No surprise that yet another low budget mmorpg with hobby game developers fail. With this one it was just time until it failed, just like with chronicles of elyria and what's turning out to be a bunch of games now.
The reason why I cut renfail some slack is that they avoided to monetizise the shit out of the game, there were no absurd game store during the funding, they just sold the game as it was. He were also honest about it being a passion project done on spare time and it was never going to be more than a game made by hobbyist.
If you honestly think its a scam you need to learn how to curb your enthusiasm for games during development.
Curbing the enthusiasm for games in development is about the best thing anyone can do for their sanity and their wallet. It's okay to be excited about a game once release in 'final' form, but earlier, not so much. It is probably the best way to set yourself up for disappointment. I've seen it a lot in the years I've followed game development. Life is too short to create so much grief for yourself.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Nearly everything that people do is with good intentions. Even most of the bad things that people do are with intentions that are good or at least neutral. Assuming that someone else had evil intentions is nearly always wrong unless you have serious evidence to the contrary. It's far more common for people to be clueless, careless, or incompetent.
It's been 6 months since Tim and his brother left the project, yet Stormhaven Studios is still refusing to talk about the elephant in the room. The company has yet to even announced his the departure. We only learned out about it now from a post made by Tim, 3 months after leaving.
Six months. SIX months of the company's new leadership pretending like things were normal and collecting payments from new pledges. That's messed up.
I still can't wrap my head around it. What could've caused @Renfail 1) to leave the project he founded, and 2) agree to be bound to complete silence??
Having skipped over most of this thread I'll just say that while I have no idea what he's like in person, when he posted on this site he often came across as a bit of a douche
The convo being shifted back to "why Tim left" is the agenda and exactly why he is agreeing with those specific comments and why so many orange names are suddenly finding forgiveness in their hearts when many of those same people refuse to even support a cash shop in games or early access.. How can you be opposed to buying pixels and receiving what you pay for immediately but support something you give money to but you'll never receive? "Why Tim left" is the conversation that is essentially the get away plan. The speculation of why he left can be played on repeat for years by those willing to go along with it.
If the CEO, face of the company, guy who started the company, guy who handles hiring, guy who handles the money has left the company then there is no company left.. saying there's a lawsuit to prevent having to explain anything is exactly what a person who has been lying to everyone for years would do..
Remember that saying "It's okay because they're not asking for money"... well.. they were asking for money, got it, did not provide the product they collected money for and now asking for money again for another project which in case you haven't noticed is why he's back here.. He said himself in a past post that he got a large number of SoL backers from this site... so why not return to the best hunting ground when you are once again going hunting?
Like @Wellspring said if Stormhaven still exists then why did they not announce anything if they actually still exist if they are even a legitimate company.. or why haven't they even stopped by here to assure everyone that everything is still being worked on if it is? Oh, right that pesky lingering lawsuit that prevents speaking about anything related to the game but somehow the site is still able to process new "pre-order" pack transactions.. got it...
Also want to say that this hippy love everyone is good no one is bad bullshit doesn't work when many of those same individuals relentlessly attack people who are just trying to expose a VERY OBVIOUS scam and shield the person blatantly deceiving people. Tim isn't the victim you knuckleheads... the backers who gave him money are... and whether you like it or not that does include DMKano/Remsleep so put your hate for him aside and start seeing this situation for what it is and always has been... a SCAM.
I have not commented on this before, but so many of you are just so gullible for believing he wasn't asking for money.
He even spammed a linked on this site to his of 5 reasons not to give them money... what a mental con.
It's called selling the integrity card, it was so transparent. "No,no, please don't give me money... see we're different, we have tregridy"
Any backers up for some $ poker? 5 reason not to play poker with TwistedSister77...
So wait, you said he posted a link to 5 reason not to give him money, but at the same time you claim he asked people for money? I'm confused.
Can't believe this needs to be explained but it's the same reason why Ashes of Creation said they were "fully funded" yet proceeded with multiple funding 'rounds' over the years. It's to give people the false idea that they don't need your money when in reality it's their main goal.
The convo being shifted back to "why Tim left" is the agenda and exactly why he is agreeing with those specific comments and why so many orange names are suddenly finding forgiveness in their hearts when many of those same people refuse to even support a cash shop in games or early access.. How can you be opposed to buying pixels and receiving what you pay for immediately but support something you give money to but you'll never receive? "Why Tim left" is the conversation that is essentially the get away plan. The speculation of why he left can be played on repeat for years by those willing to go along with it.
If the CEO, face of the company, guy who started the company, guy who handles hiring, guy who handles the money has left the company then there is no company left.. saying there's a lawsuit to prevent having to explain anything is exactly what a person who has been lying to everyone for years would do..
Remember that saying "It's okay because they're not asking for money"... well.. they were asking for money, got it, did not provide the product they collected money for and now asking for money again for another project which in case you haven't noticed is why he's back here.. He said himself in a past post that he got a large number of SoL backers from this site... so why not return to the best hunting ground when you are once again going hunting?
