My point about the legal action is this: Kickstarter does NOT (as far as I can tell) bring legal action, but rather the donaters are left to do it. I was addressing "Kickstarter's vested interest" point. They got paid. Now, if Kickstarter also has to pay back what they charged the failures, then I can see them having a vested interest
Kickstarter's sole role is facilitating the connection of projects seeking funding and those seeking projects to fund. Once that is done their involvement ceases.
They have no influence on the success or failure of the projects, so I doubt any court will find against them in any legislation brought forward.
People need to understand they are basically just making a donation...>There are no guarantees and theres a possibility they get nothing in return.....If yo uwant to make a better investment, then buy a game off Steam of some other site that will give you your money back if unsatisfied. Otherwise, buyer beware.
They aren't making a donation, but risking their money on a desired outcome. Such is the case when anyone puts money into what might or not eventually be.
Buying what exists isn't necessarily a better deal if what you really want is that which does not, but may with your help and that of others.
It is very high risk, as one can easily lose everything they put it. But, so long as one doesn't put more in then they can afford to lose without financial distress, the risk will remain high but the consequence of a failed project low.
So, buyer beware as you say, and don't gamble more than you can lose outright, as that may very well be the outcome.
I agree with all of that... so long as the information provided is accurate. For instance if a company says they will use the money for X,y,z and not pay themselves but then pay themselves... that's fraud IMHO.
If a Kickstarter is supposed to (by their rules) be for all the money required to complete the project, then the company can't later say "that was just seed money and we will need millions more). That's fraud IMHO...
As long as people are given the right information to make their choices, there are no guarantees of success, but IMHO giving inaccurate information to obtain money is fraud.
The accuracy of the information and following through on intent is ultimately the responsibility of those seeking funding, not the platform on which funding is sought.
Kickstarter can express what should be done, and have those offering projects pinky swear it will be so, but they have no influence over what is actually done. Cases of potential fraud would have to be taken up with those offering the project.
Not 100% true. If a 3rd party is profiting from the transaction (ie. Kickstarter's cut) and know that some of these profits are generated by fraud then they have a responsibility to perform some level of validation. What that level is... remains a bit unclear.
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My point about the legal action is this: Kickstarter does NOT (as far as I can tell) bring legal action, but rather the donaters are left to do it. I was addressing "Kickstarter's vested interest" point. They got paid. Now, if Kickstarter also has to pay back what they charged the failures, then I can see them having a vested interest
Kickstarter's sole role is facilitating the connection of projects seeking funding and those seeking projects to fund. Once that is done their involvement ceases.
They have no influence on the success or failure of the projects, so I doubt any court will find against them in any legislation brought forward.
People need to understand they are basically just making a donation...>There are no guarantees and theres a possibility they get nothing in return.....If yo uwant to make a better investment, then buy a game off Steam of some other site that will give you your money back if unsatisfied. Otherwise, buyer beware.
They aren't making a donation, but risking their money on a desired outcome. Such is the case when anyone puts money into what might or not eventually be.
Buying what exists isn't necessarily a better deal if what you really want is that which does not, but may with your help and that of others.
It is very high risk, as one can easily lose everything they put it. But, so long as one doesn't put more in then they can afford to lose without financial distress, the risk will remain high but the consequence of a failed project low.
So, buyer beware as you say, and don't gamble more than you can lose outright, as that may very well be the outcome.
I agree with all of that... so long as the information provided is accurate. For instance if a company says they will use the money for X,y,z and not pay themselves but then pay themselves... that's fraud IMHO.
If a Kickstarter is supposed to (by their rules) be for all the money required to complete the project, then the company can't later say "that was just seed money and we will need millions more). That's fraud IMHO...
As long as people are given the right information to make their choices, there are no guarantees of success, but IMHO giving inaccurate information to obtain money is fraud.
The accuracy of the information and following through on intent is ultimately the responsibility of those seeking funding, not the platform on which funding is sought.
Kickstarter can express what should be done, and have those offering projects pinky swear it will be so, but they have no influence over what is actually done. Cases of potential fraud would have to be taken up with those offering the project.
Not 100% true. If a 3rd party is profiting from the transaction (ie. Kickstarter's cut) and know that some of these profits are generated by fraud then they have a responsibility to perform some level of validation. What that level is... remains a bit unclear.
If Kickstarter knows fraud is taking place they'd best get on informing the authorities as soon as possible to not only insulate themselves from potential legal fallout but to be as well positioned as they can when news of it breaks.
However, I think it likely their policy is to conduct business without probing into the inner workings of the projects and those behind them. If you don't look behind the curtain you don't have to deal with what could be found there.
I have no idea why people are trying to punish Kickstarter.
They make it clear, their entire platform is to connect creators with backers.
Kickstarter did nothing wrong, if the Creator screws people, than the Creator is the Asshole that did wrong and should be punished, not Kickstarter.
Let me fix this for you and see if you still agree with your statement.
"I have no idea why people are trying to punish The Pimp.
They make it clear, their entire platform is to connect Escorts with Johns.
The Pimp did nothing wrong, if the Escort screws people, than the Escort is the Asshole that did wrong and should be punished, not The Pimp."
Kickstarter doesn't knowingly facilitate fraudulent activity while everyone in your story would be knowingly breaking the law in the vast majority of locales. The two scenarios are in no way similar so neither would affect one's view of the other.
KS'r is big time guilty of facilitating a corrupt operation,a platform to allow devs to exploit dumb people.ALL KS'r cares about is THEIR cut.They could put in rules and guidelines but they know they would lose a large portion of their business and that is their only goal,to make money.
Crowd funding like ANY business is a success or failure based on the people who give them money.I am sure they would love to post NUMBERS liek we see so often on this site to brag about their success but it is ZERO indication of quality of service or product.It is an indication of the people giving and spending money.
