I think it’s worth nothing Tim has mentioned on a few streams/videos that SoL is not a crowdfunded game and using private investment.
Doesn't pre-order as a term imply guaranteed delivery of a product? Or is it just wordplay?
Yes, a pre-order does mean that you are guaranteed the product, as soon as the order arrives or is made, ahead of anyone else who did not pre-order it.
IIRC Legally you cannot sell a pre-order if you cannot aquire the product, or produce it, as that would fall under fraud.
However there is also a lot of room for delivery time, but, if lawyers got involved, there could be a strong case made that they sold a product with no means to be able to produce it, which is actually very illegal
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Regarding the comments, made by various people in this thread, speculating that @Renfail was caught doing something nefarious (stealing money, etc) and that is why he is no longer with the company... I don't buy it. It doesn't add up. I'll tell you why...
1) Renfail seems eager to share his side of the story, but is being prevented from doing so for unknown legal reasons. Presumably, the new leadership at Stormhaven Studios won't let him.
An innocent person has nothing to hide. A guilty person would not want the real story to come out.
We're all speculating but this is my take on the situation, based on the little info that we do know...
Stormhaven
studios is still operational. Seven people list themselves as presently
employed on LinkedIn. The discord has been active, w/ comments about
the recent bad weather in Texas interrupting the dev team.
I don't think Renfail and his brother left the project willingly. After all, Saga of Lucimia was his baby. He poured years of his life into this dream. He created the IP, wrote an entire book, hired the team, etc. His forum posts here were often divisive, but his "our way or the highway" attitude was a reflection of the passion he had for the game he was building.
So why is he no longer part of the project? I think there was an internal power struggle. Maybe he gave up too much control to an outside investor and got voted out somehow. Or there was a mutiny and the game's source control code was held hostage by the dev team. Who knows?
But the fact that Stormhaven studios and Renfail are unable to explain what happened (even 6 months later), rules out a simple explanation. Such as Renfail simply deciding to throw in the towel and quit.
Maybe we'll never know what actually happened. But I don't think it's fair for everyone to jump the conclusion that Renfail is guilty of wrongdoing. Without also considering there is an equally valid possibility that the new leaders at Stormhaven studios were in the wrong.
Isnt this that shards game? I mean hopefully no one touches anything this guy does in the future. People/Companies that do this, have shown they will do it repeatedly. Fool me once....
Isnt this that shards game? I mean hopefully no one touches anything this guy does in the future. People/Companies that do this, have shown they will do it repeatedly. Fool me once....
Wizardry?
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I mentioned this before, but I believe the solution is Kickstarter forcing this industry to use 3rd party escrow accounts.
Where all the money goes into a bank account held by a 3rd party that wont release it to the devs until conditions are met like:
a) Game is released before a specified deadline
b) All core goals are met when game is released
if deadline is reached with all conditions being met the money is refunded to the backers.
Are there downsides sure, like some guy living in their moms basement that doesn't have 2 nickels to rub together cant just start a Kickstarter and get rich. I don't see this as a bad thing.
Legitimate devs can get investors or banks who would be willing to fund if there was a guaranteed a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow. The devs would work there tails off and give realistic timelines so they could reach the pot of gold.
Having Bankers or a third party dictate how funds will be spent will hamper an indie company. What if they say, "no, this feature or that feature is out of scope or too expensive"... they are friggin bankers.
Then they are also going to eat into the funds with their oversight fees... big time.
Waiting for delete to chime in and have a complete meltdown over this idea (must still be banned)
I mentioned this before, but I believe the solution is Kickstarter forcing this industry to use 3rd party escrow accounts.
Where all the money goes into a bank account held by a 3rd party that wont release it to the devs until conditions are met like:
a) Game is released before a specified deadline
b) All core goals are met when game is released
if deadline is reached with all conditions being met the money is refunded to the backers.
Are there downsides sure, like some guy living in their moms basement that doesn't have 2 nickels to rub together cant just start a Kickstarter and get rich. I don't see this as a bad thing.
Legitimate devs can get investors or banks who would be willing to fund if there was a guaranteed a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow. The devs would work there tails off and give realistic timelines so they could reach the pot of gold.
Not sure I see any benefits to the backers in your situation.
If the devs fail to meet the conditions, banks or investors seize the escrow, leaving backers right where they are now.
Also, asking for a firm delivery date from software devs seems like wishful thinking, especially for larger projects such as MMOs so doubtful anyone would even try under such terms.
