Wherefore Art Thou Renfail?

Brainy

Slapshot1188 said:

borghive49 said:

Brainy said:

What I see is a lot of people defending these CF MMO's over the years.  Funny how over time these people are now trying to walk it back.  Pretending to be neutral and telling people to take a wait and see approach.  Yeah nobody is fooling anyone with this.  Would you tell people to give benefit of doubt, if you daughter was next door with a possible rapist? Give me a break.

We know there are 2 sides here, even if just slightly leaning, 1 this is skeptical leaning to scam, or is optimist leaning to legit.

When you ask questions like where is the proof they are a scam, then where is the proof they are legit? Yeah ZIP.

Focusing on these technicalities of salary or no salary just perks ... Now you are just walking your position back as you see you are hanging on a ledge.

Reality is, nobody has any concrete evidence.  Nobody is ever going to find out for sure minus a whistleblower, that will be denied.

When do these CF's have to prove they are being legit?

I haven't seen any important facts other than to quote what people are saying, which could all be lies.

These are all just opinions on both sides, lets not call people high and mighty for stating an opinion, while you sit there stating an opinion.  Hypocrite much?

Apparently people can't have opinions anymore or even speculate. I mean, last time I checked, this was a gaming forum right? Where else are you gonna express crazy opinions about studios and games? This is why I get pissed off at posters like Slap, they want to completely squash the conversation because of lack of evidence. 

These forums are supposed to be entertainment, not some kind of court. Smearing games, studios and the developers is half the fun of posting on these style of forums. As long as isn't death threats or people revealing information that could harm people, I think everything is fair game. 

SoL deserves every ounce of negative press it is getting these days. This project from the outset has been nothing but one giant train wreck.

You can have your own OPINION.  It's healthy.  What you can't do is call someone a SHILL for simply saying they can't join that opinion without something to support it.

There is plenty of tar and feathers in the basement.  I just think we hold off on using them until we actually see evidence of malfeasance.  The beauty of these things is that the truth ALWAYS comes out.  Its just a matter of when...

Interestingly you are clearly acting as if they need to be protected legally, like there is some burden of proof required to criticize their actions.

I wonder what standard you are using to protect them.

Here are some legal standards

1) substantial evidence

2) preponderance of the evidence

3) clear and convincing evidence
4) proof beyond a reasonable doubt

What standard am I using to determine if I think this game will release with its intended features.  Probably level 1 or 2, which is enough to protect backers from making a bad decision.  Considering they are already beyond the intended release, that's already a FACT they failed on.

If you flip this and ask what standard the developers are currently meeting to prove their game is actually going to release in a reasonable time with intended features and the critics are wrong.
I don't believe they are very high on that standard.  I don't even know if they meet 1)

Slapshot1188

Iselin said:

BruceYee said:

1. Contractors to do work or are the employees at the company doing work?? You do know "hiring contractors" is the most vague and only? excuse for how they spent money they've mentioned right? You can hire contractors for less than a days work so if they say "we spent some money for contractors it could literally mean they hired ONE contractor for ONE day or two contractors for less than a day.

You're actually speculating about contractors in the wrong direction.

Hiring contractors to work for a long time as almost indistinguishable from employees is actually quite common. It gets around all kinds of employer / employee obligations.

I'd be more interested to know just how many of the people actually working on this game are "employees" who apparently draw no salary vs. contractors who ARE paid.

My guess is that there are probably more contractors than employees.

You are right.  But the people that are not getting paid are the owners (or at least the ones that claimed not to be getting paid).  They were the group that started and worked for "sweat equity".  I believe they started out at 9-10.  I know at least 3 left including Tim and his brother.  No idea if they brought more people on as part owners for sweat equity or if those remaining just have a larger percent now.

I think it likely that at any given time there are more contractors than sweat equity folks but that's just a guess on my side.

Slapshot1188

Brainy said:

Slapshot1188 said:

borghive49 said:

Brainy said:

What I see is a lot of people defending these CF MMO's over the years.  Funny how over time these people are now trying to walk it back.  Pretending to be neutral and telling people to take a wait and see approach.  Yeah nobody is fooling anyone with this.  Would you tell people to give benefit of doubt, if you daughter was next door with a possible rapist? Give me a break.

We know there are 2 sides here, even if just slightly leaning, 1 this is skeptical leaning to scam, or is optimist leaning to legit.

When you ask questions like where is the proof they are a scam, then where is the proof they are legit? Yeah ZIP.

Focusing on these technicalities of salary or no salary just perks ... Now you are just walking your position back as you see you are hanging on a ledge.

