My personal take is if you want good PvP in a game then you need to have the proper rewards and achievements (and of course penalties) to encourage the hardcore players to fight one another rather than just go grief little jimmy pee pants, a level three nobody who's just trying to mind his own business and level fishing, until he throws up and leaves the game forever.
and have you found that game? I have never found a game where PVP was done well.
Not really. SWG came closest. Their system of overt, covert, or neutral was pretty nice. It allowed for always on, selective PvP, or allowed one to ignore the whole thing. The only problem was that the Empire faction seemed to get much better toys than the rag tag, and let's face it, pissy pants Rebels.
My personal take is if you want good PvP in a game then you need to have the proper rewards and achievements (and of course penalties) to encourage the hardcore players to fight one another rather than just go grief little jimmy pee pants, a level three nobody who's just trying to mind his own business and level fishing, until he throws up and leaves the game forever.
and have you found that game? I have never found a game where PVP was done well.
My personal take is if you want good PvP in a game then you need to have the proper rewards and achievements (and of course penalties) to encourage the hardcore players to fight one another rather than just go grief little jimmy pee pants, a level three nobody who's just trying to mind his own business and level fishing, until he throws up and leaves the game forever.
and have you found that game? I have never found a game where PVP was done well.
Daoc was best I seen.
I actually enjoyed the PVE in DAoC more than the PVP...Why? Because of stealthers....They made it no fun fighting in PVP...I got 1-2 shot many times by stealth classes..... I also didnt like having to level up several trades to make one piece of armor.....The crafting was set up well, it was just a pain to have to do so many.
My personal take is if you want good PvP in a game then you need to have the proper rewards and achievements (and of course penalties) to encourage the hardcore players to fight one another rather than just go grief little jimmy pee pants, a level three nobody who's just trying to mind his own business and level fishing, until he throws up and leaves the game forever.
and have you found that game? I have never found a game where PVP was done well.
Daoc was best I seen.
I actually enjoyed the PVE in DAoC more than the PVP...Why? Because of stealthers....They made it no fun fighting in PVP...I got 1-2 shot many times by stealth classes..... I also didnt like having to level up several trades to make one piece of armor.....The crafting was set up well, it was just a pain to have to do so many.
Well from what you wrote, you were trying to play the game mostly solo which was never the developer's intent.
You were meant to cooperate with other members of your guild to craft armor while some other crafts which came later like jewelry crafting could be silo'd which is why I decided to focus on it.
Same with stealthers, if you played a squishy caster, sure, they could be a bitch, but they had no chance against a well geared tank or merc, unless they caught one sitting down and resting.
It was a game of counters and even when I played an Ice Theuri it worked out because if the steather attacked anyone else but me they'd quickly find a half dozen ice pets on them which couldn't be evaded or escaped from and they'd end up dead, even if I died in the process sometimes from their poisons.
But Kyle, wouldn't they always attack you first then? Nope, first, I wore the same cloth armor that Mages and Sorcs wore, and since Sorcs could area mezz for up to a minute they were usually primary. (In a group of course)
Also, Friars wore robes and carried staves and when well played they were the bane of stealthers who mistook them for a squishy caster who instead turned out to be a whirling Dervish of melee DPS, who could heal themselves as well.
I knew a Merc (rugged, high DPS melee class) who wore his usual chain armor with a cloth "robe" chest piece, then would sit in the Frontiers looking like a resting caster.
He killed a lot of stealthers who didn't see the trap.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
My personal take is if you want good PvP in a game then you need to have the proper rewards and achievements (and of course penalties) to encourage the hardcore players to fight one another rather than just go grief little jimmy pee pants, a level three nobody who's just trying to mind his own business and level fishing, until he throws up and leaves the game forever.
and have you found that game? I have never found a game where PVP was done well.
Daoc was best I seen.
I actually enjoyed the PVE in DAoC more than the PVP...Why? Because of stealthers....They made it no fun fighting in PVP...I got 1-2 shot many times by stealth classes..... I also didnt like having to level up several trades to make one piece of armor.....The crafting was set up well, it was just a pain to have to do so many.
Yeah I agree with you, moving while completely invisible even if people are nearby, and chain stun lock attacks. That's a pretty wicked combo. Add dots/poison and high dps attacks.
But with that said every game has flaws, I still thought it was the best, there are always things that can be tweaked or changed to make a game better.
