To be honest, I like this idea better, as it would remove the sense of entitlement that some people have thinking that if the project fails, they should get 100% of their money back.
What is your problem with backers? Why do you feel they deserve to be punished?
Backers are asked to give xxx money, they met their obligation, you don't think its now the devs responsibility to deliver the product they said they could make with that money?
Do you also feel this way, when you buy something online and they send you a defective product or worse no product at all?
I guess this is why I use Amazon Prime because I know I will get 100% money back if the item is not exactly as described. Precisely why I wont be using Crowdfunding or giving money to these shady games until there is 100% certainty in the future.
Why do you feel like backers are being punished? They donate to a project to increase its chances of succes/launch. That is all it really is at the end of the day, they even do it out of free will. No one is really being punished here. Enticed? Yes.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
If companies just put a big red button on their store page that said PRESS TO DONATE and it had no product listing we would all be better off.
That's not what they do though. They literally have Stores, that have monthly Sales, that list Products that you can Purchase. If you look at the TOS, many of them even describe "Sale of Goods".
Yes I agree with you, they are misleading people on purpose no doubt.
There we agree, many MMO crowd funded projects do mislead people, but not this particular one IMO.
They clearly said they had no prior experience, gave 5 solid reasons not to donate (updated regularly btw), didn't run a continuous store front of pre order goods, actually stopped taking donations for a period, going dark to work on the game, and...had a bit of an arse as spokesperson who never went out of his way to win donations with his charm.
Clearly we aren't being told the whole story, but I just can't classify this one as a blantent scam.
No one can say they had no idea what they were getting into here or that the chances of a fun, playable game being delivered were even lower than most.
WWhil this is all well and good, it's still illegal to sell a product you cannot provide
Did they sell a product or take donations.
I am not sure, that is something their customers would have to settle, which is something that I am not, as I agreed with their list of reasons not to give them money ?
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
To be honest, I like this idea better, as it would remove the sense of entitlement that some people have thinking that if the project fails, they should get 100% of their money back.
What is your problem with backers? Why do you feel they deserve to be punished?
Backers are asked to give xxx money, they met their obligation, you don't think its now the devs responsibility to deliver the product they said they could make with that money?
Do you also feel this way, when you buy something online and they send you a defective product or worse no product at all?
I guess this is why I use Amazon Prime because I know I will get 100% money back if the item is not exactly as described. Precisely why I wont be using Crowdfunding or giving money to these shady games until there is 100% certainty in the future.
Why do you feel like backers are being punished? They donate to a project to increase its chances of succes/launch. That is all it really is at the end of the day, they even do it out of free will. No one is really being punished here. Enticed? Yes.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
If companies just put a big red button on their store page that said PRESS TO DONATE and it had no product listing we would all be better off.
That's not what they do though. They literally have Stores, that have monthly Sales, that list Products that you can Purchase. If you look at the TOS, many of them even describe "Sale of Goods".
Yes I agree with you, they are misleading people on purpose no doubt.
There we agree, many MMO crowd funded projects do mislead people, but not this particular one IMO.
They clearly said they had no prior experience, gave 5 solid reasons not to donate (updated regularly btw), didn't run a continuous store front of pre order goods, actually stopped taking donations for a period, going dark to work on the game, and...had a bit of an arse as spokesperson who never went out of his way to win donations with his charm.
Clearly we aren't being told the whole story, but I just can't classify this one as a blantent scam.
No one can say they had no idea what they were getting into here or that the chances of a fun, playable game being delivered were even lower than most.
WWhil this is all well and good, it's still illegal to sell a product you cannot provide
Did they sell a product or take donations.
Definitely not a donation, they sold a pre-order with very specific terms listed in the TOS including all monies already spent building the game aren't refundable.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
To be honest, I like this idea better, as it would remove the sense of entitlement that some people have thinking that if the project fails, they should get 100% of their money back.
What is your problem with backers? Why do you feel they deserve to be punished?
Backers are asked to give xxx money, they met their obligation, you don't think its now the devs responsibility to deliver the product they said they could make with that money?
Do you also feel this way, when you buy something online and they send you a defective product or worse no product at all?
I guess this is why I use Amazon Prime because I know I will get 100% money back if the item is not exactly as described. Precisely why I wont be using Crowdfunding or giving money to these shady games until there is 100% certainty in the future.
Kickstarter, says several times over that you are not buying a product, that their site is to crowdfund ideas, you are NOT purchasing goods and services, you are backing a potential product, and they do this, just so that people won't get the idea into their heads that this is a purchase, because it is not.
However, even with Kickstarter saying all over their site that this is not a purchase and that you are backing a venture which may or may not be successful (I believe they boast around an 80% Success), and is not a purchase and should not be treated as such, it seems some people still don't get that.
It is that kind of being deliberately obtuse about what the situation is, that I have an issue with.
The real easiest solution is, if someone can't accept the risks of backing a project, which may fail, and realize that money gets spent regardless of success or fails, that they should not get involved with crowdfunding projects, and should instead spend their money on buying things off Amazon or Steam. It's that simple.
The problem is that Kickstarter as a platform gets 5% of any successfully funded project.
Kickstarter doesn't care at all what happens after that - if the project is successful or if it fails- they already gor their 5%
This is why there are no regulations on how the money is spent or if the project was a total scam - kickstarter platform doesn't give a shit, they got their money.
Kickstarter should be shut down- as well as any other platform like it - as all they do is encourage people good will to be taken advantage of by so many scammers
When you setup a platform that is basically a scammers wet dream - where you can get money that you can keep regardless if you ever even intend to finish a project as long as you make a sales pitch good enough to get donations- yeah that shit should be shut down.
And Kickstarter doesn't care that they are enabling scammers because hey 5% of successfully funded amount for hosting a simple donation site- its such easy money.
Kickstarter platform has had 5.4 billion successfully funded projects - at 5% - they made $270 million for just hosting a donation website.
Think about that for a minute
Which makes it even more ostentatious that someone would feel entitled to a 100% refund, as Kickstarter takes a nonrefundable 5% cut, don't you think?
I personally think it's great that they have funded 5.4 billion for projects, with a very positive success rate at that, which means, the vast majority of the people starting projects and people backing them, know what they want and what they are doing
38% successful funding of all kickstarter projects to date.
That's not very positive success rate (unless you are talking about the rate of funded projects) - because 61% of projects fail to get funded
I was referring to the 91% suscess rate of fully funded projects. Only 9% of all successfully funded projects failed to provide backers with their rewards which is pretty good all things said and done.
