
MMORPG.com you gonna do some reporting on this?
Those aren't insignificant points he raises, and you've yet to address them.
Saying "well they're not doing what CoE did..." is irrelevant. It's a deflection, not a defense. This thread isn't about CoE, and invoking it does nothing to address the questions raised about SoL.
If they kept their day jobs and didn't need to pay themselves, what was the backers' "miniscule hundreds of thousands" spent on? Are they just sitting on it? Why the $10,000 backer tier?
Those are all very relevant questions. If I was a backer (almost was), I'd certainly be asking those questions myself by now.
I'm backing CU and I've been asking myself similar questions with the way that project is going. It's a reasonable thing to do when you're backing a project. It's a reasonable thing to do when there's an option to do so.
So, it's not unreasonable for Bruce to raise those questions to you, given how you are very much on the defensive for the project and its creators' character.
You entered this discussion and made the remarks you made. It's perfectly fair for others to challenge you on them and expect a response.
From the start the principals have clearly stated that they did not pay themselves "one penny". If someone THINKS they lied and has no proof then that is called an opinion. The last official word I found on this is here: https://sagaoflucimia.com/five-reasons-not-to-pre-order-the-saga-of-lucimia/
"As we head into our sixth year (March, 2020), not a single one of us has seen even a penny of salary for our time. Investor money and pre-order sales go straight to our contractors and business expenses. We’re still here working for free, just like we have been since day one. As business owners, we believe that our paychecks are only justified once we have launched a finished product."
If you, or Bruce or Kano believe that is a lie... that's great for you. You can have an opinion just like anyone else. If any of you has ACTUAL proof then share it and everyone will get behind you if it's legit. You are making allegations of outright FRAUD with legal repercussions for the team if true. And then seemingly expecting random forum members to refute the claim... If what is alleged is TRUE, then get a police agency involved.
And, to think that I am "on the defensive for the project and it's creators' character" is just an asinine statement. Asking for evidence of a fraud allegation is common sense.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Bruce, from what I've seen, is basically doing the same, though they do venture a guess at the answer. But I'm not here to speak for them. They can speak for themself.
Trying to flip the script, saying "no you prove it!", is just another way of dodging questions.
For one, you could at least acknowledge that so glibly dismissing hundreds of thousands donated as "miniscule", as if to make it seem unimportant, was tone deaf. You didn't think that through before you typed it.
Further, I didn't say they were paying themselves. What I'm asking is exactly what I wrote...
If they are, in fact, not paying themselves, and they're using free/cheap Unity assets for the game, which have not been updated in the years since they first showed them off, then where did all the backer money go? Why do they need a $10,000 tier? That's what I'm asking.
Those are pertinent questions. Especially if you're one of those who've contributed to the "miniscule" 100s of thousands.
I don't know the answer. You don't know the answer. Only they do, and apparently they're not talking about it. At least not publicly. But here you are speaking on their behalf, defending them, when you really aren't equipped to do so, either. And when challenged on it, you resort to quoting them as though it's the ultimate defense.
Talk is cheap. I could post a dozen examples of dev projects whose creators "said" a lot of things that later proved to be BS.
I'll tell ya the problem here, Slapshot. You jumped into a discussion, running to the defense of a project, and people, that you know just as little about as anyone else. You made a lot of positive assertions of goings-on you have no real authority to speak on, you talked yourself into a corner, and now you're trying to slither out of it with deflections and strawmen.
You say you have no way of proving it. That's 100% correct. So... why continue to try and defend it? Just say "you know what, I over-spoke and said things I can't prove beyond quotes I can't verify the veracity of, either. So I'll just retract my statements".
But if you're going to continue trying to defend them, then I'm going to continue to ask you how you explain all the money they've raised if it's not gone to pay themselves, nor into custom assets, etc.
It's a valid question. If you don't know, you don't know. But stop acting like you're privy to some kind of inside knowledge, when you clearly aren't.
Here- I believe you are in fact Renfail and that you made this fake account to try and create a silly argument that I easily win, thus getting me to win his PR battle and discredit any complaint. It's so obvious that you are a sock puppet account. Anyone can see it. Do I have proof? Well, if by that you mean actual tangible proof then no, but anyone can see it.
See how ludicrous that is? That is not the way the world works.
If you think that asking for evidence to back up a claim of actual legal FRAUD is defending them, you are too divorced from reality to have a discussion with.
IMHO this is everything wrong with society today. Someone makes an allegation and there is a rush to cancel. All we know is that Tim and his brother left the company. Maybe they did something wrong. Maybe the others did something wrong. Maybe they were playing D&D and Tim got pissed off because the DM was cheating...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Here us what you said. Here is what you did.
Thus showing evidence that what they said and did were different. That’s how the world works. Tim said quite clearly that they drew no salary. If it’s proven that he did then that would be fraud and I suspect that would have legal repercussions.
But you can’t just toss out fraud bombs and not back it up.
By the way the editor has gone nuts so I can’t see what I’m typing. Apologies for any typos above.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I copy paste it for your convenience:
Stormhaven Studios remains committed to delivering an engaging MMORPG experience as development continues full steam ahead. Weekly testing sessions with the community have allowed the team to test critical infrastructure and gather feedback on game play features as they are introduced. At the current pace of production Stormhaven is confident in its ability to bring the product to launch in a timely manner.
A number of exciting announcements are on the horizon; stay tuned for future updates.
- Stormheaven Studio has continued the development of the game and continued weekly alpha testing sessions with no interuption all along that BAT SHIT CRAZY year of 2020.
- We do have hired several contractors at different points that have been paid or are currently paid for their work on the game.
- We still plan monthly subscription for our buisness model however we still discuss details of how we will do it. We want something fair for both customers and our service.
If you have any questions related to Stormheaven Studio feel free to ask me. However I will not speak about Renfail's project as I've the same informations that you guys find on the web.
This is extremely disconcerting for backers and potential backers.
@elloa There is a rumor being spread that Tim's departure centered around paying himself from the Crowdfunded money. While I understand that you cannot directly address Tim's leaving, I believe it can still be resolved. As I am sure you are aware, it was quite publicly stated on your website (and in multiple interviews) that the principals were NOT paying themselves with the Crowdfunded money. Since that statement was so prevalent and was used to solicit funding, can you confirm that this policy still stands: The Prinicpals are still working for "sweat equity" and are not paying themselves from the Crowdfunded proceeds?
For reference here is just one of the quotes used in the sales pitch (they can be found all over):
As we head into our sixth year (March, 2020), not a single one of us has seen even a penny of salary for our time. Investor money and pre-order sales go straight to our contractors and business expenses. We’re still here working for free, just like we have been since day one. As business owners, we believe that our paychecks are only justified once we have launched a finished product.
https://sagaoflucimia.com/five-reasons-not-to-pre-order-the-saga-of-lucimia/
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
You're not going to get any kind of serious response from her either.
You guys alleged a very specific reason for the departure though, and given the public statements from the company about their policy related to "sweat equity", it should be easy to answer that that policy still exists- totally separate from the Tim issue.
If you keep asking the wrong questions you will never get the right answers.
Munch
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I think it is rather humorous that you had to slip in the "3rd grader" comment as well. Just another thinly veiled ad hominem.
How much are these guys paying you?
I can answer that!!!
Munch
ZERO!!!
Munch
Any other questions?
Munch
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Is that still a thing?
And rename this thread to... Wherefore Art Thou @Elloa ?
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED