Personally, I don't want a game to modify the content to suit individual players' abilities. I want to be able to see my progress, Character wise as well as me personally, as the Player. I want to see how well I'm doing, compare it to others, and see where I weigh in on the scale. That way I can actually improve myself, and see the results, and actually get a sense of accomplishment.
I did that in UO, my first MMORPG. I wasn't a "gamer" before that, and I was well behind real gamers as a Player. But I watched, I read, and I saw where I needed to improve. I did improve, even in PvP, and got to be just as good at playing games as anyone else. Well, almost as good, maybe. lol
But I enjoy seeing other players succeed beyond the norm as much as I want to. It adds a sense that I'm really in the same world as other, real people. That's much better than being handed a modified game tailored to me, however dumb I might be. I can't feel justifiably proud in that sort of thing.
I think this is the core of the issue.
Players don't want to be continually be challenged, they want a feeling of being able to go back to older or previous content, and being able to roll it. They want to be able to farm that epic sword of ass kicking and be able to go back to a quest and beat the big bad, with far less issues and problems.
They want to be able to memorize choreographed mechanics, so that they can do the quest easier and easier.
They do not want a AI where the Big Bad changes tactics, or hell, even the normal mobs plan for their arrival and adjust accordingly to beat them down and make them struggle for that win.. every.. single.. fucking.. time.
Gamers will gravitate to the path of least resistance, this is why games like GW2, which was touted as a Casuals Playpen was such smashing successes at their start, players wanted the easy path to loot and a sense of progress, where games like Wild Star, which was advertised as a horncore's judgment style game, failed hard.
Even PvP games, players want whatever they play as to be the apex big shits. Look at Crowfall, all the these DAOC White Knights go charging in talking about how large open battles will solve all the games balance issues, and then make 10 person guilds, and wonder why the large 500 person guilds are beating their assess into the floor.
So they cry that their way playing is not giving them an advantage, and leave, because it's just too hard for them.
The end result is players don't like losing or being stonewalled.
The downsize is, they also want a game where they are special, where the content is just hard enough for them, but too hard for everyone else, so they get to be special snowflakes.
an AI, would be able to fix this, not only could it provide a solid challenge, but it could also reward loot accordingly.
Anthem had something like that set up, know what players did? They purposely failed things, to give themselves a lower skill score, so the game would give them more rewards when they did harder content.
Yah.. players don't want AI, they want something they can beat.
All of that is true. But there's a big qualifier in this. What we see is what's presented. We don't see gamers who want more challenge, because they are either not playing MMORPGs at all (they sure showed up for those MOBAs though), or they are silently just accepting what games we are given.
I can't prove anything. There's no way to gather numbers. But I could never accept that this is the only sorts of Gamers out there. Imagine a world where there are ONLY fast food restaurants. You could never prove that fine food establishments could work.
But people are people, and there's all kinds. You just need to give them all an outlet if you want to see them all participating.
It is a matter of balance, I am not suggesting we play on the net against a Cyberpunk AI that's dipping in Black Ice here, just that there are areas of challenge. Every mob fight in a MMO does not have to be a boss fight.
Personally, I don't want a game to modify the content to suit individual players' abilities. I want to be able to see my progress, Character wise as well as me personally, as the Player. I want to see how well I'm doing, compare it to others, and see where I weigh in on the scale. That way I can actually improve myself, and see the results, and actually get a sense of accomplishment.
I did that in UO, my first MMORPG. I wasn't a "gamer" before that, and I was well behind real gamers as a Player. But I watched, I read, and I saw where I needed to improve. I did improve, even in PvP, and got to be just as good at playing games as anyone else. Well, almost as good, maybe. lol
But I enjoy seeing other players succeed beyond the norm as much as I want to. It adds a sense that I'm really in the same world as other, real people. That's much better than being handed a modified game tailored to me, however dumb I might be. I can't feel justifiably proud in that sort of thing.
I think this is the core of the issue.
Players don't want to be continually be challenged, they want a feeling of being able to go back to older or previous content, and being able to roll it. They want to be able to farm that epic sword of ass kicking and be able to go back to a quest and beat the big bad, with far less issues and problems.
They want to be able to memorize choreographed mechanics, so that they can do the quest easier and easier.
They do not want a AI where the Big Bad changes tactics, or hell, even the normal mobs plan for their arrival and adjust accordingly to beat them down and make them struggle for that win.. every.. single.. fucking.. time.
Gamers will gravitate to the path of least resistance, this is why games like GW2, which was touted as a Casuals Playpen was such smashing successes at their start, players wanted the easy path to loot and a sense of progress, where games like Wild Star, which was advertised as a horncore's judgment style game, failed hard.
Even PvP games, players want whatever they play as to be the apex big shits. Look at Crowfall, all the these DAOC White Knights go charging in talking about how large open battles will solve all the games balance issues, and then make 10 person guilds, and wonder why the large 500 person guilds are beating their assess into the floor.
So they cry that their way playing is not giving them an advantage, and leave, because it's just too hard for them.
The end result is players don't like losing or being stonewalled.
The downsize is, they also want a game where they are special, where the content is just hard enough for them, but too hard for everyone else, so they get to be special snowflakes.
an AI, would be able to fix this, not only could it provide a solid challenge, but it could also reward loot accordingly.
Anthem had something like that set up, know what players did? They purposely failed things, to give themselves a lower skill score, so the game would give them more rewards when they did harder content.
Yah.. players don't want AI, they want something they can beat.
All of that is true. But there's a big qualifier in this. What we see is what's presented. We don't see gamers who want more challenge, because they are either not playing MMORPGs at all (they sure showed up for those MOBAs though), or they are silently just accepting what games we are given.
I can't prove anything. There's no way to gather numbers. But I could never accept that this is the only sorts of Gamers out there. Imagine a world where there are ONLY fast food restaurants. You could never prove that fine food establishments could work.
But people are people, and there's all kinds. You just need to give them all an outlet if you want to see them all participating.
Fair point, but again, the failure of Hard, or Marketed as Hard MMO's, shows that, while there might be some people that want that challenge, there are simply not enough of them to be profitable.
Just like there are guilds that push to be First in WoW, and some other games, but, those players are not what is keeping the game alive, they are a very, very, small demographic.
But they exist, and in some cases, are the right group to cater to, Case in point, DDO put in Reaper Mode, for people that wanted harder content, it does not offer better rewards than Elite. Players seem to love it. But then again, DDO also has Easy, Normal, Hard, and Elite mode as well, so that everyone is not required to do the hard stuff just to enjoy the game.
Just to give an example, GW2 bragged that they had around a 20% turnout when they launched raids, now GW2 has PvP, it has World vs World and SPvP (Arena Battles), so this is not a game that is lacking of players that are looking for a fight. So they had 20% turnout for raids, and...... then those numbers must have dropped off, because their sales tanked hard after that, and have not recovered.
