Exactly how horrible has the crowdfunded MMO experiment been?

MightyUnclean

If you're curious as to how bad things have been for crowdfunded MMOs, and how many have actually managed to make it to release and survive, scroll down to the comprehensive list at the bottom of this MOP article.  If you still put money into these "games" after you see this list, I don't know what to say other than good luck, and you have a lot more faith than I do.

https://massivelyop.com/2021/03/13/make-my-mmo-crowdfunding-roundup-2021-mar-13/

Hyperpsycrow

I never donated 1 cent to these wishing wells but i did throw a coin in a pond once in Lego land and i wished for more money

Brainy

This is a sad list, crazy the failure going on there.  I wonder if this failure rate is similar on other Kickstarter areas or just specific to MMO's, because that is just pathetic.

Shaigh

Brainy said:

This is a sad list, crazy the failure going on there.  I wonder if this failure rate is similar on other Kickstarter areas or just specific to MMO's, because that is just pathetic.

I have kickstarted divinity: OS 1+2, wasteland 3, bard's tale 4. I have played crowdfunded title like wasteland 2, pillars of eternity, jotun, dreamfall chapters, FTL, Darkest Dungeon, kingdom come deliverance, banner saga, shadowrun returns, shadowrun hongkong, bloodstained: ritual of the night, hyper light drifter and probably a few i don't remember were kickstarter projects.

Kickstarter is still very popular for board game development due to projects having a high success rate and that it offers good customization to a crowd that are willing to pay money for extra stuff in their games.

Iselin

They apparently fill a niche for "super fans." And by super fan I mean those who are not happy being just game consumers and buy the T-shirts, attend conventions and want to rub shoulders with real, live developers. They buy the illusion of being "involved" in the development of a KS MMO project.

Some very dishonest people take advantage of the super fans and sometimes get them to "donate" absolutely silly amounts of money pitching exactly that "co-development" illusion nonsense.

Some may be honestly trying to create an MMO but others know damn well they have no hope in hell of doing so (Jason Appleton and Greedmonger if you need an example) but post just enough art and unity asset animations to keep the illusion going and milking their backer's cash as long as possible.

I'm talking specifically about KS MMOs because many other things use KS just fine and produce the products. This includes many quite good single player games.

But the fact that those very good single player games began as KS is actually a problem that feeds the illusion that MMOs are also viable as crowdfunded projects.

It's pretty obvious by now that this isn't true and that it doesn't translate well at all to the MMO game scale. Only a handful of them have ever "launched" and none of them have launched yet as an honestly launch-ready product. 

Luckily I'm very happy being "just" a games consumer. I find the whole super fandom thing kind of cringey honestly. That has probably saved me a ton of money and I can just watch the whole KS MMO drama from the sidelines. I wouldn't want to be any closer to it than that.

Build the goddamn game by whatever funding means you want and show me the end result. I will then make a simple buy / not buy decision. That's the kind of gamer I am.

AAAMEOW

The ones which make the news mostly are doing fine.  Or at least seemed to be progressing in development.  

I think the moral of the story is don't donate to people you never heard of or haven't gotten anything to show for.  

The long list don't matter since most of those no one even heard of.  

Faileas

Hello, my name is Faileas and I would really appreciate it if you guys would back up this MMO. This game means so much to me and I would like nothing more for it to succeed, but it needs your help!!! Please support the amazing creator of this game by giving him your money. I promise it will be worth it!!! This game will save the MMO genre guys, I just feel it!!! 

Ungood

Xodic said:

Pay your employees their total expected earnings upfront and see how many of them show up to work the next morning.

Or, I know this one first hand, pay a contractor upfront to finish the addition to your house and count how many times your permits expire before you have to sue them.

You need to hire better contractors.

And better employees for that mater, as think how many salaried employess there are out there that are getting paid a fixed rate, and yet continue to over preform and work OT without making an extra buck for it

Kyleran

Ungood said:

Xodic said:

Pay your employees their total expected earnings upfront and see how many of them show up to work the next morning.

Or, I know this one first hand, pay a contractor upfront to finish the addition to your house and count how many times your permits expire before you have to sue them.

You need to hire better contractors.

And better employees for that mater, as think how many salaried employess there are out there that are getting paid a fixed rate, and yet continue to over preform and work OT without making an extra buck for it

No need to build a straw man, you well know the point he's trying to make and in neither of your counters is anyone being paid their full compensation up front.

Of course, it could be pointed out for most MMORPG crowd funding efforts a big part of the problem is the devs aren't securing any where near enough funds to complete the game, unlike say the many more successful single player games which have released.