I mean, unless you were in the 9% and had illusion that this was guaranteed as opposed to a risk.
Because, keep in mind that they are on Kickstarter because they often can't secure the funds through other means
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Definitely not a donation, they sold a pre-order with very specific terms listed in the TOS including all monies already spent building the game aren't refundable.
Hey, when you buy something that says before you buy "NO REFUNDS NO RETURNS" it is a donation. They can word it any way they like but you knowingly make the decision to give them money after they told you they will never refund your money so essentially it was a donation that you can in no legal way dispute. Go on Judge Judy and tell her you gave someone money after they told you they will under no circumstances ever return it then listen to what she has to say...
This company isn't Macy's... once you gave your money to them it was gone forever and discussing proper terminology for what exactly the transaction is/was can go on forever which is the confused state they want everyone in.
Focus @Kyleran on everything you yourself write about this game in this thread then tell us again how you feel they did "everything right" & "don't classify this one as a blatant scam".
Definitely not a donation, they sold a pre-order with very specific terms listed in the TOS including all monies already spent building the game aren't refundable.
Hey, when you buy something that says before you buy "NO REFUNDS NO RETURNS" it is a donation. They can word it any way they like but you knowingly make the decision to give them money after they told you they will never refund your money so essentially it was a donation that you can in no legal way dispute. Go on Judge Judy and tell her you gave someone money after they told you they will under no circumstances ever return it then listen to what she has to say...
This company isn't Macy's... once you gave your money to them it was gone forever and discussing proper terminology for what exactly the transaction is/was can go on forever which is the confused state they want everyone in.
Focus @Kyleran on everything you yourself write about this game in this thread then tell us again how you feel they did "everything right".
Terms of service only apply if you received the product or service.
If you brought this before Judge Judy, she would require that they provide the product and failure to do so could result in fines, and even jail time.
You have rights as a consumer, and one such right is that someone cannot sell you a product they do not have to sell that is directly called fraud, it is felony level illegal.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
To be honest, I like this idea better, as it would remove the sense of entitlement that some people have thinking that if the project fails, they should get 100% of their money back.
What is your problem with backers? Why do you feel they deserve to be punished?
Backers are asked to give xxx money, they met their obligation, you don't think its now the devs responsibility to deliver the product they said they could make with that money?
Do you also feel this way, when you buy something online and they send you a defective product or worse no product at all?
I guess this is why I use Amazon Prime because I know I will get 100% money back if the item is not exactly as described. Precisely why I wont be using Crowdfunding or giving money to these shady games until there is 100% certainty in the future.
Why do you feel like backers are being punished? They donate to a project to increase its chances of succes/launch. That is all it really is at the end of the day, they even do it out of free will. No one is really being punished here. Enticed? Yes.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
If companies just put a big red button on their store page that said PRESS TO DONATE and it had no product listing we would all be better off.
That's not what they do though. They literally have Stores, that have monthly Sales, that list Products that you can Purchase. If you look at the TOS, many of them even describe "Sale of Goods".
Yes I agree with you, they are misleading people on purpose no doubt.
There we agree, many MMO crowd funded projects do mislead people, but not this particular one IMO.
They clearly said they had no prior experience, gave 5 solid reasons not to donate (updated regularly btw), didn't run a continuous store front of pre order goods, actually stopped taking donations for a period, going dark to work on the game, and...had a bit of an arse as spokesperson who never went out of his way to win donations with his charm.
Clearly we aren't being told the whole story, but I just can't classify this one as a blantent scam.
No one can say they had no idea what they were getting into here or that the chances of a fun, playable game being delivered were even lower than most.
Despite all that Renfail was here in these very forums arguing how there is no way that they will fail to deliver the game.
How they will run the game just fine with 5k players..
How everyone who pointed out that SoL would not happen was wrong
Etc...etc...
We just gonna ignore all that completely?
Well one, he is no longer part of the "we" supposedly, and two, those three things may still happen with the present team.
What almost certainly won't happen is them hitting their target release date of Q4 2021.
You know, COVID-19 and all, right?
The universal excuse for failure these days. (Often over used)
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Just going to say, even if they say no refunds that still requires that they give you the product you paid for, no refunds simply means that you can't get a refund if you are unhappy with it.
It in no way, shape or from allows them to take your money and give you nothing or something other than what you paid for.
Case in point, selling someone a picture of a dress, and saying no refunds, is a shit move, but it is still legal, as long as you told them it was a picture of a dress.
If on the other hand, you told someone you would sell them a dress, you need to provide said dress, and even if it looks like crap on them, a sale is a sale. Much like if you Google Wish fails, still legal, even if sad.
What you can't do, is say you will sell them a dress and then provide them nothing or send a sewing needle instead
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Definitely not a donation, they sold a pre-order with very specific terms listed in the TOS including all monies already spent building the game aren't refundable.
Hey, when you buy something that says before you buy "NO REFUNDS NO RETURNS" it is a donation. They can word it any way they like but you knowingly make the decision to give them money after they told you they will never refund your money so essentially it was a donation that you can in no legal way dispute. Go on Judge Judy and tell her you gave someone money after they told you they will under no circumstances ever return it then listen to what she has to say...
This company isn't Macy's... once you gave your money to them it was gone forever and discussing proper terminology for what exactly the transaction is/was can go on forever which is the confused state they want everyone in.
Focus @Kyleran on everything you yourself write about this game in this thread then tell us again how you feel they did "everything right".
Terms of service only apply if you received the product or service.
If you brought this before Judge Judy, she would require that they provide the product and failure to do so could result in fines, and even jail time.
You have rights as a consumer, and one such right is that someone cannot sell you a product they do not have to sell that is directly called fraud, it is felony level illegal.
Under their TOS which the backer of their own free will agrees to clearly states what they have to deliver, when they have to deliver (not guaranteed of course) and what refund rights the consumer has.
You are correct, it will take a court of law to decide whether or not this "contract" is legal or not.
The ongoing lawsuit against COE could very well factor in assuming it ever gets heard in front of a judge, but my guess is Xsolla will offer to settle first.
Oh, I definitely did not say they did everything "right", heck I never believed they had a chance of pulling it off, especially considering the transparency the had in terms of capability.
I will confess though, Mark Jacobs fooled me, I really did believe he could pull off what he said he would, certainly not in two years, but never figured I'd still be waiting to find out 8 years later. (And counting)
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Litteraly reads like it was written by Gamigo - how they've been saying they have exciting announcements about Rift.. since 2018 and 3 years later they lay off the devs!