So do players want challenge? Ideally, some, but, not enough to make them a priority.
MOBA's and BR's are a different monster, as they are PvP games, not MMO's, they focus on the skill of the player vs player, where MMO's are more about Character vs Character/Environment with player skill playing less a role in the combat, still a role, but less of one, and the players knowledge base and skill is more applied in how to make a meta build.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Also can we stop using the term AI when literally talking about scripts, there is no intelligence here, it is literally just an npc waiting for a que to use an ability.
A script is a convenient way to add behavior to an NPC. It is a form of AI, just a rudimentary one, accessible to most programmers and the occasional manager. It's not like games will be hiring LISP programmers tomorrow to tackle the need to put intelligence in games. Scripts are cheap implementations for low priority tasks.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
The three main reasons are 1) system resources, 2) there really isn't any data to support that players REALLY do want more intelligent AI, and 3) it would either be just a more complex pattern or it would outskill the players, neither of which is desirable
You forgot the most important part,
4) Cost.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Personally, I don't want a game to modify the content to suit individual players' abilities. I want to be able to see my progress, Character wise as well as me personally, as the Player. I want to see how well I'm doing, compare it to others, and see where I weigh in on the scale. That way I can actually improve myself, and see the results, and actually get a sense of accomplishment.
I did that in UO, my first MMORPG. I wasn't a "gamer" before that, and I was well behind real gamers as a Player. But I watched, I read, and I saw where I needed to improve. I did improve, even in PvP, and got to be just as good at playing games as anyone else. Well, almost as good, maybe. lol
But I enjoy seeing other players succeed beyond the norm as much as I want to. It adds a sense that I'm really in the same world as other, real people. That's much better than being handed a modified game tailored to me, however dumb I might be. I can't feel justifiably proud in that sort of thing.
I think this is the core of the issue.
Players don't want to be continually be challenged, they want a feeling of being able to go back to older or previous content, and being able to roll it. They want to be able to farm that epic sword of ass kicking and be able to go back to a quest and beat the big bad, with far less issues and problems.
They want to be able to memorize choreographed mechanics, so that they can do the quest easier and easier.
They do not want a AI where the Big Bad changes tactics, or hell, even the normal mobs plan for their arrival and adjust accordingly to beat them down and make them struggle for that win.. every.. single.. fucking.. time.
Gamers will gravitate to the path of least resistance, this is why games like GW2, which was touted as a Casuals Playpen was such smashing successes at their start, players wanted the easy path to loot and a sense of progress, where games like Wild Star, which was advertised as a horncore's judgment style game, failed hard.
Even PvP games, players want whatever they play as to be the apex big shits. Look at Crowfall, all the these DAOC White Knights go charging in talking about how large open battles will solve all the games balance issues, and then make 10 person guilds, and wonder why the large 500 person guilds are beating their assess into the floor.
So they cry that their way playing is not giving them an advantage, and leave, because it's just too hard for them.
The end result is players don't like losing or being stonewalled.
The downsize is, they also want a game where they are special, where the content is just hard enough for them, but too hard for everyone else, so they get to be special snowflakes.
an AI, would be able to fix this, not only could it provide a solid challenge, but it could also reward loot accordingly.
Anthem had something like that set up, know what players did? They purposely failed things, to give themselves a lower skill score, so the game would give them more rewards when they did harder content.
Yah.. players don't want AI, they want something they can beat.
All of that is true. But there's a big qualifier in this. What we see is what's presented. We don't see gamers who want more challenge, because they are either not playing MMORPGs at all (they sure showed up for those MOBAs though), or they are silently just accepting what games we are given.
I can't prove anything. There's no way to gather numbers. But I could never accept that this is the only sorts of Gamers out there. Imagine a world where there are ONLY fast food restaurants. You could never prove that fine food establishments could work.
But people are people, and there's all kinds. You just need to give them all an outlet if you want to see them all participating.
Fair point, but again, the failure of Hard, or Marketed as Hard MMO's, shows that, while there might be some people that want that challenge, there are simply not enough of them to be profitable.
Just like there are guilds that push to be First in WoW, and some other games, but, those players are not what is keeping the game alive, they are a very, very, small demographic.
But they exist, and in some cases, are the right group to cater to, Case in point, DDO put in Reaper Mode, for people that wanted harder content, it does not offer better rewards than Elite. Players seem to love it. But then again, DDO also has Easy, Normal, Hard, and Elite mode as well, so that everyone is not required to do the hard stuff just to enjoy the game.
Just to give an example, GW2 bragged that they had around a 20% turnout when they launched raids, now GW2 has PvP, it has World vs World and SPvP (Arena Battles), so this is not a game that is lacking of players that are looking for a fight. So they had 20% turnout for raids, and...... then those numbers must have dropped off, because their sales tanked hard after that, and have not recovered.
So do players want challenge? Ideally, some, but, not enough to make them a priority.
MOBA's and BR's are a different monster, as they are PvP games, not MMO's, they focus on the skill of the player vs player, where MMO's are more about Character vs Character/Environment with player skill playing less a role in the combat, still a role, but less of one, and the players knowledge base and skill is more applied in how to make a meta build.
I'm not aware of any games that marketed themselves (primarily) as "hard." But if there were, they probably said it would be "more challenging" in their marketing (because gamers really do want that) but failed to actually produce in a proper way. At any rate, I highly doubt that a proper "challenge" caused any games to fall flat. It's more likely that the games simply sucked, or otherwise just were not appealing.
Lets be real here. When we call for more challenge, what we're really saying is that we're tired of MOBs that just stand around and die. More or less, anyways.
Why are you pigeonholing MMOs like that, in your last paragraph? Just because that's the way they make them? It's exactly the point that we want something different FROM what they've been making.
Ungood said: MMO's are more about Character vs Character/Environment with player skill playing less a role in the combat, still a role, but less of one, and the players knowledge base and skill is more applied in how to make a meta build.
Why are you pigeonholing MMOs like that, in your last paragraph? Just because that's the way they make them?
Pretty much, yah.
I mean lets be honest, that is the way MMO's are made, and they are made that way to appeal and attract that demographic of players, players that don't want their toon to be stuck with using the same weapon at cap that they started with.
MMO's put a lot of effort into their character progress systems, as such, in those games, the focus is more on the players ability to design and build the ultimate character, not so much their personal ability to button mash.
And truth be told, IMHO, that is a good point of division between what makes a Good MMO and what makes a Good PvP game. The PvP game is all about the Players Skill, the MMO is about the Character Progression. I think that is a good way to look at them, and also a solid rason why they don't work well together.