Like @Wellspring said if Stormhaven still exists then why did they not announce anything if they actually still exist if they are even a legitimate company.. or why haven't they even stopped by here to assure everyone that everything is still being worked on if it is? Oh, right that pesky lingering lawsuit that prevents speaking about anything related to the game but somehow the site is still able to process new "pre-order" pack transactions.. got it...
Also want to say that this hippy love everyone is good no one is bad bullshit doesn't work when many of those same individuals relentlessly attack people who are just trying to expose a VERY OBVIOUS scam and shield the person blatantly deceiving people. Tim isn't the victim you knuckleheads... the backers who gave him money are... and whether you like it or not that does include DMKano/Remsleep so put your hate for him aside and start seeing this situation for what it is and always has been... a SCAM.
He has been hunting on these boards for years. I don't know why people keep making excuses for this clown as well? Why the heck would anyone think that some guy with zero coding skills (his words) and zero game development experience be able to build, manage and ship a functioning MMO? MMOs are like the hardest games to build successfully, they could have started off with something a little easier to build, say a single player RPG?
This is why so many of us in the early days were calling BS on this project, even though they tried to spin this narrative that their lack of skills would be somehow made up for with their passion. Hell, I love to be a pro golfer and I have the passion to do so, but you won't see me on the PGA tour because no matter how much I try, I suck at golf lol.
I personally think they used this we lack of experience as a marketing gimmick to trick people into thinking that passion for a project is the secret sauce in making good games lol.
God remember the shit this guy would give people on here? The condescension and snark? Unless you asked him about the former deadlines they blew past by years. He'd ignore that. Turns out he's just another indie MMO developer bullshit artist.
God remember the shit this guy would give people on here? The condescension and snark? Unless you asked him about the former deadlines they blew past by years. He'd ignore that. Turns out he's just another indie MMO developer bullshit artist.
Absolutely. Totally believe that if you are going to Talk the Talk that you better be able to Walk the Walk..
The only thing I disagree with is how some people have taken Tim leaving the company to mean that he committed fraud and paid himself. That is a bizarre tangent that just seems like people making shit up.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
God remember the shit this guy would give people on here? The condescension and snark? Unless you asked him about the former deadlines they blew past by years. He'd ignore that. Turns out he's just another indie MMO developer bullshit artist.
Absolutely. Totally believe that if you are going to Talk the Talk that you better be able to Walk the Walk..
The only thing I disagree with is how some people have taken Tim leaving the company to mean that he committed fraud and paid himself. That is a bizarre tangent that just seems like people making shit up.
I agree, there's no way of knowing if he took money he shouldn't have been entitled to. I do believe, though, that he was a manipulative slimeball.
God remember the shit this guy would give people on here? The condescension and snark? Unless you asked him about the former deadlines they blew past by years. He'd ignore that. Turns out he's just another indie MMO developer bullshit artist.
Absolutely. Totally believe that if you are going to Talk the Talk that you better be able to Walk the Walk..
The only thing I disagree with is how some people have taken Tim leaving the company to mean that he committed fraud and paid himself. That is a bizarre tangent that just seems like people making shit up.
Unity FREE
Assets they used - minimal cost vs money collected
Everyone at the company didn't collect salary - $0 payroll
does not
=
"Hundreds of thousands of dollars"
All I want to know is where the "hundreds of thousands" of dollars went..
God remember the shit this guy would give people on here? The condescension and snark? Unless you asked him about the former deadlines they blew past by years. He'd ignore that. Turns out he's just another indie MMO developer bullshit artist.
Absolutely. Totally believe that if you are going to Talk the Talk that you better be able to Walk the Walk..
The only thing I disagree with is how some people have taken Tim leaving the company to mean that he committed fraud and paid himself. That is a bizarre tangent that just seems like people making shit up.
Unity FREE
Assets they used - minimal cost vs money collected
Everyone at the company didn't collect salary - $0 payroll
does not
=
"Hundreds of thousands of dollars"
All I want to know is where the "hundreds of thousands" of dollars went..
Why aren't you asking the same question?
Maybe they still have it? I don't know if they raised hundreds of thousands... I made the number up for discussion as a what if (as clearly seen in the post you refer to)
Have YOU asked this question on their forum? On their Discord? If so what response did you get? Maybe YOU should go do some work and come back and let us know. I actually DID ask on their Discord this week how much money they raised and they said they were not releasing that publicly. Did you even do that much on your Crusade?
What they have said: Investor money and pre-order sales go straight to our contractors and business expenses.
Think thats wrong? Link me the posts from this week on their forums where you asked that. Or a post from the last year where you asked that. THAT is how this works. Not asking random posters on a 3rd party forum. When I went after Greedmonger I personally and directly challenged them during their big Google Hangout reveal and got them to admit they should close down. When I went after PFO I went directly to Dancey and had him respond. When I went after CoE it was directly to Jeromey who responded directly to me. Heck, even when I called out Stephen Sharriff for his AoC shenanigan's it was directly to him and he directly answered. Hell, even when I criticized SoL it was directly with Tim on these forums and elsewhere and we went at it for all to see.