Reality is, nobody has any concrete evidence.  Nobody is ever going to find out for sure minus a whistleblower, that will be denied.

When do these CF's have to prove they are being legit?

I haven't seen any important facts other than to quote what people are saying, which could all be lies.

These are all just opinions on both sides, lets not call people high and mighty for stating an opinion, while you sit there stating an opinion.  Hypocrite much?

Apparently people can't have opinions anymore or even speculate. I mean, last time I checked, this was a gaming forum right? Where else are you gonna express crazy opinions about studios and games? This is why I get pissed off at posters like Slap, they want to completely squash the conversation because of lack of evidence. 

These forums are supposed to be entertainment, not some kind of court. Smearing games, studios and the developers is half the fun of posting on these style of forums. As long as isn't death threats or people revealing information that could harm people, I think everything is fair game. 

SoL deserves every ounce of negative press it is getting these days. This project from the outset has been nothing but one giant train wreck.

You can have your own OPINION.  It's healthy.  What you can't do is call someone a SHILL for simply saying they can't join that opinion without something to support it.

There is plenty of tar and feathers in the basement.  I just think we hold off on using them until we actually see evidence of malfeasance.  The beauty of these things is that the truth ALWAYS comes out.  Its just a matter of when...

Interestingly you are clearly acting as if they need to be protected legally, like there is some burden of proof required to criticize their actions.

I wonder what standard you are using to protect them.

Here are some legal standards

1) substantial evidence

2) preponderance of the evidence

3) clear and convincing evidence
4) proof beyond a reasonable doubt

What standard am I using to determine if I think this game will release with its intended features.  Probably level 1 or 2, which is enough to protect backers from making a bad decision.  Considering they are already beyond the intended release, that's already a FACT they failed on.

If you flip this and ask what standard the developers are currently meeting to prove their game is actually going to release in a reasonable time with intended features and the critics are wrong.
I don't believe they are very high on that standard.  I don't even know if they meet 1)

What I think you are missing here is something mentioned a few times:

Backers have access to the game and it's current state.  They can play weekly.
So they are providing proof of the games status to the people that actually paid for it.  This is why I do not rule out pseudoKano's claim that the game is 98% incomplete.  He has seen it.  But when I look at the Discord and Forums I do not see many (if any) people making the same claims.

Thus I will wait.

Slapshot1188

remsleep said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Brainy said:

Slapshot1188 said:

borghive49 said:

Brainy said:

What I see is a lot of people defending these CF MMO's over the years.  Funny how over time these people are now trying to walk it back.  Pretending to be neutral and telling people to take a wait and see approach.  Yeah nobody is fooling anyone with this.  Would you tell people to give benefit of doubt, if you daughter was next door with a possible rapist? Give me a break.

We know there are 2 sides here, even if just slightly leaning, 1 this is skeptical leaning to scam, or is optimist leaning to legit.

When you ask questions like where is the proof they are a scam, then where is the proof they are legit? Yeah ZIP.

Focusing on these technicalities of salary or no salary just perks ... Now you are just walking your position back as you see you are hanging on a ledge.

Reality is, nobody has any concrete evidence.  Nobody is ever going to find out for sure minus a whistleblower, that will be denied.

When do these CF's have to prove they are being legit?

I haven't seen any important facts other than to quote what people are saying, which could all be lies.

These are all just opinions on both sides, lets not call people high and mighty for stating an opinion, while you sit there stating an opinion.  Hypocrite much?

Apparently people can't have opinions anymore or even speculate. I mean, last time I checked, this was a gaming forum right? Where else are you gonna express crazy opinions about studios and games? This is why I get pissed off at posters like Slap, they want to completely squash the conversation because of lack of evidence. 

These forums are supposed to be entertainment, not some kind of court. Smearing games, studios and the developers is half the fun of posting on these style of forums. As long as isn't death threats or people revealing information that could harm people, I think everything is fair game. 

SoL deserves every ounce of negative press it is getting these days. This project from the outset has been nothing but one giant train wreck.

You can have your own OPINION.  It's healthy.  What you can't do is call someone a SHILL for simply saying they can't join that opinion without something to support it.

There is plenty of tar and feathers in the basement.  I just think we hold off on using them until we actually see evidence of malfeasance.  The beauty of these things is that the truth ALWAYS comes out.  Its just a matter of when...

Interestingly you are clearly acting as if they need to be protected legally, like there is some burden of proof required to criticize their actions.

I wonder what standard you are using to protect them.

Here are some legal standards

1) substantial evidence

2) preponderance of the evidence

3) clear and convincing evidence
4) proof beyond a reasonable doubt

What standard am I using to determine if I think this game will release with its intended features.  Probably level 1 or 2, which is enough to protect backers from making a bad decision.  Considering they are already beyond the intended release, that's already a FACT they failed on.