Now, I wager there are some players that might want a zero progress MMO, (for the life of me I have no idea how they would work) but I would bet cold hard cash there are less of them then there are those that would play hard mode purely for the shits and giggles of it.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
The three main reasons are 1) system resources, 2) there really isn't any data to support that players REALLY do want more intelligent AI, and 3) it would either be just a more complex pattern or it would outskill the players, neither of which is desirable
You forgot the most important part,
4) Cost.
It's a "feature" like any other feature that defines the game.
Are you saying games should have no features, and be free ? I assumed everyone is looking for a new feature.
Ungood said: MMO's are more about Character vs Character/Environment with player skill playing less a role in the combat, still a role, but less of one, and the players knowledge base and skill is more applied in how to make a meta build.
Why are you pigeonholing MMOs like that, in your last paragraph? Just because that's the way they make them?
Pretty much, yah.
I mean lets be honest, that is the way MMO's are made, and they are made that way to appeal and attract that demographic of players, players that don't want their toon to be stuck with using the same weapon at cap that they started with.
MMO's put a lot of effort into their character progress systems, as such, in those games, the focus is more on the players ability to design and build the ultimate character, not so much their personal ability to button mash.
And truth be told, IMHO, that is a good point of division between what makes a Good MMO and what makes a Good PvP game. The PvP game is all about the Players Skill, the MMO is about the Character Progression. I think that is a good way to look at them, and also a solid rason why they don't work well together.
Now, I wager there are some players that might want a zero progress MMO, (for the life of me I have no idea how they would work) but I would bet cold hard cash there are less of them then there are those that would play hard mode purely for the shits and giggles of it.
I only pointed to MOBAs to show that a lot of gamers still want challenge. I don't want a MOBA design as an MMORPG. I also don't want this standardized MMORPG design that people can't break the spell of, I do not and never have considered that a good design for a "massively multiplayer" game about being in a "World" with huge numbers of other Players.
Where's this "zero progress" MMO come in here? I have never supported it. I've only seen a very few, like 3 maybe, posts saying they wanted that, over the many years I've been here. That's different than Horizontal Progression, where you gain new abilities as opposed to bigger numbers as you play.
Ungood said: MMO's are more about Character vs Character/Environment with player skill playing less a role in the combat, still a role, but less of one, and the players knowledge base and skill is more applied in how to make a meta build.
Why are you pigeonholing MMOs like that, in your last paragraph? Just because that's the way they make them?
Pretty much, yah.
I mean lets be honest, that is the way MMO's are made, and they are made that way to appeal and attract that demographic of players, players that don't want their toon to be stuck with using the same weapon at cap that they started with.
MMO's put a lot of effort into their character progress systems, as such, in those games, the focus is more on the players ability to design and build the ultimate character, not so much their personal ability to button mash.
And truth be told, IMHO, that is a good point of division between what makes a Good MMO and what makes a Good PvP game. The PvP game is all about the Players Skill, the MMO is about the Character Progression. I think that is a good way to look at them, and also a solid rason why they don't work well together.
Now, I wager there are some players that might want a zero progress MMO, (for the life of me I have no idea how they would work) but I would bet cold hard cash there are less of them then there are those that would play hard mode purely for the shits and giggles of it.
I only pointed to MOBAs to show that a lot of gamers still want challenge. I don't want a MOBA design as an MMORPG. I also don't want this standardized MMORPG design that people can't break the spell of, I do not and never have considered that a good design for a "massively multiplayer" game about being in a "World" with huge numbers of other Players.
Where's this "zero progress" MMO come in here? I have never supported it. I've only seen a very few, like 3 maybe, posts saying they wanted that, over the many years I've been here. That's different than Horizontal Progression, where you gain new abilities as opposed to bigger numbers as you play.
Oh, let me guess, you one of the people that want some kind of Horizontal Progression MMO.
Yah, that's not going to happen.
I mean, to use an easy example of why this won't work, would be to use GW2, where once a player makes it to Cap (80th level) Almost all progression goes Horizontal, with the exception of some gear options, and then there is only a 10% variance IIRC, I could be wrong on that.
But, in any case, the idea of Horizontal Progression is an illusion, even in GW2, when you have capped players, a Optimized Meta Build, can output upwards to 10x the damage of an un-optimized build, even if all other stats and gear were the same.
So the idea of the progress being Horizontal equating to it being balanced or fair, is purely an illusion.
And with that in mind, a game with no sense of upward progression, does not provide much in the way of incentive to play it, at least not in the PvE sense.
PvP games, where the whole game is about the thrill of the fight, and the idea of winning and losing, based on your skill as a player, have their own thrill to them, and are designed to attract that demographic of players.
But IMHO, that simply will not work for PvE games, for the same reason that players don't want a real AI that will always custom set the encounter for them, and push them to the line, no matter what they do in the game, it will forever remain a struggle.
Even you expressed that you like the idea of being able to trivialize content by building your character up, making it stronger, and no joke, you are very much not alone on that.
As that is the very demographic that is attracted to MMO's, given how they are often made, MMO players want means of progression, where if they can't beat some content at this time, they can find some way to improve their character, make it stronger, and come back and beat that content.
Otherwise you are making a Gameworld where players become dead ended and stonewalled, which is, IMHO, not a strong selling point.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
The three main reasons are 1) system resources, 2) there really isn't any data to support that players REALLY do want more intelligent AI, and 3) it would either be just a more complex pattern or it would outskill the players, neither of which is desirable
You forgot the most important part,
4) Cost.
It's a "feature" like any other feature that defines the game.
Are you saying games should have no features, and be free ? I assumed everyone is looking for a new feature.
Sorry, I should have been more precise.
It's cost to the developers. AI coding is expensive, and as @LynxJSA said, computing resource intensive. Dedicated AI programming languages are expensive to buy, and learning to use them to solve AI-type problems is relatively rare. Most universities don't really offer more than an 'Introduction to AI' level course at the undergraduate level, so exposure to an AI-specific language such as LISP, Prolog, or Scala usually occurs in graduate level courses. Plus, a real devotion to AI.
So, lots of game AI ends up being done by general programmers using more commonplace tools, like Java, C++ or Python. This approach is simply cheaper for the developer.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
The three main reasons are 1) system resources, 2) there really isn't any data to support that players REALLY do want more intelligent AI, and 3) it would either be just a more complex pattern or it would outskill the players, neither of which is desirable
You forgot the most important part,
4) Cost.
It's a "feature" like any other feature that defines the game.
Are you saying games should have no features, and be free ? I assumed everyone is looking for a new feature.
Sorry, I should have been more precise.
It's cost to the developers. AI coding is expensive, and as @LynxJSA said, computing resource intensive. Dedicated AI programming languages are expensive to buy, and learning to use them to solve AI-type problems is relatively rare. Most universities don't really offer more than an 'Introduction to AI' level course at the undergraduate level, so exposure to an AI-specific language such as LISP, Prolog, or Scala usually occurs in graduate level courses. Plus, a real devotion to AI.