But they are still working on it!
I'd agree if that was the only statement, but as a backer I am sure you read the other announcement right?
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
To be honest, I like this idea better, as it would remove the sense of entitlement that some people have thinking that if the project fails, they should get 100% of their money back.
What is your problem with backers? Why do you feel they deserve to be punished?
Backers are asked to give xxx money, they met their obligation, you don't think its now the devs responsibility to deliver the product they said they could make with that money?
Do you also feel this way, when you buy something online and they send you a defective product or worse no product at all?
I guess this is why I use Amazon Prime because I know I will get 100% money back if the item is not exactly as described. Precisely why I wont be using Crowdfunding or giving money to these shady games until there is 100% certainty in the future.
Why do you feel like backers are being punished? They donate to a project to increase its chances of succes/launch. That is all it really is at the end of the day, they even do it out of free will. No one is really being punished here. Enticed? Yes.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
If companies just put a big red button on their store page that said PRESS TO DONATE and it had no product listing we would all be better off.
That's not what they do though. They literally have Stores, that have monthly Sales, that list Products that you can Purchase. If you look at the TOS, many of them even describe "Sale of Goods".
Yes I agree with you, they are misleading people on purpose no doubt.
There we agree, many MMO crowd funded projects do mislead people, but not this particular one IMO.
They clearly said they had no prior experience, gave 5 solid reasons not to donate (updated regularly btw), didn't run a continuous store front of pre order goods, actually stopped taking donations for a period, going dark to work on the game, and...had a bit of an arse as spokesperson who never went out of his way to win donations with his charm.
Clearly we aren't being told the whole story, but I just can't classify this one as a blantent scam.
No one can say they had no idea what they were getting into here or that the chances of a fun, playable game being delivered were even lower than most.
Despite all that Renfail was here in these very forums arguing how there is no way that they will fail to deliver the game.
How they will run the game just fine with 5k players..
How everyone who pointed out that SoL would not happen was wrong
Etc...etc...
We just gonna ignore all that completely?
No. I think when people "talk the talk" they need to "walk the walk" and if they can't then they deserve what comes...
That said though... its quite different from claiming that he paid himself and this led to the company split.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
To be honest, I like this idea better, as it would remove the sense of entitlement that some people have thinking that if the project fails, they should get 100% of their money back.
What is your problem with backers? Why do you feel they deserve to be punished?
Backers are asked to give xxx money, they met their obligation, you don't think its now the devs responsibility to deliver the product they said they could make with that money?
Do you also feel this way, when you buy something online and they send you a defective product or worse no product at all?
I guess this is why I use Amazon Prime because I know I will get 100% money back if the item is not exactly as described. Precisely why I wont be using Crowdfunding or giving money to these shady games until there is 100% certainty in the future.
Why do you feel like backers are being punished? They donate to a project to increase its chances of succes/launch. That is all it really is at the end of the day, they even do it out of free will. No one is really being punished here. Enticed? Yes.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
If companies just put a big red button on their store page that said PRESS TO DONATE and it had no product listing we would all be better off.
That's not what they do though. They literally have Stores, that have monthly Sales, that list Products that you can Purchase. If you look at the TOS, many of them even describe "Sale of Goods".
Yes I agree with you, they are misleading people on purpose no doubt.
There we agree, many MMO crowd funded projects do mislead people, but not this particular one IMO.
They clearly said they had no prior experience, gave 5 solid reasons not to donate (updated regularly btw), didn't run a continuous store front of pre order goods, actually stopped taking donations for a period, going dark to work on the game, and...had a bit of an arse as spokesperson who never went out of his way to win donations with his charm.
Clearly we aren't being told the whole story, but I just can't classify this one as a blantent scam.
No one can say they had no idea what they were getting into here or that the chances of a fun, playable game being delivered were even lower than most.
Despite all that Renfail was here in these very forums arguing how there is no way that they will fail to deliver the game.
How they will run the game just fine with 5k players..
How everyone who pointed out that SoL would not happen was wrong
Etc...etc...
We just gonna ignore all that completely?
Well one, he is no longer part of the "we" supposedly, and two, those three things may still happen with the present team.
What almost certainly won't happen is them hitting their target release date of Q4 2021.
You know, COVID-19 and all, right?
The universal excuse for failure these days. (Often over used)
Agree... but please do see the Dev quote I linked earlier. That was from today after the internal and external announcements. They apparently believe they can still hit end of year. That that however you will...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Terms of service only apply if you received the product or service.
If you brought this before Judge Judy, she would require that they provide the product and failure to do so could result in fines, and even jail time.
You have rights as a consumer, and one such right is that someone cannot sell you a product they do not have to sell that is directly called fraud, it is felony level illegal.
Only if the "product" was an actual product or a classic transaction similar the everything else in the real world but not when it comes to games for these reasons...
Imagine calling a plumber for a leaky sink then him telling you...
"Give me money upfront, sign this contract agreeing to everything and just letting you know I keep this money even if I don't do anything from this point forward".
Why are games worded "buy" when you buy them but you never really own them? They cover that in terms of service. TOS for almost every game states that YOU DO NOT OWN ANYTHING. Yet we have the games in our steam library and feel like we own them. We are basically renting games we "buy" cause no one would ever "rent" anything for $60+ so they make us believe we're buying them.
These scamstarter games took it to the next level though... they don't actually ever have to provide any form of product for several reasons... their terms of service are written to cover themselves in every way so if anyone ever disputes something they can flash what you agreed to in your face and in the case of this game they can point to to their website in big red letters "NO REFUNDS". NO REFUNDS under ANY circumstances means exactly that even if they fail to deliver a product.
"If you brought this before Judge Judy, she would require that they
provide the product and failure to do so could result in fines, and even
jail time."
The loophole for scamstarters is "we're still working on it and intend to deliver the final product when it's completed" knowing very well they can keep that development cycle going forever.
They have all their bases covered through extensive legal research which is why's it's up to us to point out funny business when we see it.
Terms of service only apply if you received the product or service.
If you brought this before Judge Judy, she would require that they provide the product and failure to do so could result in fines, and even jail time.
You have rights as a consumer, and one such right is that someone cannot sell you a product they do not have to sell that is directly called fraud, it is felony level illegal.
Only if the "product" was an actual product or a classic transaction similar the everything else in the real world but not when it comes to games for these reasons...
Imagine calling a plumber for a leaky sink then him telling you...
"Give me money upfront, sign this contract agreeing to everything and just letting you know I keep this money even if I don't do anything from this point forward".