Star Citizen, well thats a "unicorn" of a different color. All the money in the world can't seem to get anything released from that studio, single player or otherwise.

Ungood

Kyleran said:

Ungood said:

Xodic said:

Pay your employees their total expected earnings upfront and see how many of them show up to work the next morning.

Or, I know this one first hand, pay a contractor upfront to finish the addition to your house and count how many times your permits expire before you have to sue them.

You need to hire better contractors.

And better employees for that mater, as think how many salaried employess there are out there that are getting paid a fixed rate, and yet continue to over preform and work OT without making an extra buck for it

No need to build a straw man, you well know the point he's trying to make and in neither of your counters is anyone being paid their full compensation up front.

Of course, it could be pointed out for most MMORPG crowd funding efforts a big part of the problem is the devs aren't securing any where near enough funds to complete the game, unlike say the many more successful single player games which have released.

Star Citizen, well thats a "unicorn" of a different color. All the money in the world can't seem to get anything released from that studio, single player or otherwise.

A lot of contractors get paid in full upfront, or at the very least, half upfront, and then half upon completion, often with stipulations for additional monies if anything about the project or situation changes.

Its not really a strawman, a strawman would, expecting a contractor to do a full renovation project for you out of their own pocket and then if you liked it, you might give them a little money lol

Xatsh

Kickstarters failing basically comes down to funding and people.

A AAA mmo cost 100s of millions and takes 100s of devs to complete.

Having a group say 10-20 ppl starting a kick starter with 2-10million raised  is sorta not even close to what it takes.

If you seen groups of 150 veterans developers raise 150-200million then you would see alot more kick starters work.

The way it works now is you are literally "Kick Starting" the project. They have to develop something to convince investors it is worth investing in for them to have funds to take it to completion. Be that a big investor or the general population continuing to fund. Fail to get the funding the studio will fold.

Got to remember AAA studios are pulling out of MMOs. Getting a large publisher to fund a game in a "Dying Genre" when things like Mobile Games are so much more profitable and cheaper to develop is probably a really hard sell right now. The more risky the venture the more the investor will demand in return for funding.

Kyleran

Ungood said:

Kyleran said:

Ungood said:

Xodic said:

Pay your employees their total expected earnings upfront and see how many of them show up to work the next morning.

Or, I know this one first hand, pay a contractor upfront to finish the addition to your house and count how many times your permits expire before you have to sue them.

You need to hire better contractors.

And better employees for that mater, as think how many salaried employess there are out there that are getting paid a fixed rate, and yet continue to over preform and work OT without making an extra buck for it

No need to build a straw man, you well know the point he's trying to make and in neither of your counters is anyone being paid their full compensation up front.

Of course, it could be pointed out for most MMORPG crowd funding efforts a big part of the problem is the devs aren't securing any where near enough funds to complete the game, unlike say the many more successful single player games which have released.

Star Citizen, well thats a "unicorn" of a different color. All the money in the world can't seem to get anything released from that studio, single player or otherwise.

A lot of contractors get paid in full upfront, or at the very least, half upfront, and then half upon completion, often with stipulations for additional monies if anything about the project or situation changes.

Its not really a strawman, a strawman would, expecting a contractor to do a full renovation project for you out of their own pocket and then if you liked it, you might give them a little money lol

They used to call those "spec" homes, built by larger contractor out of their own pockets on speculation they could sell them in a hot market. 

Condos are still built this way for the most part.

Ungood

Kyleran said:

Ungood said:

Kyleran said:

Ungood said:

Xodic said:

Pay your employees their total expected earnings upfront and see how many of them show up to work the next morning.

Or, I know this one first hand, pay a contractor upfront to finish the addition to your house and count how many times your permits expire before you have to sue them.

You need to hire better contractors.

And better employees for that mater, as think how many salaried employess there are out there that are getting paid a fixed rate, and yet continue to over preform and work OT without making an extra buck for it

No need to build a straw man, you well know the point he's trying to make and in neither of your counters is anyone being paid their full compensation up front.

Of course, it could be pointed out for most MMORPG crowd funding efforts a big part of the problem is the devs aren't securing any where near enough funds to complete the game, unlike say the many more successful single player games which have released.

Star Citizen, well thats a "unicorn" of a different color. All the money in the world can't seem to get anything released from that studio, single player or otherwise.

A lot of contractors get paid in full upfront, or at the very least, half upfront, and then half upon completion, often with stipulations for additional monies if anything about the project or situation changes.

Its not really a strawman, a strawman would, expecting a contractor to do a full renovation project for you out of their own pocket and then if you liked it, you might give them a little money lol

They used to call those "spec" homes, built by larger contractor out of their own pockets on speculation they could sell them in a hot market. 