So, lots of game AI ends up being done by general programmers using more commonplace tools, like Java, C++ or Python. This approach is simply cheaper for the developer.
OK, well thanks for clearing that up with your fancy talk.
I remember in WoW in BfA where they said they would use advanced npc algorithms to make mythic islands challenging and I started imagining hyper coordinated NPCs that would use different tactics like all 3 using high burst abilities to delete one player, coordinating consecutive CCs, 0.1 second interrupts, dot and kite tactics, all easily programmable since all they had to do is think of different actual arena strategies and add them to their script.
And instead we got dumb npcs who happen to use a few class abilities lol.
In GW1 groups of enemies had abilities that mechanically synergized with each other. There was no need of advanced AI, just a good pick of enemy abilities and a little bit of scripting. Best way to defeat them was to create a dedicated build against them.
The mobs were also not standing in place. They were patrolling. And sometimes the patrols were converging creating unwinnable fights if you were too slow to defeat the first one encountered.
I understand entirely that my first point is rarely transmissible to other games because it was depending on GW1 very special (and amazing) gameplay.
However I see only design lazyness to not see the converging patrolling mobs in other games. From a programming perspective that is not so hard...
I remember in WoW in BfA where they said they would use advanced npc algorithms to make mythic islands challenging and I started imagining hyper coordinated NPCs that would use different tactics like all 3 using high burst abilities to delete one player, coordinating consecutive CCs, 0.1 second interrupts, dot and kite tactics, all easily programmable since all they had to do is think of different actual arena strategies and add them to their script.
And instead we got dumb npcs who happen to use a few class abilities lol.
In GW1 groups of enemies had abilities that mechanically synergized with each other. There was no need of advanced AI, just a good pick of enemy abilities and a little bit of scripting. Best way to defeat them was to create a dedicated build against them.
The mobs were also not standing in place. They were patrolling. And sometimes the patrols were converging creating unwinnable fights if you were too slow to defeat the first one encountered.
I understand entirely that my first point is rarely transmissible to other games because it was depending on GW1 very special (and amazing) gameplay.
However I see only design lazyness to not see the converging patrolling mobs in other games. From a programming perspective that is not so hard...
And it was fun and challenging.
I gave this post an awesome because some early mmorpgs had some amazing AI that can't be ignored.
Such as Vanilla WoW. Who can forget the Merlocs and some human mobs where they would on low health run away and bring back friends. Or mages that would stand their ground and cast the hell out of you, but if you ran around a corner they would follow you, so you could pull them away from their friends. This was a trick in Scarlet Monetary, that if used would make the dungeon much easer. As a matter of fact, twice as easy !!
I would key on and appricate WoW's AI maybe more so than others because I often played a Rogue and would push my limits by fighting higher levels AND WATHCING HOW EVERYTHING would respond...... At times I would spend five minuets timing their paths in stealth mode.
Who can remember the escort quest in Westfall and even today, it's a quest that players look forward to...... kind of early days dynamic event.
I gave this post an awesome because some early mmorpgs had some amazing AI that can't be ignored.
Such as Vanilla WoW. Who can forget the Merlocs and some human mobs where they would on low health run away and bring back friends. Or mages that would stand their ground and cast the hell out of you, but if you ran around a corner they would follow you, so you could pull them away from their friends.
I don't think you understand what AI means. Artificial intelligence.
What you just listed here is a simple "if (health<20%) run();" test in the code, or for the case of mages being pulled by line of sight, artificial stupidity rather than intelligence.
That's actually mechanics that people who talk about real AI for mobs despise and want to disappear.
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
Ungood said: MMO's are more about Character vs Character/Environment with player skill playing less a role in the combat, still a role, but less of one, and the players knowledge base and skill is more applied in how to make a meta build.
Why are you pigeonholing MMOs like that, in your last paragraph? Just because that's the way they make them?
Pretty much, yah.
I mean lets be honest, that is the way MMO's are made, and they are made that way to appeal and attract that demographic of players, players that don't want their toon to be stuck with using the same weapon at cap that they started with.
MMO's put a lot of effort into their character progress systems, as such, in those games, the focus is more on the players ability to design and build the ultimate character, not so much their personal ability to button mash.
And truth be told, IMHO, that is a good point of division between what makes a Good MMO and what makes a Good PvP game. The PvP game is all about the Players Skill, the MMO is about the Character Progression. I think that is a good way to look at them, and also a solid rason why they don't work well together.
Now, I wager there are some players that might want a zero progress MMO, (for the life of me I have no idea how they would work) but I would bet cold hard cash there are less of them then there are those that would play hard mode purely for the shits and giggles of it.
I only pointed to MOBAs to show that a lot of gamers still want challenge. I don't want a MOBA design as an MMORPG. I also don't want this standardized MMORPG design that people can't break the spell of, I do not and never have considered that a good design for a "massively multiplayer" game about being in a "World" with huge numbers of other Players.
Where's this "zero progress" MMO come in here? I have never supported it. I've only seen a very few, like 3 maybe, posts saying they wanted that, over the many years I've been here. That's different than Horizontal Progression, where you gain new abilities as opposed to bigger numbers as you play.
Oh, let me guess, you one of the people that want some kind of Horizontal Progression MMO.
Yah, that's not going to happen.
I mean, to use an easy example of why this won't work, would be to use GW2, where once a player makes it to Cap (80th level) Almost all progression goes Horizontal, with the exception of some gear options, and then there is only a 10% variance IIRC, I could be wrong on that.
But, in any case, the idea of Horizontal Progression is an illusion, even in GW2, when you have capped players, a Optimized Meta Build, can output upwards to 10x the damage of an un-optimized build, even if all other stats and gear were the same.
So the idea of the progress being Horizontal equating to it being balanced or fair, is purely an illusion.
And with that in mind, a game with no sense of upward progression, does not provide much in the way of incentive to play it, at least not in the PvE sense.
PvP games, where the whole game is about the thrill of the fight, and the idea of winning and losing, based on your skill as a player, have their own thrill to them, and are designed to attract that demographic of players.
But IMHO, that simply will not work for PvE games, for the same reason that players don't want a real AI that will always custom set the encounter for them, and push them to the line, no matter what they do in the game, it will forever remain a struggle.
Even you expressed that you like the idea of being able to trivialize content by building your character up, making it stronger, and no joke, you are very much not alone on that.
As that is the very demographic that is attracted to MMO's, given how they are often made, MMO players want means of progression, where if they can't beat some content at this time, they can find some way to improve their character, make it stronger, and come back and beat that content.
Otherwise you are making a Gameworld where players become dead ended and stonewalled, which is, IMHO, not a strong selling point.