If you flip this and ask what standard the developers are currently meeting to prove their game is actually going to release in a reasonable time with intended features and the critics are wrong.
I don't believe they are very high on that standard.  I don't even know if they meet 1)

What I think you are missing here is something mentioned a few times:

Backers have access to the game and it's current state.  They can play weekly.
So they are providing proof of the games status to the people that actually paid for it.  This is why I do not rule out pseudoKano's claim that the game is 98% incomplete.  He has seen it.  But when I look at the Discord and Forums I do not see many (if any) people making the same claims.

Thus I will wait.

Because the NDA is hiding what is as plain as daylight is to anyone who has access to the "game" - heavy quotation marks in case anyone missed it

And thus the truth with these projects will ALWAYS come to light.

BruceYee

Brainy said:

What I see is a lot of people defending these CF MMO's over the years.  Funny how over time these people are now trying to walk it back.  Pretending to be neutral and telling people to take a wait and see approach.  Yeah nobody is fooling anyone with this.  Would you tell people to give benefit of doubt, if you daughter was next door with a possible rapist? Give me a break.

We know there are 2 sides here, even if just slightly leaning, 1 this is skeptical leaning to scam, or is optimist leaning to legit.

When you ask questions like where is the proof they are a scam, then where is the proof they are legit? Yeah ZIP.

Focusing on these technicalities of salary or no salary just perks ... Now you are just walking your position back as you see you are hanging on a ledge.

Reality is, nobody has any concrete evidence.  Nobody is ever going to find out for sure minus a whistleblower, that will be denied.

When do these CF's have to prove they are being legit?

I haven't seen any important facts other than to quote what people are saying, which could all be lies.

These are all just opinions on both sides, lets not call people high and mighty for stating an opinion, while you sit there stating an opinion.  Hypocrite much?

And on top of what you said they are in other threads like the Dreamworld and CoE ones saying the exact opposite of what they're saying in this one. They're making the EXACT same claims in those threads that I'm making for this one based on exactly the same amount of information. Go have a look at the hypocrisy...

Slapshot1188

BruceYee said:

Brainy said:

What I see is a lot of people defending these CF MMO's over the years.  Funny how over time these people are now trying to walk it back.  Pretending to be neutral and telling people to take a wait and see approach.  Yeah nobody is fooling anyone with this.  Would you tell people to give benefit of doubt, if you daughter was next door with a possible rapist? Give me a break.

We know there are 2 sides here, even if just slightly leaning, 1 this is skeptical leaning to scam, or is optimist leaning to legit.

When you ask questions like where is the proof they are a scam, then where is the proof they are legit? Yeah ZIP.

Focusing on these technicalities of salary or no salary just perks ... Now you are just walking your position back as you see you are hanging on a ledge.

Reality is, nobody has any concrete evidence.  Nobody is ever going to find out for sure minus a whistleblower, that will be denied.

When do these CF's have to prove they are being legit?

I haven't seen any important facts other than to quote what people are saying, which could all be lies.

These are all just opinions on both sides, lets not call people high and mighty for stating an opinion, while you sit there stating an opinion.  Hypocrite much?

And on top of what you said they are in other threads like the Dreamworld and CoE ones saying the exact opposite of what they're saying in this one. They're making the EXACT same claims in those threads that I'm making for this one based on exactly the same amount of information. Go have a look at the hypocrisy...

Dunno who “they” is but if it’s supposed to include me you would once again be wrong.

Slapshot1188

Mars_OMG said:

calling someone a shill, is an opinion. Logic 101 . The word shill is subjective, and can be used as noun or adjective. Skimming through this thread, it's insanity !

That would actually be incorrect.  Saying “I think you are being a shill” is an opinion. Saying “Mars is a shill” is a statement of fact.  Furthermore, shill is a noun or a verb as far as I know.  Not an adjective. 

Please don’t botch simple concepts if you want to call out Logic101. 

BruceYee

Iselin said:

BruceYee said:

1. Contractors to do work or are the employees at the company doing work?? You do know "hiring contractors" is the most vague and only? excuse for how they spent money they've mentioned right? You can hire contractors for less than a days work so if they say "we spent some money for contractors it could literally mean they hired ONE contractor for ONE day or two contractors for less than a day.

You're actually speculating about contractors in the wrong direction.

Hiring contractors to work for a long time as almost indistinguishable from employees is actually quite common. It gets around all kinds of employer / employee obligations.

I'd be more interested to know just how many of the people actually working on this game are "employees" who apparently draw no salary vs. contractors who ARE paid.