But like you said, probably not a bad thing because history has proven no MMO project has been able to hit their target dates / deliverables with most missing the mark by far more than a country mile.
In the example I gave, the escrow account is held by Kickstarter or a 3rd party, and the devs wouldn't have any rights too it until they met the conditions. So banks have no rights, Kickstarter would refund backers if not completed by deadline.
This is all about diversifying risk.
Think of it this way, a company is way more likely to get an investor, if they already have a guaranteed contract order in place for xxx units. The investor knows that once the manufacturing is completed, the sale order is already in place. The more secure that sales order and the larger the revenue, the more the investor is willing to invest.
The problem is that if game developers can't get kickstarter funds until after they've launched their game, then they can't use kickstarter funds to develop their game. That completely defeats the point of using kickstarter. Once you've launched a game, you don't need kickstarter to sell it.
Why are we even talking about Kickstarter in this thread?
Saga of Lucimia did NOT use Kickstarter, ever. From the beginning, they raised money using direct payments made through their website store.
This whole KS debate is completely off-topic and should be moved to the subforum of a game that that actually used it.
They did use Indegogo and raised something like $3800
But some folks want to make this about a greater Crusade. All I know is that Tim left the game as of Sept...
Why are you providing cover for this guy? I'm starting to think you are some how tied to this project or you know Tim in real life here. It is really weird how much time you have wasted trying to deflect the criticism this project rightly deserves.
Scam or not, this project will never see the light of day. They have been working on this since 2015 with nothing more to show than a glorified tech demo. I don't get why so many people are giving cover to a person who clearly was a total jerk on these forums as well? Why do you care? What benefit are you getting here by trying play the role of forum cop? Who cares if people want to label this a scam, or make snide remarks about Tim's character? The guy deserves every single bit of it.
You're damn right people are on a crusade too! We are fugging tired of these snake oil salesman trying to sell us empty promises basically. Enough is enough already. This project deserves to be criticized into oblivion.
Regarding the comments, made by various people in this thread, speculating that @Renfail was caught doing something nefarious (stealing money, etc) and that is why he is no longer with the company... I don't buy it. It doesn't add up. I'll tell you why...
1) Renfail seems eager to share his side of the story, but is being prevented from doing so for unknown legal reasons. Presumably, the new leadership at Stormhaven Studios won't let him.
An innocent person has nothing to hide. A guilty person would not want the real story to come out.
We're all speculating but this is my take on the situation, based on the little info that we do know...
Stormhaven
studios is still operational. Seven people list themselves as presently
employed on LinkedIn. The discord has been active, w/ comments about
the recent bad weather in Texas interrupting the dev team.
I don't think Renfail and his brother left the project willingly. After all, Saga of Lucimia was his baby. He poured years of his life into this dream. He created the IP, wrote an entire book, hired the team, etc. His forum posts here were often divisive, but his "our way or the highway" attitude was a reflection of the passion he had for the game he was building.
So why is he no longer part of the project? I think there was an internal power struggle. Maybe he gave up too much control to an outside investor and got voted out somehow. Or there was a mutiny and the game's source control code was held hostage by the dev team. Who knows?
But the fact that Stormhaven studios and Renfail are unable to explain what happened (even 6 months later), rules out a simple explanation. Such as Renfail simply deciding to throw in the towel and quit.
Maybe we'll never know what actually happened. But I don't think it's fair for everyone to jump the conclusion that Renfail is guilty of wrongdoing. Without also considering there is an equally valid possibility that the new leaders at Stormhaven studios were in the wrong.
I think they removed him from his role, because he was a PR nightmare. I've never in all my years in gaming seen the face of a project come across with such toxic behavior as he did in basically all his interactions with backers and potential customers when he tried to market their project.
I'm assuming this same personality was a problem internally as well. I also think his total lack of actual coding skills was probably a huge source of contention on the team. A lot of his ideas for his game were outdated too and he seemed very hostile to any kind of compromise in his vision. He has an ego problem and this was probably a huge issue internally.
Why are we even talking about Kickstarter in this thread?
Saga of Lucimia did NOT use Kickstarter, ever. From the beginning, they raised money using direct payments made through their website store.
This whole KS debate is completely off-topic and should be moved to the subforum of a game that that actually used it.
They did use Indegogo and raised something like $3800
But some folks want to make this about a greater Crusade. All I know is that Tim left the game as of Sept...
Why are you providing cover for this guy? I'm starting to think you are some how tied to this project or you know Tim in real life here. It is really weird how much time you have wasted trying to deflect the criticism this project rightly deserves.