You're making some assumptions here. I do want progression. Just not the extremes we see in MMORPGs. This is what I've said repeatedly.
In a sense you are right about "horizontal progression" being a bit of an illusion. You'd still progress and become more powerful. More powerful by being able to defeat more of the games content, if nothing else. But I still prefer some vertical progression mixed into a basically horizontal system. Because I do recognize that players want to feel that advancement. I do too.
You mentioned the demographic that plays MMORPGs, but you won't accept that they play them on a "this is what you get" basis. Some want those extreme Power Gaps, but not all need or really want that. I'm absolutely sure, beyond doubt, that those Gaps can be reduced drastically, and Gamers would still like any game that's made well, with any losses easily made up by Gamers who are looking for the greater social interactions with other Players when their game world isn't divided into level lots. With the freedom to break out of those confined zones without the need for artificial fixes to that problem (Scaling).
I gave this post an awesome because some early mmorpgs had some amazing AI that can't be ignored.
Such as Vanilla WoW. Who can forget the Merlocs and some human mobs where they would on low health run away and bring back friends. Or mages that would stand their ground and cast the hell out of you, but if you ran around a corner they would follow you, so you could pull them away from their friends.
I don't think you understand what AI means. Artificial intelligence.
What you just listed here is a simple "if (health<20%) run();" test in the code, or for the case of mages being pulled by line of sight, artificial stupidity rather than intelligence.
That's actually mechanics that people who talk about real AI for mobs despise and want to disappear.
I think AI is anything that responds to an action could be considered AI. Maybe in a rudimentary form but still AI.
I gave this post an awesome because some early mmorpgs had some amazing AI that can't be ignored.
Such as Vanilla WoW. Who can forget the Merlocs and some human mobs where they would on low health run away and bring back friends. Or mages that would stand their ground and cast the hell out of you, but if you ran around a corner they would follow you, so you could pull them away from their friends.
I don't think you understand what AI means. Artificial intelligence.
What you just listed here is a simple "if (health<20%) run();" test in the code, or for the case of mages being pulled by line of sight, artificial stupidity rather than intelligence.
That's actually mechanics that people who talk about real AI for mobs despise and want to disappear.
I think AI is anything that responds to an action could be considered AI. Maybe in a rudimentary form but still AI.
You are correct. It is still simulating intelligence.
A feat that is getting harder and harder for our forum members! Just a joke - relax, I don't care.
Constantine, The Console Poster
"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
I gave this post an awesome because some early mmorpgs had some amazing AI that can't be ignored.
Such as Vanilla WoW. Who can forget the Merlocs and some human mobs where they would on low health run away and bring back friends. Or mages that would stand their ground and cast the hell out of you, but if you ran around a corner they would follow you, so you could pull them away from their friends.
I don't think you understand what AI means. Artificial intelligence.
What you just listed here is a simple "if (health<20%) run();" test in the code, or for the case of mages being pulled by line of sight, artificial stupidity rather than intelligence.
That's actually mechanics that people who talk about real AI for mobs despise and want to disappear.
I think AI is anything that responds to an action could be considered AI. Maybe in a rudimentary form but still AI.
Anyone arguing that a "mage" running at you as soon as you are out of sight is "AI" can't be taken seriously.
That's a gimmick video game feature, yeah, and it works in all MMOs, but it's definitely not intelligence, even if artificial.
An artificial true intelligence would run for help, and come back with numbers to crush the passive invaders hiding behind that wall. Actually, a kind of "mix" between your murlock behavior and mage behavior, made smarter.
But then, dungeons would just no be doable for most parts. Any mob seeing his allies slaughtered would run for help like a human would do, and you would get wiped every pack of trash.
Actually, if there was any kind of "true" intelligence in MMOs, any allied mob within eye sight reach or ear reach would come to help the pack you are attacking, and you would die miserably over and over again.
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
I gave this post an awesome because some early mmorpgs had some amazing AI that can't be ignored.
Such as Vanilla WoW. Who can forget the Merlocs and some human mobs where they would on low health run away and bring back friends. Or mages that would stand their ground and cast the hell out of you, but if you ran around a corner they would follow you, so you could pull them away from their friends.
I don't think you understand what AI means. Artificial intelligence.
What you just listed here is a simple "if (health<20%) run();" test in the code, or for the case of mages being pulled by line of sight, artificial stupidity rather than intelligence.
That's actually mechanics that people who talk about real AI for mobs despise and want to disappear.
I think AI is anything that responds to an action could be considered AI. Maybe in a rudimentary form but still AI.
Actually, a kind of "mix" between your murlock behavior and mage behavior, made smarter.
NO...... Your adding your version of a definition for AI.
By saying you would agree if a two step process happened, Murlocks and Mage.
I gave this post an awesome because some early mmorpgs had some amazing AI that can't be ignored.
Such as Vanilla WoW. Who can forget the Merlocs and some human mobs where they would on low health run away and bring back friends. Or mages that would stand their ground and cast the hell out of you, but if you ran around a corner they would follow you, so you could pull them away from their friends.
I don't think you understand what AI means. Artificial intelligence.
What you just listed here is a simple "if (health<20%) run();" test in the code, or for the case of mages being pulled by line of sight, artificial stupidity rather than intelligence.
That's actually mechanics that people who talk about real AI for mobs despise and want to disappear.
I think AI is anything that responds to an action could be considered AI. Maybe in a rudimentary form but still AI.
Actually, a kind of "mix" between your murlock behavior and mage behavior, made smarter.
NO...... Your adding your version of a definition for AI.
By saying you would agree if a two step process happened, Murlocks and Mage.
Your creating your own threshold.
Answer to the full post and we'll talk again.
Until then, you are dismissed for being just another (very) artificial intelligence.
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
I only pointed to MOBAs to show that a lot of gamers still want challenge. I don't want a MOBA design as an MMORPG. I also don't want this standardized MMORPG design that people can't break the spell of, I do not and never have considered that a good design for a "massively multiplayer" game about being in a "World" with huge numbers of other Players.
Where's this "zero progress" MMO come in here? I have never supported it. I've only seen a very few, like 3 maybe, posts saying they wanted that, over the many years I've been here. That's different than Horizontal Progression, where you gain new abilities as opposed to bigger numbers as you play.
Oh, let me guess, you one of the people that want some kind of Horizontal Progression MMO.
Yah, that's not going to happen.
I mean, to use an easy example of why this won't work, would be to use GW2, where once a player makes it to Cap (80th level) Almost all progression goes Horizontal, with the exception of some gear options, and then there is only a 10% variance IIRC, I could be wrong on that.
But, in any case, the idea of Horizontal Progression is an illusion, even in GW2, when you have capped players, a Optimized Meta Build, can output upwards to 10x the damage of an un-optimized build, even if all other stats and gear were the same.
