You are trying to protect an innocent developer from harm, but what about all these innocent backers, do they deserve any protections?
Backers are not innocent, they knew the risks. They just refuse to own up to it. That makes them irresponsible.
Well see I don't really agree with you here. This is exactly what allows scammers to profit. People prey on others that are not fully knowledgeable. I believe that if all these backers knew what they know now, very few would have given these games money at all. This implies they were not aware of the level of risk.
This is why so many industries have consumer protection or things like lemon laws, to protect consumers who are not spending every waking minute like a lawyer reading all the fine print of everything, trying to be an expert in every single industry.
Most of these backers were looking at this like they wanted to preorder the game and help FastTrack the game to completion.
I preordered New World on steam, luckily steam has a return policy. Kickstarter doesn't have this policy, unfortunately hindsight is 20/20. Now that I'm more aware I wont use Kickstarter again.
Even if you go with the fact the backer should have been aware. That's like saying people should be aware not to walk alone at night on a street. Does this give someone the right to take advantage? Backers should be given larger protections.
These backers are not getting the risk reward like an investor, they are not getting company assets, or shares, or profit. What's funny is contract law gives the investor more rights than a backer, that's the joke.
In this case... what more could the backers have needed to know?
Company said nobody ever shipped a game before Company said they were working on this part-time while keeping their day jobs.
I mean... I’m just being 100% honest here... Any adult that saw that IMHO had all the info they needed to know where this was heading.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
...This is exactly what allows scammers to profit. ... Does this give someone the right to take advantage? Backers should be given larger protections.
I see this as two separate issues.
On one hand I would like to see more regulation especially on the side of transparency (i.e. expense reports), just like there are laws and rules to prevent illegal activities for other things. So I agree with you on your above quotes. Although that has its own downsides and will be a fine weapon for irrational mobs with pitchforks and trolls.
On the other hand that still does not absolve backers of their responsibility. People that cry scam in this thread for example use arguments that they could have used before backing the project. So why did they back it? I do not see this as hindsight but more as lacking responsibility.
I like this idea, where any company that received CF funds, should be required to produce quarterly spending fiscal reports, including direct income reports, and spending reports.
I think that would go a long way in curbing the scam artist.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
There was a company not too long ago where the main developer got caught spending KS money on a house payment....I am pretty sure it was not this game though.
God remember the shit this guy would give people on here? The condescension and snark? Unless you asked him about the former deadlines they blew past by years. He'd ignore that. Turns out he's just another indie MMO developer bullshit artist.
Absolutely. Totally believe that if you are going to Talk the Talk that you better be able to Walk the Walk..
The only thing I disagree with is how some people have taken Tim leaving the company to mean that he committed fraud and paid himself. That is a bizarre tangent that just seems like people making shit up.
I really don't understand this. How is it fraud if they took the money from crowdfunding to pay themselves? I thought crowdfunding was basically unregulated so they could do what they want with the cash, and recompensating yourself for working on the crowdfunding project seems logical right - why else ask for the money?
God remember the shit this guy would give people on here? The condescension and snark? Unless you asked him about the former deadlines they blew past by years. He'd ignore that. Turns out he's just another indie MMO developer bullshit artist.
Absolutely. Totally believe that if you are going to Talk the Talk that you better be able to Walk the Walk..
The only thing I disagree with is how some people have taken Tim leaving the company to mean that he committed fraud and paid himself. That is a bizarre tangent that just seems like people making shit up.
I really don't understand this. How is it fraud if they took the money from crowdfunding to pay themselves? I thought crowdfunding was basically unregulated so they could do what they want with the cash, and recompensating yourself for working on the crowdfunding project seems logical right - why else ask for the money?
Not if you consciously post to prospective customers that you will not use that money to pay yourself a salary and then do so.
Not paying themselves means that they are actually motivated to complete the game and that any delays hurt them more than us.
If they said they wouldn't pay themselves a salary and then did so... IMHO that is fraud. But importantly there is NO INDICATION that they have done so. Just people saying that since Tim left it somehow means he was taking money...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
God remember the shit this guy would give people on here? The condescension and snark? Unless you asked him about the former deadlines they blew past by years. He'd ignore that. Turns out he's just another indie MMO developer bullshit artist.
