I gave this post an awesome because some early mmorpgs had some amazing AI that can't be ignored.
Such as Vanilla WoW. Who can forget the Merlocs and some human mobs where they would on low health run away and bring back friends. Or mages that would stand their ground and cast the hell out of you, but if you ran around a corner they would follow you, so you could pull them away from their friends.
I don't think you understand what AI means. Artificial intelligence.
What you just listed here is a simple "if (health<20%) run();" test in the code, or for the case of mages being pulled by line of sight, artificial stupidity rather than intelligence.
That's actually mechanics that people who talk about real AI for mobs despise and want to disappear.
I think AI is anything that responds to an action could be considered AI. Maybe in a rudimentary form but still AI.
Anyone arguing that a "mage" running at you as soon as you are out of sight is "AI" can't be taken seriously.
That's a gimmick video game feature, yeah, and it works in all MMOs, but it's definitely not intelligence, even if artificial.
An artificial true intelligence would run for help, and come back with numbers to crush the passive invaders hiding behind that wall. Actually, a kind of "mix" between your murlock behavior and mage behavior, made smarter.
But then, dungeons would just no be doable for most parts. Any mob seeing his allies slaughtered would run for help like a human would do, and you would get wiped every pack of trash.
Actually, if there was any kind of "true" intelligence in MMOs, any allied mob within eye sight reach or ear reach would come to help the pack you are attacking, and you would die miserably over and over again.
Reading your post about MOB AI and Players getting wiped, I'm beginning to realize that MOBs aren't the only ones that need better AI.
Maybe instead of posting a one liner personal attack, you could elaborate about how what I said is wrong. At least that would be interesting.
I'm still waiting for the argument that will prove that "if health<20% run()" is superior AI.
Or if any ranged mob is behind a wall it will run right into melee range to be slaughtered is "better AI".
But I'm not holding my breath.
I wasn't insulting you. I was commenting on the state of gaming.
That AI isn't good AI, and no one said it was as far as I can see. That's why people want better AI, after all. But that sort of code, if it's expanded, works.
In my largely ignored idea for an AI system, that MOB's AI will recognize, through repeated hits to its morale score from seeing it's fellow MOBs die, that it's a hopeless case and roll for a reaction that's heavily modified in favor of running away.
You wanted an explanation on my comment, and it's simple. For the Players faced with bad odds, what the hell's wrong with running away, or beating a fighting retreat? Live to fight again.
Players play just as dumb as the current AI, because they don't have to do more. The only strategy is "Read the cheat site and follow directions to beat said MOBs." With some few exceptions (talking about the content here). Players are perfectly capable of better game play, and I cannot understand why they aren't bored to tears with the current game play.
You can breathe now, lol. Just joking.
I don't disagree, but the problem with your theory here:
"For the Players faced with bad odds, what the hell's wrong with running
away, or beating a fighting retreat? Live to fight again. "
In a world where mobs respawn for the next player, that just doesn't work. And in dungeons, that doesn't work either.
The reasons were already mentioned in my previous post. What would YOU do as a player if you were in a stronghold and were attacked ? Call for every help available.
If mobs do the same in environments where they are able to respawn infinitely or where they have a whole dungeon allying with their faction, the player just can't win.
Mobs have to be a certain level of "DUMB" for games to be fun for players. I'm not saying the actual level can't be improved, but make them too smart, an no one will play your games.
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
I gave this post an awesome because some early mmorpgs had some amazing AI that can't be ignored.
Such as Vanilla WoW. Who can forget the Merlocs and some human mobs where they would on low health run away and bring back friends. Or mages that would stand their ground and cast the hell out of you, but if you ran around a corner they would follow you, so you could pull them away from their friends.
I don't think you understand what AI means. Artificial intelligence.
What you just listed here is a simple "if (health<20%) run();" test in the code, or for the case of mages being pulled by line of sight, artificial stupidity rather than intelligence.
That's actually mechanics that people who talk about real AI for mobs despise and want to disappear.
I think AI is anything that responds to an action could be considered AI. Maybe in a rudimentary form but still AI.
Anyone arguing that a "mage" running at you as soon as you are out of sight is "AI" can't be taken seriously.
That's a gimmick video game feature, yeah, and it works in all MMOs, but it's definitely not intelligence, even if artificial.
An artificial true intelligence would run for help, and come back with numbers to crush the passive invaders hiding behind that wall. Actually, a kind of "mix" between your murlock behavior and mage behavior, made smarter.
But then, dungeons would just no be doable for most parts. Any mob seeing his allies slaughtered would run for help like a human would do, and you would get wiped every pack of trash.
Actually, if there was any kind of "true" intelligence in MMOs, any allied mob within eye sight reach or ear reach would come to help the pack you are attacking, and you would die miserably over and over again.
Reading your post about MOB AI and Players getting wiped, I'm beginning to realize that MOBs aren't the only ones that need better AI.
Maybe instead of posting a one liner personal attack, you could elaborate about how what I said is wrong. At least that would be interesting.
I'm still waiting for the argument that will prove that "if health<20% run()" is superior AI.
Or if any ranged mob is behind a wall it will run right into melee range to be slaughtered is "better AI".
But I'm not holding my breath.
I wasn't insulting you. I was commenting on the state of gaming.
That AI isn't good AI, and no one said it was as far as I can see. That's why people want better AI, after all. But that sort of code, if it's expanded, works.
In my largely ignored idea for an AI system, that MOB's AI will recognize, through repeated hits to its morale score from seeing it's fellow MOBs die, that it's a hopeless case and roll for a reaction that's heavily modified in favor of running away.
You wanted an explanation on my comment, and it's simple. For the Players faced with bad odds, what the hell's wrong with running away, or beating a fighting retreat? Live to fight again.
Players play just as dumb as the current AI, because they don't have to do more. The only strategy is "Read the cheat site and follow directions to beat said MOBs." With some few exceptions (talking about the content here). Players are perfectly capable of better game play, and I cannot understand why they aren't bored to tears with the current game play.
You can breathe now, lol. Just joking.
I don't disagree, but the problem with your theory here:
"For the Players faced with bad odds, what the hell's wrong with running
away, or beating a fighting retreat? Live to fight again. "
In a world where mobs respawn for the next player, that just doesn't work. And in dungeons, that doesn't work either.
The reasons were already mentioned in my previous post. What would YOU do as a player if you were in a stronghold and were attacked ? Call for every help available.
If mobs do the same in environments where they are able to respawn infinitely or where they have a whole dungeon allying with their faction, the player just can't win.
Mobs have to be a certain level of "DUMB" for games to be fun for players. I'm not saying the actual level can't be improved, but make them too smart, an no one will play your games.
Well, a good game design isn't going to just pop spawns all the time, they're going to give a little breather in between. But it's hard to PLACE a spawn, too. Myself, I think that Dungeons should have low level natural inhabitants that spawn, don't use a deeper AI (low animal INT), to provide for constant action. I think that better AI can give us Wandering MOBs. Those that are communal and intelligent would be seeking a home, and move into such a Dungeon if it's not already occupied by another intelligent MOB type.
In other words, the Dungeons can be cleared of these more intelligent MOBs. (Not easily, though, because of defenses and better AI.) But my thinking is a lot more detailed that that simple statement. I don't have time to get into that right now.