So the idea of the progress being Horizontal equating to it being balanced or fair, is purely an illusion.
And with that in mind, a game with no sense of upward progression, does not provide much in the way of incentive to play it, at least not in the PvE sense.
PvP games, where the whole game is about the thrill of the fight, and the idea of winning and losing, based on your skill as a player, have their own thrill to them, and are designed to attract that demographic of players.
But IMHO, that simply will not work for PvE games, for the same reason that players don't want a real AI that will always custom set the encounter for them, and push them to the line, no matter what they do in the game, it will forever remain a struggle.
Even you expressed that you like the idea of being able to trivialize content by building your character up, making it stronger, and no joke, you are very much not alone on that.
As that is the very demographic that is attracted to MMO's, given how they are often made, MMO players want means of progression, where if they can't beat some content at this time, they can find some way to improve their character, make it stronger, and come back and beat that content.
Otherwise you are making a Gameworld where players become dead ended and stonewalled, which is, IMHO, not a strong selling point.
You're making some assumptions here. I do want progression. Just not the extremes we see in MMORPGs. This is what I've said repeatedly.
In a sense you are right about "horizontal progression" being a bit of an illusion. You'd still progress and become more powerful. More powerful by being able to defeat more of the games content, if nothing else. But I still prefer some vertical progression mixed into a basically horizontal system. Because I do recognize that players want to feel that advancement. I do too.
You mentioned the demographic that plays MMORPGs, but you won't accept that they play them on a "this is what you get" basis. Some want those extreme Power Gaps, but not all need or really want that. I'm absolutely sure, beyond doubt, that those Gaps can be reduced drastically, and Gamers would still like any game that's made well, with any losses easily made up by Gamers who are looking for the greater social interactions with other Players when their game world isn't divided into level lots. With the freedom to break out of those confined zones without the need for artificial fixes to that problem (Scaling).
I am legit not sure what you mean by this power disparity, as the MMO's I have played do not give huge massive jumps in power per level, it's a process.
I dunno, maybe some exist like that, where each level is a massive jump in power, but for me, as far back as EQ, a level 10 and a level 12 could still group and hunt together in the same zones, killing the same mobs, it wasn't like a level 11 was just exponentially more powerful than the level 10.
Sure, a level 10 and a level 20, could not group, but we are talking 10 levels of progress, and it seems reasonable they are not in the same playing field.
Again, not sure if you have a specific game in mind, but IMHO, it's a progression, not huge massive jumps, you build up to things, no one should be a young farm hand picking up a sword one day and suddenly be able to slay dragons, or even hold their own against a trained solder, who still has no chance in hell against a dragon either.
And I think that reflects reality in a solid way, and why in these games, players wants to see that process.
I personally think a lot of people who go to play MMO's, do so, because they enjoy that aspect of progress, they enjoy gearing out and increasing the power of their toons, much like old school D&D players enjoy talking about their characters, the whole, gear, level, progress, thing is a huge aspect of MMO's, a selling point in fact.
So I don't think it was a matter of this is what you get, but I wager more a case of this is what they were looking for, a digital online game to fill that RPG desire, After all, the game is designed to attract a demographic, not impose on some other demographic.
Level Scaling is IMHO a rather cool feature, I liked it for GW2, as it was down scaling, so it gave a sense of progress, a sense that I was moving up, but being able to return to lower level content and still get loot, and exp, and do events and the like, make it so that the world got larger as I leveled, not smaller like some other games that fix level content.
But I am not sure how much I would like level scaling in other games, as I have only GW2 to pull from, and didn't play ESO long enough to get a feel for their system.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I gave this post an awesome because some early mmorpgs had some amazing AI that can't be ignored.
Such as Vanilla WoW. Who can forget the Merlocs and some human mobs where they would on low health run away and bring back friends. Or mages that would stand their ground and cast the hell out of you, but if you ran around a corner they would follow you, so you could pull them away from their friends.
I don't think you understand what AI means. Artificial intelligence.
What you just listed here is a simple "if (health<20%) run();" test in the code, or for the case of mages being pulled by line of sight, artificial stupidity rather than intelligence.
That's actually mechanics that people who talk about real AI for mobs despise and want to disappear.
I think AI is anything that responds to an action could be considered AI. Maybe in a rudimentary form but still AI.
Actually, a kind of "mix" between your murlock behavior and mage behavior, made smarter.
NO...... Your adding your version of a definition for AI.
By saying you would agree if a two step process happened, Murlocks and Mage.
Your creating your own threshold.
Answer to the full post and we'll talk again.
Until then, you are dismissed for being just another (very) artificial intelligence.
ahh now we have come full circle .. Jean Luc Picard picking on his favorite target .. Delete250 ..
I gave this post an awesome because some early mmorpgs had some amazing AI that can't be ignored.
Such as Vanilla WoW. Who can forget the Merlocs and some human mobs where they would on low health run away and bring back friends. Or mages that would stand their ground and cast the hell out of you, but if you ran around a corner they would follow you, so you could pull them away from their friends.
I don't think you understand what AI means. Artificial intelligence.
What you just listed here is a simple "if (health<20%) run();" test in the code, or for the case of mages being pulled by line of sight, artificial stupidity rather than intelligence.
That's actually mechanics that people who talk about real AI for mobs despise and want to disappear.
I think AI is anything that responds to an action could be considered AI. Maybe in a rudimentary form but still AI.
Anyone arguing that a "mage" running at you as soon as you are out of sight is "AI" can't be taken seriously.
That's a gimmick video game feature, yeah, and it works in all MMOs, but it's definitely not intelligence, even if artificial.
An artificial true intelligence would run for help, and come back with numbers to crush the passive invaders hiding behind that wall. Actually, a kind of "mix" between your murlock behavior and mage behavior, made smarter.
But then, dungeons would just no be doable for most parts. Any mob seeing his allies slaughtered would run for help like a human would do, and you would get wiped every pack of trash.
Actually, if there was any kind of "true" intelligence in MMOs, any allied mob within eye sight reach or ear reach would come to help the pack you are attacking, and you would die miserably over and over again.
Reading your post about MOB AI and Players getting wiped, I'm beginning to realize that MOBs aren't the only ones that need better AI.
I gave this post an awesome because some early mmorpgs had some amazing AI that can't be ignored.
Such as Vanilla WoW. Who can forget the Merlocs and some human mobs where they would on low health run away and bring back friends. Or mages that would stand their ground and cast the hell out of you, but if you ran around a corner they would follow you, so you could pull them away from their friends.
I don't think you understand what AI means. Artificial intelligence.
What you just listed here is a simple "if (health<20%) run();" test in the code, or for the case of mages being pulled by line of sight, artificial stupidity rather than intelligence.
That's actually mechanics that people who talk about real AI for mobs despise and want to disappear.