There is only ONE WAY to do crowd funding properly,SHARES.So you offer up 49% of the shares and the books are open for people to see.ANYTHING else is just a scam an exploit to take advantage of dumb people.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I have no idea why people are trying to punish Kickstarter.
They make it clear, their entire platform is to connect creators with backers.
Kickstarter did nothing wrong, if the Creator screws people, than the Creator is the Asshole that did wrong and should be punished, not Kickstarter.
That is like someone feeling that should be allowed to kick you personally in the face for what your coworker did, because "You are both in the same company"
I think the problem comes directly from the terminology. 'Creators' implies something being completed and delivered to the public. Too many game development projects have failed to be a 'creator' even under the broadest terms.
And, yes, Kickstarter (and other independent fund raising efforts) should be held liable for contributing to the situation when fraud is involved. After all, funding a criminal act is also a criminal act.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
I have no idea why people are trying to punish Kickstarter.
They make it clear, their entire platform is to connect creators with backers.
Kickstarter did nothing wrong, if the Creator screws people, than the Creator is the Asshole that did wrong and should be punished, not Kickstarter.
Let me fix this for you and see if you still agree with your statement.
"I have no idea why people are trying to punish The Pimp.
They make it clear, their entire platform is to connect Escorts with Johns.
The Pimp did nothing wrong, if the Escort screws people, than the Escort is the Asshole that did wrong and should be punished, not The Pimp."
Kickstarter doesn't knowingly facilitate fraudulent activity while everyone in your story would be knowingly breaking the law in the vast majority of locales. The two scenarios are in no way similar so neither would affect one's view of the other.
Kickstarter certainly knows fraud is taking place on their platform. Way to many articles have come out for them to not know. So yes they are knowingly facilitating fraudulent activity. The only question is if that can be proven in court or if they knew beforehand or should have reasonably known.
This is no different than a message parlor or anywhere else illegal activities are taking place. The Pimp example could easily be running a dating service... Just a question of enforcement.
All it takes is 1 whistleblower, 1 court case, or one justice dept probe and that could all change.
I have no idea why people are trying to punish Kickstarter.
They make it clear, their entire platform is to connect creators with backers.
Kickstarter did nothing wrong, if the Creator screws people, than the Creator is the Asshole that did wrong and should be punished, not Kickstarter.
Let me fix this for you and see if you still agree with your statement.
"I have no idea why people are trying to punish The Pimp.
They make it clear, their entire platform is to connect Escorts with Johns.
The Pimp did nothing wrong, if the Escort screws people, than the Escort is the Asshole that did wrong and should be punished, not The Pimp."
This is a horrible analogy, as a Pimp is directly classified as Publisher, as they receive payment for a clients use of what would be their employee or subcontractor. and publishers are very liable for any and all illegal activity they engage in.
Kickstarter is a platform, not a publisher.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I have no idea why people are trying to punish Kickstarter.
They make it clear, their entire platform is to connect creators with backers.
Kickstarter did nothing wrong, if the Creator screws people, than the Creator is the Asshole that did wrong and should be punished, not Kickstarter.
That is like someone feeling that should be allowed to kick you personally in the face for what your coworker did, because "You are both in the same company"
I think the problem comes directly from the terminology. 'Creators' implies something being completed and delivered to the public. Too many game development projects have failed to be a 'creator' even under the broadest terms.
And, yes, Kickstarter (and other independent fund raising efforts) should be held liable for contributing to the situation when fraud is involved. After all, funding a criminal act is also a criminal act.
Only if they knew it was a criminal act while they were directly involved.
Case in point, if you were picking up a friend at a diner, and had no idea they shot someone, should you be charged with murder, because you took them home?
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I have no idea why people are trying to punish Kickstarter.
They make it clear, their entire platform is to connect creators with backers.
Kickstarter did nothing wrong, if the Creator screws people, than the Creator is the Asshole that did wrong and should be punished, not Kickstarter.
Let me fix this for you and see if you still agree with your statement.
"I have no idea why people are trying to punish The Pimp.
They make it clear, their entire platform is to connect Escorts with Johns.
The Pimp did nothing wrong, if the Escort screws people, than the Escort is the Asshole that did wrong and should be punished, not The Pimp."
Kickstarter doesn't knowingly facilitate fraudulent activity while everyone in your story would be knowingly breaking the law in the vast majority of locales. The two scenarios are in no way similar so neither would affect one's view of the other.
Kickstarter certainly knows fraud is taking place on their platform. Way to many articles have come out for them to not know. So yes they are knowingly facilitating fraudulent activity. The only question is if that can be proven in court or if they knew beforehand or should have reasonably known.
This is no different than a message parlor or anywhere else illegal activities are taking place. The Pimp example could easily be running a dating service... Just a question of enforcement.
All it takes is 1 whistleblower, 1 court case, or one justice dept probe and that could all change.
Actually, it's already been validated many times and among some really high profile court cases, involving the likes of Google, AT&T, Verizon, etc, and the end result is, they are not liable, that is what the Section 230 Protections are all about.
As long as they do not publish or knowing engage in any illegal activity, they are not liable for what happens on their platform.
This is why AT&T is not responsible for what people say to each other across the phone, regardless of how shady or illegal it might be. Because AT&T does not monitor what happens on their platform, at all.
Everyone gets this, this is why we can't sue a phone company directly for any kind of lies, threats, or anything else that happens over the phone.
But there are limits on this, Allow me to explain that, maybe not for you, but for anyone else that might care.
The limit is, for Platforms, like Kickstarter, Facebook, MySpace, Etc, which hosts things, If something is reported to them as fraud/illegal/against their ToS, while they are actively hosting it, they have an obligation to respond to that flag/report and investigate it, and, make no mistake, they do so, as far as Kickstarter goes, swiftly, epically on the illegal or against the ToS aspects, and they will take it down, cancel the project and refund the backers while they still have the funds in their possession, and have a long history of doing so.