I gave this post an awesome because some early mmorpgs had some amazing AI that can't be ignored.
Such as Vanilla WoW. Who can forget the Merlocs and some human mobs where they would on low health run away and bring back friends. Or mages that would stand their ground and cast the hell out of you, but if you ran around a corner they would follow you, so you could pull them away from their friends.
I don't think you understand what AI means. Artificial intelligence.
What you just listed here is a simple "if (health<20%) run();" test in the code, or for the case of mages being pulled by line of sight, artificial stupidity rather than intelligence.
That's actually mechanics that people who talk about real AI for mobs despise and want to disappear.
I think AI is anything that responds to an action could be considered AI. Maybe in a rudimentary form but still AI.
Anyone arguing that a "mage" running at you as soon as you are out of sight is "AI" can't be taken seriously.
That's a gimmick video game feature, yeah, and it works in all MMOs, but it's definitely not intelligence, even if artificial.
An artificial true intelligence would run for help, and come back with numbers to crush the passive invaders hiding behind that wall. Actually, a kind of "mix" between your murlock behavior and mage behavior, made smarter.
But then, dungeons would just no be doable for most parts. Any mob seeing his allies slaughtered would run for help like a human would do, and you would get wiped every pack of trash.
Actually, if there was any kind of "true" intelligence in MMOs, any allied mob within eye sight reach or ear reach would come to help the pack you are attacking, and you would die miserably over and over again.
Reading your post about MOB AI and Players getting wiped, I'm beginning to realize that MOBs aren't the only ones that need better AI.
Maybe instead of posting a one liner personal attack, you could elaborate about how what I said is wrong. At least that would be interesting.
I'm still waiting for the argument that will prove that "if health<20% run()" is superior AI.
Or if any ranged mob is behind a wall it will run right into melee range to be slaughtered is "better AI".
But I'm not holding my breath.
I wasn't insulting you. I was commenting on the state of gaming.
That AI isn't good AI, and no one said it was as far as I can see. That's why people want better AI, after all. But that sort of code, if it's expanded, works.
In my largely ignored idea for an AI system, that MOB's AI will recognize, through repeated hits to its morale score from seeing it's fellow MOBs die, that it's a hopeless case and roll for a reaction that's heavily modified in favor of running away.
You wanted an explanation on my comment, and it's simple. For the Players faced with bad odds, what the hell's wrong with running away, or beating a fighting retreat? Live to fight again.
Players play just as dumb as the current AI, because they don't have to do more. The only strategy is "Read the cheat site and follow directions to beat said MOBs." With some few exceptions (talking about the content here). Players are perfectly capable of better game play, and I cannot understand why they aren't bored to tears with the current game play.
You can breathe now, lol. Just joking.
I don't disagree, but the problem with your theory here:
"For the Players faced with bad odds, what the hell's wrong with running
away, or beating a fighting retreat? Live to fight again. "
In a world where mobs respawn for the next player, that just doesn't work. And in dungeons, that doesn't work either.
The reasons were already mentioned in my previous post. What would YOU do as a player if you were in a stronghold and were attacked ? Call for every help available.
If mobs do the same in environments where they are able to respawn infinitely or where they have a whole dungeon allying with their faction, the player just can't win.
Mobs have to be a certain level of "DUMB" for games to be fun for players. I'm not saying the actual level can't be improved, but make them too smart, an no one will play your games.
Well, a good game design isn't going to just pop spawns all the time, they're going to give a little breather in between. But it's hard to PLACE a spawn, too. Myself, I think that Dungeons should have low level natural inhabitants that spawn, don't use a deeper AI (low animal INT), to provide for constant action. I think that better AI can give us Wandering MOBs. Those that are communal and intelligent would be seeking a home, and move into such a Dungeon if it's not already occupied by another intelligent MOB type.
In other words, the Dungeons can be cleared of these more intelligent MOBs. (Not easily, though, because of defenses and better AI.) But my thinking is a lot more detailed that that simple statement. I don't have time to get into that right now.
In your ideal world, that would work, but that does NOT work in a MMORPG with millions of players. Even in instanced content.
And you still didn't answer to the problems I mentionned in my previous post.
For instance, how do you explain that mobs in the next dungeon room just won't move even their little finger to help the mobs of the previous room when they are attacked by a bunch of very loud adventurers bashing their faces with swords, two handed axes and fireballs ? How do you explain that even if the developers separate the dungeon rooms enough for sound alerting the next room not being an issue, if you want "REAL" intelligence, mobs won't start to run towards the next room to get help once they notice they are about to lose... like players would do in PvP.
It would be VERY hard to design content that is both challenging for a specific level of player level, and not totally unbeatable because the mobs are just as smart as a player but have way more resources since they are computers and not humans.
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
I gave this post an awesome because some early mmorpgs had some amazing AI that can't be ignored.
Such as Vanilla WoW. Who can forget the Merlocs and some human mobs where they would on low health run away and bring back friends. Or mages that would stand their ground and cast the hell out of you, but if you ran around a corner they would follow you, so you could pull them away from their friends.
I don't think you understand what AI means. Artificial intelligence.
What you just listed here is a simple "if (health<20%) run();" test in the code, or for the case of mages being pulled by line of sight, artificial stupidity rather than intelligence.
That's actually mechanics that people who talk about real AI for mobs despise and want to disappear.
I think AI is anything that responds to an action could be considered AI. Maybe in a rudimentary form but still AI.
Anyone arguing that a "mage" running at you as soon as you are out of sight is "AI" can't be taken seriously.
That's a gimmick video game feature, yeah, and it works in all MMOs, but it's definitely not intelligence, even if artificial.
An artificial true intelligence would run for help, and come back with numbers to crush the passive invaders hiding behind that wall. Actually, a kind of "mix" between your murlock behavior and mage behavior, made smarter.
But then, dungeons would just no be doable for most parts. Any mob seeing his allies slaughtered would run for help like a human would do, and you would get wiped every pack of trash.
Actually, if there was any kind of "true" intelligence in MMOs, any allied mob within eye sight reach or ear reach would come to help the pack you are attacking, and you would die miserably over and over again.
Well not sure what the problem with a Mage advancing on you, when you have left LOS. This is after all what players will do, if the MOB ran out of LOS, the player would give chase, regardless if they were a melee or caster, they still need LOS to hit the target.
Keep in mind, that the MOBS are stuck there in that dungeon, while the player is not. So an AI still would need to function with what it has, it has no means to truly escape, so much like any player in a PvP match, when you know you can't run, the only other option is turn and fight. Just like when a small group, or solo player gets hit by a zerg, if they don't think they are run away, they stand and fight, accepting death as the only outcome.
Or when a player gets hit a vastly superior opponent in PvP, if they know they can't run, they might as well die fighting.
A MOB AI would function no better.
Also, keep in mind, if a bunch of players saw their fellow players getting brutally killed by another player other force, IE: Your small team just got steamrolled by Zerg, or someone just dropped half your group in a PvP match without even getting hurt, unless you were far stronger or better players then the ones being killed, you would run for it, like, run clean out of the dungeon/zone saying "Fuck that"
But MOB's don't have that choice, they are stuck there in that dungeon.