I think AI is anything that responds to an action could be considered AI. Maybe in a rudimentary form but still AI.
Anyone arguing that a "mage" running at you as soon as you are out of sight is "AI" can't be taken seriously.
That's a gimmick video game feature, yeah, and it works in all MMOs, but it's definitely not intelligence, even if artificial.
An artificial true intelligence would run for help, and come back with numbers to crush the passive invaders hiding behind that wall. Actually, a kind of "mix" between your murlock behavior and mage behavior, made smarter.
But then, dungeons would just no be doable for most parts. Any mob seeing his allies slaughtered would run for help like a human would do, and you would get wiped every pack of trash.
Actually, if there was any kind of "true" intelligence in MMOs, any allied mob within eye sight reach or ear reach would come to help the pack you are attacking, and you would die miserably over and over again.
Reading your post about MOB AI and Players getting wiped, I'm beginning to realize that MOBs aren't the only ones that need better AI.
Maybe instead of posting a one liner personal attack, you could elaborate about how what I said is wrong. At least that would be interesting.
I'm still waiting for the argument that will prove that "if health<20% run()" is superior AI.
Or if any ranged mob is behind a wall it will run right into melee range to be slaughtered is "better AI".
But I'm not holding my breath.
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
I gave this post an awesome because some early mmorpgs had some amazing AI that can't be ignored.
Such as Vanilla WoW. Who can forget the Merlocs and some human mobs where they would on low health run away and bring back friends. Or mages that would stand their ground and cast the hell out of you, but if you ran around a corner they would follow you, so you could pull them away from their friends.
I don't think you understand what AI means. Artificial intelligence.
What you just listed here is a simple "if (health<20%) run();" test in the code, or for the case of mages being pulled by line of sight, artificial stupidity rather than intelligence.
That's actually mechanics that people who talk about real AI for mobs despise and want to disappear.
I think AI is anything that responds to an action could be considered AI. Maybe in a rudimentary form but still AI.
Anyone arguing that a "mage" running at you as soon as you are out of sight is "AI" can't be taken seriously.
That's a gimmick video game feature, yeah, and it works in all MMOs, but it's definitely not intelligence, even if artificial.
An artificial true intelligence would run for help, and come back with numbers to crush the passive invaders hiding behind that wall. Actually, a kind of "mix" between your murlock behavior and mage behavior, made smarter.
But then, dungeons would just no be doable for most parts. Any mob seeing his allies slaughtered would run for help like a human would do, and you would get wiped every pack of trash.
Actually, if there was any kind of "true" intelligence in MMOs, any allied mob within eye sight reach or ear reach would come to help the pack you are attacking, and you would die miserably over and over again.
Reading your post about MOB AI and Players getting wiped, I'm beginning to realize that MOBs aren't the only ones that need better AI.
Maybe instead of posting a one liner personal attack, you could elaborate about how what I said is wrong. At least that would be interesting.
I'm still waiting for the argument that will prove that "if health<20% run()" is superior AI.
Or if any ranged mob is behind a wall it will run right into melee range to be slaughtered is "better AI".
But I'm not holding my breath.
I wasn't insulting you. I was commenting on the state of gaming.
That AI isn't good AI, and no one said it was as far as I can see. That's why people want better AI, after all. But that sort of code, if it's expanded, works.
In my largely ignored idea for an AI system, that MOB's AI will recognize, through repeated hits to its morale score from seeing it's fellow MOBs die, that it's a hopeless case and roll for a reaction that's heavily modified in favor of running away.
You wanted an explanation on my comment, and it's simple. For the Players faced with bad odds, what the hell's wrong with running away, or beating a fighting retreat? Live to fight again.
Players play just as dumb as the current AI, because they don't have to do more. The only strategy is "Read the cheat site and follow directions to beat said MOBs." With some few exceptions (talking about the content here). Players are perfectly capable of better game play, and I cannot understand why they aren't bored to tears with the current game play.
Comments
Just like there are guilds that push to be First in WoW, and some other games, but, those players are not what is keeping the game alive, they are a very, very, small demographic.
But they exist, and in some cases, are the right group to cater to, Case in point, DDO put in Reaper Mode, for people that wanted harder content, it does not offer better rewards than Elite. Players seem to love it. But then again, DDO also has Easy, Normal, Hard, and Elite mode as well, so that everyone is not required to do the hard stuff just to enjoy the game.
Just to give an example, GW2 bragged that they had around a 20% turnout when they launched raids, now GW2 has PvP, it has World vs World and SPvP (Arena Battles), so this is not a game that is lacking of players that are looking for a fight. So they had 20% turnout for raids, and...... then those numbers must have dropped off, because their sales tanked hard after that, and have not recovered.
So do players want challenge? Ideally, some, but, not enough to make them a priority.
MOBA's and BR's are a different monster, as they are PvP games, not MMO's, they focus on the skill of the player vs player, where MMO's are more about Character vs Character/Environment with player skill playing less a role in the combat, still a role, but less of one, and the players knowledge base and skill is more applied in how to make a meta build.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
But if there were, they probably said it would be "more challenging" in their marketing (because gamers really do want that) but failed to actually produce in a proper way.
At any rate, I highly doubt that a proper "challenge" caused any games to fall flat. It's more likely that the games simply sucked, or otherwise just were not appealing.
Lets be real here. When we call for more challenge, what we're really saying is that we're tired of MOBs that just stand around and die. More or less, anyways.
Why are you pigeonholing MMOs like that, in your last paragraph? Just because that's the way they make them?
It's exactly the point that we want something different FROM what they've been making.
Once upon a time....
I mean lets be honest, that is the way MMO's are made, and they are made that way to appeal and attract that demographic of players, players that don't want their toon to be stuck with using the same weapon at cap that they started with.
MMO's put a lot of effort into their character progress systems, as such, in those games, the focus is more on the players ability to design and build the ultimate character, not so much their personal ability to button mash.
And truth be told, IMHO, that is a good point of division between what makes a Good MMO and what makes a Good PvP game. The PvP game is all about the Players Skill, the MMO is about the Character Progression. I think that is a good way to look at them, and also a solid rason why they don't work well together.
Now, I wager there are some players that might want a zero progress MMO, (for the life of me I have no idea how they would work) but I would bet cold hard cash there are less of them then there are those that would play hard mode purely for the shits and giggles of it.
Are you saying games should have no features, and be free ?
I assumed everyone is looking for a new feature.
I also don't want this standardized MMORPG design that people can't break the spell of, I do not and never have considered that a good design for a "massively multiplayer" game about being in a "World" with huge numbers of other Players.
Where's this "zero progress" MMO come in here? I have never supported it. I've only seen a very few, like 3 maybe, posts saying they wanted that, over the many years I've been here.
That's different than Horizontal Progression, where you gain new abilities as opposed to bigger numbers as you play.