Why are games worded "buy" when you buy them but you never really own them? They cover that in terms of service. TOS for almost every game states that YOU DO NOT OWN ANYTHING. Yet we have the games in our steam library and feel like we own them. We are basically renting games we "buy" cause no one would ever "rent" anything for $60+ so they make us believe we're buying them.
These scamstarter games took it to the next level though... they don't actually ever have to provide any form of product for several reasons... their terms of service are written to cover themselves in every way so if anyone ever disputes something they can flash what you agreed to in your face and in the case of this game they can point to to their website in big red letters "NO REFUNDS". NO REFUNDS under ANY circumstances means exactly that even if they fail to deliver a product.
"If you brought this before Judge Judy, she would require that they
provide the product and failure to do so could result in fines, and even
jail time."
The loophole for scamstarters is "we're still working on it and intend to deliver the final product when it's completed" knowing very well they can keep that development cycle going forever.
They have all their bases covered through extensive legal research which is why's it's up to us to point out funny business when we see it.
Games are more GaaS, which means that you have a licence to use the product, but do not own it.
But, again, the TOS does not apply unless you received the good or service.
To use a service example, a company cannot sell you roadside assistance as a service if they cannot provide you with road side assistance, no matter what they say in the TOS.
Also, at least the states, ba company cannot require that you give up your consumer protections to do business with them that is also illegal in and of its own right.
As for CoE, that was done through a crowd fund platform, which has you sign that you understand and agree that this is not the sale of goods or services, and that you are donating to a project that may or may not be successful.
Not sure about his other venture for fundraising, but since his brother is a lawyer, and JW seems as sly as a eel swminng through swamp land, I would wager he did his best to make sure that he was not locked down to selling a product, but always calling it a fundraiser.
I do hope that JW and everyone involved in COE get nailed to the wall as an example to ward off others from trying the same.
While I have little pity for people who feel entitled and are not responsible, I have a personal hate for scam artists, even if I try to give everyone a chance to prove their good faith
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Just for the record, you cannot claim continual development for a sale, that is why pharmaceutical companies cannot sell you a cure that they are working on developing,and simply say "we are working on it" to stall for time.
The process is simple. You ask them for the product. Or a deadline by which the product can be expected to be delivered.
If they fail to provide the product by the deadline, or fail to provide a date by which you can expect to receive the product, you can contact your credit agency and demand a charge back on that service. If they want to fight it, they will have to provide the product, or provide to the credit agency proof of when it will be delivered, otherwise they will not only have to pay, they can be fined as well, and stuck with other additional fees and fines, this is why retailers make every effort to ensure that they can prove you got what you paid for, so they can challenge a chargeback, but, simply saying no refunds will not be sufficient, because they need to prove you received the product or service, before they can enact any kind of no refund policy.
There is a world of difference between backing a pipe dream and buying a product.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
To be honest, I like this idea better, as it would remove the sense of entitlement that some people have thinking that if the project fails, they should get 100% of their money back.
What is your problem with backers? Why do you feel they deserve to be punished?
Backers are asked to give xxx money, they met their obligation, you don't think its now the devs responsibility to deliver the product they said they could make with that money?
Do you also feel this way, when you buy something online and they send you a defective product or worse no product at all?
I guess this is why I use Amazon Prime because I know I will get 100% money back if the item is not exactly as described. Precisely why I wont be using Crowdfunding or giving money to these shady games until there is 100% certainty in the future.
Why do you feel like backers are being punished? They donate to a project to increase its chances of succes/launch. That is all it really is at the end of the day, they even do it out of free will. No one is really being punished here. Enticed? Yes.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
If companies just put a big red button on their store page that said PRESS TO DONATE and it had no product listing we would all be better off.
That's not what they do though. They literally have Stores, that have monthly Sales, that list Products that you can Purchase. If you look at the TOS, many of them even describe "Sale of Goods".
Yes I agree with you, they are misleading people on purpose no doubt.
There we agree, many MMO crowd funded projects do mislead people, but not this particular one IMO.
They clearly said they had no prior experience, gave 5 solid reasons not to donate (updated regularly btw), didn't run a continuous store front of pre order goods, actually stopped taking donations for a period, going dark to work on the game, and...had a bit of an arse as spokesperson who never went out of his way to win donations with his charm.
Clearly we aren't being told the whole story, but I just can't classify this one as a blantent scam.
No one can say they had no idea what they were getting into here or that the chances of a fun, playable game being delivered were even lower than most.
Despite all that Renfail was here in these very forums arguing how there is no way that they will fail to deliver the game.
How they will run the game just fine with 5k players..
How everyone who pointed out that SoL would not happen was wrong
Etc...etc...
We just gonna ignore all that completely?
Well one, he is no longer part of the "we" supposedly, and two, those three things may still happen with the present team.
What almost certainly won't happen is them hitting their target release date of Q4 2021.
You know, COVID-19 and all, right?
The universal excuse for failure these days. (Often over used)
Agree... but please do see the Dev quote I linked earlier. That was from today after the internal and external announcements. They apparently believe they can still hit end of year. That that however you will...
Page 13 probably wasn't the best place for such information, probably deserved a new thread even.
While you may have read more info on the Discord or alpha forums the website has a fairly non committal statement on it.
"At the current pace of production Stormhaven is confident in its ability to bring the product to launch in a timely manner."
MJ, CR and many others have been saying similar for many years.
What exactly is "timely," before the end of time I guess.
I think your paraphrase (quote?) of the Discord mentioned delivering "something" before years end, so again, further elaboration required.
Also, the big question, why the delay on this announcement of new management, 6 months after it actually happened?
Think I'll keep the feathers close by and the tar warm.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
To be honest, I like this idea better, as it would remove the sense of entitlement that some people have thinking that if the project fails, they should get 100% of their money back.
What is your problem with backers? Why do you feel they deserve to be punished?
Backers are asked to give xxx money, they met their obligation, you don't think its now the devs responsibility to deliver the product they said they could make with that money?
Do you also feel this way, when you buy something online and they send you a defective product or worse no product at all?
I guess this is why I use Amazon Prime because I know I will get 100% money back if the item is not exactly as described. Precisely why I wont be using Crowdfunding or giving money to these shady games until there is 100% certainty in the future.
Why do you feel like backers are being punished? They donate to a project to increase its chances of succes/launch. That is all it really is at the end of the day, they even do it out of free will. No one is really being punished here. Enticed? Yes.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
If companies just put a big red button on their store page that said PRESS TO DONATE and it had no product listing we would all be better off.