My guess is that there are probably more contractors than employees.

Yet the claim I made isn't false and you know that but for some reason you try to discredit it with this statement...

"You're actually speculating about contractors in the wrong direction."

How can I be speculating about contractors in the "wrong direction" when what I said is 100% true which is a contractor can be hired for HOURS, be paid for that time and also make their statement true which is... "we paid contractors".

"My guess is that there are probably more contractors than employees."

How would you or anyone besides them know this? they haven't said anything of the sort and if we're following Slapshot's rules then "they didn't say" should apply to this too, right? or are we picking and choosing now according to what point we want to prove at different times? You are guessing the same as me but for some reason guessing the 'wrong things' makes people valiantly come to the defense of this game while those same people go against other crowdfund games even at this very moment with basically the same information... go to the Dreamworld and CoE threads to have a look...

IF there are actually more contractors than employees like you suggest then why would they not just come out and say... "Most of the backer money was used to pay contractors". I can tell you why... because when you pay contractors there is a physical/visual trail then people can ask "oh yeah, who?"

I know because I worked as a contractor for a little over a year once and had to provide my personal information to them.

I said this in a previous post but feel like I need to repeat it again cause people are now 'picking sides' in something where the 'sides' should really not have to be 'picked'...

Read this then 'pick your side'...

Crowdfund developer collects money from unsuspecting gamers for over 5 years and makes only minimal improvements to the "game" which is basically just a tech/game demo that is only up for 1-2 hours each week. "Developer" and everyone at the company with ZERO previous game development experience promises a beta or release date of 2017 but doesn't deliver. Founder, CEO, CFO leaves the company in 2020...

Also worth mentioning that for their tech/game demo they had...

$10,000 pre-order pledge where any average person could be named as "Executive Producer"

A "referral program" for their tech demo that was based on HOW MUCH MONEY YOU SPEND...

"There is different perks and differents rewards depending of the money invested. A new account system had been created with a referal program and this can be seen on the website. Saga of Lucimia is also planning to allow guild pre-order with interesting and exciting Guild perks. T-shirt, Artwork print, and textile map are avalaible in the store"

A "guild pre-order" for more money with "perks" whatever that means for a tech/game demo.

And sold merchandise for a tech/game demo...

They continued to sell things listed above for YEARS after the missed beta/release deadline of 2017 and ONLY stopped sales on their site A FEW DAYS AGO.

After reading those FACTS about the game pick your side and if it's the side of the developer who collected free money from unawares gamers JUST LIKE Dreamworld JUST DID except over a much longer period of time and for much more money then...

Iselin

BruceYee said:

Iselin said:

BruceYee said:

1. Contractors to do work or are the employees at the company doing work?? You do know "hiring contractors" is the most vague and only? excuse for how they spent money they've mentioned right? You can hire contractors for less than a days work so if they say "we spent some money for contractors it could literally mean they hired ONE contractor for ONE day or two contractors for less than a day.

You're actually speculating about contractors in the wrong direction.

Hiring contractors to work for a long time as almost indistinguishable from employees is actually quite common. It gets around all kinds of employer / employee obligations.

I'd be more interested to know just how many of the people actually working on this game are "employees" who apparently draw no salary vs. contractors who ARE paid.

My guess is that there are probably more contractors than employees.

Yet the claim I made isn't false and you know that but for some reason you try to discredit it with this statement...

"You're actually speculating about contractors in the wrong direction."

How can I be speculating about contractors in the "wrong direction" when what I said is 100% true which is a contractor can be hired for HOURS, be paid for that time and also make their statement true which is... "we paid contractors".

"My guess is that there are probably more contractors than employees."

How would you or anyone besides them know this? they haven't said anything of the sort and if we're following Slapshot's rules then "they didn't say" should apply to this too, right? or are we picking and choosing now according to what point we want to prove at different times? You are guessing the same as me but for some reason guessing the 'wrong things' makes people valiantly come to the defense of this game while those same people go against other crowdfund games even at this very moment with basically the same information... go to the Dreamworld and CoE threads to have a look...

IF there are actually more contractors than employees like you suggest then why would they not just come out and say... "Most of the backer money was used to pay contractors". I can tell you why... because when you pay contractors there is a physical/visual trail then people can ask "oh yeah, who?"

I know because I worked as a contractor for a little over a year once and had to provide my personal information to them.

I said this in a previous post but feel like I need to repeat it again cause people are now 'picking sides' in something where the 'sides' should really not have to be 'picked'...

Read this then 'pick your side'...