5 years after the project has left their platform, they are no longer directly involved with it.
I get that some people are butthurt, that they feel slighted, and I respect that, but, Kickstarter did nothing wrong.
You need to focus on the person that did, and make them pay, which is the con artist themselves, which is why I applaud the people that took CoE to court, and have pushed that case, as opposed to the people that cry about how KS needs to coddle them more.
What you are really saying, when you cry at Kickstarter, is that you can't be trusted to make smart decisions with your own money.
Hire an accountant, or you know, give your money to your mom or something, and let them handle your accounts till you grow up.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I have no idea why people are trying to punish Kickstarter.
They make it clear, their entire platform is to connect creators with backers.
Kickstarter did nothing wrong, if the Creator screws people, than the Creator is the Asshole that did wrong and should be punished, not Kickstarter.
That is like someone feeling that should be allowed to kick you personally in the face for what your coworker did, because "You are both in the same company"
I think the problem comes directly from the terminology. 'Creators' implies something being completed and delivered to the public. Too many game development projects have failed to be a 'creator' even under the broadest terms.
And, yes, Kickstarter (and other independent fund raising efforts) should be held liable for contributing to the situation when fraud is involved. After all, funding a criminal act is also a criminal act.
Only if they knew it was a criminal act while they were directly involved.
Case in point, if you were picking up a friend at a diner, and had no idea they shot someone, should you be charged with murder, because you took them home?
You could be if you were warned ahead of time they might have shot someone.
I have no idea why people are trying to punish Kickstarter.
They make it clear, their entire platform is to connect creators with backers.
Kickstarter did nothing wrong, if the Creator screws people, than the Creator is the Asshole that did wrong and should be punished, not Kickstarter.
That is like someone feeling that should be allowed to kick you personally in the face for what your coworker did, because "You are both in the same company"
I think the problem comes directly from the terminology. 'Creators' implies something being completed and delivered to the public. Too many game development projects have failed to be a 'creator' even under the broadest terms.
And, yes, Kickstarter (and other independent fund raising efforts) should be held liable for contributing to the situation when fraud is involved. After all, funding a criminal act is also a criminal act.
Only if they knew it was a criminal act while they were directly involved.
Case in point, if you were picking up a friend at a diner, and had no idea they shot someone, should you be charged with murder, because you took them home?
You could be if you were warned ahead of time they might have shot someone.
You weren't. Hence the "hand no idea they shot someone"
So.. you had no idea your friend committed a crime and you drove them home, should you be charged with the crime?
Or better yet, lets see how ostentatious we can go with this, Should the courts demand that you validate that your friend has not committed a crime before you pick them up?
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I have no idea why people are trying to punish Kickstarter.
They make it clear, their entire platform is to connect creators with backers.
Kickstarter did nothing wrong, if the Creator screws people, than the Creator is the Asshole that did wrong and should be punished, not Kickstarter.
That is like someone feeling that should be allowed to kick you personally in the face for what your coworker did, because "You are both in the same company"
I think the problem comes directly from the terminology. 'Creators' implies something being completed and delivered to the public. Too many game development projects have failed to be a 'creator' even under the broadest terms.
And, yes, Kickstarter (and other independent fund raising efforts) should be held liable for contributing to the situation when fraud is involved. After all, funding a criminal act is also a criminal act.
Only if they knew it was a criminal act while they were directly involved.
Case in point, if you were picking up a friend at a diner, and had no idea they shot someone, should you be charged with murder, because you took them home?
You could be if you were warned ahead of time they might have shot someone.
You weren't. Hence the "hand no idea they shot someone"
So.. you had no idea your friend committed a crime and you drove them home, should you be charged with the crime?
Or better yet, lets see how ostentatious we can go with this, Should the courts demand that you validate that your friend has not committed a crime before you pick them up?
Its all about whether you had reasonable knowledge to suspect it.
Try telling that to the police if you drive your friend home after they rob a bank. Also try and use that, if someone warns you ahead of time that your friend is likely going to rob the bank.
Kickstarter has reasonable knowledge. If enough fraud is committed, civil cases can come forward using negligence if they fail to do anything about it.
I have no idea why people are trying to punish Kickstarter.
They make it clear, their entire platform is to connect creators with backers.
Kickstarter did nothing wrong, if the Creator screws people, than the Creator is the Asshole that did wrong and should be punished, not Kickstarter.
That is like someone feeling that should be allowed to kick you personally in the face for what your coworker did, because "You are both in the same company"
I think the problem comes directly from the terminology. 'Creators' implies something being completed and delivered to the public. Too many game development projects have failed to be a 'creator' even under the broadest terms.
And, yes, Kickstarter (and other independent fund raising efforts) should be held liable for contributing to the situation when fraud is involved. After all, funding a criminal act is also a criminal act.
Only if they knew it was a criminal act while they were directly involved.
Case in point, if you were picking up a friend at a diner, and had no idea they shot someone, should you be charged with murder, because you took them home?
You could be if you were warned ahead of time they might have shot someone.
You weren't. Hence the "hand no idea they shot someone"
So.. you had no idea your friend committed a crime and you drove them home, should you be charged with the crime?
Or better yet, lets see how ostentatious we can go with this, Should the courts demand that you validate that your friend has not committed a crime before you pick them up?
Its all about whether you had reasonable knowledge to suspect it.
Try telling that to the police if you drive your friend home after they rob a bank. Also try and use that, if someone warns you ahead of time that your friend is likely going to rob the bank.
Kickstarter has reasonable knowledge. If enough fraud is committed, civil cases can come forward using negligence if they fail to do anything about it.
They have a 91% rate of successful projects that backers received their product.
Of the 9% that flat out failed, some where due to the person overseeing the project just being incompetent, which is not fraud, and thankfully for many in our world, it's not illegal to be overconfident and stupid about it, yet.
and yes, some where direct fraud.