Once upon a time....
Yah, that's not going to happen.
I mean, to use an easy example of why this won't work, would be to use GW2, where once a player makes it to Cap (80th level) Almost all progression goes Horizontal, with the exception of some gear options, and then there is only a 10% variance IIRC, I could be wrong on that.
But, in any case, the idea of Horizontal Progression is an illusion, even in GW2, when you have capped players, a Optimized Meta Build, can output upwards to 10x the damage of an un-optimized build, even if all other stats and gear were the same.
So the idea of the progress being Horizontal equating to it being balanced or fair, is purely an illusion.
And with that in mind, a game with no sense of upward progression, does not provide much in the way of incentive to play it, at least not in the PvE sense.
PvP games, where the whole game is about the thrill of the fight, and the idea of winning and losing, based on your skill as a player, have their own thrill to them, and are designed to attract that demographic of players.
But IMHO, that simply will not work for PvE games, for the same reason that players don't want a real AI that will always custom set the encounter for them, and push them to the line, no matter what they do in the game, it will forever remain a struggle.
Even you expressed that you like the idea of being able to trivialize content by building your character up, making it stronger, and no joke, you are very much not alone on that.
As that is the very demographic that is attracted to MMO's, given how they are often made, MMO players want means of progression, where if they can't beat some content at this time, they can find some way to improve their character, make it stronger, and come back and beat that content.
Otherwise you are making a Gameworld where players become dead ended and stonewalled, which is, IMHO, not a strong selling point.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Me?...... I just had hot dogs for lunch
Such as Vanilla WoW. Who can forget the Merlocs and some human mobs where they would on low health run away and bring back friends. Or mages that would stand their ground and cast the hell out of you, but if you ran around a corner they would follow you, so you could pull them away from their friends. This was a trick in Scarlet Monetary, that if used would make the dungeon much easer. As a matter of fact, twice as easy !!
I would key on and appricate WoW's AI maybe more so than others because I often played a Rogue and would push my limits by fighting higher levels AND WATHCING HOW EVERYTHING would respond...... At times I would spend five minuets timing their paths in stealth mode.
Who can remember the escort quest in Westfall and even today, it's a quest that players look forward to...... kind of early days dynamic event.
Older games had some extremely good AI !
I don't think you understand what AI means. Artificial intelligence.
That's actually mechanics that people who talk about real AI for mobs despise and want to disappear.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
I do want progression. Just not the extremes we see in MMORPGs. This is what I've said repeatedly.
In a sense you are right about "horizontal progression" being a bit of an illusion.
You'd still progress and become more powerful. More powerful by being able to defeat more of the games content, if nothing else.
But I still prefer some vertical progression mixed into a basically horizontal system.
Because I do recognize that players want to feel that advancement. I do too.
You mentioned the demographic that plays MMORPGs, but you won't accept that they play them on a "this is what you get" basis.
Some want those extreme Power Gaps, but not all need or really want that. I'm absolutely sure, beyond doubt, that those Gaps can be reduced drastically, and Gamers would still like any game that's made well, with any losses easily made up by Gamers who are looking for the greater social interactions with other Players when their game world isn't divided into level lots. With the freedom to break out of those confined zones without the need for artificial fixes to that problem (Scaling).
Once upon a time....
A feat that is getting harder and harder for our forum members!
Just a joke - relax, I don't care.
Anyone arguing that a "mage" running at you as soon as you are out of sight is "AI" can't be taken seriously.
That's a gimmick video game feature, yeah, and it works in all MMOs, but it's definitely not intelligence, even if artificial.
An artificial true intelligence would run for help, and come back with numbers to crush the passive invaders hiding behind that wall. Actually, a kind of "mix" between your murlock behavior and mage behavior, made smarter.
But then, dungeons would just no be doable for most parts. Any mob seeing his allies slaughtered would run for help like a human would do, and you would get wiped every pack of trash.
Actually, if there was any kind of "true" intelligence in MMOs, any allied mob within eye sight reach or ear reach would come to help the pack you are attacking, and you would die miserably over and over again.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
By saying you would agree if a two step process happened, Murlocks and Mage.
Your creating your own threshold.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
I dunno, maybe some exist like that, where each level is a massive jump in power, but for me, as far back as EQ, a level 10 and a level 12 could still group and hunt together in the same zones, killing the same mobs, it wasn't like a level 11 was just exponentially more powerful than the level 10.
Sure, a level 10 and a level 20, could not group, but we are talking 10 levels of progress, and it seems reasonable they are not in the same playing field.
Again, not sure if you have a specific game in mind, but IMHO, it's a progression, not huge massive jumps, you build up to things, no one should be a young farm hand picking up a sword one day and suddenly be able to slay dragons, or even hold their own against a trained solder, who still has no chance in hell against a dragon either.
And I think that reflects reality in a solid way, and why in these games, players wants to see that process.
I personally think a lot of people who go to play MMO's, do so, because they enjoy that aspect of progress, they enjoy gearing out and increasing the power of their toons, much like old school D&D players enjoy talking about their characters, the whole, gear, level, progress, thing is a huge aspect of MMO's, a selling point in fact.
So I don't think it was a matter of this is what you get, but I wager more a case of this is what they were looking for, a digital online game to fill that RPG desire, After all, the game is designed to attract a demographic, not impose on some other demographic.
Level Scaling is IMHO a rather cool feature, I liked it for GW2, as it was down scaling, so it gave a sense of progress, a sense that I was moving up, but being able to return to lower level content and still get loot, and exp, and do events and the like, make it so that the world got larger as I leveled, not smaller like some other games that fix level content.
But I am not sure how much I would like level scaling in other games, as I have only GW2 to pull from, and didn't play ESO long enough to get a feel for their system.
Once upon a time....
Maybe instead of posting a one liner personal attack, you could elaborate about how what I said is wrong. At least that would be interesting.
Or if any ranged mob is behind a wall it will run right into melee range to be slaughtered is "better AI".
But I'm not holding my breath.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
That AI isn't good AI, and no one said it was as far as I can see.
That's why people want better AI, after all.
But that sort of code, if it's expanded, works.
In my largely ignored idea for an AI system, that MOB's AI will recognize, through repeated hits to its morale score from seeing it's fellow MOBs die, that it's a hopeless case and roll for a reaction that's heavily modified in favor of running away.
You wanted an explanation on my comment, and it's simple.
For the Players faced with bad odds, what the hell's wrong with running away, or beating a fighting retreat? Live to fight again.
Players play just as dumb as the current AI, because they don't have to do more. The only strategy is "Read the cheat site and follow directions to beat said MOBs."
With some few exceptions (talking about the content here).
Players are perfectly capable of better game play, and I cannot understand why they aren't bored to tears with the current game play.
You can breathe now, lol.
Just joking.
Once upon a time....