So mobs pack attacking a Player or group, would just be a suicide run, which, lets be honest, is not smart gameplay, if the goal was realistic game play, rez-rushing suicided attacks are not the thing to do.
Also keep in mind, if you play a PvP game, just because you call for help, does not in any way mean you won't die alone, where you stand, because everyone else was setting up an ambush and didn't want to expose themselves, or maybe they knew that the other team was just far better than they were, and figured "Fuck That"
I mean really, if you wanted true AI, the system would be like
Think of how stupid boring that would be, that would be like playing a PvP game where if the other team knew you would win, everyone recalled/quit and just handed you the objective and victory.
Reminds me of the Ork players that would quit hot join games in EC, if the matchup was against Eldar. because Eldar were far OP against Ork it was not even funny, Elder were OP AF anyway, and since the game was dead they were not going to fix that, but, players took matters into their own hands, and realized if they no chance to win, they would quit, and would rather wait for a different match up then face Eldar, eventually everyone stopped playing Eldar, because they could not get matches.
Is that really what anyone would want from a PvE game with an AI, where they would just not fight you unless they could win.. talk about a shit game from the get go. No one wants an Opponent that would play like that, where they either win or quit.
So, yah.. anyway.. AI is a not really the desire, the desire is for fun content that be beat.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Same amount of bullshit as usual... no thinking behind it.
The problem, then, is maybe NOT the AI ? But the way content is designed, totally unrealistically ?
A player shoots some mob on the top of an enemy fortress. What would happen in "real" world, with "real" intelligence ? The whole base would be alerted, the guy would most likely end in prison or dead.
In a MMO ? Only a limited amount of mobs will agro, with the SAME FORMULA THAT STARTED IN GAMES LIKE UO 25 YEARS AGO.
Problem is... make this more "intelligent", more "realistic", and it would not be fun, it wouldn't work.
Selective pulling is part of the CRPG genre for so long it's part of the culture. Reverting that is going to be very challenging... and even more challenging if you still want to make it fun and "playable".
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
Same amount of bullshit as usual... no thinking behind it.
The problem, then, is maybe NOT the AI ? But the way content is designed, totally unrealistically ?
A player shoots some mob on the top of an enemy fortress. What would happen in "real" world, with "real" intelligence ? The whole base would be alerted, the guy would most likely end in prison or dead.
In a MMO ? Only a limited amount of mobs will agro, with the SAME FORMULA THAT STARTED IN GAMES LIKE UO 25 YEARS AGO.
Problem is... make this more "intelligent", more "realistic", and it would not be fun, it wouldn't work.
Selective pulling is part of the CRPG genre for so long it's part of the culture. Reverting that is going to be very challenging... and even more challenging if you still want to make it fun and "playable".
AI does not have to be realistic, two different subjects....Doesn't have to be boring, no one needs to go to jail.
Same amount of bullshit as usual... no thinking behind it.
The problem, then, is maybe NOT the AI ? But the way content is designed, totally unrealistically ?
A player shoots some mob on the top of an enemy fortress. What would happen in "real" world, with "real" intelligence ? The whole base would be alerted, the guy would most likely end in prison or dead.
In a MMO ? Only a limited amount of mobs will agro, with the SAME FORMULA THAT STARTED IN GAMES LIKE UO 25 YEARS AGO.
Problem is... make this more "intelligent", more "realistic", and it would not be fun, it wouldn't work.
Selective pulling is part of the CRPG genre for so long it's part of the culture. Reverting that is going to be very challenging... and even more challenging if you still want to make it fun and "playable".
Funny, because in EQ, the mob on top, would run down the fortress, seeking to get to the player to attack them, and drag every single mob it ran past with it.. cause a huge fucking train that would wipe out half the players in the zone, maybe more... Mistmore was just special like that.
But was that fun? Well.. the long and short answer is: No.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
In your ideal world, that would work, but that does NOT work in a MMORPG with millions of players. Even in instanced content.
And you still didn't answer to the problems I mentionned in my previous post.
For instance, how do you explain that mobs in the next dungeon room just won't move even their little finger to help the mobs of the previous room when they are attacked by a bunch of very loud adventurers bashing their faces with swords, two handed axes and fireballs ? How do you explain that even if the developers separate the dungeon rooms enough for sound alerting the next room not being an issue, if you want "REAL" intelligence, mobs won't start to run towards the next room to get help once they notice they are about to lose... like players would do in PvP.
It would be VERY hard to design content that is both challenging for a specific level of player level, and not totally unbeatable because the mobs are just as smart as a player but have way more resources since they are computers and not humans.
I thought I replied to this and don't know what happened to it. Maybe I deleted it by accident.
Yes, in my AI system, with "Dungeon AI" that's gives MOBs in a Dungeon more options, a MOB could go get help. Especially if that MOB "breaks" it's "save roll" because it lost a lot of morale from seeing its comrades die.
But there's more. The Dungeon AI also allows MOBs that move in to build things like defensive barriers and work stations. Another of those things might be a large horn hanging on a wall that they can blow for alert the next room of MOBs, and they would then use AI to decide if they will come to help, set up a defensive strategy, or even alert the entire Dungeon of their allies.
If the MOBs are unbeatable because of this, the Players will need a new strategy, and maybe some extra help. They may have to give up on this day and try again another day. In the meantime, they can go to other Dungeons that aren't controlled by a large MOB with intelligent reactions of this sort of social military behavior.
Same amount of bullshit as usual... no thinking behind it.
The problem, then, is maybe NOT the AI ? But the way content is designed, totally unrealistically ?
A player shoots some mob on the top of an enemy fortress. What would happen in "real" world, with "real" intelligence ? The whole base would be alerted, the guy would most likely end in prison or dead.
In a MMO ? Only a limited amount of mobs will agro, with the SAME FORMULA THAT STARTED IN GAMES LIKE UO 25 YEARS AGO.
Problem is... make this more "intelligent", more "realistic", and it would not be fun, it wouldn't work.
Selective pulling is part of the CRPG genre for so long it's part of the culture. Reverting that is going to be very challenging... and even more challenging if you still want to make it fun and "playable".
Funny, because in EQ, the mob on top, would run down the fortress, seeking to get to the player to attack them, and drag every single mob it ran past with it.. cause a huge fucking train that would wipe out half the players in the zone, maybe more... Mistmore was just special like that.
But was that fun? Well.. the long and short answer is: No.
Sounds like fun to me. Besides, since when did players stop running from unbeatable odds? Are they so attuned to "guaranteed win" that they just stand there and die like an NPC MOB?
One of the most memorable things I saw in UO was my first time to a place called "The Orc Fort". In Beta, it had been taken over by powerful spell casting Liches. It was on a small peninsula, and a mass of Players would group up just off the neck of the peninsula, and send in one guy to draw out a few Liches. But sometimes they accidentally grabbed all of them, and died while training all those Liches to the other Players. Then it was a massive assault by those powerful spell casters on the players gathered there. Lag set in, making it all seem like slow motion. With Players running away and Liches following, casting spells, Characters dropping right and left. It was a sight to see, I'll tell ya.
And in UO, everything you carried dropped on your corpse. And the MOBs LOOTED YOU! Haha, Gamers have become so cottled, all for the guaranteed win.
Same amount of bullshit as usual... no thinking behind it.