Condos are still built this way for the most part.

The housing market is a lot different than the Renovation market.

Having a large investment firm hire a contractor to build home that the investor would then sell for a profit is it's own animal. Some larger construction companies tried to be their own investors with varying degrees of success.

But, that is like a AAA mmo being made and you can buy it, as they made it, as they offer it, or go find something else to spend your money on.

Unlike a private renovation project or custom built home where you deal with the contractor directly to make what you want often subject to change based on how much you can afford, and other situations as they arise.

With the small scale projects, you as the client are expected to pay at least half upfront, and often times secure the funds for the finished project, before a single nail gets invested into it by the contractor. To be fair, I have almost never seen a commercial building get put together on time and on budget, even from long standing professionals, new people doing things can often be train wrecks, and the more big headed the client, the more the project always goes over budget on.

Not sure why about that one, to be honest, just seems to be the way things go.

Anyway there does seem to be a lot of things in common between construction and mmo building, for better or worse on that one, and typically, the more novice the company, the more they will make mistakes and thus lead to an inferior product that ends up costing more to make. Equally so, often times the more experienced the company, the more streamlined and generic their work is, but often enough, it is cost effective and quick.

Humm..

Well.. I kinda lost my Point, so.. Yah..AAnywa, butane is great for keeping torches hot

AlBQuirky

I guess it depends on what angle you're looking at Kickstarter LOL

From the developer's view, They are gggGRREEAAATTT!!!! (Tony the Tiger voice there) What a "grand scheme" to rake in money

From the player's view, it's a waste of money, unless you like buying drugs that help you "feel good" for a little bit, then disappointment

Vrika

Ungood said:

The housing market is a lot different than the Renovation market.

Having a large investment firm hire a contractor to build home that the investor would then sell for a profit is it's own animal. Some larger construction companies tried to be their own investors with varying degrees of success.

But, that is like a AAA mmo being made and you can buy it, as they made it, as they offer it, or go find something else to spend your money on.

Unlike a private renovation project or custom built home where you deal with the contractor directly to make what you want often subject to change based on how much you can afford, and other situations as they arise.

With the small scale projects, you as the client are expected to pay at least half upfront, and often times secure the funds for the finished project, before a single nail gets invested into it by the contractor. To be fair, I have almost never seen a commercial building get put together on time and on budget, even from long standing professionals, new people doing things can often be train wrecks, and the more big headed the client, the more the project always goes over budget on.

Not sure why about that one, to be honest, just seems to be the way things go.

Anyway there does seem to be a lot of things in common between construction and mmo building, for better or worse on that one, and typically, the more novice the company, the more they will make mistakes and thus lead to an inferior product that ends up costing more to make. Equally so, often times the more experienced the company, the more streamlined and generic their work is, but often enough, it is cost effective and quick.

Humm..

Well.. I kinda lost my Point, so.. Yah..AAnywa, butane is great for keeping torches hot

The difference between construction and building MMOs is that with construction you should expect to be maybe 30% over time and over budget, whereas with crowdfunded MMOs you're 300% over time and over budget.

All projects tend to have problems, but with crowdfunded MMOs the problems are larger than the original project.

Ungood

Vrika said:

Ungood said:

The housing market is a lot different than the Renovation market.

Having a large investment firm hire a contractor to build home that the investor would then sell for a profit is it's own animal. Some larger construction companies tried to be their own investors with varying degrees of success.

But, that is like a AAA mmo being made and you can buy it, as they made it, as they offer it, or go find something else to spend your money on.

Unlike a private renovation project or custom built home where you deal with the contractor directly to make what you want often subject to change based on how much you can afford, and other situations as they arise.

With the small scale projects, you as the client are expected to pay at least half upfront, and often times secure the funds for the finished project, before a single nail gets invested into it by the contractor. To be fair, I have almost never seen a commercial building get put together on time and on budget, even from long standing professionals, new people doing things can often be train wrecks, and the more big headed the client, the more the project always goes over budget on.

Not sure why about that one, to be honest, just seems to be the way things go.

Anyway there does seem to be a lot of things in common between construction and mmo building, for better or worse on that one, and typically, the more novice the company, the more they will make mistakes and thus lead to an inferior product that ends up costing more to make. Equally so, often times the more experienced the company, the more streamlined and generic their work is, but often enough, it is cost effective and quick.

Humm..

Well.. I kinda lost my Point, so.. Yah..AAnywa, butane is great for keeping torches hot

The difference between construction and building MMOs is that with construction you should expect to be maybe 30% over time and over budget, whereas with crowdfunded MMOs you're 300% over time and over budget.