Absolutely. Totally believe that if you are going to Talk the Talk that you better be able to Walk the Walk..
The only thing I disagree with is how some people have taken Tim leaving the company to mean that he committed fraud and paid himself. That is a bizarre tangent that just seems like people making shit up.
I really don't understand this. How is it fraud if they took the money from crowdfunding to pay themselves? I thought crowdfunding was basically unregulated so they could do what they want with the cash, and recompensating yourself for working on the crowdfunding project seems logical right - why else ask for the money?
Not if you consciously post to prospective customers that you will not use that money to pay yourself a salary and then do so.
Not paying themselves means that they are actually motivated to complete the game and that any delays hurt them more than us.
If they said they wouldn't pay themselves a salary and then did so... IMHO that is fraud. But importantly there is NO INDICATION that they have done so. Just people saying that since Tim left it somehow means he was taking money...
"If they said they wouldn't pay themselves a salary and then did so... IMHO that is fraud" - surely just lying and deceptive behaviour, pretty sure fraud has more legal connotations.
At any rate, unless they reveal their accounts to prove otherwise I would automatically assume that they in some way used the money from crowdfunding to enrich themselves. It may not necessarily be a "salary" - could be new computers or other assets that may or may not be connected to the project, or any of a multitude of other ways of passing money around.
Like you said before though, this is kind of small fry compared to the shenanigans pulled by CoE and the like. I don't have much sympathy for the drubbing Renfail is getting here though, he was more than a bit of a nub on these forums.
I'm not advocating for SoL but what scam?
They only sold the game/access to the alpha for a short period of time right?
Maybe I dont have the mind of a scammer but wouldnt a scam rather try to sell as much as possible?
No because they want to repeat the scam over and over again - through another kickstarter (that will also fail) and then another one etc...
it's a steady stream of income - for free - people just give their money freely, and there are no regulations that money is being used for the project or that any effort (than minimal one to show that something is being done) is needed. So after a time of just basically doing enough to make a tech-demo - you can pocket all the rest of the money and say the project failed.
then you rinse and repeat - start another kickstarter etc...
On the other hand if you went for a super hard scam where you are selling everything to max - you would piss off people too much and they wouldn' give you money in the next kickstarter - so scamming to max extent - backfires and you get blacklisted - but doing a low/moderate scam to where you can pass it off as "we tried hard but didn't work out" - and people believe you - you can keep that going forever.
Just look at the number of posters in this thread who will pass of any kickstarter failure as "totally fine and expected" - without taking into account that this is just taking someone's word (someone who already has the money and doesn't have to give it back, nor do they have to use the money to finish the project mind you) - can say "we failed" and all is forgiven.
I mean who would have thought that setting up a platform where - anyone without any experience can pitch an idea, ask for money donations for their idea, then they don't have to show at all what work or effort is being put into the project or how the money is being used, and can litterally show of existing assets based game - like unity assets - where they spent maybe 50 hours of work - and then they can just sit on the project for years - never working on it, collecting more money - and then can just say "we failed, sorry" - keep all the money and in reality all they ever did was 50 hours of work.
But all the above is 100% fine - because they said that they tried and failed, it's ok - see there is no scam, because game projects fail all the time right?
Aaah, i see what you mean now.
Cant agree more.
But does anyone have proof they only spent 50 hours working on this game?
Or much proof about anything at all?
I think not.
Unfortunately, right or wrong backers have little recourse in demanding accountability in unless they are willing to sue for it.
Fair or not, it's just the way of this world, I knew better than to give these folks any money, a bit surprised to see some complaining here who should have obviously known better, but went forward anyways.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
No because they want to repeat the scam over and over again - through another kickstarter (that will also fail) and then another one etc...
it's a steady stream of income - for free - people just give their money freely, and there are no regulations that money is being used for the project or that any effort (than minimal one to show that something is being done) is needed. So after a time of just basically doing enough to make a tech-demo - you can pocket all the rest of the money and say the project failed.
then you rinse and repeat - start another kickstarter etc...
On the other hand if you went for a super hard scam where you are selling everything to max - you would piss off people too much and they wouldn' give you money in the next kickstarter - so scamming to max extent - backfires and you get blacklisted - but doing a low/moderate scam to where you can pass it off as "we tried hard but didn't work out" - and people believe you - you can keep that going forever.