The problem, then, is maybe NOT the AI ? But the way content is designed, totally unrealistically ?
A player shoots some mob on the top of an enemy fortress. What would happen in "real" world, with "real" intelligence ? The whole base would be alerted, the guy would most likely end in prison or dead.
In a MMO ? Only a limited amount of mobs will agro, with the SAME FORMULA THAT STARTED IN GAMES LIKE UO 25 YEARS AGO.
Problem is... make this more "intelligent", more "realistic", and it would not be fun, it wouldn't work.
Selective pulling is part of the CRPG genre for so long it's part of the culture. Reverting that is going to be very challenging... and even more challenging if you still want to make it fun and "playable".
Funny, because in EQ, the mob on top, would run down the fortress, seeking to get to the player to attack them, and drag every single mob it ran past with it.. cause a huge fucking train that would wipe out half the players in the zone, maybe more... Mistmore was just special like that.
But was that fun? Well.. the long and short answer is: No.
Sounds like fun to me. Besides, since when did players stop running from unbeatable odds? Are they so attuned to "guaranteed win" that they just stand there and die like an NPC MOB?
One of the most memorable things I saw in UO was my first time to a place called "The Orc Fort". In Beta, it had been taken over by powerful spell casting Liches. It was on a small peninsula, and a mass of Players would group up just off the neck of the peninsula, and send in one guy to draw out a few Liches. But sometimes they accidentally grabbed all of them, and died while training all those Liches to the other Players. Then it was a massive assault by those powerful spell casters on the players gathered there. Lag set in, making it all seem like slow motion. With Players running away and Liches following, casting spells, Characters dropping right and left. It was a sight to see, I'll tell ya.
And in UO, everything you carried dropped on your corpse. And the MOBs LOOTED YOU! Haha, Gamers have become so cottled, all for the guaranteed win.
In GW2, we would Zerg roll, (very common tactic) and sometimes some poor bastard would just happen to be in our path, and if they didn't have the means to outrun us, or escape, they were steamrolled over.
Sometimes they would start to run, and some classes were really good at escaping, like Theif, but more often than not, when they realized they were not going to escape, they would just turn and fight. Might as well go down swinging.
As far as having a bunch of NPC Mobs kill you, like in Mistmore. Well, that was the result of someone else who pulled the Train, and there was no gearing up for that.
See a Train was the result of some dumbass pulling more than they could handle, running for the zone, and killing everyone else around them in the stupidity. This was not some thing where everyone was lined up to handle that situation like your zombie island thing, that would be a raid in EQ.
Nahh in Mist More People would pull sit from deep in the Castle, right to the zone, as they ran for it. This was a dumbass move pulling a train, and if they were able, they would run for the Zone, sometimes shouting TRAIN, sometimes, not, and everyone around them would get blindsided by the mess, and often die for it. Keep in mind, you if didn't have a means to augment your run speed, you were just flat out dead.
Same with Black Burrow, where you were still in the starting zones, and would go in, to a pack of mobs standing at the zone entrance, because someone ran for the zone, which would give anyone that zoned in a solid beatdown, right there.
Honestly, dealing with the stupid of other players was not fun either.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I gave this post an awesome because some early mmorpgs had some amazing AI that can't be ignored.
Such as Vanilla WoW. Who can forget the Merlocs and some human mobs where they would on low health run away and bring back friends. Or mages that would stand their ground and cast the hell out of you, but if you ran around a corner they would follow you, so you could pull them away from their friends.
I don't think you understand what AI means. Artificial intelligence.
What you just listed here is a simple "if (health<20%) run();" test in the code, or for the case of mages being pulled by line of sight, artificial stupidity rather than intelligence.
That's actually mechanics that people who talk about real AI for mobs despise and want to disappear.
I think AI is anything that responds to an action could be considered AI. Maybe in a rudimentary form but still AI.
Anyone arguing that a "mage" running at you as soon as you are out of sight is "AI" can't be taken seriously.
That's a gimmick video game feature, yeah, and it works in all MMOs, but it's definitely not intelligence, even if artificial.
An artificial true intelligence would run for help, and come back with numbers to crush the passive invaders hiding behind that wall. Actually, a kind of "mix" between your murlock behavior and mage behavior, made smarter.
But then, dungeons would just no be doable for most parts. Any mob seeing his allies slaughtered would run for help like a human would do, and you would get wiped every pack of trash.
Actually, if there was any kind of "true" intelligence in MMOs, any allied mob within eye sight reach or ear reach would come to help the pack you are attacking, and you would die miserably over and over again.
Reading your post about MOB AI and Players getting wiped, I'm beginning to realize that MOBs aren't the only ones that need better AI.
Maybe instead of posting a one liner personal attack, you could elaborate about how what I said is wrong. At least that would be interesting.
I'm still waiting for the argument that will prove that "if health<20% run()" is superior AI.
Or if any ranged mob is behind a wall it will run right into melee range to be slaughtered is "better AI".
But I'm not holding my breath.
I wasn't insulting you. I was commenting on the state of gaming.
That AI isn't good AI, and no one said it was as far as I can see. That's why people want better AI, after all. But that sort of code, if it's expanded, works.
In my largely ignored idea for an AI system, that MOB's AI will recognize, through repeated hits to its morale score from seeing it's fellow MOBs die, that it's a hopeless case and roll for a reaction that's heavily modified in favor of running away.
You wanted an explanation on my comment, and it's simple. For the Players faced with bad odds, what the hell's wrong with running away, or beating a fighting retreat? Live to fight again.
Players play just as dumb as the current AI, because they don't have to do more. The only strategy is "Read the cheat site and follow directions to beat said MOBs." With some few exceptions (talking about the content here). Players are perfectly capable of better game play, and I cannot understand why they aren't bored to tears with the current game play.
You can breathe now, lol. Just joking.
I don't disagree, but the problem with your theory here:
"For the Players faced with bad odds, what the hell's wrong with running
away, or beating a fighting retreat? Live to fight again. "
In a world where mobs respawn for the next player, that just doesn't work. And in dungeons, that doesn't work either.
The reasons were already mentioned in my previous post. What would YOU do as a player if you were in a stronghold and were attacked ? Call for every help available.
If mobs do the same in environments where they are able to respawn infinitely or where they have a whole dungeon allying with their faction, the player just can't win.
Mobs have to be a certain level of "DUMB" for games to be fun for players. I'm not saying the actual level can't be improved, but make them too smart, an no one will play your games.
Well, a good game design isn't going to just pop spawns all the time, they're going to give a little breather in between. But it's hard to PLACE a spawn, too. Myself, I think that Dungeons should have low level natural inhabitants that spawn, don't use a deeper AI (low animal INT), to provide for constant action. I think that better AI can give us Wandering MOBs. Those that are communal and intelligent would be seeking a home, and move into such a Dungeon if it's not already occupied by another intelligent MOB type.
In other words, the Dungeons can be cleared of these more intelligent MOBs. (Not easily, though, because of defenses and better AI.) But my thinking is a lot more detailed that that simple statement. I don't have time to get into that right now.
In your ideal world, that would work, but that does NOT work in a MMORPG with millions of players. Even in instanced content.
And you still didn't answer to the problems I mentionned in my previous post.