All projects tend to have problems, but with crowdfunded MMOs the problems are larger than the original project.

This is not incorrect, but also keep in mind that in reality, a CF game is akin to getting a home renovation project done by someone who knows a guy that can do it for half the cost and twice as fast.

You really have no one to blame but yourself when they are passed out drunk on your front lawn, naked, and telling you that it will get done tomorrow, they just need $50 more today for beer to keep them going

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

francis_baud

From the list on MOP:
In development (or no news): 76
Launched: 10
Cancelled / shut down: 12
Total: 98

Note that some of the titles in the list aren't MMOs. I may have miscalculated

francis_baud

Xodic said:

Pay your employees their total expected earnings upfront and see how many of them show up to work the next morning.

Or, I know this one first hand, pay a contractor upfront to finish the addition to your house and count how many times your permits expire before you have to sue them.

It seems to me that it's not exactly a correct comparison, because:

1) the amount of money they get from crowdfunding often isn't enough to pay for the total development costs (example with Crowfall: only 16,75% of the funding comes from crowdfunding). The rest comes primarily from external investors who get a percentage of the studio in equity

2) the expected revenue of a launched MMORPG is usually way larger than crowdfunding revenues (example still with Crowfall: current crowdfunding is less than a million per year, while a successful launch (let's say 50K new players with 10% of VIP users) brings about $3,5M in revenues for the first year

3) if I'm correct it's usually more costly to develop a game than to operate a released game (because of salaries), except maybe if the studio is working on large expansion content

TL;DR: studios have significant financial incentives to launch the game as soon as they consider it's ready

mgilbrtsn

It seem to me that it's about the same as other published games. Delays, not as advertised, and some hits and some misses.

Slapshot1188

Crowdfunded games should be limited to a big red DONATE button with zero promises or items listed.

As soon as they list tangible deliverables then they are selling stuff and should be as responsible for that delivery as any other company.

Theocritus

Kickstarters and Go Fund Me's will never see a dime from me.....Too many scams

KnightFalz

AlBQuirky said:

I guess it depends on what angle you're looking at Kickstarter LOL

From the developer's view, They are gggGRREEAAATTT!!!! (Tony the Tiger voice there) What a "grand scheme" to rake in money

From the player's view, it's a waste of money, unless you like buying drugs that help you "feel good" for a little bit, then disappointment

From the player's view it's a risk of money that may or not work out. So long as the player keeps in mind that all he puts in could well be lost, it should curb his enthusiasm so that if the project fails the bother will be minimal.

francis_baud

remsleep said:

Theocritus said:

Kickstarters and Go Fund Me's will never see a dime from me.....Too many scams

So there is zero accountability, zero process for follow through - it's money freely given, freely kept by someone who has no obligation at all to finish the project, or even put much effort into it.

There's still the contract that Kickstarter creators sign that stipulates they have the obligation to complete the project and fulfill all rewards, and if they're unable to achieve that they must comply with a series of obligations, or else they may be subject to legal actions by backers.

https://www.kickstarter.com/terms-of-use (#4)

Ungood

francis_baud said:

remsleep said:

Theocritus said:

Kickstarters and Go Fund Me's will never see a dime from me.....Too many scams

So there is zero accountability, zero process for follow through - it's money freely given, freely kept by someone who has no obligation at all to finish the project, or even put much effort into it.

There's still the contract that Kickstarter creators sign that stipulates they have the obligation to complete the project and fulfill all rewards, and if they're unable to achieve that they must comply with a series of obligations, or else they may be subject to legal actions by backers.

https://www.kickstarter.com/terms-of-use (#4)

This.

While failure is a possibility, that does not mean that Kickstarter does not care at all about what happens, or that creators can do whatever they want with the money.

Slapshot1188

francis_baud said:

remsleep said:

Theocritus said:

Kickstarters and Go Fund Me's will never see a dime from me.....Too many scams

So there is zero accountability, zero process for follow through - it's money freely given, freely kept by someone who has no obligation at all to finish the project, or even put much effort into it.

There's still the contract that Kickstarter creators sign that stipulates they have the obligation to complete the project and fulfill all rewards, and if they're unable to achieve that they must comply with a series of obligations, or else they may be subject to legal actions by backers.

https://www.kickstarter.com/terms-of-use (#4)

In many cases, the amount of money raised directly through the game's website dwarfs the amount raised by Kickstarter.   I totally agree with what you posted, but if Kickstarter went away tomorrow, Crowdfunding would continue.