Given that one of the more famous fraud cases involved just a custom set of playing cards, which is not a hard thing to deliver, all things said and done, so this should have been an easy sale, they get some money, and you get a deck of playing cards with the creators custom art on it. For some insane reason, the person took the backers money and ran.
So, how exactly do you propose that Kickstarter magically know which project is fraud.
I would love to know, in fact, if you could figure that one out, you should sell it to Kickstarter, as I am sure they would love it.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I suppose, Kickstarter, could take a similar action to what Ebay did, and simply block some things from being on their platform, in this case, simply not allow MMO's to be funded on their platform at all.
I would bet some other Crowed Fund Platforms, like Xsolla are already considering this, thanks to CoE.
So, that might be the end knee jerk response from all this.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I have no idea why people are trying to punish Kickstarter.
They make it clear, their entire platform is to connect creators with backers.
Kickstarter did nothing wrong, if the Creator screws people, than the Creator is the Asshole that did wrong and should be punished, not Kickstarter.
That is like someone feeling that should be allowed to kick you personally in the face for what your coworker did, because "You are both in the same company"
I think the problem comes directly from the terminology. 'Creators' implies something being completed and delivered to the public. Too many game development projects have failed to be a 'creator' even under the broadest terms.
And, yes, Kickstarter (and other independent fund raising efforts) should be held liable for contributing to the situation when fraud is involved. After all, funding a criminal act is also a criminal act.
Only if they knew it was a criminal act while they were directly involved.
Case in point, if you were picking up a friend at a diner, and had no idea they shot someone, should you be charged with murder, because you took them home?
You could be if you were warned ahead of time they might have shot someone.
You weren't. Hence the "hand no idea they shot someone"
So.. you had no idea your friend committed a crime and you drove them home, should you be charged with the crime?
Or better yet, lets see how ostentatious we can go with this, Should the courts demand that you validate that your friend has not committed a crime before you pick them up?
Its all about whether you had reasonable knowledge to suspect it.
Try telling that to the police if you drive your friend home after they rob a bank. Also try and use that, if someone warns you ahead of time that your friend is likely going to rob the bank.
Kickstarter has reasonable knowledge. If enough fraud is committed, civil cases can come forward using negligence if they fail to do anything about it.
They have a 91% rate of successful projects that backers received their product.
Of the 9% that flat out failed, some where due to the person overseeing the project just being incompetent, which is not fraud, and thankfully for many in our world, it's not illegal to be overconfident and stupid about it, yet.
and yes, some where direct fraud.
Given that one of the more famous fraud cases involved just a custom set of playing cards, which is not a hard thing to deliver, all things said and done, so this should have been an easy sale, they get some money, and you get a deck of playing cards with the creators custom art on it. For some insane reason, the person took the backers money and ran.
So, how exactly do you propose that Kickstarter magically know which project is fraud.
I would love to know, in fact, if you could figure that one out, you should sell it to Kickstarter, as I am sure they would love it.
You are being way over the top with this. Do you think this is the first company to ever discover anti-fraud techniques.
There are so many anti-fraud things they could do its ridiculous to even list them for you.
I guarantee you if Kickstarter ever becomes liable for this by law or in court they will figure out in a hurry some ways to protect their customers.
This 9% failure from 1 survey you pulling from. Well how is a project failed if pretends to keep working on the project. This can go to infinity of time. I would be curious if this survey is recent or when it first started, because its a magnet for scams now.
Brainy said: Its all about whether you had reasonable knowledge to suspect it.
Try telling that to the police if you drive your friend home after they rob a bank. Also try and use that, if someone warns you ahead of time that your friend is likely going to rob the bank.
Kickstarter has reasonable knowledge. If enough fraud is committed, civil cases can come forward using negligence if they fail to do anything about it.
They have a 91% rate of successful projects that backers received their product.
Of the 9% that flat out failed, some where due to the person overseeing the project just being incompetent, which is not fraud, and thankfully for many in our world, it's not illegal to be overconfident and stupid about it, yet.
and yes, some where direct fraud.
Given that one of the more famous fraud cases involved just a custom set of playing cards, which is not a hard thing to deliver, all things said and done, so this should have been an easy sale, they get some money, and you get a deck of playing cards with the creators custom art on it. For some insane reason, the person took the backers money and ran.
So, how exactly do you propose that Kickstarter magically know which project is fraud.
I would love to know, in fact, if you could figure that one out, you should sell it to Kickstarter, as I am sure they would love it.
You are being way over the top with this. Do you think this is the first company to ever discover anti-fraud techniques.
There are so many anti-fraud things they could do its ridiculous to even list them for you.
I guarantee you if Kickstarter ever becomes liable for this by law or in court they will figure out in a hurry some ways to protect their customers.
This 9% failure from 1 survey you pulling from. Well how is a project failed if pretends to keep working on the project. This can go to infinity of time. I would be curious if this survey is recent or when it first started, because its a magnet for scams now.
Ok.. gimme 3 sure fire ways they could prevent all fraud.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I have no idea why people are trying to punish Kickstarter.
They make it clear, their entire platform is to connect creators with backers.
Kickstarter did nothing wrong, if the Creator screws people, than the Creator is the Asshole that did wrong and should be punished, not Kickstarter.
That is like someone feeling that should be allowed to kick you personally in the face for what your coworker did, because "You are both in the same company"
I think the problem comes directly from the terminology. 'Creators' implies something being completed and delivered to the public. Too many game development projects have failed to be a 'creator' even under the broadest terms.
And, yes, Kickstarter (and other independent fund raising efforts) should be held liable for contributing to the situation when fraud is involved. After all, funding a criminal act is also a criminal act.
Only if they knew it was a criminal act while they were directly involved.
Case in point, if you were picking up a friend at a diner, and had no idea they shot someone, should you be charged with murder, because you took them home?
You could be if you were warned ahead of time they might have shot someone.