For instance, how do you explain that mobs in the next dungeon room just won't move even their little finger to help the mobs of the previous room when they are attacked by a bunch of very loud adventurers bashing their faces with swords, two handed axes and fireballs ? How do you explain that even if the developers separate the dungeon rooms enough for sound alerting the next room not being an issue, if you want "REAL" intelligence, mobs won't start to run towards the next room to get help once they notice they are about to lose... like players would do in PvP.
It would be VERY hard to design content that is both challenging for a specific level of player level, and not totally unbeatable because the mobs are just as smart as a player but have way more resources since they are computers and not humans.
Maybe a kind of different dungeon design is the answer.
But I also agree that overpopulation is a difficult issue. The only place it works for me is in cities.
These dungeons are supposed to be out of the way and secluded. Nobody said there was going to be tour groups here.
Reading your post about MOB AI and Players getting wiped, I'm beginning to realize that MOBs aren't the only ones that need better AI.
Maybe instead of posting a one liner personal attack, you could elaborate about how what I said is wrong. At least that would be interesting.
I'm still waiting for the argument that will prove that "if health<20% run()" is superior AI.
Or if any ranged mob is behind a wall it will run right into melee range to be slaughtered is "better AI".
But I'm not holding my breath.
I wasn't insulting you. I was commenting on the state of gaming.
That AI isn't good AI, and no one said it was as far as I can see. That's why people want better AI, after all. But that sort of code, if it's expanded, works.
In my largely ignored idea for an AI system, that MOB's AI will recognize, through repeated hits to its morale score from seeing it's fellow MOBs die, that it's a hopeless case and roll for a reaction that's heavily modified in favor of running away.
You wanted an explanation on my comment, and it's simple. For the Players faced with bad odds, what the hell's wrong with running away, or beating a fighting retreat? Live to fight again.
Players play just as dumb as the current AI, because they don't have to do more. The only strategy is "Read the cheat site and follow directions to beat said MOBs." With some few exceptions (talking about the content here). Players are perfectly capable of better game play, and I cannot understand why they aren't bored to tears with the current game play.
You can breathe now, lol. Just joking.
I don't disagree, but the problem with your theory here:
"For the Players faced with bad odds, what the hell's wrong with running
away, or beating a fighting retreat? Live to fight again. "
In a world where mobs respawn for the next player, that just doesn't work. And in dungeons, that doesn't work either.
The reasons were already mentioned in my previous post. What would YOU do as a player if you were in a stronghold and were attacked ? Call for every help available.
If mobs do the same in environments where they are able to respawn infinitely or where they have a whole dungeon allying with their faction, the player just can't win.
Mobs have to be a certain level of "DUMB" for games to be fun for players. I'm not saying the actual level can't be improved, but make them too smart, an no one will play your games.
Well, a good game design isn't going to just pop spawns all the time, they're going to give a little breather in between. But it's hard to PLACE a spawn, too. Myself, I think that Dungeons should have low level natural inhabitants that spawn, don't use a deeper AI (low animal INT), to provide for constant action. I think that better AI can give us Wandering MOBs. Those that are communal and intelligent would be seeking a home, and move into such a Dungeon if it's not already occupied by another intelligent MOB type.
In other words, the Dungeons can be cleared of these more intelligent MOBs. (Not easily, though, because of defenses and better AI.) But my thinking is a lot more detailed that that simple statement. I don't have time to get into that right now.
In your ideal world, that would work, but that does NOT work in a MMORPG with millions of players. Even in instanced content.
And you still didn't answer to the problems I mentionned in my previous post.
For instance, how do you explain that mobs in the next dungeon room just won't move even their little finger to help the mobs of the previous room when they are attacked by a bunch of very loud adventurers bashing their faces with swords, two handed axes and fireballs ? How do you explain that even if the developers separate the dungeon rooms enough for sound alerting the next room not being an issue, if you want "REAL" intelligence, mobs won't start to run towards the next room to get help once they notice they are about to lose... like players would do in PvP.
It would be VERY hard to design content that is both challenging for a specific level of player level, and not totally unbeatable because the mobs are just as smart as a player but have way more resources since they are computers and not humans.
Maybe a kind of different dungeon design is the answer.
But I also agree that overpopulation is a difficult issue. The only place it works for me is in cities.
These dungeons are supposed to be out of the way and secluded. Nobody said there was going to be tour groups here.
I agree. I think what there needs to be is a huge world with plenty of "wilds" that's harder to get to than the more localized Dungeons and typical stuff bordering the cities and routes between.
I always liked UO's "Recall Spell", which used Runestones that you can easily use to teleport to wherever that runestone is marked for. That allowed for ease of movement so Players could move about to get to the heart of their game play. But if Players are limited to, say, a dozen of these marked runestones, then they are not going to be able to go all over the game world on a whim. That might help keep out of the way Dungeons from being constantly overrun.
Reading your post about MOB AI and Players getting wiped, I'm beginning to realize that MOBs aren't the only ones that need better AI.
Maybe instead of posting a one liner personal attack, you could elaborate about how what I said is wrong. At least that would be interesting.
I'm still waiting for the argument that will prove that "if health<20% run()" is superior AI.
Or if any ranged mob is behind a wall it will run right into melee range to be slaughtered is "better AI".
But I'm not holding my breath.
I wasn't insulting you. I was commenting on the state of gaming.
That AI isn't good AI, and no one said it was as far as I can see. That's why people want better AI, after all. But that sort of code, if it's expanded, works.
In my largely ignored idea for an AI system, that MOB's AI will recognize, through repeated hits to its morale score from seeing it's fellow MOBs die, that it's a hopeless case and roll for a reaction that's heavily modified in favor of running away.
You wanted an explanation on my comment, and it's simple. For the Players faced with bad odds, what the hell's wrong with running away, or beating a fighting retreat? Live to fight again.
Players play just as dumb as the current AI, because they don't have to do more. The only strategy is "Read the cheat site and follow directions to beat said MOBs." With some few exceptions (talking about the content here). Players are perfectly capable of better game play, and I cannot understand why they aren't bored to tears with the current game play.
You can breathe now, lol. Just joking.
I don't disagree, but the problem with your theory here:
"For the Players faced with bad odds, what the hell's wrong with running
away, or beating a fighting retreat? Live to fight again. "
In a world where mobs respawn for the next player, that just doesn't work. And in dungeons, that doesn't work either.
The reasons were already mentioned in my previous post. What would YOU do as a player if you were in a stronghold and were attacked ? Call for every help available.
If mobs do the same in environments where they are able to respawn infinitely or where they have a whole dungeon allying with their faction, the player just can't win.
Mobs have to be a certain level of "DUMB" for games to be fun for players. I'm not saying the actual level can't be improved, but make them too smart, an no one will play your games.
Well, a good game design isn't going to just pop spawns all the time, they're going to give a little breather in between. But it's hard to PLACE a spawn, too. Myself, I think that Dungeons should have low level natural inhabitants that spawn, don't use a deeper AI (low animal INT), to provide for constant action. I think that better AI can give us Wandering MOBs. Those that are communal and intelligent would be seeking a home, and move into such a Dungeon if it's not already occupied by another intelligent MOB type.