Just look at the number of posters in this thread who will pass of any kickstarter failure as "totally fine and expected" - without taking into account that this is just taking someone's word (someone who already has the money and doesn't have to give it back, nor do they have to use the money to finish the project mind you) - can say "we failed" and all is forgiven.
I mean who would have thought that setting up a platform where - anyone without any experience can pitch an idea, ask for money donations for their idea, then they don't have to show at all what work or effort is being put into the project or how the money is being used, and can litterally show of existing assets based game - like unity assets - where they spent maybe 50 hours of work - and then they can just sit on the project for years - never working on it, collecting more money - and then can just say "we failed, sorry" - keep all the money and in reality all they ever did was 50 hours of work.
But all the above is 100% fine - because they said that they tried and failed, it's ok - see there is no scam, because game projects fail all the time right?
Adding to what you wrote the way to avoid any legal recourse for not fulfilling the promises made during crowdfunding even though that is still a tough case cause money was technically given as a 'donation' is keeping the game in minimal development. Minimal could mean one employee working part time for decades which is why CoE went back to developing the game after the lawsuit. It's a better deal to pay a single part time salary vs massive legal fees and possibly serving jail time. I don't think any crowdfunded game that is actually a scam will ever make the mistake of announcing 'they're done' after Caspian's example.
Just seen that Tim and his brother still own the company making SoL, so even though he has stepped away that does raise more question marks for me. On the basis of that I have to shift to the 'be wary of anything he now produces' side of this, moving onto new projects while others are unfinished while still owning the unfinished project smacks of wanting to have your cake and eat it.
I missed where this was mentioned, who reported this or where was the information found?
If true then reports of the two brothers "walking away" really do sound like a bit of cut and run.
I guess making streams about LotrO and cooking became more of a priority than delivering on the game he promised / chided people over.
Might not have been a scam, but such a move certainly lacks honor, no wonder it wasn't publicized when it happened, not something to be proud of.
In some ways this is worse than what Caspian / Jeremy did, at least he's still claiming to be working on his game, even if it's just to stay ahead of the lawsuit.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
...This is exactly what allows scammers to profit. ... Does this give someone the right to take advantage? Backers should be given larger protections.
I see this as two separate issues.
On one hand I would like to see more regulation especially on the side of transparency (i.e. expense reports), just like there are laws and rules to prevent illegal activities for other things. So I agree with you on your above quotes. Although that has its own downsides and will be a fine weapon for irrational mobs with pitchforks and trolls.
On the other hand that still does not absolve backers of their responsibility. People that cry scam in this thread for example use arguments that they could have used before backing the project. So why did they back it? I do not see this as hindsight but more as lacking responsibility.
I like this idea, where any company that received CF funds, should be required to produce quarterly spending fiscal reports, including direct income reports, and spending reports.
I think that would go a long way in curbing the scam artist.
I don't see this as doing much to curb anything. All this will do is allow the scam to come to a conclusion quicker and backers to realize its a scam faster. Which is better than nothing I suppose.
Here is how I see this going down. Kickstarter gets 1mil, year 1, shell company shows unordinary amount of expenses to questionable business purchases, like home rent, cell phones, computers, tv/monitors, medical, electricity, rental of storage/garage, automobile expenses, home insurance ... Backers get a little upset. Year 2 business shows even more expenses and higher salaries. Yr 3 game closes, shuts down and takes all money with them.
Where is the enforcement that they cant keep the money? To stop the scam you have to have a way to get the money back. What happens if they only work for 1 hour, then walk away. Nothing is stopping them from taking the money and doing jack for it.
This is exactly why most large loans are based on collateral. Even unsecured loans like Credit Cards, there are some penalty, courts can go after assets etc.., at the very least a credit score hit so its harder for them to do it again. Kickstarter they can do it unlimited amounts of time.
...This is exactly what allows scammers to profit. ... Does this give someone the right to take advantage? Backers should be given larger protections.
I see this as two separate issues.
On one hand I would like to see more regulation especially on the side of transparency (i.e. expense reports), just like there are laws and rules to prevent illegal activities for other things. So I agree with you on your above quotes. Although that has its own downsides and will be a fine weapon for irrational mobs with pitchforks and trolls.