Apparently, according to the number of answers to this thread, people will read and answer to garbage too.
Me included, of course
Shots fired.
First shots were fired in the OP. Don't want to get burned, don't approach the flame.
I'm not the kind of guy who goes looking for trouble. I certainly don't create it or help perpetuate it, you p** p** head.
Well, you have "some guy", a usual suspect, posting that most of the games we are enjoying and playing are actually garbage. If he doesn't expect some kind of retaliation from those of us who don't hold the other cheek... then he's delusional.
This whole thread is baiting, trolling, yet is tolerated. So similar toned answers should be tolerated too. At least that's the conception of freedom of speech in my country. I know it gets lost in many countries, with that "woke" stuff and other nonsense.
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Apparently, according to the number of answers to this thread, people will read and answer to garbage too.
Me included, of course
Shots fired.
First shots were fired in the OP. Don't want to get burned, don't approach the flame.
I'm not the kind of guy who goes looking for trouble. I certainly don't create it or help perpetuate it, you p** p** head.
Well, you have "some guy", a usual suspect, posting that most of the games we are enjoying and playing are actually garbage. If he doesn't expect some kind of retaliation from those of us who don't hold the other cheek... then he's delusional.
This whole thread is baiting, trolling, yet is tolerated. So similar toned answers should be tolerated too. At least that's the conception of freedom of speech in my country. I know it gets lost in many countries, with that "woke" stuff and other nonsense.
Wow you must be completely opposite to the OP, you been going on for so long its crazy, let it go. On second thought maybe you should think of dating, you know they say opposites attract
Let me ask you a couple of questions: 1: Can you think of a single advantage the caravan has... even one? 2: How many times would you have to lose hours of crafting work to PKs such that you'd never use a caravan again?
I pointed out a few different examples rather than just the UO one but I'll entertain:
1) The caravan has the goods, the reason they are being hunted. Why they would need an advantage is a little lost on me. 2) Crafting in a game isn't work to me, if I am looking at a game and thinking of it as work then I've already lost the game.
I am well aware of how these systems have been abused over time for example, huge guilds that travel from game to game and have 50-man raids on said caravan. I don't claim to have the fixes for these issues, but I also don't believe in guild vs guild optional pvp either. If pvp is optional then it will always result in no one ever taking anything useful into combat and therefore, there is never a reward for pvp other than epeen. I would much prefer people banding together to fend off the 50-man raid of their caravan over optional pvp on the caravan and never gaining anything from it.
In asking for an advantage for the caravan what I meant was in a PvP situation the PK has an enormous set of advantages. Given that, why would anyone take on the role of a caravan and fight at a disadvantage?
As for crafting being work - I doubt you've ever crafted in any game just to throw away all of the benefits it should give you (wealth, status, etc).
My problem with PKs isn't that death happen, rather, it is the enormous advantages they bring in games like UO.
For me personally, the frustration was I had no way to counter what the PKs were doing. Even if I managed to kill one of them he could literally be back in minutes fully geared and ready to mess up my evening. Killing them accomplished nothing.
I think it is possible to come up with systems that help counter the advantages that PKs have but I've yet to see a developer do so in a way I find appealing. I think "limited lives" on a PK would do quite a bit to get bounty hunters interested in hunting these guys down - especially if you got a trophy for landing the final kill.
The idea may suck in practice... I dunno, let's come up with something though.
Bah , we took advantage of the PKS thirst on Atlantic at that time by running Fake Caravans ..Was fun as hell , but we were laying traps for PKs all over ... During those times..
UO is a game wherethe tools were/are there for the players to combat the PKs , you just needed to organize and do it ..The reason Pks got an advantage most times is they were better organized than many players , we recognized and changed that..
By 98 we had assembled a good bunch of 7x players ( are core was 8) with other groups involved at times we 20-30 players patrolling g or setting traos for PKs all over Atlantic. Fun times ..
The reason you they had the advantage is ...You let them have it ... We took it away and turned the tables on them ..
It was more fun back then 97-2002 or so than it is now ..
I still , along with my guild do alot of stuff In Felluca, we run dungeons there for rares, drop rates are better , as well as resource and skill gain bonuses, but there is no where near the action there was years ago , but it's just enough that you better have your senses about you, or become a victim ..
That is fun for people who enjoy PvP. Not so fun for people trying to enjoy the game in other ways.