You weren't. Hence the "hand no idea they shot someone"
So.. you had no idea your friend committed a crime and you drove them home, should you be charged with the crime?
Or better yet, lets see how ostentatious we can go with this, Should the courts demand that you validate that your friend has not committed a crime before you pick them up?
Its all about whether you had reasonable knowledge to suspect it.
Try telling that to the police if you drive your friend home after they rob a bank. Also try and use that, if someone warns you ahead of time that your friend is likely going to rob the bank.
Kickstarter has reasonable knowledge. If enough fraud is committed, civil cases can come forward using negligence if they fail to do anything about it.
They have a 91% rate of successful projects that backers received their product.
Of the 9% that flat out failed, some where due to the person overseeing the project just being incompetent, which is not fraud, and thankfully for many in our world, it's not illegal to be overconfident and stupid about it, yet.
and yes, some where direct fraud.
Given that one of the more famous fraud cases involved just a custom set of playing cards, which is not a hard thing to deliver, all things said and done, so this should have been an easy sale, they get some money, and you get a deck of playing cards with the creators custom art on it. For some insane reason, the person took the backers money and ran.
So, how exactly do you propose that Kickstarter magically know which project is fraud.
I would love to know, in fact, if you could figure that one out, you should sell it to Kickstarter, as I am sure they would love it.
You are being way over the top with this. Do you think this is the first company to ever discover anti-fraud techniques.
There are so many anti-fraud things they could do its ridiculous to even list them for you.
I guarantee you if Kickstarter ever becomes liable for this by law or in court they will figure out in a hurry some ways to protect their customers.
This 9% failure from 1 survey you pulling from. Well how is a project failed if pretends to keep working on the project. This can go to infinity of time. I would be curious if this survey is recent or when it first started, because its a magnet for scams now.
You are absolutely right. More importantly, they know and classify their projects. So they know mmo’s are different from a painting kit. What’s the success rate of mmos funded through Kickstarter? And by success rate I mean launched WHEN IT WAS PROMISED with the features it promised.
But you know what? That painting kit project may only bring in $5000 but the MMO brought in $1M so Kickstarter sure is monetarily incentivized to just lump em all in together.
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Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Brainy said: Its all about whether you had reasonable knowledge to suspect it.
Try telling that to the police if you drive your friend home after they rob a bank. Also try and use that, if someone warns you ahead of time that your friend is likely going to rob the bank.
Kickstarter has reasonable knowledge. If enough fraud is committed, civil cases can come forward using negligence if they fail to do anything about it.
They have a 91% rate of successful projects that backers received their product.
Of the 9% that flat out failed, some where due to the person overseeing the project just being incompetent, which is not fraud, and thankfully for many in our world, it's not illegal to be overconfident and stupid about it, yet.
and yes, some where direct fraud.
Given that one of the more famous fraud cases involved just a custom set of playing cards, which is not a hard thing to deliver, all things said and done, so this should have been an easy sale, they get some money, and you get a deck of playing cards with the creators custom art on it. For some insane reason, the person took the backers money and ran.
So, how exactly do you propose that Kickstarter magically know which project is fraud.
I would love to know, in fact, if you could figure that one out, you should sell it to Kickstarter, as I am sure they would love it.
You are being way over the top with this. Do you think this is the first company to ever discover anti-fraud techniques.
There are so many anti-fraud things they could do its ridiculous to even list them for you.
I guarantee you if Kickstarter ever becomes liable for this by law or in court they will figure out in a hurry some ways to protect their customers.
This 9% failure from 1 survey you pulling from. Well how is a project failed if pretends to keep working on the project. This can go to infinity of time. I would be curious if this survey is recent or when it first started, because its a magnet for scams now.
Ok.. gimme 3 sure fire ways they could prevent all fraud.
Only one comes to mind, cease doing business.
As long as humans and their promises are involved in a transaction, the potential for fraud will always exist.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I have no idea why people are trying to punish Kickstarter.
They make it clear, their entire platform is to connect creators with backers.
Kickstarter did nothing wrong, if the Creator screws people, than the Creator is the Asshole that did wrong and should be punished, not Kickstarter.
Let me fix this for you and see if you still agree with your statement.
"I have no idea why people are trying to punish The Pimp.
They make it clear, their entire platform is to connect Escorts with Johns.
The Pimp did nothing wrong, if the Escort screws people, than the Escort is the Asshole that did wrong and should be punished, not The Pimp."
Kickstarter doesn't knowingly facilitate fraudulent activity while everyone in your story would be knowingly breaking the law in the vast majority of locales. The two scenarios are in no way similar so neither would affect one's view of the other.
Kickstarter certainly knows fraud is taking place on their platform. Way to many articles have come out for them to not know. So yes they are knowingly facilitating fraudulent activity. The only question is if that can be proven in court or if they knew beforehand or should have reasonably known.
This is no different than a message parlor or anywhere else illegal activities are taking place. The Pimp example could easily be running a dating service... Just a question of enforcement.
All it takes is 1 whistleblower, 1 court case, or one justice dept probe and that could all change.
Well, proof is the standard isn't it? Claimed and speculated wrongdoing may be sufficient for Salem witch trials and social media lynch mobs, but otherwise not.
There is a huge difference between knowingly participating in wrongdoing and having it occur without your knowledge.
Your assumption of knowledge of wrongdoing by Kickstarter has no factual basis. Until it does your comparison of it to those knowingly violating the law is invalid.
What all it takes is one of actually requires that one of to happen.
I have no idea why people are trying to punish Kickstarter.
They make it clear, their entire platform is to connect creators with backers.
Kickstarter did nothing wrong, if the Creator screws people, than the Creator is the Asshole that did wrong and should be punished, not Kickstarter.
That is like someone feeling that should be allowed to kick you personally in the face for what your coworker did, because "You are both in the same company"
I think the problem comes directly from the terminology. 'Creators' implies something being completed and delivered to the public. Too many game development projects have failed to be a 'creator' even under the broadest terms.