Crowdfund developer collects money from unsuspecting gamers for over 5 years and makes only minimal improvements to the "game" which is basically just a tech/game demo that is only up for 1-2 hours each week. "Developer" and everyone at the company with ZERO previous game development experience promises a beta or release date of 2017 but doesn't deliver. Founder, CEO, CFO leaves the company in 2020...

Also worth mentioning that for their tech/game demo they had...

$10,000 pre-order pledge where any average person could be named as "Executive Producer"

A "referral program" for their tech demo that was based on HOW MUCH MONEY YOU SPEND...

"There is different perks and differents rewards depending of the money invested. A new account system had been created with a referal program and this can be seen on the website. Saga of Lucimia is also planning to allow guild pre-order with interesting and exciting Guild perks. T-shirt, Artwork print, and textile map are avalaible in the store"

A "guild pre-order" for more money with "perks" whatever that means for a tech/game demo.

And sold merchandise for a tech/game demo...

They continued to sell things listed above for YEARS after the missed beta/release deadline of 2017 and ONLY stopped sales on their site A FEW DAYS AGO.

After reading those FACTS about the game pick your side and if it's the side of the developer who collected free money from unawares gamers JUST LIKE Dreamworld JUST DID except over a much longer period of time and for much more money then...

I wasn't picking sides lol. I'm simply saying that the notion that they didn't pay themselves while working on this may in fact be misleading since contractors do get paid and sometimes the contracts can be very long or auto-renewed so those contractors (especially if they're "dependent contractors" as in a contractor with only one contract) could very well be the bulk of the workforce while still being able to give the impression that it's an unpaid labor of love because the owners and "employees" weren't drawing a salary.


If anything this kind of supports your opinion that there was something nefarious going on.

BruceYee

Iselin said:

I wasn't picking sides lol. I'm simply saying that the notion that they didn't pay themselves while working on this may in fact be misleading since contractors do get paid and sometimes the contracts can be very long or auto-renewed so those contractors (especially if they're "dependent contractors" as in a contractor with only one contract) could very well be the bulk of the workforce while still being able to give the impression that it's an unpaid labor of love because the owners and "employees" weren't drawing a salary.


If anything this kind of supports your opinion that there was something nefarious going on.

The picking sides part was @Scot

Slapshot1188

Mars_OMG said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Mars_OMG said:

calling someone a shill, is an opinion. Logic 101 . The word shill is subjective, and can be used as noun or adjective. Skimming through this thread, it's insanity !

That would actually be incorrect.  Saying “I think you are being a shill” is an opinion. Saying “Mars is a shill” is a statement of fact.  Furthermore, shill is a noun or a verb as far as I know.  Not an adjective. 

Please don’t botch simple concepts if you want to call out Logic101. 

if you where in court and being sued for saying shill, you would automatically say it's and adjective.  "Mars" is the noun because it is the subject, Shill is an adjective because it is describing "Mars a" . English 101 .  

That’s not how English works... at all.   I honestly hope you don’t think that’s English 101...

Slapshot1188

Iselin said:

BruceYee said:

Iselin said:

BruceYee said:

1. Contractors to do work or are the employees at the company doing work?? You do know "hiring contractors" is the most vague and only? excuse for how they spent money they've mentioned right? You can hire contractors for less than a days work so if they say "we spent some money for contractors it could literally mean they hired ONE contractor for ONE day or two contractors for less than a day.

You're actually speculating about contractors in the wrong direction.

Hiring contractors to work for a long time as almost indistinguishable from employees is actually quite common. It gets around all kinds of employer / employee obligations.

I'd be more interested to know just how many of the people actually working on this game are "employees" who apparently draw no salary vs. contractors who ARE paid.

My guess is that there are probably more contractors than employees.

Yet the claim I made isn't false and you know that but for some reason you try to discredit it with this statement...

"You're actually speculating about contractors in the wrong direction."

How can I be speculating about contractors in the "wrong direction" when what I said is 100% true which is a contractor can be hired for HOURS, be paid for that time and also make their statement true which is... "we paid contractors".

"My guess is that there are probably more contractors than employees."

How would you or anyone besides them know this? they haven't said anything of the sort and if we're following Slapshot's rules then "they didn't say" should apply to this too, right? or are we picking and choosing now according to what point we want to prove at different times? You are guessing the same as me but for some reason guessing the 'wrong things' makes people valiantly come to the defense of this game while those same people go against other crowdfund games even at this very moment with basically the same information... go to the Dreamworld and CoE threads to have a look...

IF there are actually more contractors than employees like you suggest then why would they not just come out and say... "Most of the backer money was used to pay contractors". I can tell you why... because when you pay contractors there is a physical/visual trail then people can ask "oh yeah, who?"