On the other hand that still does not absolve backers of their responsibility. People that cry scam in this thread for example use arguments that they could have used before backing the project. So why did they back it? I do not see this as hindsight but more as lacking responsibility.
I like this idea, where any company that received CF funds, should be required to produce quarterly spending fiscal reports, including direct income reports, and spending reports.
I think that would go a long way in curbing the scam artist.
I don't see this as doing much to curb anything. All this will do is allow the scam to come to a conclusion quicker and backers to realize its a scam faster. Which is better than nothing I suppose.
Here is how I see this going down. Kickstarter gets 1mil, year 1, shell company shows unordinary amount of expenses to questionable business purchases, like home rent, cell phones, computers, tv/monitors, medical, electricity, rental of storage/garage, automobile expenses, home insurance ... Backers get a little upset. Year 2 business shows even more expenses and higher salaries. Yr 3 game closes, shuts down and takes all money with them.
Where is the enforcement that they cant keep the money? To stop the scam you have to have a way to get the money back. What happens if they only work for 1 hour, then walk away. Nothing is stopping them from taking the money and doing jack for it.
This is exactly why most large loans are based on collateral. Even unsecured loans like Credit Cards, there are some penalty, courts can go after assets etc.., at the very least a credit score hit so its harder for them to do it again. Kickstarter they can do it unlimited amounts of time.
I'm not sure there's much to be done for it, once the money is spent, as intended or flat out stolen there is no real way to squeeze blood out of a stone.
About the only idea I can think of is to try and shed more light up front on the odds of the game successfully being built, sort of how some regulators have asked for loot boxes and such.
Of course, having to say up front that there's a snowballs chance in hell of a game actually being delivered, much less on time or as promised probably won't exactly bring the pledges rolling in.
Like any good con, crowd funding has to prey on gamer's hopes and dreams, otherwise it loses all appeal.
One way to look at this, if a bank or qualified investors won't fund a venture, you probably shouldn't either unless you have no thoughts toward risking your money.
Sort of like betting it all on 35....good luck with that.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I mentioned this before, but I believe the solution is Kickstarter forcing this industry to use 3rd party escrow accounts.
Where all the money goes into a bank account held by a 3rd party that wont release it to the devs until conditions are met like:
a) Game is released before a specified deadline
b) All core goals are met when game is released
if deadline is reached with all conditions being met the money is refunded to the backers.
Are there downsides sure, like some guy living in their moms basement that doesn't have 2 nickels to rub together cant just start a Kickstarter and get rich. I don't see this as a bad thing.
Legitimate devs can get investors or banks who would be willing to fund if there was a guaranteed a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow. The devs would work there tails off and give realistic timelines so they could reach the pot of gold.
...This is exactly what allows scammers to profit. ... Does this give someone the right to take advantage? Backers should be given larger protections.
I see this as two separate issues.
On one hand I would like to see more regulation especially on the side of transparency (i.e. expense reports), just like there are laws and rules to prevent illegal activities for other things. So I agree with you on your above quotes. Although that has its own downsides and will be a fine weapon for irrational mobs with pitchforks and trolls.
On the other hand that still does not absolve backers of their responsibility. People that cry scam in this thread for example use arguments that they could have used before backing the project. So why did they back it? I do not see this as hindsight but more as lacking responsibility.
I like this idea, where any company that received CF funds, should be required to produce quarterly spending fiscal reports, including direct income reports, and spending reports.
I think that would go a long way in curbing the scam artist.
I don't see this as doing much to curb anything. All this will do is allow the scam to come to a conclusion quicker and backers to realize its a scam faster. Which is better than nothing I suppose.
Here is how I see this going down. Kickstarter gets 1mil, year 1, shell company shows unordinary amount of expenses to questionable business purchases, like home rent, cell phones, computers, tv/monitors, medical, electricity, rental of storage/garage, automobile expenses, home insurance ... Backers get a little upset. Year 2 business shows even more expenses and higher salaries. Yr 3 game closes, shuts down and takes all money with them.
Where is the enforcement that they cant keep the money? To stop the scam you have to have a way to get the money back. What happens if they only work for 1 hour, then walk away. Nothing is stopping them from taking the money and doing jack for it.
This is exactly why most large loans are based on collateral. Even unsecured loans like Credit Cards, there are some penalty, courts can go after assets etc.., at the very least a credit score hit so its harder for them to do it again. Kickstarter they can do it unlimited amounts of time.