Crafters/life skillers can stay at home without fear of dying, while the PvPers can go out and bring back the materials for the folks at home. There's a place for everyone in these types of games. There is quite a repertoire of PvE focused MMORPGs for the people that disagree, but very very few PvP MMORPGs where us bloodthirsty savages can reside.
There's a fundamental reason for that. PvP requires a player to lose. PvE does not.
So at the olympics we should just give everyone gold medals for participating? Have each contestant compete against an AI since we don't want to hurt anyone's feelings if they lose to another contestant? There has to be a loser for anyone to be a winner, or else what is there to be proud of when you win? I don't get it. I just don't see the fun in that sort of gameplay in an MMORPG, thats what single player games are for; and there's probably a far more engaging story in the single player game.
The Olympics are inherently competitive, at the highest level no less. MMORPGs need not be competitive, at any level. One says little to nothing of the other, making the comparison between them essentially pointless.
Huh, it's not dead, you guys scared me for a moment again... guess I will see you next time we discuss for the 1037th time how PVP/MMO games are dead, teach those useless devs how to limit those pesky antisocial PVPers while teaching them how to play their game, or debate what RPG and MMO means (smiley to scare away Poe's law). Love y'all.
*this rotten tomato now logs in for some casual anti-social behaviour and griefing newbs with his 20 friends*
Being alive is an easy condition for games to meet. That can vary from vibrant and healthy to on the cusp of death. Where do you think EVE would fit between those extremes?
Apparently, according to the number of answers to this thread, people will read and answer to garbage too.
Me included, of course
Shots fired.
First shots were fired in the OP. Don't want to get burned, don't approach the flame.
I'm not the kind of guy who goes looking for trouble. I certainly don't create it or help perpetuate it, you p** p** head.
Well, you have "some guy", a usual suspect, posting that most of the games we are enjoying and playing are actually garbage. If he doesn't expect some kind of retaliation from those of us who don't hold the other cheek... then he's delusional.
This whole thread is baiting, trolling, yet is tolerated. So similar toned answers should be tolerated too. At least that's the conception of freedom of speech in my country. I know it gets lost in many countries, with that "woke" stuff and other nonsense.
Does this guy often start trouble ? Not sure I haven't viewed his history. Then again I'm not the type that would go searching out his past record.
"having to attack" and "advantages" are irrelevant in an OW PVP game. That's the game. In the Albion example, the gatherer "has to" gather and evade to get his profit, and the ganker "has to" gank to get his. That's the game loop.
I appreciate this very clear statement - I'm not kidding, this is a good starting point for discussion.
My problem would be my opinion that the game loop you describe kind of sucks, at least from the risk vs. reward perspective. In a game like UO the gatherer could lose quite a bit while the attacking PK typically had next to nothing to lose (as far as loot).
The advantages of attacking are huge - going after a noob already fighting orcs is child's play. You say, "Get a posse together and hunt the PK". Oh, you mean the one that logs out at the first sign of blow back and watches a movie on Netflix while the posse blows an entire evening looking for him?
There is nothing 'fun' in that equation for the crafter or the posse.
In Albion online, gankers don't always get the fruits of the harvester's labor, more often they watch in disappointment as the foragers flee
"Gathering equipment has the advantage of escape"
Such as miner shoes, he can increase the running speed for a short time, wait until the distance from the ganker is drawn, ride on my mount and run away
Also because of this feature
Many gankers also like to wear miner's shoes, but the side effect of miner's shoes is that they can't use skills during acceleration
For the gatherer, I want to escape I don't need other skills, assuming that the counterattack will fall into a combat state and cannot pass through the portal
For ganker, miner's shoes can speed up but can't pin down the bundled gatherer at the same time, only race
I have a top full line reaper account in Albion
Escape from ganker capture is more fun than ganker activity
Huh, it's not dead, you guys scared me for a moment again... guess I will see you next time we discuss for the 1037th time how PVP/MMO games are dead, teach those useless devs how to limit those pesky antisocial PVPers while teaching them how to play their game, or debate what RPG and MMO means (smiley to scare away Poe's law). Love y'all.
*this rotten tomato now logs in for some casual anti-social behaviour and griefing newbs with his 20 friends*
Being alive is an easy condition for games to meet. That can vary from vibrant and healthy to on the cusp of death. Where do you think EVE would fit between those extremes?