I know because I worked as a contractor for a little over a year once and had to provide my personal information to them.

I said this in a previous post but feel like I need to repeat it again cause people are now 'picking sides' in something where the 'sides' should really not have to be 'picked'...

Read this then 'pick your side'...

Crowdfund developer collects money from unsuspecting gamers for over 5 years and makes only minimal improvements to the "game" which is basically just a tech/game demo that is only up for 1-2 hours each week. "Developer" and everyone at the company with ZERO previous game development experience promises a beta or release date of 2017 but doesn't deliver. Founder, CEO, CFO leaves the company in 2020...

Also worth mentioning that for their tech/game demo they had...

$10,000 pre-order pledge where any average person could be named as "Executive Producer"

A "referral program" for their tech demo that was based on HOW MUCH MONEY YOU SPEND...

"There is different perks and differents rewards depending of the money invested. A new account system had been created with a referal program and this can be seen on the website. Saga of Lucimia is also planning to allow guild pre-order with interesting and exciting Guild perks. T-shirt, Artwork print, and textile map are avalaible in the store"

A "guild pre-order" for more money with "perks" whatever that means for a tech/game demo.

And sold merchandise for a tech/game demo...

They continued to sell things listed above for YEARS after the missed beta/release deadline of 2017 and ONLY stopped sales on their site A FEW DAYS AGO.

After reading those FACTS about the game pick your side and if it's the side of the developer who collected free money from unawares gamers JUST LIKE Dreamworld JUST DID except over a much longer period of time and for much more money then...

I wasn't picking sides lol. I'm simply saying that the notion that they didn't pay themselves while working on this may in fact be misleading since contractors do get paid and sometimes the contracts can be very long or auto-renewed so those contractors (especially if they're "dependent contractors" as in a contractor with only one contract) could very well be the bulk of the workforce while still being able to give the impression that it's an unpaid labor of love because the owners and "employees" weren't drawing a salary.


If anything this kind of supports your opinion that there was something nefarious going on.

And if it turns out that any of the “sweat equity” owners were in fact paying themselves as contractors Id be right next to the pitchfork crew.  I’m just not ready to say they did so without some indication that they lied.

borghive49

Slapshot1188 said:

Mars_OMG said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Mars_OMG said:

calling someone a shill, is an opinion. Logic 101 . The word shill is subjective, and can be used as noun or adjective. Skimming through this thread, it's insanity !

That would actually be incorrect.  Saying “I think you are being a shill” is an opinion. Saying “Mars is a shill” is a statement of fact.  Furthermore, shill is a noun or a verb as far as I know.  Not an adjective. 

Please don’t botch simple concepts if you want to call out Logic101. 

if you where in court and being sued for saying shill, you would automatically say it's and adjective.  "Mars" is the noun because it is the subject, Shill is an adjective because it is describing "Mars a" . English 101 .  

That’s not how English works... at all.   I honestly hope you don’t think that’s English 101...

Damn guy, you still here wasting your life on a dead forum arguing with people over mundane stuff? 

Slapshot1188

borghive49 said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Mars_OMG said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Mars_OMG said:

calling someone a shill, is an opinion. Logic 101 . The word shill is subjective, and can be used as noun or adjective. Skimming through this thread, it's insanity !

That would actually be incorrect.  Saying “I think you are being a shill” is an opinion. Saying “Mars is a shill” is a statement of fact.  Furthermore, shill is a noun or a verb as far as I know.  Not an adjective. 

Please don’t botch simple concepts if you want to call out Logic101. 

if you where in court and being sued for saying shill, you would automatically say it's and adjective.  "Mars" is the noun because it is the subject, Shill is an adjective because it is describing "Mars a" . English 101 .  

That’s not how English works... at all.   I honestly hope you don’t think that’s English 101...

Damn guy, you still here wasting your life on a dead forum arguing with people over mundane stuff? 

Pot meet Kettle?

Scot

So many posts on this thread I just don't have time to read them all, has anyone killed someone else yet?  

Scot

BruceYee said:

Iselin said:

I wasn't picking sides lol. I'm simply saying that the notion that they didn't pay themselves while working on this may in fact be misleading since contractors do get paid and sometimes the contracts can be very long or auto-renewed so those contractors (especially if they're "dependent contractors" as in a contractor with only one contract) could very well be the bulk of the workforce while still being able to give the impression that it's an unpaid labor of love because the owners and "employees" weren't drawing a salary.


If anything this kind of supports your opinion that there was something nefarious going on.