I made the post pointing out he was MIA in December. The same thread where I revealed his contact a few days ago. You know how many times you posted in that thread in the months between? ZERO. Not once. https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/492308/wherefore-art-thou-renfail/p1 How many threads did you start to discuss your SoL issues? I looked back 5 years on the forum and do not see that you even started a single one. I looked back at the SoL threads for the last year. I saw ZERO posts/replies from you. Not one.
So if SoL is your Crusade... what have you actually done? Nobody even cared about this game until I posted that Tim left the team.
You want me to go fight your battle for you?
Edit to add: You know who DID care about this game? @Delete And sadly he is banned because some people don't know how to use ignore.
Post edited by Slapshot1188 on
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
And, does anyone believe that this game is still under any kind of serious development and has a chance of releasing? Does that actually seem plausible to anyone?
And, does anyone believe that this game is still under any kind of serious development and has a chance of releasing? Does that actually seem plausible to anyone?
Dunno. Kano has said that he has access and has recently played it and its missing "98%" of promised features. It's under NDA so not sure how to prove or disprove that. Seems hyperbolic, but he's seen it...
We should know soon enough I guess because they state they are releasing this year Their website says:
Beta keys will be handed out once we finish Alpha. The current estimation for the start of Beta testing is July 2021.
Buddy codes are handed out at game launch. The current estimation for game launch is Q4 2021.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Maybe they still have it? I don't know if they raised hundreds of thousands... I made the number up for discussion as a what if.
Have YOU asked this question on their forum? On their Discord? If so what response did you get? Maybe YOU should go do some work and come back and let us know. I actually DID ask on their Discord this week how much money they raised and they said they were not releasing that publicly. Did you even do that much on your Crusade?
What they have said: Investor money and pre-order sales go straight to our contractors and business expenses.
Think thats wrong? Link me the posts from this week on their forums where you asked that. Or a post from the last year where you asked that. THAT is how this works. Not asking random posters on a 3rd party forum. When I went after Greedmonger I personally and directly challenged them during their big Google Hangout reveal and got them to admit they should close down. When I went after PFO I went directly to Dancey and had him respond. When I went after CoE it was directly to Jeromey who responded directly to me. Heck, even when I called out Stephen Sharriff for his AoC shenanigan's it was directly to him and he directly answered. Hell, even when I criticized SoL it was directly with Tim on these forums and elsewhere and we went at it for all to see.
So if SoL is your Crusade... what have you actually done? Nobody even cared about this game until I posted that Tim left the team. You want me to go fight your battle for you?
Why does "where did they money go" require such an over the top response like I PP in your cheerios? Until now I thought we were both on the same team trying to figure out what's going on the best we can with the information that has been given not just for this game but for every game. Apparently you're privy to some extra information I don't know about cause what I'm basing my conclusions on is 1+1=2. You seem to have extra numbers to add to that..
I see now you're doing the whole pissing contest thing with "how many developers have you talked to" cause even the most basic questions can't be answered about this game. I did ask him questions on this site and you know that but this is your "crusade" not mine. I just asked some questions and came to some conclusions based on information out there provided by them... Much of that information has now been deleted by them from youtube... very "honest" indeed.
People here keep changing the conversation to either
deflect from the simplest questions being discussed and/or resort to
turning the focus back onto forum posters being the villains in this
story. Last time I checked the people on this forum were the ones giving
this guy money not the other way around.. All of a sudden someone with no history in game development can scam people out of "hundreds of thousands" and people here approve. Anyone who does support that type of behavior really shouldn't complain about cash shops, early access or P2W ever again.
There is no oversight with crowdfunded games and there most likely won't be in the near future. The best we can do as part of greater gaming community is bring awareness to people about projects that seem suspicious based on facts like those that have been presented about this game. I've done so on every platform out there the best I can. We must be our own police force cause the developers and scammer sure as heckfire will not police themselves. Crowdfund companies will not regulate because there is too much to lose for them for various reasons.
Maybe they still have it? I don't know if they raised hundreds of thousands... I made the number up for discussion as a what if.
Have YOU asked this question on their forum? On their Discord? If so what response did you get? Maybe YOU should go do some work and come back and let us know. I actually DID ask on their Discord this week how much money they raised and they said they were not releasing that publicly. Did you even do that much on your Crusade?
What they have said: Investor money and pre-order sales go straight to our contractors and business expenses.
Think thats wrong? Link me the posts from this week on their forums where you asked that. Or a post from the last year where you asked that. THAT is how this works. Not asking random posters on a 3rd party forum. When I went after Greedmonger I personally and directly challenged them during their big Google Hangout reveal and got them to admit they should close down. When I went after PFO I went directly to Dancey and had him respond. When I went after CoE it was directly to Jeromey who responded directly to me. Heck, even when I called out Stephen Sharriff for his AoC shenanigan's it was directly to him and he directly answered. Hell, even when I criticized SoL it was directly with Tim on these forums and elsewhere and we went at it for all to see.