The Fantasy Sandbox MMORPG | Albion Online (DAU) (for Albion that's the latest official, if you extrapolate Steam charts' concurrent players trend to the native launcher as well this could be up to ~30% off, still a good number).
Excellent. There aren't many such games so it is good to hear those available are doing well.
Huh, it's not dead, you guys scared me for a moment again... guess I will see you next time we discuss for the 1037th time how PVP/MMO games are dead, teach those useless devs how to limit those pesky antisocial PVPers while teaching them how to play their game, or debate what RPG and MMO means (smiley to scare away Poe's law). Love y'all.
*this rotten tomato now logs in for some casual anti-social behaviour and griefing newbs with his 20 friends*
Being alive is an easy condition for games to meet. That can vary from vibrant and healthy to on the cusp of death. Where do you think EVE would fit between those extremes?
The Fantasy Sandbox MMORPG | Albion Online (DAU) (for Albion that's the latest official, if you extrapolate Steam charts' concurrent players trend to the native launcher as well this could be up to ~30% off, still a good number).
Excellent. There aren't many such games so it is good to hear those available are doing well.
Those well designed, with strong countermeasures against mindless ganking and mass murdering of newbies, thrive.
The others... are either small niche games with a skeleton player base or fail.
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
Each counter-measure that Albion includes to deter ganking is an admission that open world PvP doesn't work very well and that it is a problem that must be addressed. Because of this, I don't think Albion qualifies as an open world PvP title.
I don't play Albion. But from what I've read from this thread (thx @tzervo , it seems that the devs instead of applying PK repression through various stupid punishments, they actually provided ways for players to escape gankers efficiently, creating an interesting cat/mouse game-loop.
Why being PKed is so frustrating?
Because, usually there is not much you can do about it.
The ganker ganks, kills, you're dead and pissed off. You go yell all your discontentment online, you want those p** p** heads to be punished!
But what happens if you have real means to escape the gank. Well, you raise the bigmongest middle finger to the ganker, and rub it energetically with a smile.
Comments
Not really. SWG came closest. Their system of overt, covert, or neutral was pretty nice. It allowed for always on, selective PvP, or allowed one to ignore the whole thing. The only problem was that the Empire faction seemed to get much better toys than the rag tag, and let's face it, pissy pants Rebels.
I actually enjoyed the PVE in DAoC more than the PVP...Why? Because of stealthers....They made it no fun fighting in PVP...I got 1-2 shot many times by stealth classes..... I also didnt like having to level up several trades to make one piece of armor.....The crafting was set up well, it was just a pain to have to do so many.
You were meant to cooperate with other members of your guild to craft armor while some other crafts which came later like jewelry crafting could be silo'd which is why I decided to focus on it.
Same with stealthers, if you played a squishy caster, sure, they could be a bitch, but they had no chance against a well geared tank or merc, unless they caught one sitting down and resting.
It was a game of counters and even when I played an Ice Theuri it worked out because if the steather attacked anyone else but me they'd quickly find a half dozen ice pets on them which couldn't be evaded or escaped from and they'd end up dead, even if I died in the process sometimes from their poisons.
But Kyle, wouldn't they always attack you first then? Nope, first, I wore the same cloth armor that Mages and Sorcs wore, and since Sorcs could area mezz for up to a minute they were usually primary. (In a group of course)
Also, Friars wore robes and carried staves and when well played they were the bane of stealthers who mistook them for a squishy caster who instead turned out to be a whirling Dervish of melee DPS, who could heal themselves as well.
I knew a Merc (rugged, high DPS melee class) who wore his usual chain armor with a cloth "robe" chest piece, then would sit in the Frontiers looking like a resting caster.
He killed a lot of stealthers who didn't see the trap.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
But with that said every game has flaws, I still thought it was the best, there are always things that can be tweaked or changed to make a game better.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
First shots were fired in the OP.
Don't want to get burned, don't approach the flame.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
At least that's the conception of freedom of speech in my country. I know it gets lost in many countries, with that "woke" stuff and other nonsense.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Being alive is an easy condition for games to meet. That can vary from vibrant and healthy to on the cusp of death. Where do you think EVE would fit between those extremes?
Not sure I haven't viewed his history. Then again I'm not the type that would go searching out his past record.
Excellent. There aren't many such games so it is good to hear those available are doing well.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023