The picking sides part was @Scot

Was it? I must admit I thought I was sitting on the fence until we get some evidence, but yes this thread is pushing posters to take a side.

borghive49

Slapshot1188 said:

borghive49 said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Mars_OMG said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Mars_OMG said:

calling someone a shill, is an opinion. Logic 101 . The word shill is subjective, and can be used as noun or adjective. Skimming through this thread, it's insanity !

That would actually be incorrect.  Saying “I think you are being a shill” is an opinion. Saying “Mars is a shill” is a statement of fact.  Furthermore, shill is a noun or a verb as far as I know.  Not an adjective. 

Please don’t botch simple concepts if you want to call out Logic101. 

if you where in court and being sued for saying shill, you would automatically say it's and adjective.  "Mars" is the noun because it is the subject, Shill is an adjective because it is describing "Mars a" . English 101 .  

That’s not how English works... at all.   I honestly hope you don’t think that’s English 101...

Damn guy, you still here wasting your life on a dead forum arguing with people over mundane stuff? 

Pot meet Kettle?

WE joined this forum roughly at the same time. You have 13k posts and I have 460. *shrugs* 

Slapshot1188

borghive49 said:

Slapshot1188 said:

borghive49 said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Mars_OMG said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Mars_OMG said:

calling someone a shill, is an opinion. Logic 101 . The word shill is subjective, and can be used as noun or adjective. Skimming through this thread, it's insanity !

That would actually be incorrect.  Saying “I think you are being a shill” is an opinion. Saying “Mars is a shill” is a statement of fact.  Furthermore, shill is a noun or a verb as far as I know.  Not an adjective. 

Please don’t botch simple concepts if you want to call out Logic101. 

if you where in court and being sued for saying shill, you would automatically say it's and adjective.  "Mars" is the noun because it is the subject, Shill is an adjective because it is describing "Mars a" . English 101 .  

That’s not how English works... at all.   I honestly hope you don’t think that’s English 101...

Damn guy, you still here wasting your life on a dead forum arguing with people over mundane stuff? 

Pot meet Kettle?

WE joined this forum roughly at the same time. You have 13k posts and I have 460. *shrugs* 

Yet here you are... on the same, so called “dead forum”, arguing with people over mundane stuff...

borghive49

Slapshot1188 said:

borghive49 said:

Slapshot1188 said:

borghive49 said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Mars_OMG said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Mars_OMG said:

calling someone a shill, is an opinion. Logic 101 . The word shill is subjective, and can be used as noun or adjective. Skimming through this thread, it's insanity !

That would actually be incorrect.  Saying “I think you are being a shill” is an opinion. Saying “Mars is a shill” is a statement of fact.  Furthermore, shill is a noun or a verb as far as I know.  Not an adjective. 

Please don’t botch simple concepts if you want to call out Logic101. 

if you where in court and being sued for saying shill, you would automatically say it's and adjective.  "Mars" is the noun because it is the subject, Shill is an adjective because it is describing "Mars a" . English 101 .  

That’s not how English works... at all.   I honestly hope you don’t think that’s English 101...

Damn guy, you still here wasting your life on a dead forum arguing with people over mundane stuff? 

Pot meet Kettle?

WE joined this forum roughly at the same time. You have 13k posts and I have 460. *shrugs* 

Yet here you are... on the same, so called “dead forum”, arguing with people over mundane stuff...

Meh, you could do better. 

YashaX

Mars_OMG said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Mars_OMG said:

calling someone a shill, is an opinion. Logic 101 . The word shill is subjective, and can be used as noun or adjective. Skimming through this thread, it's insanity !

That would actually be incorrect.  Saying “I think you are being a shill” is an opinion. Saying “Mars is a shill” is a statement of fact.  Furthermore, shill is a noun or a verb as far as I know.  Not an adjective. 

Please don’t botch simple concepts if you want to call out Logic101. 

if you where in court and being sued for saying shill, you would automatically say it's and adjective.  "Mars" is the noun because it is the subject, Shill is an adjective because it is describing "Mars a" . English 101 .  

I think we still need to get to the bottom of this shill issue. I'm on the its a "noun or verb" side of the fence - maybe that was in English 102?

borghive49

YashaX said:

Mars_OMG said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Mars_OMG said:

calling someone a shill, is an opinion. Logic 101 . The word shill is subjective, and can be used as noun or adjective. Skimming through this thread, it's insanity !

That would actually be incorrect.  Saying “I think you are being a shill” is an opinion. Saying “Mars is a shill” is a statement of fact.  Furthermore, shill is a noun or a verb as far as I know.  Not an adjective. 

Please don’t botch simple concepts if you want to call out Logic101. 

if you where in court and being sued for saying shill, you would automatically say it's and adjective.  "Mars" is the noun because it is the subject, Shill is an adjective because it is describing "Mars a" . English 101 .  