So if SoL is your Crusade... what have you actually done? Nobody even cared about this game until I posted that Tim left the team. You want me to go fight your battle for you?
Why does "where did they money go" require such an over the top response like I PP in your cheerios? Until now I thought we were both on the same team trying to figure out what's going on the best we can with the information that has been given not just for this game but for every game. Apparently you're privy to some extra information I don't know about cause what I'm basing my conclusions on is 1+1=2. You seem to have extra numbers to add to that..
I see now you're doing the whole pissing contest thing with "how many developers have you talked to" cause even the most basic questions can't be answered about this game. I did ask him questions on this site and you know that but this is your "crusade" not mine. I just asked some questions and came to some conclusions based on information out there provided by them... Much of that information has now been deleted by them from youtube... very "honest" indeed.
People here keep changing the conversation to either
deflect from the simplest questions being discussed and/or resort to
turning the focus back onto forum posters being the villains in this
story. Last time I checked the people on this forum were the ones giving
this guy money not the other way around.. All of a sudden someone with no history in game development can scam people out of "hundreds of thousands" and people here approve. Anyone who does support that type of behavior really shouldn't complain about cash shops, early access or P2W ever again.
There is no oversight with crowdfunded games and there most likely won't be in the near future. The best we can do as part of greater gaming community is bring awareness to people about projects that seem suspicious based on facts like those that have been presented about this game. I've done so on every platform out there the best I can. We must be our own police force cause the developers and scammer sure as heckfire will not police themselves. Crowdfund companies will not regulate because there is too much to lose for them for various reasons.
So you did NOTHING.... NOTHING at all except complain that I do not jump on your "They are frauds who lied about using the money for salaries" bandwagon with zero proof.
You said "All I want to know is where the "hundreds of thousands" of dollars went.."
You didn't even ASK them. Not here. Not on their forums. Not on their Discord.
Too much effort?
You want to focus on the above question... then go get some answers and bring it here. Right now your credibility level is... zero
And everytime someone pushes an accusation without proof it diminishes legitimate concerns. THAT is why what you are doing is so dangerous. It allows people to paint critics with a broad brush of “trolls”. Then to make it worse, you claim that if I or others don’t just dive in with your fraud allegation we “support that type of behavior”. That’s ludicrous. Nobody supports that. We just want to see something resembling proof or at least a legitimate effort made to frame your case.
if you have actual proof of malfeasance I think everybody on these forums would applaud and get on board, but right now you are just throwing shit all over. I mean at least ASK them and link their response as a start of discussion.
Post edited by Slapshot1188 on
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Maybe they still have it? I don't know if they raised hundreds of thousands... I made the number up for discussion as a what if.
Have YOU asked this question on their forum? On their Discord? If so what response did you get? Maybe YOU should go do some work and come back and let us know. I actually DID ask on their Discord this week how much money they raised and they said they were not releasing that publicly. Did you even do that much on your Crusade?
What they have said: Investor money and pre-order sales go straight to our contractors and business expenses.
Think thats wrong? Link me the posts from this week on their forums where you asked that. Or a post from the last year where you asked that. THAT is how this works. Not asking random posters on a 3rd party forum. When I went after Greedmonger I personally and directly challenged them during their big Google Hangout reveal and got them to admit they should close down. When I went after PFO I went directly to Dancey and had him respond. When I went after CoE it was directly to Jeromey who responded directly to me. Heck, even when I called out Stephen Sharriff for his AoC shenanigan's it was directly to him and he directly answered. Hell, even when I criticized SoL it was directly with Tim on these forums and elsewhere and we went at it for all to see.
So if SoL is your Crusade... what have you actually done? Nobody even cared about this game until I posted that Tim left the team. You want me to go fight your battle for you?
Why does "where did they money go" require such an over the top response like I PP in your cheerios? Until now I thought we were both on the same team trying to figure out what's going on the best we can with the information that has been given not just for this game but for every game. Apparently you're privy to some extra information I don't know about cause what I'm basing my conclusions on is 1+1=2. You seem to have extra numbers to add to that..
I see now you're doing the whole pissing contest thing with "how many developers have you talked to" cause even the most basic questions can't be answered about this game. I did ask him questions on this site and you know that but this is your "crusade" not mine. I just asked some questions and came to some conclusions based on information out there provided by them... Much of that information has now been deleted by them from youtube... very "honest" indeed.
People here keep changing the conversation to either
deflect from the simplest questions being discussed and/or resort to
turning the focus back onto forum posters being the villains in this
story. Last time I checked the people on this forum were the ones giving
this guy money not the other way around.. All of a sudden someone with no history in game development can scam people out of "hundreds of thousands" and people here approve. Anyone who does support that type of behavior really shouldn't complain about cash shops, early access or P2W ever again.