That's not what they do though. They literally have Stores, that have monthly Sales, that list Products that you can Purchase. If you look at the TOS, many of them even describe "Sale of Goods".
Yes I agree with you, they are misleading people on purpose no doubt.
There we agree, many MMO crowd funded projects do mislead people, but not this particular one IMO.
They clearly said they had no prior experience, gave 5 solid reasons not to donate (updated regularly btw), didn't run a continuous store front of pre order goods, actually stopped taking donations for a period, going dark to work on the game, and...had a bit of an arse as spokesperson who never went out of his way to win donations with his charm.
Clearly we aren't being told the whole story, but I just can't classify this one as a blantent scam.
No one can say they had no idea what they were getting into here or that the chances of a fun, playable game being delivered were even lower than most.
Despite all that Renfail was here in these very forums arguing how there is no way that they will fail to deliver the game.
How they will run the game just fine with 5k players..
How everyone who pointed out that SoL would not happen was wrong
Etc...etc...
We just gonna ignore all that completely?
Well one, he is no longer part of the "we" supposedly, and two, those three things may still happen with the present team.
What almost certainly won't happen is them hitting their target release date of Q4 2021.
You know, COVID-19 and all, right?
The universal excuse for failure these days. (Often over used)
Agree... but please do see the Dev quote I linked earlier. That was from today after the internal and external announcements. They apparently believe they can still hit end of year. That that however you will...
Page 13 probably wasn't the best place for such information, probably deserved a new thread even.
While you may have read more info on the Discord or alpha forums the website has a fairly non committal statement on it.
"At the current pace of production Stormhaven is confident in its ability to bring the product to launch in a timely manner."
MJ, CR and many others have been saying similar for many years.
What exactly is "timely," before the end of time I guess.
I think your paraphrase (quote?) of the Discord mentioned delivering "something" before years end, so again, further elaboration required.
Also, the big question, why the delay on this announcement of new management, 6 months after it actually happened?
Think I'll keep the feathers close by and the tar warm.
As always... companies should Do what they say they will do and roughly when they say they will do it. No idea what state the game is in other than Remsleep's statement that its missing 98% of the promised features.
I think there is plenty of opportunity for tar and feathers. Just not ready to do so under the pretense/claim that Tim took the money and ran as some have alleged.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Why are we even talking about Kickstarter in this thread?
Saga of Lucimia did NOT use Kickstarter, ever. From the beginning, they raised money using direct payments made through their website store.
This whole KS debate is completely off-topic and should be moved to the subforum of a game that that actually used it.
They did use Indegogo and raised something like $3800
But some folks want to make this about a greater Crusade. All I know is that Tim left the game as of Sept...
Why are you providing cover for this guy? I'm starting to think you are some how tied to this project or you know Tim in real life here. It is really weird how much time you have wasted trying to deflect the criticism this project rightly deserves.
Scam or not, this project will never see the light of day. They have been working on this since 2015 with nothing more to show than a glorified tech demo. I don't get why so many people are giving cover to a person who clearly was a total jerk on these forums as well? Why do you care? What benefit are you getting here by trying play the role of forum cop? Who cares if people want to label this a scam, or make snide remarks about Tim's character? The guy deserves every single bit of it.
You're damn right people are on a crusade too! We are fugging tired of these snake oil salesman trying to sell us empty promises basically. Enough is enough already. This project deserves to be criticized into oblivion.
This is a perfect example of how NOT to go after a company. No explanation needed for the 99% of rational folks. For the other 1%... you keep doing you. Its fun to watch.
When people start losing money, they get irrational. Keep making excuses though for this guy, it is fun to watch lol.
You are 100% correct on the first part but the second is just laughable. Saying: "Show me proof that he potentially committed FRAUD by paying himself money that he said he would not. If you have proof I will join in" Is only "making excuses for this guy" in the eyes of an irrational person.
Like I said, keep doing you though.
Now you are making excuses for your excuses lol. If it walks like a duck....
Why are we even talking about Kickstarter in this thread?
Saga of Lucimia did NOT use Kickstarter, ever. From the beginning, they raised money using direct payments made through their website store.
This whole KS debate is completely off-topic and should be moved to the subforum of a game that that actually used it.
They did use Indegogo and raised something like $3800
But some folks want to make this about a greater Crusade. All I know is that Tim left the game as of Sept...
Why are you providing cover for this guy? I'm starting to think you are some how tied to this project or you know Tim in real life here. It is really weird how much time you have wasted trying to deflect the criticism this project rightly deserves.
Scam or not, this project will never see the light of day. They have been working on this since 2015 with nothing more to show than a glorified tech demo. I don't get why so many people are giving cover to a person who clearly was a total jerk on these forums as well? Why do you care? What benefit are you getting here by trying play the role of forum cop? Who cares if people want to label this a scam, or make snide remarks about Tim's character? The guy deserves every single bit of it.
You're damn right people are on a crusade too! We are fugging tired of these snake oil salesman trying to sell us empty promises basically. Enough is enough already. This project deserves to be criticized into oblivion.
This is a perfect example of how NOT to go after a company. No explanation needed for the 99% of rational folks. For the other 1%... you keep doing you. Its fun to watch.
When people start losing money, they get irrational. Keep making excuses though for this guy, it is fun to watch lol.
You are 100% correct on the first part but the second is just laughable. Saying: "Show me proof that he potentially committed FRAUD by paying himself money that he said he would not. If you have proof I will join in" Is only "making excuses for this guy" in the eyes of an irrational person.
Like I said, keep doing you though.
Now you are making excuses for your excuses lol. If it walks like a duck....
Sure BigGuy... how about you go to the thread in our forums where their Community Manager just posted and ask her some direct questions?
Or you can of course just keep shouting at the air...
I mean, I can handhold you guys on how to PROPERLY do this stuff if you need...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Why are we even talking about Kickstarter in this thread?
Saga of Lucimia did NOT use Kickstarter, ever. From the beginning, they raised money using direct payments made through their website store.
This whole KS debate is completely off-topic and should be moved to the subforum of a game that that actually used it.
They did use Indegogo and raised something like $3800
But some folks want to make this about a greater Crusade. All I know is that Tim left the game as of Sept...
Why are you providing cover for this guy? I'm starting to think you are some how tied to this project or you know Tim in real life here. It is really weird how much time you have wasted trying to deflect the criticism this project rightly deserves.