Depending on the crowed funding platform, in the case of Kickstarter, using the money for anything outside the scope of the project is a violation of the terms and agreements, this means that legal action can be taken against the company and even individual employees.
There is also jail time they can face and a few other things, equally so if they lie on quarterly reports, that is also grounds for additional legal action.
No, you are not powerless, however, with allowing companies to keep all this data hidden allows them to carry the cheraide on longer, it also allows them to slush fund money, so that it's impossible to tell which money came from the CF venture, and what came from other sources, however, if they are required to put out quarterly spending reports, the second anything fishy or off happens, the backers can drag them to court for misappropriation of funds, that is why it is called backing a project, and not just randomly throwing money at a company.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I mentioned this before, but I believe the solution is Kickstarter forcing this industry to use 3rd party escrow accounts.
Where all the money goes into a bank account held by a 3rd party that wont release it to the devs until conditions are met like:
a) Game is released before a specified deadline
b) All core goals are met when game is released
if deadline is reached with all conditions being met the money is refunded to the backers.
Are there downsides sure, like some guy living in their moms basement that doesn't have 2 nickels to rub together cant just start a Kickstarter and get rich. I don't see this as a bad thing.
Legitimate devs can get investors or banks who would be willing to fund if there was a guaranteed a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow. The devs would work there tails off and give realistic timelines so they could reach the pot of gold.
Not sure I see any benefits to the backers in your situation.
If the devs fail to meet the conditions, banks or investors seize the escrow, leaving backers right where they are now.
Also, asking for a firm delivery date from software devs seems like wishful thinking, especially for larger projects such as MMOs so doubtful anyone would even try under such terms.
But like you said, probably not a bad thing because history has proven no MMO project has been able to hit their target dates / deliverables with most missing the mark by far more than a country mile.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Why are we even talking about Kickstarter in this thread?
Saga of Lucimia did NOT use Kickstarter, ever. From the beginning, they raised money using direct payments made through their website store.
This whole KS debate is completely off-topic and should be moved to the subforum of a game that that actually used it.
Since I have not looked this up, if they were selling a product, that opens up a whole can of worms about defrauding the public, false advertising, and a few other consumer protections, where you can't promise a product, and then not provide it, which is why crowd funding platforms were popular because they made it clear you were not buying a product, they were not selling goods or services, unlike a private store.
So this could be a great legal opportunity for someone to drag the company and everyone in it, over the coals.
Really depends on how they marketed it
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I mentioned this before, but I believe the solution is Kickstarter forcing this industry to use 3rd party escrow accounts.
Where all the money goes into a bank account held by a 3rd party that wont release it to the devs until conditions are met like:
a) Game is released before a specified deadline
b) All core goals are met when game is released
if deadline is reached with all conditions being met the money is refunded to the backers.
Are there downsides sure, like some guy living in their moms basement that doesn't have 2 nickels to rub together cant just start a Kickstarter and get rich. I don't see this as a bad thing.
Legitimate devs can get investors or banks who would be willing to fund if there was a guaranteed a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow. The devs would work there tails off and give realistic timelines so they could reach the pot of gold.
Not sure I see any benefits to the backers in your situation.
If the devs fail to meet the conditions, banks or investors seize the escrow, leaving backers right where they are now.
Also, asking for a firm delivery date from software devs seems like wishful thinking, especially for larger projects such as MMOs so doubtful anyone would even try under such terms.
But like you said, probably not a bad thing because history has proven no MMO project has been able to hit their target dates / deliverables with most missing the mark by far more than a country mile.
In the example I gave, the escrow account is held by Kickstarter or a 3rd party, and the devs wouldn't have any rights too it until they met the conditions. So banks have no rights, Kickstarter would refund backers if not completed by deadline.
This is all about diversifying risk.
Think of it this way, a company is way more likely to get an investor, if they already have a guaranteed contract order in place for xxx units. The investor knows that once the manufacturing is completed, the sale order is already in place. The more secure that sales order and the larger the revenue, the more the investor is willing to invest.
Why are we even talking about Kickstarter in this thread?
Saga of Lucimia did NOT use Kickstarter, ever. From the beginning, they raised money using direct payments made through their website store.