Scam or not, this project will never see the light of day. They have been working on this since 2015 with nothing more to show than a glorified tech demo. I don't get why so many people are giving cover to a person who clearly was a total jerk on these forums as well? Why do you care? What benefit are you getting here by trying play the role of forum cop? Who cares if people want to label this a scam, or make snide remarks about Tim's character? The guy deserves every single bit of it.
You're damn right people are on a crusade too! We are fugging tired of these snake oil salesman trying to sell us empty promises basically. Enough is enough already. This project deserves to be criticized into oblivion.
This is a perfect example of how NOT to go after a company. No explanation needed for the 99% of rational folks. For the other 1%... you keep doing you. Its fun to watch.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Isnt this that shards game? I mean hopefully no one touches anything this guy does in the future. People/Companies that do this, have shown they will do it repeatedly. Fool me once....
Not the shards game but I know where you are coming from, so many of these CF games with the same old story, they are merging into one story.
I mentioned this before, but I believe the solution is Kickstarter forcing this industry to use 3rd party escrow accounts.
Where all the money goes into a bank account held by a 3rd party that wont release it to the devs until conditions are met like:
a) Game is released before a specified deadline
b) All core goals are met when game is released
if deadline is reached with all conditions being met the money is refunded to the backers.
Are there downsides sure, like some guy living in their moms basement that doesn't have 2 nickels to rub together cant just start a Kickstarter and get rich. I don't see this as a bad thing.
Legitimate devs can get investors or banks who would be willing to fund if there was a guaranteed a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow. The devs would work there tails off and give realistic timelines so they could reach the pot of gold.
Not sure I see any benefits to the backers in your situation.
If the devs fail to meet the conditions, banks or investors seize the escrow, leaving backers right where they are now.
Also, asking for a firm delivery date from software devs seems like wishful thinking, especially for larger projects such as MMOs so doubtful anyone would even try under such terms.
But like you said, probably not a bad thing because history has proven no MMO project has been able to hit their target dates / deliverables with most missing the mark by far more than a country mile.
In the example I gave, the escrow account is held by Kickstarter or a 3rd party, and the devs wouldn't have any rights too it until they met the conditions. So banks have no rights, Kickstarter would refund backers if not completed by deadline.
This is all about diversifying risk.
Think of it this way, a company is way more likely to get an investor, if they already have a guaranteed contract order in place for xxx units. The investor knows that once the manufacturing is completed, the sale order is already in place. The more secure that sales order and the larger the revenue, the more the investor is willing to invest.
The problem is that if game developers can't get kickstarter funds until after they've launched their game, then they can't use kickstarter funds to develop their game. That completely defeats the point of using kickstarter. Once you've launched a game, you don't need kickstarter to sell it.
I think you missed the point. You turn these funds into a future asset, so that investors or banks can evaluate it as such in the present.
Ok let me give you another way of looking at this.
a) Company A asks for 5mil loan to manufacture widgets in 4 yrs, however they have a 10mil fund or 100% GAURANTEED pre-order sales if they manufacture the widget by the 4yr deadline.
b) Company B wants 5mil to manufacture widgets in 4 yrs. Has zero sales orders, zero assets.
Who do you think is going to get the loan? Even if company B asks for only 1mil, its so risky no way they will get a loan. Company A has much less risk to the investor because all they have to do is hit a deadline to be successful.
This allows Banks or Investors to vet solid business plans and force Devs to meet deadlines by doling out the money over periods of time hitting certain goals.
Additionally, backers are way more likely to put there money in if they were guaranteed a 100% return if it failed, so the pool of money would be larger then if there was zero security to the backer.
I mentioned this before, but I believe the solution is Kickstarter forcing this industry to use 3rd party escrow accounts.
Where all the money goes into a bank account held by a 3rd party that wont release it to the devs until conditions are met like:
a) Game is released before a specified deadline
b) All core goals are met when game is released
if deadline is reached with all conditions being met the money is refunded to the backers.
Are there downsides sure, like some guy living in their moms basement that doesn't have 2 nickels to rub together cant just start a Kickstarter and get rich. I don't see this as a bad thing.
Legitimate devs can get investors or banks who would be willing to fund if there was a guaranteed a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow. The devs would work there tails off and give realistic timelines so they could reach the pot of gold.
Not sure I see any benefits to the backers in your situation.
If the devs fail to meet the conditions, banks or investors seize the escrow, leaving backers right where they are now.
Also, asking for a firm delivery date from software devs seems like wishful thinking, especially for larger projects such as MMOs so doubtful anyone would even try under such terms.