Scam or not, this project will never see the light of day. They have been working on this since 2015 with nothing more to show than a glorified tech demo. I don't get why so many people are giving cover to a person who clearly was a total jerk on these forums as well? Why do you care? What benefit are you getting here by trying play the role of forum cop? Who cares if people want to label this a scam, or make snide remarks about Tim's character? The guy deserves every single bit of it.
You're damn right people are on a crusade too! We are fugging tired of these snake oil salesman trying to sell us empty promises basically. Enough is enough already. This project deserves to be criticized into oblivion.
This is a perfect example of how NOT to go after a company. No explanation needed for the 99% of rational folks. For the other 1%... you keep doing you. Its fun to watch.
When people start losing money, they get irrational. Keep making excuses though for this guy, it is fun to watch lol.
You are 100% correct on the first part but the second is just laughable. Saying: "Show me proof that he potentially committed FRAUD by paying himself money that he said he would not. If you have proof I will join in" Is only "making excuses for this guy" in the eyes of an irrational person.
Like I said, keep doing you though.
Now you are making excuses for your excuses lol. If it walks like a duck....
Sure BigGuy... how about you go to the thread in our forums where their Community Manager just posted and ask her some direct questions?
Or you can of course just keep shouting at the air...
I mean, I can handhold you guys on how to PROPERLY do this stuff if you need...
Who makes you the authority on how to properly criticize projects? I still think it is funny how much you keep shilling for these guys. Maybe you are a mole for this company possibly?
Why are we even talking about Kickstarter in this thread?
Saga of Lucimia did NOT use Kickstarter, ever. From the beginning, they raised money using direct payments made through their website store.
This whole KS debate is completely off-topic and should be moved to the subforum of a game that that actually used it.
They did use Indegogo and raised something like $3800
But some folks want to make this about a greater Crusade. All I know is that Tim left the game as of Sept...
Why are you providing cover for this guy? I'm starting to think you are some how tied to this project or you know Tim in real life here. It is really weird how much time you have wasted trying to deflect the criticism this project rightly deserves.
Scam or not, this project will never see the light of day. They have been working on this since 2015 with nothing more to show than a glorified tech demo. I don't get why so many people are giving cover to a person who clearly was a total jerk on these forums as well? Why do you care? What benefit are you getting here by trying play the role of forum cop? Who cares if people want to label this a scam, or make snide remarks about Tim's character? The guy deserves every single bit of it.
You're damn right people are on a crusade too! We are fugging tired of these snake oil salesman trying to sell us empty promises basically. Enough is enough already. This project deserves to be criticized into oblivion.
This is a perfect example of how NOT to go after a company. No explanation needed for the 99% of rational folks. For the other 1%... you keep doing you. Its fun to watch.
When people start losing money, they get irrational. Keep making excuses though for this guy, it is fun to watch lol.
You are 100% correct on the first part but the second is just laughable. Saying: "Show me proof that he potentially committed FRAUD by paying himself money that he said he would not. If you have proof I will join in" Is only "making excuses for this guy" in the eyes of an irrational person.
Like I said, keep doing you though.
Now you are making excuses for your excuses lol. If it walks like a duck....
Sure BigGuy... how about you go to the thread in our forums where their Community Manager just posted and ask her some direct questions?
Or you can of course just keep shouting at the air...
I mean, I can handhold you guys on how to PROPERLY do this stuff if you need...
Who makes you the authority on how to properly criticize projects? I still think it is funny how much you keep shilling for these guys. Maybe you are a mole for this company possibly?
SO you literally won't click a few forums over and ask her?
Very revealing.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
To be honest, I like this idea better, as it would remove the sense of entitlement that some people have thinking that if the project fails, they should get 100% of their money back.
What is your problem with backers? Why do you feel they deserve to be punished?
Backers are asked to give xxx money, they met their obligation, you don't think its now the devs responsibility to deliver the product they said they could make with that money?
Do you also feel this way, when you buy something online and they send you a defective product or worse no product at all?
I guess this is why I use Amazon Prime because I know I will get 100% money back if the item is not exactly as described. Precisely why I wont be using Crowdfunding or giving money to these shady games until there is 100% certainty in the future.
Why do you feel like backers are being punished? They donate to a project to increase its chances of succes/launch. That is all it really is at the end of the day, they even do it out of free will. No one is really being punished here. Enticed? Yes.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
If companies just put a big red button on their store page that said PRESS TO DONATE and it had no product listing we would all be better off.
That's not what they do though. They literally have Stores, that have monthly Sales, that list Products that you can Purchase. If you look at the TOS, many of them even describe "Sale of Goods".
Yes I agree with you, they are misleading people on purpose no doubt.
There we agree, many MMO crowd funded projects do mislead people, but not this particular one IMO.
They clearly said they had no prior experience, gave 5 solid reasons not to donate (updated regularly btw), didn't run a continuous store front of pre order goods, actually stopped taking donations for a period, going dark to work on the game, and...had a bit of an arse as spokesperson who never went out of his way to win donations with his charm.
Clearly we aren't being told the whole story, but I just can't classify this one as a blantent scam.
No one can say they had no idea what they were getting into here or that the chances of a fun, playable game being delivered were even lower than most.
Despite all that Renfail was here in these very forums arguing how there is no way that they will fail to deliver the game.
How they will run the game just fine with 5k players..
How everyone who pointed out that SoL would not happen was wrong
Etc...etc...
We just gonna ignore all that completely?
Well one, he is no longer part of the "we" supposedly, and two, those three things may still happen with the present team.
What almost certainly won't happen is them hitting their target release date of Q4 2021.
You know, COVID-19 and all, right?
The universal excuse for failure these days. (Often over used)
If I hear "... in these unprecedented times" phrase used one more damn time....
/triggered
If they said that it would be interesting as they were a remote team prior to COVID. Of ALL the studios out there, COVID should impact this one the least (unless of course critical members got the virus).
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Why are we even talking about Kickstarter in this thread?
Saga of Lucimia did NOT use Kickstarter, ever. From the beginning, they raised money using direct payments made through their website store.
This whole KS debate is completely off-topic and should be moved to the subforum of a game that that actually used it.
They did use Indegogo and raised something like $3800
But some folks want to make this about a greater Crusade. All I know is that Tim left the game as of Sept...
Why are you providing cover for this guy? I'm starting to think you are some how tied to this project or you know Tim in real life here. It is really weird how much time you have wasted trying to deflect the criticism this project rightly deserves.