I think we still need to get to the bottom of this shill issue. I'm on the its a "noun or verb" side of the fence - maybe that was in English 102?

• shilled; shilling; shills

  Definition of shill

   (Entry 1 of 2)

  intransitive verb

  1: to act as a shill

  2: to act as a spokesperson or promoter the eminent Shakespearean producer … is now shilling for a brokerage house— Andy Rooney

  shill

   noun

  Definition of shill (Entry 2 of 2)

  1a: one who acts as a decoy (as for a pitchman or gambler)

  b: one who makes a sales pitch or serves as a promoter

  2: PITCH sense 8a

Slapshot1188

borghive49 said:

YashaX said:

Mars_OMG said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Mars_OMG said:

calling someone a shill, is an opinion. Logic 101 . The word shill is subjective, and can be used as noun or adjective. Skimming through this thread, it's insanity !

That would actually be incorrect.  Saying “I think you are being a shill” is an opinion. Saying “Mars is a shill” is a statement of fact.  Furthermore, shill is a noun or a verb as far as I know.  Not an adjective. 

Please don’t botch simple concepts if you want to call out Logic101. 

if you where in court and being sued for saying shill, you would automatically say it's and adjective.  "Mars" is the noun because it is the subject, Shill is an adjective because it is describing "Mars a" . English 101 .  

I think we still need to get to the bottom of this shill issue. I'm on the its a "noun or verb" side of the fence - maybe that was in English 102?

• shilled; shilling; shills

  Definition of shill

   (Entry 1 of 2)

  intransitive verb

  1: to act as a shill

  2: to act as a spokesperson or promoter the eminent Shakespearean producer … is now shilling for a brokerage house— Andy Rooney

  shill

   noun

  Definition of shill (Entry 2 of 2)

  1a: one who acts as a decoy (as for a pitchman or gambler)

  b: one who makes a sales pitch or serves as a promoter

  2: PITCH sense 8a

So we agree   Awesome!

mklinic

just trying to catch up, but this is what I've taken away so far:

• We don't know exactly what happened, but we "know" that whatever happened spells D-O-O-M!
• We don't know how finances have been used, but we "know" they've been used in ways we don't like!
• The game is dead, but the game is still in development!

I think the only concrete thing we've got is that (at least, so far) "shill" is a noun or verb though it's debatable what level English class that is taught in.

I've got no skin in the game on this one. I followed the sparse posts over the years and seen plenty of posts where @Renfail advised people to not buy in to the game until they were comfortable with the risks. As a result, I've held off and will continue to take a "wait and see" approach on this one.

Either way: I'm hopeful that those who are invested get a game they enjoy whether it gets rebranded as a new IP or not.

Slapshot1188

mklinic said:

just trying to catch up, but this is what I've taken away so far:

• We don't know exactly what happened, but we "know" that whatever happened spells D-O-O-M!
• We don't know how finances have been used, but we "know" they've been used in ways we don't like!
• The game is dead, but the game is still in development!

I think the only concrete thing we've got is that (at least, so far) "shill" is a noun or verb though it's debatable what level English class that is taught in.

I've got no skin in the game on this one. I followed the sparse posts over the years and seen plenty of posts where @Renfail advised people to not buy in to the game until they were comfortable with the risks. As a result, I've held off and will continue to take a "wait and see" approach on this one.

Either way: I'm hopeful that those who are invested get a game they enjoy whether it gets rebranded as a new IP or not.

Yup, you've got it pretty much nailed.

lahnmir

Slapshot1188 said:

mklinic said:

just trying to catch up, but this is what I've taken away so far:

• We don't know exactly what happened, but we "know" that whatever happened spells D-O-O-M!
• We don't know how finances have been used, but we "know" they've been used in ways we don't like!
• The game is dead, but the game is still in development!

I think the only concrete thing we've got is that (at least, so far) "shill" is a noun or verb though it's debatable what level English class that is taught in.

I've got no skin in the game on this one. I followed the sparse posts over the years and seen plenty of posts where @Renfail advised people to not buy in to the game until they were comfortable with the risks. As a result, I've held off and will continue to take a "wait and see" approach on this one.

Either way: I'm hopeful that those who are invested get a game they enjoy whether it gets rebranded as a new IP or not.

Yup, you've got it pretty much nailed.

Actually you both forgot an integral part of the evil scheme:

- We “know” that the discouraging of spending money on the project, by Renfail on these forums and the statement on their website, was actually a clever use of reverse psychology to trick poor customers.

Their wickedness truly knows no bounds.

/Cheers,
Lahnmir