But like you said, probably not a bad thing because history has proven no MMO project has been able to hit their target dates / deliverables with most missing the mark by far more than a country mile.
In the example I gave, the escrow account is held by Kickstarter or a 3rd party, and the devs wouldn't have any rights too it until they met the conditions. So banks have no rights, Kickstarter would refund backers if not completed by deadline.
This is all about diversifying risk.
Think of it this way, a company is way more likely to get an investor, if they already have a guaranteed contract order in place for xxx units. The investor knows that once the manufacturing is completed, the sale order is already in place. The more secure that sales order and the larger the revenue, the more the investor is willing to invest.
OK, so, since it is a Kickstarter project that means the company gets to set their own goals and milestones, for where and when they get the money.
Hummmm, that's pretty open door, but, given the nature of some of these projects, sure let's go with this idea.
Now the crowd funding platform needs to take up all the responsibility of money management, which I do not ever see happening, but in the case that they will do this, it will not be done free of charge, so they will no doubt need to take a nonrefundable processing fee to handle this.
As far as refunds go, which Kickstarter does not offer and makes it clear that it's a buyer beware market with crowd funding, but, even if they were to do this there would again no doubt be a processing fee added to all returns.
So, a return would be given based on how much work was done, and what progress benchmarks have been achieved and paid for, as well as all processing fees.
So, let's say, a game made it to an Alpha stage, which is a direct midway benchmark they set, with a system in place, that they would get, half to start, which is often industry standard, then 25% more when they reached alpha, and finally, the rest with an open Beta, where they now had a direct product to sell.
So, they made it to Alpha, and received 75% of their overall funding, that means if they did not meet their deadline, for the Beta, the escrow account would only refund 25% of the funds to backers, minus all processing fees.
To be honest, I like this idea better, as it would remove the sense of entitlement that some people have thinking that if the project fails, they should get 100% of their money back.
First I am not saying my solution is the end all or be all of solutions. I am just pointing to a way this can be done with almost zero risk to backers in addition to still providing a pathway for legitimate small businesses.
I am not advocating for Kickstarter to get caught up in some complicated process. It needs to be simple, that means they release the entire batch of money once the product releases and meets very simplified goals. They don't need to evaluate quality or anything else.
All the evaluation will be done by the companies that know how to do it, which are the ones that give the loans.
Have you never used a 3rd party to transfer goods? Example like I sold a website using a 3rd party broker for 10k once. After money was receive and website moved, they transferred the funds. Sure fees are involved, but the security of the transfer was worth it, I am certain I got a higher price for it also because of that security so it balanced out.
To be honest, I like this idea better, as it would remove the sense of entitlement that some people have thinking that if the project fails, they should get 100% of their money back.
What is your problem with backers? Why do you feel they deserve to be punished?
Backers are asked to give xxx money, they met their obligation, you don't think its now the devs responsibility to deliver the product they said they could make with that money?
Do you also feel this way, when you buy something online and they send you a defective product or worse no product at all?
I guess this is why I use Amazon Prime because I know I will get 100% money back if the item is not exactly as described. Precisely why I wont be using Crowdfunding or giving money to these shady games until there is 100% certainty in the future.
To be honest, I like this idea better, as it would remove the sense of entitlement that some people have thinking that if the project fails, they should get 100% of their money back.
What is your problem with backers? Why do you feel they deserve to be punished?
Backers are asked to give xxx money, they met their obligation, you don't think its now the devs responsibility to deliver the product they said they could make with that money?
Do you also feel this way, when you buy something online and they send you a defective product or worse no product at all?
I guess this is why I use Amazon Prime because I know I will get 100% money back if the item is not exactly as described. Precisely why I wont be using Crowdfunding or giving money to these shady games until there is 100% certainty in the future.
Why do you feel like backers are being punished? They donate to a project to increase its chances of succes/launch. That is all it really is at the end of the day, they even do it out of free will. No one is really being punished here. Enticed? Yes.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
To be honest, I like this idea better, as it would remove the sense of entitlement that some people have thinking that if the project fails, they should get 100% of their money back.
What is your problem with backers? Why do you feel they deserve to be punished?
Backers are asked to give xxx money, they met their obligation, you don't think its now the devs responsibility to deliver the product they said they could make with that money?
Do you also feel this way, when you buy something online and they send you a defective product or worse no product at all?
I guess this is why I use Amazon Prime because I know I will get 100% money back if the item is not exactly as described. Precisely why I wont be using Crowdfunding or giving money to these shady games until there is 100% certainty in the future.