This whole KS debate is completely off-topic and should be moved to the subforum of a game that that actually used it.
What if we substituted Indiegogo which was used according to MassivelyOP in an article on their site today?
"Saga of Lucimia, which was partly funded on Indiegogo and partly through a custom website backing system"
Quite often a single manufacturer or provider is so well known its name becomes synonymous with a product, like "Xerox" did back when photocopiers grew to prominence, back before personal computers, CDs and all phones had a cord attached to them.
I recall reading Snowmobile was actually a brand at one time, so same here, people often say Kickstarter to reference crowd funding in general, besides it abbreviates better. (KS)
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I mentioned this before, but I believe the solution is Kickstarter forcing this industry to use 3rd party escrow accounts.
Where all the money goes into a bank account held by a 3rd party that wont release it to the devs until conditions are met like:
a) Game is released before a specified deadline
b) All core goals are met when game is released
if deadline is reached with all conditions being met the money is refunded to the backers.
Are there downsides sure, like some guy living in their moms basement that doesn't have 2 nickels to rub together cant just start a Kickstarter and get rich. I don't see this as a bad thing.
Legitimate devs can get investors or banks who would be willing to fund if there was a guaranteed a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow. The devs would work there tails off and give realistic timelines so they could reach the pot of gold.
Not sure I see any benefits to the backers in your situation.
If the devs fail to meet the conditions, banks or investors seize the escrow, leaving backers right where they are now.
Also, asking for a firm delivery date from software devs seems like wishful thinking, especially for larger projects such as MMOs so doubtful anyone would even try under such terms.
But like you said, probably not a bad thing because history has proven no MMO project has been able to hit their target dates / deliverables with most missing the mark by far more than a country mile.
In the example I gave, the escrow account is held by Kickstarter or a 3rd party, and the devs wouldn't have any rights too it until they met the conditions. So banks have no rights, Kickstarter would refund backers if not completed by deadline.
This is all about diversifying risk.
Think of it this way, a company is way more likely to get an investor, if they already have a guaranteed contract order in place for xxx units. The investor knows that once the manufacturing is completed, the sale order is already in place. The more secure that sales order and the larger the revenue, the more the investor is willing to invest.
OK, so, since it is a Kickstarter project that means the company gets to set their own goals and milestones, for where and when they get the money.
Hummmm, that's pretty open door, but, given the nature of some of these projects, sure let's go with this idea.
Now the crowd funding platform needs to take up all the responsibility of money management, which I do not ever see happening, but in the case that they will do this, it will not be done free of charge, so they will no doubt need to take a nonrefundable processing fee to handle this.
As far as refunds go, which Kickstarter does not offer and makes it clear that it's a buyer beware market with crowd funding, but, even if they were to do this there would again no doubt be a processing fee added to all returns.
So, a return would be given based on how much work was done, and what progress benchmarks have been achieved and paid for, as well as all processing fees.
So, let's say, a game made it to an Alpha stage, which is a direct midway benchmark they set, with a system in place, that they would get, half to start, which is often industry standard, then 25% more when they reached alpha, and finally, the rest with an open Beta, where they now had a direct product to sell.
So, they made it to Alpha, and received 75% of their overall funding, that means if they did not meet their deadline, for the Beta, the escrow account would only refund 25% of the funds to backers, minus all processing fees.
To be honest, I like this idea better, as it would remove the sense of entitlement that some people have thinking that if the project fails, they should get 100% of their money back.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
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I think it’s worth nothing Tim has mentioned on a few streams/videos that SoL is not a crowdfunded game and using private investment.
Crowfall and Camelot Unchained raised far more money from private investors than from Crowdfunding but even if it's only $1... once you take that $1 you are a Crowdfunded project. Same here.
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Comments
Company said they were working on this part-time while keeping their day jobs.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I really don't understand this. How is it fraud if they took the money from crowdfunding to pay themselves? I thought crowdfunding was basically unregulated so they could do what they want with the cash, and recompensating yourself for working on the crowdfunding project seems logical right - why else ask for the money?
Not paying themselves means that they are actually motivated to complete the game and that any delays hurt them more than us.
If they said they wouldn't pay themselves a salary and then did so... IMHO that is fraud. But importantly there is NO INDICATION that they have done so. Just people saying that since Tim left it somehow means he was taking money...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
"If they said they wouldn't pay themselves a salary and then did so... IMHO that is fraud" - surely just lying and deceptive behaviour, pretty sure fraud has more legal connotations.
At any rate, unless they reveal their accounts to prove otherwise I would automatically assume that they in some way used the money from crowdfunding to enrich themselves. It may not necessarily be a "salary" - could be new computers or other assets that may or may not be connected to the project, or any of a multitude of other ways of passing money around.
Like you said before though, this is kind of small fry compared to the shenanigans pulled by CoE and the like. I don't have much sympathy for the drubbing Renfail is getting here though, he was more than a bit of a nub on these forums.
Or much proof about anything at all?
I think not.
Unfortunately, right or wrong backers have little recourse in demanding accountability in unless they are willing to sue for it.
Fair or not, it's just the way of this world, I knew better than to give these folks any money, a bit surprised to see some complaining here who should have obviously known better, but went forward anyways.
Weird.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
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You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
If true then reports of the two brothers "walking away" really do sound like a bit of cut and run.
I guess making streams about LotrO and cooking became more of a priority than delivering on the game he promised / chided people over.
Might not have been a scam, but such a move certainly lacks honor, no wonder it wasn't publicized when it happened, not something to be proud of.
In some ways this is worse than what Caspian / Jeremy did, at least he's still claiming to be working on his game, even if it's just to stay ahead of the lawsuit.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Here is how I see this going down. Kickstarter gets 1mil, year 1, shell company shows unordinary amount of expenses to questionable business purchases, like home rent, cell phones, computers, tv/monitors, medical, electricity, rental of storage/garage, automobile expenses, home insurance ... Backers get a little upset. Year 2 business shows even more expenses and higher salaries. Yr 3 game closes, shuts down and takes all money with them.
Where is the enforcement that they cant keep the money? To stop the scam you have to have a way to get the money back. What happens if they only work for 1 hour, then walk away. Nothing is stopping them from taking the money and doing jack for it.
This is exactly why most large loans are based on collateral. Even unsecured loans like Credit Cards, there are some penalty, courts can go after assets etc.., at the very least a credit score hit so its harder for them to do it again. Kickstarter they can do it unlimited amounts of time.
About the only idea I can think of is to try and shed more light up front on the odds of the game successfully being built, sort of how some regulators have asked for loot boxes and such.
Of course, having to say up front that there's a snowballs chance in hell of a game actually being delivered, much less on time or as promised probably won't exactly bring the pledges rolling in.
Like any good con, crowd funding has to prey on gamer's hopes and dreams, otherwise it loses all appeal.
One way to look at this, if a bank or qualified investors won't fund a venture, you probably shouldn't either unless you have no thoughts toward risking your money.
Sort of like betting it all on 35....good luck with that.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
If the devs fail to meet the conditions, banks or investors seize the escrow, leaving backers right where they are now.
Also, asking for a firm delivery date from software devs seems like wishful thinking, especially for larger projects such as MMOs so doubtful anyone would even try under such terms.
But like you said, probably not a bad thing because history has proven no MMO project has been able to hit their target dates / deliverables with most missing the mark by far more than a country mile.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
In the example I gave, the escrow account is held by Kickstarter or a 3rd party, and the devs wouldn't have any rights too it until they met the conditions. So banks have no rights, Kickstarter would refund backers if not completed by deadline.
This is all about diversifying risk.
Think of it this way, a company is way more likely to get an investor, if they already have a guaranteed contract order in place for xxx units. The investor knows that once the manufacturing is completed, the sale order is already in place. The more secure that sales order and the larger the revenue, the more the investor is willing to invest.
"Saga of Lucimia, which was partly funded on Indiegogo and partly through a custom website backing system"
Quite often a single manufacturer or provider is so well known its name becomes synonymous with a product, like "Xerox" did back when photocopiers grew to prominence, back before personal computers, CDs and all phones had a cord attached to them.
I recall reading Snowmobile was actually a brand at one time, so same here, people often say Kickstarter to reference crowd funding in general, besides it abbreviates better. (KS)
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
But some folks want to make this about a greater Crusade. All I know is that Tim left the game as of Sept...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Weird.
It's almost if he didn't really leave.
Hrmm.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018