There is no oversight with crowdfunded games and there most likely won't be in the near future. The best we can do as part of greater gaming community is bring awareness to people about projects that seem suspicious based on facts like those that have been presented about this game. I've done so on every platform out there the best I can. We must be our own police force cause the developers and scammer sure as heckfire will not police themselves. Crowdfund companies will not regulate because there is too much to lose for them for various reasons.
So you did NOTHING.... NOTHING at all except complain that I do not jump on your "They are frauds who lied about using the money for salaries" bandwagon with zero proof.
You said "All I want to know is where the "hundreds of thousands" of dollars went.."
You didn't even ASK them. Not here. Not on their forums. Not on their Discord.
Too much effort?
You want to focus on the above question... then go get some answers and bring it here. Right now your credibility level is... zero
And everytime someone pushes an accusation without proof it diminishes legitimate concerns. THAT is why what you are doing is so dangerous. It allows people to paint critics with a broad brush of “trolls”. Then to make it worse, you claim that if I or others don’t just dive in with your fraud allegation we “support that type of behavior”. That’s ludicrous. Nobody supports that. We just want to see something resembling proof or at least a legitimate effort made to frame your case.
if you have actual proof of malfeasance I think everybody on these forums would applaud and get on board, but right now you are just throwing shit all over. I mean at least ASK them and link their response as a start of discussion.
I could not agree more. Zero effort, maximum faux outrage.
And just to remind everyone, the only thing that has happened was Renfail and brother leaving the company. We know nothing more then that. Guilty, accused and judged until proven innocent it seems and people not immediately jumping to conclusions being called naïeve.
Will SoL make it? Probably not, but I am pretty sure that has little to do with this situation or because its a “scam.”
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Maybe they still have it? I don't know if they raised hundreds of thousands... I made the number up for discussion as a what if.
Have YOU asked this question on their forum? On their Discord? If so what response did you get? Maybe YOU should go do some work and come back and let us know. I actually DID ask on their Discord this week how much money they raised and they said they were not releasing that publicly. Did you even do that much on your Crusade?
What they have said: Investor money and pre-order sales go straight to our contractors and business expenses.
Think thats wrong? Link me the posts from this week on their forums where you asked that. Or a post from the last year where you asked that. THAT is how this works. Not asking random posters on a 3rd party forum. When I went after Greedmonger I personally and directly challenged them during their big Google Hangout reveal and got them to admit they should close down. When I went after PFO I went directly to Dancey and had him respond. When I went after CoE it was directly to Jeromey who responded directly to me. Heck, even when I called out Stephen Sharriff for his AoC shenanigan's it was directly to him and he directly answered. Hell, even when I criticized SoL it was directly with Tim on these forums and elsewhere and we went at it for all to see.
So if SoL is your Crusade... what have you actually done? Nobody even cared about this game until I posted that Tim left the team. You want me to go fight your battle for you?
Why does "where did they money go" require such an over the top response like I PP in your cheerios? Until now I thought we were both on the same team trying to figure out what's going on the best we can with the information that has been given not just for this game but for every game. Apparently you're privy to some extra information I don't know about cause what I'm basing my conclusions on is 1+1=2. You seem to have extra numbers to add to that..
I see now you're doing the whole pissing contest thing with "how many developers have you talked to" cause even the most basic questions can't be answered about this game. I did ask him questions on this site and you know that but this is your "crusade" not mine. I just asked some questions and came to some conclusions based on information out there provided by them... Much of that information has now been deleted by them from youtube... very "honest" indeed.
People here keep changing the conversation to either
deflect from the simplest questions being discussed and/or resort to
turning the focus back onto forum posters being the villains in this
story. Last time I checked the people on this forum were the ones giving
this guy money not the other way around.. All of a sudden someone with no history in game development can scam people out of "hundreds of thousands" and people here approve. Anyone who does support that type of behavior really shouldn't complain about cash shops, early access or P2W ever again.
There is no oversight with crowdfunded games and there most likely won't be in the near future. The best we can do as part of greater gaming community is bring awareness to people about projects that seem suspicious based on facts like those that have been presented about this game. I've done so on every platform out there the best I can. We must be our own police force cause the developers and scammer sure as heckfire will not police themselves. Crowdfund companies will not regulate because there is too much to lose for them for various reasons.
So you did NOTHING.... NOTHING at all except complain that I do not jump on your "They are frauds who lied about using the money for salaries" bandwagon with zero proof.
You said "All I want to know is where the "hundreds of thousands" of dollars went.."
You didn't even ASK them. Not here. Not on their forums. Not on their Discord.
Too much effort?