In other words, the Dungeons can be cleared of these more intelligent MOBs. (Not easily, though, because of defenses and better AI.) But my thinking is a lot more detailed that that simple statement. I don't have time to get into that right now.
In your ideal world, that would work, but that does NOT work in a MMORPG with millions of players. Even in instanced content.
And you still didn't answer to the problems I mentionned in my previous post.
For instance, how do you explain that mobs in the next dungeon room just won't move even their little finger to help the mobs of the previous room when they are attacked by a bunch of very loud adventurers bashing their faces with swords, two handed axes and fireballs ? How do you explain that even if the developers separate the dungeon rooms enough for sound alerting the next room not being an issue, if you want "REAL" intelligence, mobs won't start to run towards the next room to get help once they notice they are about to lose... like players would do in PvP.
It would be VERY hard to design content that is both challenging for a specific level of player level, and not totally unbeatable because the mobs are just as smart as a player but have way more resources since they are computers and not humans.
Maybe a kind of different dungeon design is the answer.
But I also agree that overpopulation is a difficult issue. The only place it works for me is in cities.
These dungeons are supposed to be out of the way and secluded. Nobody said there was going to be tour groups here.
I agree. I think what there needs to be is a huge world with plenty of "wilds" that's harder to get to than the more localized Dungeons and typical stuff bordering the cities and routes between.
I always liked UO's "Recall Spell", which used Runestones that you can easily use to teleport to wherever that runestone is marked for. That allowed for ease of movement so Players could move about to get to the heart of their game play. But if Players are limited to, say, a dozen of these marked runestones, then they are not going to be able to go all over the game world on a whim. That might help keep out of the way Dungeons from being constantly overrun.
There may be other ways.
This is where AI can help us in so many ways.
AI that can take a huge massive world and populate it with interesting encounters. Have an array of wildlife, each with their own interesting and entertaining behaviour.
I love what UO tried to do, now I wish someone would take it to the next level.
Reading your post about MOB AI and Players getting wiped, I'm beginning to realize that MOBs aren't the only ones that need better AI.
Maybe instead of posting a one liner personal attack, you could elaborate about how what I said is wrong. At least that would be interesting.
I'm still waiting for the argument that will prove that "if health<20% run()" is superior AI.
Or if any ranged mob is behind a wall it will run right into melee range to be slaughtered is "better AI".
But I'm not holding my breath.
I wasn't insulting you. I was commenting on the state of gaming.
That AI isn't good AI, and no one said it was as far as I can see. That's why people want better AI, after all. But that sort of code, if it's expanded, works.
In my largely ignored idea for an AI system, that MOB's AI will recognize, through repeated hits to its morale score from seeing it's fellow MOBs die, that it's a hopeless case and roll for a reaction that's heavily modified in favor of running away.
You wanted an explanation on my comment, and it's simple. For the Players faced with bad odds, what the hell's wrong with running away, or beating a fighting retreat? Live to fight again.
Players play just as dumb as the current AI, because they don't have to do more. The only strategy is "Read the cheat site and follow directions to beat said MOBs." With some few exceptions (talking about the content here). Players are perfectly capable of better game play, and I cannot understand why they aren't bored to tears with the current game play.
You can breathe now, lol. Just joking.
I don't disagree, but the problem with your theory here:
"For the Players faced with bad odds, what the hell's wrong with running
away, or beating a fighting retreat? Live to fight again. "
In a world where mobs respawn for the next player, that just doesn't work. And in dungeons, that doesn't work either.
The reasons were already mentioned in my previous post. What would YOU do as a player if you were in a stronghold and were attacked ? Call for every help available.
If mobs do the same in environments where they are able to respawn infinitely or where they have a whole dungeon allying with their faction, the player just can't win.
Mobs have to be a certain level of "DUMB" for games to be fun for players. I'm not saying the actual level can't be improved, but make them too smart, an no one will play your games.
Well, a good game design isn't going to just pop spawns all the time, they're going to give a little breather in between. But it's hard to PLACE a spawn, too. Myself, I think that Dungeons should have low level natural inhabitants that spawn, don't use a deeper AI (low animal INT), to provide for constant action. I think that better AI can give us Wandering MOBs. Those that are communal and intelligent would be seeking a home, and move into such a Dungeon if it's not already occupied by another intelligent MOB type.
In other words, the Dungeons can be cleared of these more intelligent MOBs. (Not easily, though, because of defenses and better AI.) But my thinking is a lot more detailed that that simple statement. I don't have time to get into that right now.
In your ideal world, that would work, but that does NOT work in a MMORPG with millions of players. Even in instanced content.
And you still didn't answer to the problems I mentionned in my previous post.
For instance, how do you explain that mobs in the next dungeon room just won't move even their little finger to help the mobs of the previous room when they are attacked by a bunch of very loud adventurers bashing their faces with swords, two handed axes and fireballs ? How do you explain that even if the developers separate the dungeon rooms enough for sound alerting the next room not being an issue, if you want "REAL" intelligence, mobs won't start to run towards the next room to get help once they notice they are about to lose... like players would do in PvP.
It would be VERY hard to design content that is both challenging for a specific level of player level, and not totally unbeatable because the mobs are just as smart as a player but have way more resources since they are computers and not humans.
Maybe a kind of different dungeon design is the answer.
But I also agree that overpopulation is a difficult issue. The only place it works for me is in cities.
These dungeons are supposed to be out of the way and secluded. Nobody said there was going to be tour groups here.
I agree. I think what there needs to be is a huge world with plenty of "wilds" that's harder to get to than the more localized Dungeons and typical stuff bordering the cities and routes between.
I always liked UO's "Recall Spell", which used Runestones that you can easily use to teleport to wherever that runestone is marked for. That allowed for ease of movement so Players could move about to get to the heart of their game play. But if Players are limited to, say, a dozen of these marked runestones, then they are not going to be able to go all over the game world on a whim. That might help keep out of the way Dungeons from being constantly overrun.
There may be other ways.
This is where AI can help us in so many ways.
AI that can take a huge massive world and populate it with interesting encounters. Have an array of wildlife, each with their own interesting and entertaining behaviour.
I love what UO tried to do, now I wish someone would take it to the next level.
Yes, and lower the graphics and put time effort and money into AI.
People often complain that World of Warcraft is not what it could be. Well yes, because it's easer to work with to pump out content.
Their is a lack of common sense here with people wanting even higher end graphics, when infact resources put into it helps putting an end to development of mmorpgs.
Well one could wish for both. Good graphics and decent AI.
I am a scizo misanthrope. So one day I may go BANZAI on your post. Have not yet though. Maybe there is hope? Nah there is really none for me or the human race.
Well one could wish for both. Good graphics and decent AI.
Wrong, your part of the problem.
Nah. Plenty of companies out there who have the cash enough to pull of both.
I am a scizo misanthrope. So one day I may go BANZAI on your post. Have not yet though. Maybe there is hope? Nah there is really none for me or the human race.
Well one could wish for both. Good graphics and decent AI.
Wrong, your part of the problem.
Nah. Plenty of companies out there who have the cash enough to pull of both.
This confirms my point.
Hmm you lost me there. Need more coffee. ill be back later. re read the entire post then maybe things makes more sense.
I am a scizo misanthrope. So one day I may go BANZAI on your post. Have not yet though. Maybe there is hope? Nah there is really none for me or the human race.