Well no.
The problem is that you and others don't understand what backing a game is.
It's nothing more than a donation with the hope that something can be accomplished. It's pretty much been stated since the inception of these things.
Along with the statement that there are no guarantees.
People here have issues with that because they just aren't used to this type of giving. But giving to small arts organizations can very well be like this. And if someone gives to an organization that is listed as "non profit" and it dissolves because it can't sustain itself, then that money isn't given back. It's my understanding that it has to go to another listed non-profit.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
To be honest, I like this idea better, as it would remove the sense of entitlement that some people have thinking that if the project fails, they should get 100% of their money back.
What is your problem with backers? Why do you feel they deserve to be punished?
Backers are asked to give xxx money, they met their obligation, you don't think its now the devs responsibility to deliver the product they said they could make with that money?
Do you also feel this way, when you buy something online and they send you a defective product or worse no product at all?
I guess this is why I use Amazon Prime because I know I will get 100% money back if the item is not exactly as described. Precisely why I wont be using Crowdfunding or giving money to these shady games until there is 100% certainty in the future.
Well no.
The problem is that you and others don't understand what backing a game is.
It's nothing more than a donation with the hope that something can be accomplished. It's pretty much been stated since the inception of these things.
Along with the statement that there are no guarantees.
People here have issues with that because they just aren't used to this type of giving. But giving to small arts organizations can very well be like this. And if someone gives to an organization that is listed as "non profit" and it dissolves because it can't sustain itself, then that money isn't given back. It's my understanding that it has to go to another listed non-profit.
Let me understand the equivalency because I am not familiar with the Art projects you are talking about.
So you give money to an Artist projects, that says they will send you a piece of art at its completion. The artist decides its not worth their time anymore to complete the art, so artist just keeps the money and goes on their merry way? No harm no foul.
Let me understand the equivalency because I am not familiar with the Art projects you are talking about.
So you give money to an Artist projects, that says they will send you a piece of art at its completion. The artist decides its not worth their time anymore to complete the art, so artist just keeps the money and goes on their merry way? No harm no foul.
Seems scammy to me.
Not exactly.
If I give money to an arts "organization" and they fold then I don't get that money back. Not if I give money in the hopes of getting a painting or sculpture or some such thing then that's something completely different.
So I donate so they can continue and have another season, give another performance, "stay open" if it's some sort of small gallery but their costs are prohibitive and they can't continue, then I don't get that money back.
If I give to a listed non-profit, let's say to the now defunct Hartford Ballet then I can't get my money back. That money has to go to another non-profit. Not sure how that's decided.
This is of course if their debts are cleared.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Let me understand the equivalency because I am not familiar with the Art projects you are talking about.
So you give money to an Artist projects, that says they will send you a piece of art at its completion. The artist decides its not worth their time anymore to complete the art, so artist just keeps the money and goes on their merry way? No harm no foul.
Seems scammy to me.
Not exactly.
If I give money to an arts "organization" and they fold then I don't get that money back. Not if I give money in the hopes of getting a painting or sculpture or some such thing then that's something completely different.
So I donate so they can continue and have another season, give another performance, "stay open" if it's some sort of small gallery but their costs are prohibitive and they can't continue, then I don't get that money back.
If I give to a listed non-profit, let's say to the now defunct Hartford Ballet then I can't get my money back. That money has to go to another non-profit. Not sure how that's decided.
This is of course if their debts are cleared.
I assume that the Hartford Ballet has actual paperwork and tax requirements to exist? I do not believe that the Crowdfunded games we are discussing have the same documentation.
And lets be honest, in this circumstance it would be more like donating to the Hartford Ballet Tribute company which was formed by 10 fans of the genre who never danced professionally and want to compose and choreograph an epic ballet. Oh, and they also do not rent or own a hall, so will be practicing remotely and performing in Jim's garage.
Oh and they also have Uncle Tim as their public facing solicitor of funds and Tim mostly just roams the internet telling people that "Ballet is the only way!!!" and "If you disagree heres a box of tissues!!!"
Thats kind of what we are talking here...
But honestly, as insightful as some of this discussion around Kickstarter/Crowdfuning is it should probably shift to its own thead. Even if only for the simple reason that a few weeks from now it will be impossible to find as it's in a news article about the SoL Creative Director leaving the game 6 months ago.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Why are we even talking about Kickstarter in this thread?
Saga of Lucimia did NOT use Kickstarter, ever. From the beginning, they raised money using direct payments made through their website store.