You want to focus on the above question... then go get some answers and bring it here. Right now your credibility level is... zero
And everytime someone pushes an accusation without proof it diminishes legitimate concerns. THAT is why what you are doing is so dangerous. It allows people to paint critics with a broad brush of “trolls”. Then to make it worse, you claim that if I or others don’t just dive in with your fraud allegation we “support that type of behavior”. That’s ludicrous. Nobody supports that. We just want to see something resembling proof or at least a legitimate effort made to frame your case.
if you have actual proof of malfeasance I think everybody on these forums would applaud and get on board, but right now you are just throwing shit all over. I mean at least ASK them and link their response as a start of discussion.
I could not agree more. Zero effort, maximum faux outrage.
And just to remind everyone, the only thing that has happened was Renfail and brother leaving the company. We know nothing more then that. Guilty, accused and judged until proven innocent it seems and people not immediately jumping to conclusions being called naïeve.
Will SoL make it? Probably not, but I am pretty sure that has little to do with this situation or because its a “scam.”
/Cheers, Lahnmir
Exactly. I mean, none of these guys would even KNOW that he left if I hadn't started asking in December and finally gotten an answer. Now they are all up in arms...
And if it turns out that Tim DID take the money he said he wouldn't touch then shame on him but at least ASK the guy before you start shooting this stuff off...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
So you did NOTHING.... NOTHING at all except complain that I do not jump on your "They are frauds who lied about using the money for salaries" bandwagon with zero proof.
You said "All I want to know is where the "hundreds of thousands" of dollars went.."
You didn't even ASK them. Not here. Not on their forums. Not on their Discord.
Too much effort?
You want to focus on the above question... then go get some answers and bring it here. Right now your credibility level is... zero
And everytime someone pushes an accusation without proof it diminishes legitimate concerns. THAT is why what you are doing is so dangerous. It allows people to paint critics with a broad brush of “trolls”.
if you have actual proof of malfeasance I think everybody on these forums would applaud and get on board, but right now you are just throwing shit all over. I mean at least ASK them and link their response as a start of discussion.
My response to your response is your response. Insults are the last line of defense.
You conveniently overlook points I made in both threads about this game time and again...
Asking me to prove things about their personal finances that can't be proven. Ignoring/overlooking things even you've said about the developers receiving $0 pay, how Unity is free, then trying to make everything about me rather than the scammers asking for money from people here both in the past AND currently...
"THAT is why what you are doing is so dangerous. It allows people to paint critics with a broad brush of “trolls”.
Yes, me asking questions is very "dangerous"..
From the post history from past SoL threads on this site ANYONE who tried to ask Tim any questions HE called a troll. Any person asking him game development questions who actually have game development knowledge was being called a troll by someone with no game development history at all..
I guess no one should ever ask questions about any crowdfunded game ever again because it's "dangerous".. That would be very convenient for every single scamstarter that comes along in the future..
The level of cover you're providing is what is actually "dangerous" because real people will end up losing real money not just with this game but with others.
So you did NOTHING.... NOTHING at all except complain that I do not jump on your "They are frauds who lied about using the money for salaries" bandwagon with zero proof.
You said "All I want to know is where the "hundreds of thousands" of dollars went.."
You didn't even ASK them. Not here. Not on their forums. Not on their Discord.
Too much effort?
You want to focus on the above question... then go get some answers and bring it here. Right now your credibility level is... zero
And everytime someone pushes an accusation without proof it diminishes legitimate concerns. THAT is why what you are doing is so dangerous. It allows people to paint critics with a broad brush of “trolls”.
if you have actual proof of malfeasance I think everybody on these forums would applaud and get on board, but right now you are just throwing shit all over. I mean at least ASK them and link their response as a start of discussion.
My response to your response is your response. Insults are the last line of defense.
You conveniently overlook points I made in both threads about this game time and again...
Asking me to prove things about their personal finances that can't be proven. Ignoring/overlooking things even you've said about the developers receiving $0 pay, how Unity is free, then trying to make everything about me rather than the scammers asking for money from people here both in the past AND currently...
"THAT is why what you are doing is so dangerous. It allows people to paint critics with a broad brush of “trolls”.
Yes, me asking questions is very "dangerous"..
From the post history from past SoL threads on this site ANYONE who tried to ask Tim any questions HE called a troll. Any person asking him game development questions who actually have game development knowledge was being called a troll by someone with no game development history at all..
I guess no one should ever ask questions about any crowdfunded game ever again because it's "dangerous".. That would be very convenient for every single scamstarter that comes along in the future..
The level of cover you're providing is what is actually "dangerous" because real people will end up losing real money not just with this game but with others.
Asking questions = good Asking suggestive questions because you have already taken a stance and just want to paint a certain picture = bad
It isn’t hard guys..
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
So you did NOTHING.... NOTHING at all except complain that I do not jump on your "They are frauds who lied about using the money for salaries" bandwagon with zero proof.
You said "All I want to know is where the "hundreds of thousands" of dollars went.."
You didn't even ASK them. Not here. Not on their forums. Not on their Discord.
Too much effort?