I agree. I think what there needs to be is a huge world with plenty of "wilds" that's harder to get to than the more localized Dungeons and typical stuff bordering the cities and routes between.
I always liked UO's "Recall Spell", which used Runestones that you can easily use to teleport to wherever that runestone is marked for. That allowed for ease of movement so Players could move about to get to the heart of their game play. But if Players are limited to, say, a dozen of these marked runestones, then they are not going to be able to go all over the game world on a whim. That might help keep out of the way Dungeons from being constantly overrun.
There may be other ways.
This is where AI can help us in so many ways.
AI that can take a huge massive world and populate it with interesting encounters. Have an array of wildlife, each with their own interesting and entertaining behaviour.
I love what UO tried to do, now I wish someone would take it to the next level.
Totally agree. Seeing a game world and its denizens act like they are more than just backdrop adds to immersion, and the sheer thrill of being in that game.
I mean, imagine you're a Ranger with high stealth skills in natural surroundings, and being able to hear the alarm calls of the various birds and animals before you see that dangerous predator coming.
------ One of the things I'd like to see is with construction. Like in games like Age of Empires, when you direct a building project, you then see some NPCs building it. They lay out stakes and rope it off, and then you see them building it. I think in MMORPGs it can go farther. The Player, single owner or city project master, would hire a crew, hire guards for them if it's not in a safe city or fort, and set it in motion. I'd like to see a full house take about a RL day to complete, a castle might take a few days. The Player wouldn't have to be there, but a skilled Builder Character might speed up the process by actively adding their own time (in chunks, like for every 2 minutes, reduces the construction time by 1 minute). Add in a small version for "repairs" to fix "decay" every week or so, assuming the Player has hired 1-3 NPC staff full time for the job.
The same for all sorts of additions, like streetlights, statues, water fountains and wells, etc.
Just watching this sort of activity would make the game world feel more alive and immersive. And there's a management game inside of that, just like in those strategy games. -------
Getting back to the wilderness, there is loads of things that can be done to make the game world much more immersive and fun to be in.
Well one could wish for both. Good graphics and decent AI.
Wrong, your part of the problem.
Nah. Plenty of companies out there who have the cash enough to pull of both.
This confirms my point.
Hmm you lost me there. Need more coffee. ill be back later. re read the entire post then maybe things makes more sense.
Don't worry about it. Delete's being a bit snarky. I agreed with you. But as we know, it all costs more money to do. The there's also the fact that a company can do it big, or not so big, which opens up possibilities.
Well one could wish for both. Good graphics and decent AI.
Is it possible? Yes
Is it likely? No
When you have a high graphics game costing you 90% more to make that chance you are going to squeeze in good gameplay on the remaining budget is unlikely. All these high graphics games cost bankroll to make.
I am curious if ever there is an MMO that has great gameplay with low graphics that also cost a bankroll to make.
I would bet every single high dollar MMO was mainly due to graphics.
Well one could wish for both. Good graphics and decent AI.
Considering it's not the same team of developers doing those two very different parts of the engine, I don't see why not.
So its less expensive if the work is split in two ?
How old are you ?..... I'll stop responding to your posting, I can't take it.
I'm going to try to make it simple...
In a restaurant team for instance (I mean a real restaurant, not a burger flipper), it's not the same guy washing the dishes and preparing the meal.
It's the same in a development team, even more on very large projects like MMORPGs. Each has his specialty, and it's not the same guys working on the graphics engine and on the AI engine. And don't get me even started on people confusing the ART team with the DEVELOPMENT team... people like you, actually.
So having better graphics in no way hinders having better AI.
And be careful with those insults, or you'll end banned again.
Post edited by The_Korrigan on
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
Comments
I don't disagree, but the problem with your theory here:
"For the Players faced with bad odds, what the hell's wrong with running away, or beating a fighting retreat? Live to fight again. "
In a world where mobs respawn for the next player, that just doesn't work. And in dungeons, that doesn't work either.
The reasons were already mentioned in my previous post. What would YOU do as a player if you were in a stronghold and were attacked ? Call for every help available.
If mobs do the same in environments where they are able to respawn infinitely or where they have a whole dungeon allying with their faction, the player just can't win.
Mobs have to be a certain level of "DUMB" for games to be fun for players. I'm not saying the actual level can't be improved, but make them too smart, an no one will play your games.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
Myself, I think that Dungeons should have low level natural inhabitants that spawn, don't use a deeper AI (low animal INT), to provide for constant action.
I think that better AI can give us Wandering MOBs. Those that are communal and intelligent would be seeking a home, and move into such a Dungeon if it's not already occupied by another intelligent MOB type.
In other words, the Dungeons can be cleared of these more intelligent MOBs. (Not easily, though, because of defenses and better AI.)
But my thinking is a lot more detailed that that simple statement. I don't have time to get into that right now.
Once upon a time....
In your ideal world, that would work, but that does NOT work in a MMORPG with millions of players. Even in instanced content.
And you still didn't answer to the problems I mentionned in my previous post.
For instance, how do you explain that mobs in the next dungeon room just won't move even their little finger to help the mobs of the previous room when they are attacked by a bunch of very loud adventurers bashing their faces with swords, two handed axes and fireballs ?
How do you explain that even if the developers separate the dungeon rooms enough for sound alerting the next room not being an issue, if you want "REAL" intelligence, mobs won't start to run towards the next room to get help once they notice they are about to lose... like players would do in PvP.
It would be VERY hard to design content that is both challenging for a specific level of player level, and not totally unbeatable because the mobs are just as smart as a player but have way more resources since they are computers and not humans.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
Keep in mind, that the MOBS are stuck there in that dungeon, while the player is not. So an AI still would need to function with what it has, it has no means to truly escape, so much like any player in a PvP match, when you know you can't run, the only other option is turn and fight. Just like when a small group, or solo player gets hit by a zerg, if they don't think they are run away, they stand and fight, accepting death as the only outcome.
Or when a player gets hit a vastly superior opponent in PvP, if they know they can't run, they might as well die fighting.
A MOB AI would function no better.
Also, keep in mind, if a bunch of players saw their fellow players getting brutally killed by another player other force, IE: Your small team just got steamrolled by Zerg, or someone just dropped half your group in a PvP match without even getting hurt, unless you were far stronger or better players then the ones being killed, you would run for it, like, run clean out of the dungeon/zone saying "Fuck that"
But MOB's don't have that choice, they are stuck there in that dungeon.
So mobs pack attacking a Player or group, would just be a suicide run, which, lets be honest, is not smart gameplay, if the goal was realistic game play, rez-rushing suicided attacks are not the thing to do.
Also keep in mind, if you play a PvP game, just because you call for help, does not in any way mean you won't die alone, where you stand, because everyone else was setting up an ambush and didn't want to expose themselves, or maybe they knew that the other team was just far better than they were, and figured "Fuck That"
I mean really, if you wanted true AI, the system would be like
Think of how stupid boring that would be, that would be like playing a PvP game where if the other team knew you would win, everyone recalled/quit and just handed you the objective and victory.