This whole KS debate is completely off-topic and should be moved to the subforum of a game that that actually used it.
They did use Indegogo and raised something like $3800
But some folks want to make this about a greater Crusade. All I know is that Tim left the game as of Sept...
Why are you providing cover for this guy? I'm starting to think you are some how tied to this project or you know Tim in real life here. It is really weird how much time you have wasted trying to deflect the criticism this project rightly deserves.
Scam or not, this project will never see the light of day. They have been working on this since 2015 with nothing more to show than a glorified tech demo. I don't get why so many people are giving cover to a person who clearly was a total jerk on these forums as well? Why do you care? What benefit are you getting here by trying play the role of forum cop? Who cares if people want to label this a scam, or make snide remarks about Tim's character? The guy deserves every single bit of it.
You're damn right people are on a crusade too! We are fugging tired of these snake oil salesman trying to sell us empty promises basically. Enough is enough already. This project deserves to be criticized into oblivion.
This is a perfect example of how NOT to go after a company. No explanation needed for the 99% of rational folks. For the other 1%... you keep doing you. Its fun to watch.
When people start losing money, they get irrational. Keep making excuses though for this guy, it is fun to watch lol.
I assume that the Hartford Ballet has actual paperwork and tax requirements to exist? I do not believe that the Crowdfunded games we are discussing have the same documentation.
I realize this is a hard concept to grasp but apparently so is crowdfunding.
If a small group of people put on a concert, theater performance, "whatever" they might not be officially non-profit. But they can and do ask for donations with the hopes that if you like their work they can continue.
Could be in a small rented black box theater or a place where all the artists put in their own money to rent the theater. And they can and do ask for donations. Sometimes you can see them again and sometimes they just can't make it happen.
And as I hopefully made clear, if you give money to a listed non-profit and that non-profit folds you do not get your money back. it has to go to another non-profit. which is my understanding.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Why are we even talking about Kickstarter in this thread?
Saga of Lucimia did NOT use Kickstarter, ever. From the beginning, they raised money using direct payments made through their website store.
This whole KS debate is completely off-topic and should be moved to the subforum of a game that that actually used it.
They did use Indegogo and raised something like $3800
But some folks want to make this about a greater Crusade. All I know is that Tim left the game as of Sept...
Why are you providing cover for this guy? I'm starting to think you are some how tied to this project or you know Tim in real life here. It is really weird how much time you have wasted trying to deflect the criticism this project rightly deserves.
Scam or not, this project will never see the light of day. They have been working on this since 2015 with nothing more to show than a glorified tech demo. I don't get why so many people are giving cover to a person who clearly was a total jerk on these forums as well? Why do you care? What benefit are you getting here by trying play the role of forum cop? Who cares if people want to label this a scam, or make snide remarks about Tim's character? The guy deserves every single bit of it.
You're damn right people are on a crusade too! We are fugging tired of these snake oil salesman trying to sell us empty promises basically. Enough is enough already. This project deserves to be criticized into oblivion.
This is a perfect example of how NOT to go after a company. No explanation needed for the 99% of rational folks. For the other 1%... you keep doing you. Its fun to watch.
When people start losing money, they get irrational. Keep making excuses though for this guy, it is fun to watch lol.
You are 100% correct on the first part but the second is just laughable. Saying: "Show me proof that he potentially committed FRAUD by paying himself money that he said he would not. If you have proof I will join in" Is only "making excuses for this guy" in the eyes of an irrational person.
Like I said, keep doing you though.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I assume that the Hartford Ballet has actual paperwork and tax requirements to exist? I do not believe that the Crowdfunded games we are discussing have the same documentation.
I realize this is a hard concept to grasp but apparently so is crowdfunding.
If a small group of people put on a concert, theater performance, "whatever" they might not be officially non-profit. But they can and do ask for donations with the hopes that if you like their work they can continue.
Could be in a small rented black box theater or a place where all the artists put in their own money to rent the theater. And they can and do ask for donations. Sometimes you can see them again and sometimes they just can't make it happen.
And as I hopefully made clear, if you give money to a listed non-profit and that non-profit folds you do not get your money back. it has to go to another non-profit. which is my understanding.
Is there any instance where you can think of that the small group of theater people raises money years in advance for this production? And that money was in the millions? Not talking about an established company, but about your example of the BlackBox theater folks.
Does my description of the Hartford Ballet Tribute Company not describe what happened with SoL? If not, where did I go wrong?
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I assume that the Hartford Ballet has actual paperwork and tax requirements to exist? I do not believe that the Crowdfunded games we are discussing have the same documentation.