You want to focus on the above question... then go get some answers and bring it here. Right now your credibility level is... zero
And everytime someone pushes an accusation without proof it diminishes legitimate concerns. THAT is why what you are doing is so dangerous. It allows people to paint critics with a broad brush of “trolls”.
if you have actual proof of malfeasance I think everybody on these forums would applaud and get on board, but right now you are just throwing shit all over. I mean at least ASK them and link their response as a start of discussion.
My response to your response is your response. Insults are the last line of defense.
You conveniently overlook points I made in both threads about this game time and again...
Asking me to prove things about their personal finances that can't be proven. Ignoring/overlooking things even you've said about the developers receiving $0 pay, how Unity is free, then trying to make everything about me rather than the scammers asking for money from people here both in the past AND currently...
"THAT is why what you are doing is so dangerous. It allows people to paint critics with a broad brush of “trolls”.
Yes, me asking questions is very "dangerous"..
From the post history from past SoL threads on this site ANYONE who tried to ask Tim any questions HE called a troll. Any person asking him game development questions who actually have game development knowledge was being called a troll by someone with no game development history at all..
I guess no one should ever ask questions about any crowdfunded game ever again because it's "dangerous".. That would be very convenient for every single scamstarter that comes along in the future..
The level of cover you're providing is what is actually "dangerous" because real people will end up losing real money not just with this game but with others.
Asking questions = good Asking suggestive questions because you have already taken a stance and just want to paint a certain picture = bad
It isn’t hard guys..
/Cheers, Lahnmir
There's a good reason why leading questions or speculation are not permitted in courtrooms as they influence the jury to come to conclusions which have little to no basis in the known facts.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Just seen that Tim and his brother still own the company making SoL, so even though he has stepped away that does raise more question marks for me. On the basis of that I have to shift to the 'be wary of anything he now produces' side of this, moving onto new projects while others are unfinished while still owning the unfinished project smacks of wanting to have your cake and eat it.
I think its commendable that once you have 100% definitive proof that the company is scamming someone, then I suppose you will jump on the bandwagon and call them for what they are doing. I don't think that's very useful thou, because by the time you have 100% certainty then pretty much everyone will already know also, so there is no prevention.
I think people who were able to use skillful insight and intuitiveness to call these people out early on, when the information is still useful to help people realize the truth so they are not scammed. This is hard to do, and requires people to go out on a limb. But you have to respect when they turn out to be right.
Preventing something from breaking is much harder than just agreeing after its confirmed broke. Being able to predict something before its broke is way more useful. Being able to say something is broke, after everyone else has already confirmed its broke, ya that's just a no brainer, not particularly useful to me.
So you did NOTHING.... NOTHING at all except complain that I do not jump on your "They are frauds who lied about using the money for salaries" bandwagon with zero proof.
You said "All I want to know is where the "hundreds of thousands" of dollars went.."
You didn't even ASK them. Not here. Not on their forums. Not on their Discord.
Too much effort?
You want to focus on the above question... then go get some answers and bring it here. Right now your credibility level is... zero
And everytime someone pushes an accusation without proof it diminishes legitimate concerns. THAT is why what you are doing is so dangerous. It allows people to paint critics with a broad brush of “trolls”.
if you have actual proof of malfeasance I think everybody on these forums would applaud and get on board, but right now you are just throwing shit all over. I mean at least ASK them and link their response as a start of discussion.
My response to your response is your response. Insults are the last line of defense.
You conveniently overlook points I made in both threads about this game time and again...
Asking me to prove things about their personal finances that can't be proven. Ignoring/overlooking things even you've said about the developers receiving $0 pay, how Unity is free, then trying to make everything about me rather than the scammers asking for money from people here both in the past AND currently...
"THAT is why what you are doing is so dangerous. It allows people to paint critics with a broad brush of “trolls”.
Yes, me asking questions is very "dangerous"..
From the post history from past SoL threads on this site ANYONE who tried to ask Tim any questions HE called a troll. Any person asking him game development questions who actually have game development knowledge was being called a troll by someone with no game development history at all..
I guess no one should ever ask questions about any crowdfunded game ever again because it's "dangerous".. That would be very convenient for every single scamstarter that comes along in the future..
The level of cover you're providing is what is actually "dangerous" because real people will end up losing real money not just with this game but with others.
Asking questions = good Asking suggestive questions because you have already taken a stance and just want to paint a certain picture = bad
It isn’t hard guys..
/Cheers, Lahnmir
There's a good reason why leading questions or speculation are not permitted in courtrooms as they influence the jury to come to conclusions which have little to no basis in the known facts.
First this isn't a court of law. 2nd in most countries they don't want anyone who is innocent to be found guilty, under that standard 99% of guilty can potentially go free.
So you are content with massive scamming just because you don't want a person to voice an opinion on a forum that someone looks to be deceptive and potentially warn victims?
I suppose you don't believe in early warning systems much do ya?
Comments
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
He even spammed a linked on this site to his of 5 reasons not to give them money... what a mental con.