Reminds me of the Ork players that would quit hot join games in EC, if the matchup was against Eldar. because Eldar were far OP against Ork it was not even funny, Elder were OP AF anyway, and since the game was dead they were not going to fix that, but, players took matters into their own hands, and realized if they no chance to win, they would quit, and would rather wait for a different match up then face Eldar, eventually everyone stopped playing Eldar, because they could not get matches.
Is that really what anyone would want from a PvE game with an AI, where they would just not fight you unless they could win.. talk about a shit game from the get go. No one wants an Opponent that would play like that, where they either win or quit.
So, yah.. anyway.. AI is a not really the desire, the desire is for fun content that be beat.
The problem, then, is maybe NOT the AI ? But the way content is designed, totally unrealistically ?
A player shoots some mob on the top of an enemy fortress. What would happen in "real" world, with "real" intelligence ? The whole base would be alerted, the guy would most likely end in prison or dead.
Problem is... make this more "intelligent", more "realistic", and it would not be fun, it wouldn't work.
Selective pulling is part of the CRPG genre for so long it's part of the culture. Reverting that is going to be very challenging... and even more challenging if you still want to make it fun and "playable".
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
But was that fun? Well.. the long and short answer is: No.
Yes, in my AI system, with "Dungeon AI" that's gives MOBs in a Dungeon more options, a MOB could go get help. Especially if that MOB "breaks" it's "save roll" because it lost a lot of morale from seeing its comrades die.
But there's more. The Dungeon AI also allows MOBs that move in to build things like defensive barriers and work stations. Another of those things might be a large horn hanging on a wall that they can blow for alert the next room of MOBs, and they would then use AI to decide if they will come to help, set up a defensive strategy, or even alert the entire Dungeon of their allies.
If the MOBs are unbeatable because of this, the Players will need a new strategy, and maybe some extra help. They may have to give up on this day and try again another day.
In the meantime, they can go to other Dungeons that aren't controlled by a large MOB with intelligent reactions of this sort of social military behavior.
Once upon a time....
Besides, since when did players stop running from unbeatable odds?
Are they so attuned to "guaranteed win" that they just stand there and die like an NPC MOB?
One of the most memorable things I saw in UO was my first time to a place called "The Orc Fort". In Beta, it had been taken over by powerful spell casting Liches.
It was on a small peninsula, and a mass of Players would group up just off the neck of the peninsula, and send in one guy to draw out a few Liches.
But sometimes they accidentally grabbed all of them, and died while training all those Liches to the other Players.
Then it was a massive assault by those powerful spell casters on the players gathered there. Lag set in, making it all seem like slow motion. With Players running away and Liches following, casting spells, Characters dropping right and left.
It was a sight to see, I'll tell ya.
And in UO, everything you carried dropped on your corpse. And the MOBs LOOTED YOU!
Haha, Gamers have become so cottled, all for the guaranteed win.
Once upon a time....
Sometimes they would start to run, and some classes were really good at escaping, like Theif, but more often than not, when they realized they were not going to escape, they would just turn and fight. Might as well go down swinging.
As far as having a bunch of NPC Mobs kill you, like in Mistmore. Well, that was the result of someone else who pulled the Train, and there was no gearing up for that.
See a Train was the result of some dumbass pulling more than they could handle, running for the zone, and killing everyone else around them in the stupidity. This was not some thing where everyone was lined up to handle that situation like your zombie island thing, that would be a raid in EQ.
Nahh in Mist More People would pull sit from deep in the Castle, right to the zone, as they ran for it. This was a dumbass move pulling a train, and if they were able, they would run for the Zone, sometimes shouting TRAIN, sometimes, not, and everyone around them would get blindsided by the mess, and often die for it. Keep in mind, you if didn't have a means to augment your run speed, you were just flat out dead.
Same with Black Burrow, where you were still in the starting zones, and would go in, to a pack of mobs standing at the zone entrance, because someone ran for the zone, which would give anyone that zoned in a solid beatdown, right there.
Honestly, dealing with the stupid of other players was not fun either.
These dungeons are supposed to be out of the way and secluded. Nobody said there was going to be tour groups here.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
I think what there needs to be is a huge world with plenty of "wilds" that's harder to get to than the more localized Dungeons and typical stuff bordering the cities and routes between.
I always liked UO's "Recall Spell", which used Runestones that you can easily use to teleport to wherever that runestone is marked for.
That allowed for ease of movement so Players could move about to get to the heart of their game play.
But if Players are limited to, say, a dozen of these marked runestones, then they are not going to be able to go all over the game world on a whim.
That might help keep out of the way Dungeons from being constantly overrun.
There may be other ways.
Once upon a time....
AI that can take a huge massive world and populate it with interesting encounters. Have an array of wildlife, each with their own interesting and entertaining behaviour.
I love what UO tried to do, now I wish someone would take it to the next level.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
People often complain that World of Warcraft is not what it could be. Well yes, because it's easer to work with to pump out content.
Their is a lack of common sense here with people wanting even higher end graphics, when infact resources put into it helps putting an end to development of mmorpgs.
Have not yet though. Maybe there is hope?
Nah there is really none for me or the human race.
Have not yet though. Maybe there is hope?
Nah there is really none for me or the human race.
Have not yet though. Maybe there is hope?
Nah there is really none for me or the human race.
Seeing a game world and its denizens act like they are more than just backdrop adds to immersion, and the sheer thrill of being in that game.
I mean, imagine you're a Ranger with high stealth skills in natural surroundings, and being able to hear the alarm calls of the various birds and animals before you see that dangerous predator coming.
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One of the things I'd like to see is with construction.
Like in games like Age of Empires, when you direct a building project, you then see some NPCs building it. They lay out stakes and rope it off, and then you see them building it.
I think in MMORPGs it can go farther.
The Player, single owner or city project master, would hire a crew, hire guards for them if it's not in a safe city or fort, and set it in motion.
I'd like to see a full house take about a RL day to complete, a castle might take a few days. The Player wouldn't have to be there, but a skilled Builder Character might speed up the process by actively adding their own time (in chunks, like for every 2 minutes, reduces the construction time by 1 minute).
Add in a small version for "repairs" to fix "decay" every week or so, assuming the Player has hired 1-3 NPC staff full time for the job.
The same for all sorts of additions, like streetlights, statues, water fountains and wells, etc.
Just watching this sort of activity would make the game world feel more alive and immersive. And there's a management game inside of that, just like in those strategy games.
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Getting back to the wilderness, there is loads of things that can be done to make the game world much more immersive and fun to be in.
Once upon a time....
I agreed with you. But as we know, it all costs more money to do.
The there's also the fact that a company can do it big, or not so big, which opens up possibilities.
Once upon a time....
Is it possible? Yes
Is it likely? No
When you have a high graphics game costing you 90% more to make that chance you are going to squeeze in good gameplay on the remaining budget is unlikely. All these high graphics games cost bankroll to make.
I am curious if ever there is an MMO that has great gameplay with low graphics that also cost a bankroll to make.
I would bet every single high dollar MMO was mainly due to graphics.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
[mod edit]
It's the same in a development team, even more on very large projects like MMORPGs. Each has his specialty, and it's not the same guys working on the graphics engine and on the AI engine. And don't get me even started on people confusing the ART team with the DEVELOPMENT team... people like you, actually.
So having better graphics in no way hinders having better AI.
And be careful with those insults, or you'll end banned again.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023