Scam or not, this project will never see the light of day. They have been working on this since 2015 with nothing more to show than a glorified tech demo. I don't get why so many people are giving cover to a person who clearly was a total jerk on these forums as well? Why do you care? What benefit are you getting here by trying play the role of forum cop? Who cares if people want to label this a scam, or make snide remarks about Tim's character? The guy deserves every single bit of it.
You're damn right people are on a crusade too! We are fugging tired of these snake oil salesman trying to sell us empty promises basically. Enough is enough already. This project deserves to be criticized into oblivion.
This is a perfect example of how NOT to go after a company. No explanation needed for the 99% of rational folks. For the other 1%... you keep doing you. Its fun to watch.
When people start losing money, they get irrational. Keep making excuses though for this guy, it is fun to watch lol.
You are 100% correct on the first part but the second is just laughable. Saying: "Show me proof that he potentially committed FRAUD by paying himself money that he said he would not. If you have proof I will join in" Is only "making excuses for this guy" in the eyes of an irrational person.
Like I said, keep doing you though.
Now you are making excuses for your excuses lol. If it walks like a duck....
Sure BigGuy... how about you go to the thread in our forums where their Community Manager just posted and ask her some direct questions?
Or you can of course just keep shouting at the air...
I mean, I can handhold you guys on how to PROPERLY do this stuff if you need...
Who makes you the authority on how to properly criticize projects? I still think it is funny how much you keep shilling for these guys. Maybe you are a mole for this company possibly?
SO you literally won't click a few forums over and ask her?
Very revealing.
I've been looking over your post history and you have some huge red flags when it comes to this game. I'm firmly convinced that you have some kind of involvement with this project that goes beyond just being an early backer. Even now, you're still shilling hard for these guys lol.
I'm reading the thread Mr. Obvious, I still don't care, it's just more corporate BS to try to smooth over customer fears. You act like companies always tell the truth to their customers as well.
Why are we even talking about Kickstarter in this thread?
Saga of Lucimia did NOT use Kickstarter, ever. From the beginning, they raised money using direct payments made through their website store.
This whole KS debate is completely off-topic and should be moved to the subforum of a game that that actually used it.
They did use Indegogo and raised something like $3800
But some folks want to make this about a greater Crusade. All I know is that Tim left the game as of Sept...
Why are you providing cover for this guy? I'm starting to think you are some how tied to this project or you know Tim in real life here. It is really weird how much time you have wasted trying to deflect the criticism this project rightly deserves.
Scam or not, this project will never see the light of day. They have been working on this since 2015 with nothing more to show than a glorified tech demo. I don't get why so many people are giving cover to a person who clearly was a total jerk on these forums as well? Why do you care? What benefit are you getting here by trying play the role of forum cop? Who cares if people want to label this a scam, or make snide remarks about Tim's character? The guy deserves every single bit of it.
You're damn right people are on a crusade too! We are fugging tired of these snake oil salesman trying to sell us empty promises basically. Enough is enough already. This project deserves to be criticized into oblivion.
This is a perfect example of how NOT to go after a company. No explanation needed for the 99% of rational folks. For the other 1%... you keep doing you. Its fun to watch.
When people start losing money, they get irrational. Keep making excuses though for this guy, it is fun to watch lol.
You are 100% correct on the first part but the second is just laughable. Saying: "Show me proof that he potentially committed FRAUD by paying himself money that he said he would not. If you have proof I will join in" Is only "making excuses for this guy" in the eyes of an irrational person.
Like I said, keep doing you though.
Now you are making excuses for your excuses lol. If it walks like a duck....
Sure BigGuy... how about you go to the thread in our forums where their Community Manager just posted and ask her some direct questions?
Or you can of course just keep shouting at the air...
I mean, I can handhold you guys on how to PROPERLY do this stuff if you need...
Who makes you the authority on how to properly criticize projects? I still think it is funny how much you keep shilling for these guys. Maybe you are a mole for this company possibly?
SO you literally won't click a few forums over and ask her?
Very revealing.
I've been looking over your post history and you have some huge red flags when it comes to this game. I'm firmly convinced that you have some kind of involvement with this project that goes beyond just being an early backer. Even now, you're still shilling hard for these guys lol.
I'm reading the thread Mr. Obvious, I still don't care, it's just more corporate BS to try to smooth over customer fears. You act like companies always tell the truth to their customers as well.
The more you talk the more you reveal ignorance. Both in what you say and in what you are too afraid to ask the actual CM. Keep going I'll go warm up the popcorn.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Why are we even talking about Kickstarter in this thread?
Saga of Lucimia did NOT use Kickstarter, ever. From the beginning, they raised money using direct payments made through their website store.
This whole KS debate is completely off-topic and should be moved to the subforum of a game that that actually used it.
They did use Indegogo and raised something like $3800
But some folks want to make this about a greater Crusade. All I know is that Tim left the game as of Sept...
Why are you providing cover for this guy? I'm starting to think you are some how tied to this project or you know Tim in real life here. It is really weird how much time you have wasted trying to deflect the criticism this project rightly deserves.
Scam or not, this project will never see the light of day. They have been working on this since 2015 with nothing more to show than a glorified tech demo. I don't get why so many people are giving cover to a person who clearly was a total jerk on these forums as well? Why do you care? What benefit are you getting here by trying play the role of forum cop? Who cares if people want to label this a scam, or make snide remarks about Tim's character? The guy deserves every single bit of it.
You're damn right people are on a crusade too! We are fugging tired of these snake oil salesman trying to sell us empty promises basically. Enough is enough already. This project deserves to be criticized into oblivion.
This is a perfect example of how NOT to go after a company. No explanation needed for the 99% of rational folks. For the other 1%... you keep doing you. Its fun to watch.
When people start losing money, they get irrational. Keep making excuses though for this guy, it is fun to watch lol.
You are 100% correct on the first part but the second is just laughable. Saying: "Show me proof that he potentially committed FRAUD by paying himself money that he said he would not. If you have proof I will join in" Is only "making excuses for this guy" in the eyes of an irrational person.
Like I said, keep doing you though.
Now you are making excuses for your excuses lol. If it walks like a duck....
Sure BigGuy... how about you go to the thread in our forums where their Community Manager just posted and ask her some direct questions?
Or you can of course just keep shouting at the air...
I mean, I can handhold you guys on how to PROPERLY do this stuff if you need...
Who makes you the authority on how to properly criticize projects? I still think it is funny how much you keep shilling for these guys. Maybe you are a mole for this company possibly?
SO you literally won't click a few forums over and ask her?
Very revealing.