It's called selling the integrity card, it was so transparent. "No,no, please don't give me money... see we're different, we have tregridy"
Any backers up for some $ poker? 5 reason not to play poker with TwistedSister77...
Can't believe this needs to be explained but it's the same reason why Ashes of Creation said they were "fully funded" yet proceeded with multiple funding 'rounds' over the years. It's to give people the false idea that they don't need your money when in reality it's their main goal.
This is why so many of us in the early days were calling BS on this project, even though they tried to spin this narrative that their lack of skills would be somehow made up for with their passion. Hell, I love to be a pro golfer and I have the passion to do so, but you won't see me on the PGA tour because no matter how much I try, I suck at golf lol.
I personally think they used this we lack of experience as a marketing gimmick to trick people into thinking that passion for a project is the secret sauce in making good games lol.
The only thing I disagree with is how some people have taken Tim leaving the company to mean that he committed fraud and paid himself. That is a bizarre tangent that just seems like people making shit up.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I don't know if they raised hundreds of thousands... I made the number up for discussion as a what if (as clearly seen in the post you refer to)
Have YOU asked this question on their forum? On their Discord? If so what response did you get? Maybe YOU should go do some work and come back and let us know. I actually DID ask on their Discord this week how much money they raised and they said they were not releasing that publicly. Did you even do that much on your Crusade?
What they have said: Investor money and pre-order sales go straight to our contractors and business expenses.
Think thats wrong? Link me the posts from this week on their forums where you asked that. Or a post from the last year where you asked that. THAT is how this works. Not asking random posters on a 3rd party forum. When I went after Greedmonger I personally and directly challenged them during their big Google Hangout reveal and got them to admit they should close down. When I went after PFO I went directly to Dancey and had him respond. When I went after CoE it was directly to Jeromey who responded directly to me. Heck, even when I called out Stephen Sharriff for his AoC shenanigan's it was directly to him and he directly answered. Hell, even when I criticized SoL it was directly with Tim on these forums and elsewhere and we went at it for all to see.
I made the post pointing out he was MIA in December. The same thread where I revealed his contact a few days ago. You know how many times you posted in that thread in the months between? ZERO. Not once.
https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/492308/wherefore-art-thou-renfail/p1
How many threads did you start to discuss your SoL issues? I looked back 5 years on the forum and do not see that you even started a single one. I looked back at the SoL threads for the last year. I saw ZERO posts/replies from you. Not one.
So if SoL is your Crusade... what have you actually done? Nobody even cared about this game until I posted that Tim left the team.
You want me to go fight your battle for you?
Edit to add: You know who DID care about this game? @Delete And sadly he is banned because some people don't know how to use ignore.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
We should know soon enough I guess because they state they are releasing this year
Their website says:
Beta keys will be handed out once we finish Alpha. The current estimation for the start of Beta testing is July 2021.
Buddy codes are handed out at game launch. The current estimation for game launch is Q4 2021.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
You said "All I want to know is where the "hundreds of thousands" of dollars went.."
You didn't even ASK them. Not here. Not on their forums. Not on their Discord.
Too much effort?
You want to focus on the above question... then go get some answers and bring it here. Right now your credibility level is... zero
And everytime someone pushes an accusation without proof it diminishes legitimate concerns. THAT is why what you are doing is so dangerous. It allows people to paint critics with a broad brush of “trolls”. Then to make it worse, you claim that if I or others don’t just dive in with your fraud allegation we “support that type of behavior”. That’s ludicrous. Nobody supports that. We just want to see something resembling proof or at least a legitimate effort made to frame your case.
if you have actual proof of malfeasance I think everybody on these forums would applaud and get on board, but right now you are just throwing shit all over. I mean at least ASK them and link their response as a start of discussion.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
And just to remind everyone, the only thing that has happened was Renfail and brother leaving the company. We know nothing more then that. Guilty, accused and judged until proven innocent it seems and people not immediately jumping to conclusions being called naïeve.
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
And if it turns out that Tim DID take the money he said he wouldn't touch then shame on him but at least ASK the guy before you start shooting this stuff off...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Asking suggestive questions because you have already taken a stance and just want to paint a certain picture = bad
It isn’t hard guys..
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I don't think that's very useful thou, because by the time you have 100% certainty then pretty much everyone will already know also, so there is no prevention.
I think people who were able to use skillful insight and intuitiveness to call these people out early on, when the information is still useful to help people realize the truth so they are not scammed. This is hard to do, and requires people to go out on a limb. But you have to respect when they turn out to be right.
Preventing something from breaking is much harder than just agreeing after its confirmed broke. Being able to predict something before its broke is way more useful. Being able to say something is broke, after everyone else has already confirmed its broke, ya that's just a no brainer, not particularly useful to me.
So you are content with massive scamming just because you don't want a person to voice an opinion on a forum that someone looks to be deceptive and potentially warn victims?
I suppose you don't believe in early warning systems much do ya?