And, yes, Kickstarter (and other independent fund raising efforts) should be held liable for contributing to the situation when fraud is involved. After all, funding a criminal act is also a criminal act.
Only if they knew it was a criminal act while they were directly involved.
Case in point, if you were picking up a friend at a diner, and had no idea they shot someone, should you be charged with murder, because you took them home?
You could be if you were warned ahead of time they might have shot someone.
You weren't. Hence the "hand no idea they shot someone"
So.. you had no idea your friend committed a crime and you drove them home, should you be charged with the crime?
Or better yet, lets see how ostentatious we can go with this, Should the courts demand that you validate that your friend has not committed a crime before you pick them up?
Its all about whether you had reasonable knowledge to suspect it.
Try telling that to the police if you drive your friend home after they rob a bank. Also try and use that, if someone warns you ahead of time that your friend is likely going to rob the bank.
Kickstarter has reasonable knowledge. If enough fraud is committed, civil cases can come forward using negligence if they fail to do anything about it.
They have a 91% rate of successful projects that backers received their product.
Of the 9% that flat out failed, some where due to the person overseeing the project just being incompetent, which is not fraud, and thankfully for many in our world, it's not illegal to be overconfident and stupid about it, yet.
and yes, some where direct fraud.
Given that one of the more famous fraud cases involved just a custom set of playing cards, which is not a hard thing to deliver, all things said and done, so this should have been an easy sale, they get some money, and you get a deck of playing cards with the creators custom art on it. For some insane reason, the person took the backers money and ran.
So, how exactly do you propose that Kickstarter magically know which project is fraud.
I would love to know, in fact, if you could figure that one out, you should sell it to Kickstarter, as I am sure they would love it.
You are being way over the top with this. Do you think this is the first company to ever discover anti-fraud techniques.
There are so many anti-fraud things they could do its ridiculous to even list them for you.
I guarantee you if Kickstarter ever becomes liable for this by law or in court they will figure out in a hurry some ways to protect their customers.
This 9% failure from 1 survey you pulling from. Well how is a project failed if pretends to keep working on the project. This can go to infinity of time. I would be curious if this survey is recent or when it first started, because its a magnet for scams now.
You are absolutely right. More importantly, they know and classify their projects. So they know mmo’s are different from a painting kit. What’s the success rate of mmos funded through Kickstarter? And by success rate I mean launched WHEN IT WAS PROMISED with the features it promised.
But you know what? That painting kit project may only bring in $5000 but the MMO brought in $1M so Kickstarter sure is monetarily incentivized to just lump em all in together.
Kickstarter does not market certainty or oversight. They simply provide a platform that connects prospective projects with potential supporters.
What is desired is akin to expecting those operating stock markets to ensure the success of every company listed on them while overseeing their business conduct.
Kyleran said: Only one comes to mind, cease doing business.
As long as humans and their promises are involved in a transaction, the potential for fraud will always exist.
Well they won't be held liable. It's a pipe dream to think they will. And why people want Kickstarter to be liable, I will never grasp.
Anyway, I wager platforms like Xsolla has already changed how they will do business with GaaS Studio's now, thanks to what CoE has dragged them into.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I have no idea why people are trying to punish Kickstarter.
They make it clear, their entire platform is to connect creators with backers.
Kickstarter did nothing wrong, if the Creator screws people, than the Creator is the Asshole that did wrong and should be punished, not Kickstarter.
That is like someone feeling that should be allowed to kick you personally in the face for what your coworker did, because "You are both in the same company"
I think the problem comes directly from the terminology. 'Creators' implies something being completed and delivered to the public. Too many game development projects have failed to be a 'creator' even under the broadest terms.
And, yes, Kickstarter (and other independent fund raising efforts) should be held liable for contributing to the situation when fraud is involved. After all, funding a criminal act is also a criminal act.
Only if they knew it was a criminal act while they were directly involved.
Case in point, if you were picking up a friend at a diner, and had no idea they shot someone, should you be charged with murder, because you took them home?
You could be if you were warned ahead of time they might have shot someone.
You weren't. Hence the "hand no idea they shot someone"
So.. you had no idea your friend committed a crime and you drove them home, should you be charged with the crime?
Or better yet, lets see how ostentatious we can go with this, Should the courts demand that you validate that your friend has not committed a crime before you pick them up?
Its all about whether you had reasonable knowledge to suspect it.
Try telling that to the police if you drive your friend home after they rob a bank. Also try and use that, if someone warns you ahead of time that your friend is likely going to rob the bank.
Kickstarter has reasonable knowledge. If enough fraud is committed, civil cases can come forward using negligence if they fail to do anything about it.
They have a 91% rate of successful projects that backers received their product.
Of the 9% that flat out failed, some where due to the person overseeing the project just being incompetent, which is not fraud, and thankfully for many in our world, it's not illegal to be overconfident and stupid about it, yet.
and yes, some where direct fraud.
Given that one of the more famous fraud cases involved just a custom set of playing cards, which is not a hard thing to deliver, all things said and done, so this should have been an easy sale, they get some money, and you get a deck of playing cards with the creators custom art on it. For some insane reason, the person took the backers money and ran.
So, how exactly do you propose that Kickstarter magically know which project is fraud.
I would love to know, in fact, if you could figure that one out, you should sell it to Kickstarter, as I am sure they would love it.
You are being way over the top with this. Do you think this is the first company to ever discover anti-fraud techniques.
There are so many anti-fraud things they could do its ridiculous to even list them for you.
I guarantee you if Kickstarter ever becomes liable for this by law or in court they will figure out in a hurry some ways to protect their customers.
This 9% failure from 1 survey you pulling from. Well how is a project failed if pretends to keep working on the project. This can go to infinity of time. I would be curious if this survey is recent or when it first started, because its a magnet for scams now.
You are absolutely right. More importantly, they know and classify their projects. So they know mmo’s are different from a painting kit. What’s the success rate of mmos funded through Kickstarter? And by success rate I mean launched WHEN IT WAS PROMISED with the features it promised.
But you know what? That painting kit project may only bring in $5000 but the MMO brought in $1M so Kickstarter sure is monetarily incentivized to just lump em all in together.
Kickstarter does not market certainty or oversight. They simply provide a platform that connects prospective projects with potential supporters.
What is desired is akin to expecting those operating stock markets to ensure the success of every company listed on them while overseeing their business conduct.
That isn't what speculative markets do.
My point was clearly around the 91% "success" number that was tossed out as some kind of proof that there was no problem. That number is utterly misleading when we look at MMORPGs launched on the site. Kickstarter has all the data. They advertise and push out emails to solicit money for projects based on their type. I think it would be eye opening to have a legit number that showed the rate of these projects that launched successfully (reasonably on time and reasonably complete with what they promised).
Also, the comparison to the stock market really falls flat. Kickstarter makes money based on a one time transaction with each company. After the campaign ends, they are proud to say that their relationship with that company ends as well.
The NYSE on the other hand makes money through an ongoing relationship with each company that will pay them fees. Also, to be listed on the NYSE there are actual requirements that serve as a check as to whether the company is listing worthy. It has to have 400 shareholders. It was to have over a million dollars in publicly traded stock and that stock has to be worth something like 30 or 40 million dollars. There is also a minimum share price for the NYSE.
Kickstarter is more like the OTC which lists penny stocks. OTC actually publishes exponentially more information than what I asked for. They have a a program called Compliance Analytics that is updated twice a day.
Oh yeah... and Kickstarter makes a flat 5% off the top. So the more extravagant Kickstarter's (MMOs) make them more money. If Kickstarter just had flat fees for each project then this would not be an issue, but instead, Kickstarter is incentivized to push the riskiest projects as they make the most profits. And yes, they push them as my inbox can attest.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I want to be clear, that there is no reason for Kickstarter to have all the data, of who did what, where, when, why and how. Keep in mind their involvement ends, the second the money changes hands. They make this very clear, many times over, that when the project timer is up on their platform, regardless if it reached it's goal or not, they are done with it
The Data they boast is their Successfully funded projects, and I want to say this again, "Funded" this is not to be confused with completed, because, again, once the money changes hands, Kickstarter removes themselves from the picture entirely, their part in the process now complete.
For the people wondering where the 9% comes from, it was done as a 3rd party Research Project by the University of Pennsylvania, that involved over 30,000 projects over the course of 6 years, and the results were published by news outlets, like Time magazine, for example. The results were also made aware to Kickstarter, who, while KS publicly thanked them for the info (Which they do not use on their official site), again, they made it clear they were not a store, and were not selling a product, and there was always a risk of failure with these kinds of ventures.
Some fun facts. The most common projects that fail are those that were asking for less then $1,000.
Now, reality check, Do I think the dozen or so MMO's that have gone through KS would have made some massive dent in their overall numbers. Well, when you consider that they have funded 198,484 projects to date, and raised over $5.6 Billion Dollars, the answer would be No.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Comments
If a 3rd party is profiting from the transaction (ie. Kickstarter's cut) and know that some of these profits are generated by fraud then they have a responsibility to perform some level of validation. What that level is... remains a bit unclear.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Let me fix this for you and see if you still agree with your statement.
"I have no idea why people are trying to punish The Pimp.
They make it clear, their entire platform is to connect Escorts with Johns.
The Pimp did nothing wrong, if the Escort screws people, than the Escort is the Asshole that did wrong and should be punished, not The Pimp."
If Kickstarter knows fraud is taking place they'd best get on informing the authorities as soon as possible to not only insulate themselves from potential legal fallout but to be as well positioned as they can when news of it breaks.
However, I think it likely their policy is to conduct business without probing into the inner workings of the projects and those behind them. If you don't look behind the curtain you don't have to deal with what could be found there.
Kickstarter doesn't knowingly facilitate fraudulent activity while everyone in your story would be knowingly breaking the law in the vast majority of locales. The two scenarios are in no way similar so neither would affect one's view of the other.
Crowd funding like ANY business is a success or failure based on the people who give them money.I am sure they would love to post NUMBERS liek we see so often on this site to brag about their success but it is ZERO indication of quality of service or product.It is an indication of the people giving and spending money.
There is only ONE WAY to do crowd funding properly,SHARES.So you offer up 49% of the shares and the books are open for people to see.ANYTHING else is just a scam an exploit to take advantage of dumb people.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Kickstarter certainly knows fraud is taking place on their platform. Way to many articles have come out for them to not know. So yes they are knowingly facilitating fraudulent activity. The only question is if that can be proven in court or if they knew beforehand or should have reasonably known.
This is no different than a message parlor or anywhere else illegal activities are taking place. The Pimp example could easily be running a dating service... Just a question of enforcement.
All it takes is 1 whistleblower, 1 court case, or one justice dept probe and that could all change.
Kickstarter is a platform, not a publisher.
Case in point, if you were picking up a friend at a diner, and had no idea they shot someone, should you be charged with murder, because you took them home?
As long as they do not publish or knowing engage in any illegal activity, they are not liable for what happens on their platform.
This is why AT&T is not responsible for what people say to each other across the phone, regardless of how shady or illegal it might be. Because AT&T does not monitor what happens on their platform, at all.
Everyone gets this, this is why we can't sue a phone company directly for any kind of lies, threats, or anything else that happens over the phone.
But there are limits on this, Allow me to explain that, maybe not for you, but for anyone else that might care.
The limit is, for Platforms, like Kickstarter, Facebook, MySpace, Etc, which hosts things, If something is reported to them as fraud/illegal/against their ToS, while they are actively hosting it, they have an obligation to respond to that flag/report and investigate it, and, make no mistake, they do so, as far as Kickstarter goes, swiftly, epically on the illegal or against the ToS aspects, and they will take it down, cancel the project and refund the backers while they still have the funds in their possession, and have a long history of doing so.
5 years after the project has left their platform, they are no longer directly involved with it.
I get that some people are butthurt, that they feel slighted, and I respect that, but, Kickstarter did nothing wrong.
You need to focus on the person that did, and make them pay, which is the con artist themselves, which is why I applaud the people that took CoE to court, and have pushed that case, as opposed to the people that cry about how KS needs to coddle them more.
What you are really saying, when you cry at Kickstarter, is that you can't be trusted to make smart decisions with your own money.
Hire an accountant, or you know, give your money to your mom or something, and let them handle your accounts till you grow up.
Especially if you helped them escape.
So.. you had no idea your friend committed a crime and you drove them home, should you be charged with the crime?
Or better yet, lets see how ostentatious we can go with this, Should the courts demand that you validate that your friend has not committed a crime before you pick them up?
Try telling that to the police if you drive your friend home after they rob a bank.
Also try and use that, if someone warns you ahead of time that your friend is likely going to rob the bank.
Kickstarter has reasonable knowledge. If enough fraud is committed, civil cases can come forward using negligence if they fail to do anything about it.
Of the 9% that flat out failed, some where due to the person overseeing the project just being incompetent, which is not fraud, and thankfully for many in our world, it's not illegal to be overconfident and stupid about it, yet.
and yes, some where direct fraud.
Given that one of the more famous fraud cases involved just a custom set of playing cards, which is not a hard thing to deliver, all things said and done, so this should have been an easy sale, they get some money, and you get a deck of playing cards with the creators custom art on it. For some insane reason, the person took the backers money and ran.
So, how exactly do you propose that Kickstarter magically know which project is fraud.
I would love to know, in fact, if you could figure that one out, you should sell it to Kickstarter, as I am sure they would love it.
I would bet some other Crowed Fund Platforms, like Xsolla are already considering this, thanks to CoE.
So, that might be the end knee jerk response from all this.
You are being way over the top with this. Do you think this is the first company to ever discover anti-fraud techniques.
There are so many anti-fraud things they could do its ridiculous to even list them for you.
I guarantee you if Kickstarter ever becomes liable for this by law or in court they will figure out in a hurry some ways to protect their customers.
This 9% failure from 1 survey you pulling from. Well how is a project failed if pretends to keep working on the project. This can go to infinity of time. I would be curious if this survey is recent or when it first started, because its a magnet for scams now.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
As long as humans and their promises are involved in a transaction, the potential for fraud will always exist.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Well, proof is the standard isn't it? Claimed and speculated wrongdoing may be sufficient for Salem witch trials and social media lynch mobs, but otherwise not.
There is a huge difference between knowingly participating in wrongdoing and having it occur without your knowledge.
Your assumption of knowledge of wrongdoing by Kickstarter has no factual basis. Until it does your comparison of it to those knowingly violating the law is invalid.
What all it takes is one of actually requires that one of to happen.
Kickstarter does not market certainty or oversight. They simply provide a platform that connects prospective projects with potential supporters.
What is desired is akin to expecting those operating stock markets to ensure the success of every company listed on them while overseeing their business conduct.
That isn't what speculative markets do.
Anyway, I wager platforms like Xsolla has already changed how they will do business with GaaS Studio's now, thanks to what CoE has dragged them into.
My point was clearly around the 91% "success" number that was tossed out as some kind of proof that there was no problem. That number is utterly misleading when we look at MMORPGs launched on the site. Kickstarter has all the data. They advertise and push out emails to solicit money for projects based on their type. I think it would be eye opening to have a legit number that showed the rate of these projects that launched successfully (reasonably on time and reasonably complete with what they promised).
Also, the comparison to the stock market really falls flat. Kickstarter makes money based on a one time transaction with each company. After the campaign ends, they are proud to say that their relationship with that company ends as well.
The NYSE on the other hand makes money through an ongoing relationship with each company that will pay them fees. Also, to be listed on the NYSE there are actual requirements that serve as a check as to whether the company is listing worthy. It has to have 400 shareholders. It was to have over a million dollars in publicly traded stock and that stock has to be worth something like 30 or 40 million dollars. There is also a minimum share price for the NYSE.
Kickstarter is more like the OTC which lists penny stocks. OTC actually publishes exponentially more information than what I asked for. They have a a program called Compliance Analytics that is updated twice a day.
Oh yeah... and Kickstarter makes a flat 5% off the top. So the more extravagant Kickstarter's (MMOs) make them more money. If Kickstarter just had flat fees for each project then this would not be an issue, but instead, Kickstarter is incentivized to push the riskiest projects as they make the most profits. And yes, they push them as my inbox can attest.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
https://massivelyop.com/2019/10/09/perfect-ten-kickstarter-mmos-that-raised-the-most-money/
The Data they boast is their Successfully funded projects, and I want to say this again, "Funded" this is not to be confused with completed, because, again, once the money changes hands, Kickstarter removes themselves from the picture entirely, their part in the process now complete.
For the people wondering where the 9% comes from, it was done as a 3rd party Research Project by the University of Pennsylvania, that involved over 30,000 projects over the course of 6 years, and the results were published by news outlets, like Time magazine, for example. The results were also made aware to Kickstarter, who, while KS publicly thanked them for the info (Which they do not use on their official site), again, they made it clear they were not a store, and were not selling a product, and there was always a risk of failure with these kinds of ventures.
Some fun facts. The most common projects that fail are those that were asking for less then $1,000.
Now, reality check, Do I think the dozen or so MMO's that have gone through KS would have made some massive dent in their overall numbers. Well, when you consider that they have funded 198,484 projects to date, and raised over $5.6 Billion Dollars, the answer would be No.