I've been looking over your post history and you have some huge red flags when it comes to this game. I'm firmly convinced that you have some kind of involvement with this project that goes beyond just being an early backer. Even now, you're still shilling hard for these guys lol.
I'm reading the thread Mr. Obvious, I still don't care, it's just more corporate BS to try to smooth over customer fears. You act like companies always tell the truth to their customers as well.
The more you talk the more you reveal ignorance. Both in what you say and in what you are too afraid to ask the actual CM. Keep going I'll go warm up the popcorn.
I've asked Tim tough questions for years and he completely deflected. I've asked this CM you keep shilling questions on her Twitch channel all the time and I always get the same answer. "We aren't ready to reveal that information as this time"
What would make you think that we would get honest answers as to what is really going on from a CM? Were you like born yesterday? You seem like the typical type of a gamer these scam artists pretty much prey on. Keep shilling though, it is fun to watch.
Why are we even talking about Kickstarter in this thread?
Saga of Lucimia did NOT use Kickstarter, ever. From the beginning, they raised money using direct payments made through their website store.
This whole KS debate is completely off-topic and should be moved to the subforum of a game that that actually used it.
They did use Indegogo and raised something like $3800
But some folks want to make this about a greater Crusade. All I know is that Tim left the game as of Sept...
Why are you providing cover for this guy? I'm starting to think you are some how tied to this project or you know Tim in real life here. It is really weird how much time you have wasted trying to deflect the criticism this project rightly deserves.
Scam or not, this project will never see the light of day. They have been working on this since 2015 with nothing more to show than a glorified tech demo. I don't get why so many people are giving cover to a person who clearly was a total jerk on these forums as well? Why do you care? What benefit are you getting here by trying play the role of forum cop? Who cares if people want to label this a scam, or make snide remarks about Tim's character? The guy deserves every single bit of it.
You're damn right people are on a crusade too! We are fugging tired of these snake oil salesman trying to sell us empty promises basically. Enough is enough already. This project deserves to be criticized into oblivion.
This is a perfect example of how NOT to go after a company. No explanation needed for the 99% of rational folks. For the other 1%... you keep doing you. Its fun to watch.
When people start losing money, they get irrational. Keep making excuses though for this guy, it is fun to watch lol.
You are 100% correct on the first part but the second is just laughable. Saying: "Show me proof that he potentially committed FRAUD by paying himself money that he said he would not. If you have proof I will join in" Is only "making excuses for this guy" in the eyes of an irrational person.
Like I said, keep doing you though.
Now you are making excuses for your excuses lol. If it walks like a duck....
Sure BigGuy... how about you go to the thread in our forums where their Community Manager just posted and ask her some direct questions?
Or you can of course just keep shouting at the air...
I mean, I can handhold you guys on how to PROPERLY do this stuff if you need...
Who makes you the authority on how to properly criticize projects? I still think it is funny how much you keep shilling for these guys. Maybe you are a mole for this company possibly?
SO you literally won't click a few forums over and ask her?
Very revealing.
I've been looking over your post history and you have some huge red flags when it comes to this game. I'm firmly convinced that you have some kind of involvement with this project that goes beyond just being an early backer. Even now, you're still shilling hard for these guys lol.
I'm reading the thread Mr. Obvious, I still don't care, it's just more corporate BS to try to smooth over customer fears. You act like companies always tell the truth to their customers as well.
The more you talk the more you reveal ignorance. Both in what you say and in what you are too afraid to ask the actual CM. Keep going I'll go warm up the popcorn.
I've asked Tim tough questions for years and he completely deflected. I've asked this CM you keep shilling questions on her Twitch channel all the time and I always get the same answer. "We aren't ready to reveal that information as this time"
What would make you think that we would get honest answers as to what is really going on from a CM? Where you like born yesterday? You seem like the typical type of a gamer these scam artists pretty much prey on. Keep shilling though, it is fun to watch.
Munch... So you literally won't click 2 forums over and ask her your questions? In all likelihood she dodges but by not even ASKING one must question your credibility Munch... Think I'm a shill Munch... As usual no examples... Munch... Just talking at the air.. Munch...
Going to get a drink to wash down the popcorn.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
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Comments
I am not sure, that is something their customers would have to settle, which is something that I am not, as I agreed with their list of reasons not to give them money ?
https://stormhavenstudios.com/#/terms-of-servce/
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
What almost certainly won't happen is them hitting their target release date of Q4 2021.
You know, COVID-19 and all, right?
The universal excuse for failure these days. (Often over used)
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
You are correct, it will take a court of law to decide whether or not this "contract" is legal or not.
The ongoing lawsuit against COE could very well factor in assuming it ever gets heard in front of a judge, but my guess is Xsolla will offer to settle first.
Oh, I definitely did not say they did everything "right", heck I never believed they had a chance of pulling it off, especially considering the transparency the had in terms of capability.
I will confess though, Mark Jacobs fooled me, I really did believe he could pull off what he said he would, certainly not in two years, but never figured I'd still be waiting to find out 8 years later. (And counting)
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
That said though... its quite different from claiming that he paid himself and this led to the company split.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
While you may have read more info on the Discord or alpha forums the website has a fairly non committal statement on it.
"At the current pace of production Stormhaven is confident in its ability to bring the product to launch in a timely manner."
MJ, CR and many others have been saying similar for many years.
What exactly is "timely," before the end of time I guess.
I think your paraphrase (quote?) of the Discord mentioned delivering "something" before years end, so again, further elaboration required.
Also, the big question, why the delay on this announcement of new management, 6 months after it actually happened?
Think I'll keep the feathers close by and the tar warm.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I think there is plenty of opportunity for tar and feathers. Just not ready to do so under the pretense/claim that Tim took the money and ran as some have alleged.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Or you can of course just keep shouting at the air...
I mean, I can handhold you guys on how to PROPERLY do this stuff if you need...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Very revealing.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I'm reading the thread Mr. Obvious, I still don't care, it's just more corporate BS to try to smooth over customer fears. You act like companies always tell the truth to their customers as well.
Keep going
I'll go warm up the popcorn.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
What would make you think that we would get honest answers as to what is really going on from a CM? Were you like born yesterday? You seem like the typical type of a gamer these scam artists pretty much prey on. Keep shilling though, it is fun to watch.
edit: typos
So you literally won't click 2 forums over and ask her your questions? In all likelihood she dodges but by not even ASKING one must question your credibility
Munch...
Think I'm a shill
Munch...
As usual no examples...
Munch...
Just talking at the air..
Munch...
Going to get a drink to wash down the popcorn.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018