I realize this is a hard concept to grasp but apparently so is crowdfunding.
If a small group of people put on a concert, theater performance, "whatever" they might not be officially non-profit. But they can and do ask for donations with the hopes that if you like their work they can continue.
Could be in a small rented black box theater or a place where all the artists put in their own money to rent the theater. And they can and do ask for donations. Sometimes you can see them again and sometimes they just can't make it happen.
And as I hopefully made clear, if you give money to a listed non-profit and that non-profit folds you do not get your money back. it has to go to another non-profit. which is my understanding.
Is there any instance where you can think of that the small group of theater people raises money years in advance for this production? And that money was in the millions? Not talking about an established company, but about your example of the BlackBox theater folks.
Does my description of the Hartford Ballet Tribute Company not describe what happened with SoL? If not, where did I go wrong?
Your example would be more like I said above, some people rent a theater, maybe they have someone who danced or choreographed for Hartford ballet and they then put in a performance.
I don't know of any small arts organization (i'm talking "small" ) that would raise a million dollars let alone millions.
But, I could see a small group of people who are good put on a performance and ask for donations for a larger performance but them not being an official non-profit. I personally would balk at this or at the very most throw them a fiver.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I mentioned this before, but I believe the solution is Kickstarter forcing this industry to use 3rd party escrow accounts.
Where all the money goes into a bank account held by a 3rd party that wont release it to the devs until conditions are met like:
a) Game is released before a specified deadline
b) All core goals are met when game is released
if deadline is reached with all conditions being met the money is refunded to the backers.
Are there downsides sure, like some guy living in their moms basement that doesn't have 2 nickels to rub together cant just start a Kickstarter and get rich. I don't see this as a bad thing.
Legitimate devs can get investors or banks who would be willing to fund if there was a guaranteed a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow. The devs would work there tails off and give realistic timelines so they could reach the pot of gold.
Not sure I see any benefits to the backers in your situation.
If the devs fail to meet the conditions, banks or investors seize the escrow, leaving backers right where they are now.
Also, asking for a firm delivery date from software devs seems like wishful thinking, especially for larger projects such as MMOs so doubtful anyone would even try under such terms.
But like you said, probably not a bad thing because history has proven no MMO project has been able to hit their target dates / deliverables with most missing the mark by far more than a country mile.
In the example I gave, the escrow account is held by Kickstarter or a 3rd party, and the devs wouldn't have any rights too it until they met the conditions. So banks have no rights, Kickstarter would refund backers if not completed by deadline.
This is all about diversifying risk.
Think of it this way, a company is way more likely to get an investor, if they already have a guaranteed contract order in place for xxx units. The investor knows that once the manufacturing is completed, the sale order is already in place. The more secure that sales order and the larger the revenue, the more the investor is willing to invest.
The problem is that if game developers can't get kickstarter funds until after they've launched their game, then they can't use kickstarter funds to develop their game. That completely defeats the point of using kickstarter. Once you've launched a game, you don't need kickstarter to sell it.
I think you missed the point. You turn these funds into a future asset, so that investors or banks can evaluate it as such in the present.
Ok let me give you another way of looking at this.
a) Company A asks for 5mil loan to manufacture widgets in 4 yrs, however they have a 10mil fund or 100% GAURANTEED pre-order sales if they manufacture the widget by the 4yr deadline.
b) Company B wants 5mil to manufacture widgets in 4 yrs. Has zero sales orders, zero assets.
Who do you think is going to get the loan? Even if company B asks for only 1mil, its so risky no way they will get a loan. Company A has much less risk to the investor because all they have to do is hit a deadline to be successful.
This allows Banks or Investors to vet solid business plans and force Devs to meet deadlines by doling out the money over periods of time hitting certain goals.
Additionally, backers are way more likely to put there money in if they were guaranteed a 100% return if it failed, so the pool of money would be larger then if there was zero security to the backer.
Neither will get the bank loan, because as you've structured it, neither is likely to ever see the money. Investors putting money into highly risky investments demand huge upside if the investment works out, not just the modest interest rate that banks charge.
Comments
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Then they are also going to eat into the funds with their oversight fees... big time.
Waiting for delete to chime in and have a complete meltdown over this idea (must still be banned)
Scam or not, this project will never see the light of day. They have been working on this since 2015 with nothing more to show than a glorified tech demo. I don't get why so many people are giving cover to a person who clearly was a total jerk on these forums as well? Why do you care? What benefit are you getting here by trying play the role of forum cop? Who cares if people want to label this a scam, or make snide remarks about Tim's character? The guy deserves every single bit of it.
You're damn right people are on a crusade too! We are fugging tired of these snake oil salesman trying to sell us empty promises basically. Enough is enough already. This project deserves to be criticized into oblivion.
I'm assuming this same personality was a problem internally as well. I also think his total lack of actual coding skills was probably a huge source of contention on the team. A lot of his ideas for his game were outdated too and he seemed very hostile to any kind of compromise in his vision. He has an ego problem and this was probably a huge issue internally.
No explanation needed for the 99% of rational folks.
For the other 1%... you keep doing you. Its fun to watch.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I think you missed the point. You turn these funds into a future asset, so that investors or banks can evaluate it as such in the present.
Ok let me give you another way of looking at this.
a) Company A asks for 5mil loan to manufacture widgets in 4 yrs, however they have a 10mil fund or 100% GAURANTEED pre-order sales if they manufacture the widget by the 4yr deadline.
b) Company B wants 5mil to manufacture widgets in 4 yrs. Has zero sales orders, zero assets.
Who do you think is going to get the loan? Even if company B asks for only 1mil, its so risky no way they will get a loan. Company A has much less risk to the investor because all they have to do is hit a deadline to be successful.
This allows Banks or Investors to vet solid business plans and force Devs to meet deadlines by doling out the money over periods of time hitting certain goals.
Additionally, backers are way more likely to put there money in if they were guaranteed a 100% return if it failed, so the pool of money would be larger then if there was zero security to the backer.
I am not advocating for Kickstarter to get caught up in some complicated process. It needs to be simple, that means they release the entire batch of money once the product releases and meets very simplified goals. They don't need to evaluate quality or anything else.
All the evaluation will be done by the companies that know how to do it, which are the ones that give the loans.
Have you never used a 3rd party to transfer goods? Example like I sold a website using a 3rd party broker for 10k once. After money was receive and website moved, they transferred the funds. Sure fees are involved, but the security of the transfer was worth it, I am certain I got a higher price for it also because of that security so it balanced out.
Backers are asked to give xxx money, they met their obligation, you don't think its now the devs responsibility to deliver the product they said they could make with that money?
Do you also feel this way, when you buy something online and they send you a defective product or worse no product at all?
I guess this is why I use Amazon Prime because I know I will get 100% money back if the item is not exactly as described. Precisely why I wont be using Crowdfunding or giving money to these shady games until there is 100% certainty in the future.
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
So you give money to an Artist projects, that says they will send you a piece of art at its completion. The artist decides its not worth their time anymore to complete the art, so artist just keeps the money and goes on their merry way? No harm no foul.
Seems scammy to me.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
And lets be honest, in this circumstance it would be more like donating to the Hartford Ballet Tribute company which was formed by 10 fans of the genre who never danced professionally and want to compose and choreograph an epic ballet. Oh, and they also do not rent or own a hall, so will be practicing remotely and performing in Jim's garage.
Oh and they also have Uncle Tim as their public facing solicitor of funds and Tim mostly just roams the internet telling people that "Ballet is the only way!!!" and "If you disagree heres a box of tissues!!!"
Thats kind of what we are talking here...
But honestly, as insightful as some of this discussion around Kickstarter/Crowdfuning is it should probably shift to its own thead. Even if only for the simple reason that a few weeks from now it will be impossible to find as it's in a news article about the SoL Creative Director leaving the game 6 months ago.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
If a small group of people put on a concert, theater performance, "whatever" they might not be officially non-profit. But they can and do ask for donations with the hopes that if you like their work they can continue.
Could be in a small rented black box theater or a place where all the artists put in their own money to rent the theater. And they can and do ask for donations. Sometimes you can see them again and sometimes they just can't make it happen.
And as I hopefully made clear, if you give money to a listed non-profit and that non-profit folds you do not get your money back. it has to go to another non-profit. which is my understanding.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Saying: "Show me proof that he potentially committed FRAUD by paying himself money that he said he would not. If you have proof I will join in"
Is only "making excuses for this guy" in the eyes of an irrational person.
Like I said, keep doing you though.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Does my description of the Hartford Ballet Tribute Company not describe what happened with SoL? If not, where did I go wrong?
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I don't know of any small arts organization (i'm talking "small" ) that would raise a million dollars let alone millions.
But, I could see a small group of people who are good put on a performance and ask for donations for a larger performance but them not being an official non-profit. I personally would balk at this or at the very most throw them a fiver.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo