For too many people though their enjoyment is ruining someone els's game...That is their fun....THey dont want a fair fight....They want to dominate against someone that has zero chance of ever killing them....
If you look at a single fight, yes. If you zoom out, no.
================================
Take the example of the highwaymen and the caravan from the previous page. As Wargfoot mentioned, the caravan has no advantage in that single encounter.
But maybe the caravan has 9 out of 10 successful runs because the map is too large to cover or because of successful scouting and has a huge net positive in gains.
Maybe the scouting/ambush is part of the two sides' skillset, and on a well-balanced game both players take part in that loop investing TIME (and not the naive: "gatherer is the only one who risks because they have the mats" - both invest time) and get some PROFIT out of it (the caravan from a number of successful runs and the PKers from successful ambushes).
================================
A real example: Albion gatherer vs ganker loop. Both have special gear, the ganker to gank/dismount and the gatherer to evade and run away. Skill and awareness will define whether the gatherer or the ganker goes away with the mats. The mats belong to neither until they reach the city. That's the fundamental part of the loop that PVEers can't understand, they think that because they harvested the mats, they belong to them. They ignore the whole loop because it does not fit their playstyle.
"But what if the gatherer is in guild territory and calls on a whole guild?"
================================
Saying in an OW PVP game that some people just like to attack players with 0 chance is very naïve, simplistic and disingenuous - just some players saying "our way of playing your game is better, you must play it our way"
The problem here is that the PKers don't have to attack, and they usually don't unless they have a clear advantage. And help is just a forum message away.
So you didn't read what I wrote.
Nothing you said changes that, as far as I can see. Please explain, if you think I'm wrong.
Yadayada murder boxes, and we know how popular those are.
yadayada harassing yadayadayada abused by the rotten apples to interrupt the fun of others yadayada
(rolls eyes)
You can roll your eyes and you can make excuses about "no legit effort, minimal resources, etc", but you're just avoiding the reality.
MOBAs do organized MMORPG PvP better than MMORPGs actually do it. You won't sustain an MMORPG on organized PvP alone. Mass PvP is much harder to balance and support wrt latency, and unless it's sequestered, has a tendency to severely limit your potential playerbase. Ignoring those things won't magically create a condition for PvP MMORPGs to flourish. And with shooters and medieval combat games like Chiv2 encroaching on that mass PvP in a way MMORPGs haven't even began to touch, the window of opportunity for a "PvP" mmorpg is only shrinking.
I was a DAoC lover. But today, if I want to siege a keep and take some heads with an axe, I load up Chiv2, not ESO or DAoC.
Nothing you said changes that, as far as I can see. Please explain, if you think I'm wrong.
on a well-balanced game both players take part in that loop investing TIME (and not the naive: "gatherer is the only one who risks because they have the mats" - both invest time) and get some PROFIT out of it (the caravan from a number of successful runs and the PKers from successful ambushes).
A real example: Albion gatherer vs ganker loop. Both have special gear, the ganker to gank/dismount and the gatherer to evade and run away. Skill and awareness will define whether the gatherer or the ganker goes away with the mats. The mats belong to neither until they reach the city. That's the fundamental part of the loop that PVEers can't understand, they think that because they harvested the mats, they belong to them. They ignore the whole loop because it does not fit their playstyle
"having to attack" and "advantages" are irrelevant in an OW PVP game. That's the game. In the Albion example, the gatherer "has to" gather and evade to get his profit, and the ganker "has to" gank to get his. That's the game loop.
And what happens when there are 2 or 3 gankers against one gatherer?
Yadayada murder boxes, and we know how popular those are.
yadayada harassing yadayadayada abused by the rotten apples to interrupt the fun of others yadayada
(rolls eyes)
You can roll your eyes and you can make excuses about "no legit effort, minimal resources, etc", but you're just avoiding the reality.
MOBAs do organized MMORPG PvP better than MMORPGs actually do it. You won't sustain an MMORPG on organized PvP alone. Mass PvP is much harder to balance and support wrt latency, and unless it's sequestered, has a tendency to severely limit your potential playerbase. Ignoring those things won't magically create a condition for PvP MMORPGs to flourish. And with shooters and medieval combat games like Chiv2 encroaching on that mass PvP in a way MMORPGs haven't even began to touch, the window of opportunity for a "PvP" mmorpg is only shrinking.
I was a DAoC lover. But today, if I want to siege a keep and take some heads with an axe, I load up Chiv2, not ESO or DAoC.
Define flourish. EVE is still doing fine despite being 19 years old. Albion reported 270k DAU recently. Not everything has to be WoW or FFXIV. Awesome small niche games as well, such as Foxhole and Screeps, from tiny studios. There is no need for a "window of opportunity", as long as studios know the size of their audience and can adjust their strategy accordingly.
The "no legit effort minimal resources" was targeted specifically to those failed recent attempts, both PVP and PVE, from small/crowdfunded studios - you are extrapolating there.
The "rolls eyes" was for the textbook PVE rant phrasing.
Foxhole and such are less MMORPG than merely multiplayer competitive. Screeps I don't know much about, but Foxhole shares more in common with Hell Let Loose than Albion, which kind of reinforces my point that other genres are coming for rhe "mass PvP" niche that used to be the sole realm of MMORPGs.
And those are successful, but only impressive if you refuse to place them in the context of their genres. They both also include areas where a player is effectively safe from being forced to PvP, which is the sequestering I mentioned.
Now, from all of this, you might assume I dislike the idea of an open world PvP MMORPG like UO/MO2. I don't. Really! I've just accepted the fact that technology may render that idea rather moot in terms of profitability, and to create a meaningful, intelligent, effective PK justice system, you have to take away the ability of players to both abuse mechanics AND hard reset by starting new accounts, even if they have to purchase a box and pay a sub to do so. The only way I've been able to wrap my head around realistically accomplishing that requires a much higher barrier to entry that isn't monetary. It's ID checks involving things like Driver's License numbers, so that players who are banned are *banned*.
MMO =/= MMORPG. Foxhole is not an RPG in any sense of the word. It is a competive multiplayer top-down shooter with a metagame map.
Screeps does not appear to be an MMORPG either, as players control a colony and not a single player avatar. That really sets it apart from, say, MO2.
To say that "Gamers that don't like how pre-Trammel UO, MO2, etc PK works" should just find news games will only ensure you have less gaming opportunities for MMORPG PvP in general.
Driver's License numbers are public record, so it's strange that you would find that Orwellian. That doesn't seem very rational to me (truly, no offense meant). Getting banned from a game is a far, far cry from Orwellian oppression.
MMO =/= MMORPG. Foxhole is not an RPG in any sense of the word. It is a competive multiplayer top-down shooter with a metagame map.
Foxhole has roles such as logi, builder, driver, gunner, medic, soldier etc. Do you think a semantics argument will help here? Fine, lets go back to using Albion and EVE as examples if it helps, since they are more familiar.
(and then gamers complain about no innovation mumble grumble rolls eyes...)
Driver's License numbers are public record, so it's strange that you would find that Orwellian. That doesn't seem very rational to me (truly, no offense meant). Getting banned from a game is a far, far cry from Orwellian oppression.
Driver's licenses are not public record where I come from and I think they are not where I currently live either (UK). A game company already has a tie to you in real life (name and billing information), isn't this enough? Or are you talking F2P games? I guess I can see a case being made there, that was a knee-jerk reaction from my side you are right, need to think it over again ...
Having combat roles does not make it an RPG, though. Hell Let Loose has combat roles. Chivalry 2 has combat roles. All MOBAs have combat roles. Squad has combat roles. Team Fortress 2 has combat roles.
When I say RPG, I assume we're using the term as it's widely known, not as a technicality might include. Shooters have never been considered RPGs because they don't include many traditional RPG features. Even games like Battlefield and CoD, with the player rank progression (and combat roles in the case of Battlefield), are not realistically considered role-playing games.
Nobody is saying Foxhole isn't an innovative take. It's just not an MMORPG in any popular sense. It doesn't really help the MMORPG genre to innovate by trying to co-opt titles that happen to have massively multiplayer game loops/modes. One can compare Foxhole to ESO and find immediate, obvious, substantial gameplay loop differences. Those are important distinctions.
And what happens when there are 2 or 3 gankers against one gatherer?
Better awareness (blobs from a size up are marked on the map, sounds, corpses of other players in the game or on the map etc). Tips from the link I shared. Switch area. Make sure your profits exceed your losses overall - getting ganked is part of the "operational cost". Gather in your guild's territory and call on your guild to clean the intruders. All part of the game. And already mentioned it:
"But what if the ganker has 20 friends?" "But what if the gatherer is in guild territory and calls on a whole guild?"
As I said, I could tell you did not read my post that you replied to. Can't blame you though, we both know what the other person is going to say and we know we will not agree anyway.
No, we will not agree. I am sure of that.
I've read posts like that ever since the beginning (UO, and on). They are designed to try to convince PvEers they can actually survive on a regular basis, and things never turn out that way. These posts leave a lot of the whole picture out. In short, they are BS.
There is no "problem", just different games for different tastes. And most of the times anti-social behaviour translates to "I do not like your playstyle in your game that is made for that playstyle" (note the "most"!)
If devs do not want pkers attacking new players specifically (and devs should want to protect their new players) they can code it out using starter areas or security spaces EVE style and that's it.
Yeah there is a problem, these games are dyeing over these decisions. People are saying the entire genre is dead because of these kinds of games in the MMO space that fail over and over again.
The reality is the moment you put PVE content into PVP zones (especially full loot) it sets off a chain reaction of design decisions that the vast majority of players don't want. Which is why these games fail over and over again.
Things like: Gear becomes meaningless making hard to get gear that nobody wears or is not in the game. People cant play casually or afk to take a bathroom break without coming back dead and no gear. Cooperation when you see just some person, you have to worry if they will try to take your stuff rather than cooperation to help kill a boss/mob. Cant kill difficult mobs because you are constantly worrying about if someone going one shot you if you have only 10% health. Gank squads that run like babies when odds are even, but jump when they have a clear advantage. Greif sqauds that just kill newbs or miners/tradesman The list can go on forever with the anti social problems associated.
So yeah there is a serious problem for these studios that make these games that fail over and over again.
In reality all they need to do is separate PVE and PVP. Like UO Trammel, have a portal where people can go into the PVP zones at a time of their choosing. You can even have special areas that are full loot, no loot, arena, dueling any type of PVP you want, just give players a choice to do it when they want to. Dont force people into these zones.
Fav games are UO post trammel and DAOC, I did plenty of PVP, I play alot of PVP games, but I see the same mistakes time and time again. To much focus on PVP not enough on PVE. Games that focus on keeping PVE a top priority will more likely succeed in the MMORPG space.
Huh, it's not dead, you guys scared me for a moment again... guess I will see you next time we discuss for the 1037th time how PVP/MMO games are dead, teach those useless devs how to limit those pesky antisocial PVPers while teaching them how to play their game, or debate what RPG and MMO means (smiley to scare away Poe's law). Love y'all.
*this rotten tomato now logs in for some casual anti-social behaviour and griefing newbs with his 20 friends*
Arguing a point from a disingenuous position is a time honored practice here, and you've done so in classic textbook fashion here so well done sir.
Well describes the state of most PVP centric MMORPGs I think, well, those still running I mean.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
"having to attack" and "advantages" are irrelevant in an OW PVP game. That's the game. In the Albion example, the gatherer "has to" gather and evade to get his profit, and the ganker "has to" gank to get his. That's the game loop.
I appreciate this very clear statement - I'm not kidding, this is a good starting point for discussion.
My problem would be my opinion that the game loop you describe kind of sucks, at least from the risk vs. reward perspective. In a game like UO the gatherer could lose quite a bit while the attacking PK typically had next to nothing to lose (as far as loot).
The advantages of attacking are huge - going after a noob already fighting orcs is child's play. You say, "Get a posse together and hunt the PK". Oh, you mean the one that logs out at the first sign of blow back and watches a movie on Netflix while the posse blows an entire evening looking for him?
There is nothing 'fun' in that equation for the crafter or the posse.
"Oh, you mean the one that logs out at the first sign of blow back and watches a movie on Netflix while the posse blows an entire evening looking for him?"
That's the typical scenario. PvEer spends an hour or more digging up resources, and then a PKer or 2 comes along and in a few seconds they take it away, plus gear. The PKers run around for a half an hour doing the same to others. The PKer logs off, satisfied of a job well done. 10 to 1 PvEers log off, frustrated and pissed off because it happens all too often.
I was always a PvPer, but never a PKer. I enjoyed a good fight. At the same time, I watched a good number of Guildmates that I liked quit the game, and felt that loss of a different kind.
I once went to a meeting of players from my shard, to organize and do just what tzervo suggests. Defend against PKers. There were 10 Guilds represented there. They all wanted to be in charge, and the meeting broke up without results. I took names, and did a little research. 8 of those Guilds, the loudest, had known PKers in them. Go figure.
Huh, it's not dead, you guys scared me for a moment again... guess I will see you next time we discuss for the 1037th time how PVP/MMO games are dead, teach those useless devs how to limit those pesky antisocial PVPers while teaching them how to play their game, or debate what RPG and MMO means (smiley to scare away Poe's law). Love y'all.
*this rotten tomato now logs in for some casual anti-social behaviour and griefing newbs with his 20 friends*
Arguing a point from a disingenuous position is a time honored practice here, and you've done so in classic textbook fashion here so well done sir.
I once went to a meeting of players from my shard, to organize and do just what tzervo suggests. Defend against PKers.
Not what I said. Thanks in advance for not putting words in my mouth.
Potato, potahto, my friend. I like curly fries, but the others are still fries. (If they're made from real potatoes, lol.)
I like hot wings, but if you put even a single drop of vinegar in the sauce it ruins the hot wings.... Vinegar has no place in hot wing sauce, I know I lived in upstate NY where they were invented..... just saying.
I once went to a meeting of players from my shard, to organize and do just what tzervo suggests. Defend against PKers.
Not what I said. Thanks in advance for not putting words in my mouth.
Potato, potahto, my friend. I like curly fries, but the others are still fries. (If they're made from real potatoes, lol.)
Still not what I said.
If you cannot tell the difference, quote me for those who can, and the rest can agree with you. And I know what you are going to quote and it's ok.
Actually let me do that myself:
"But what if the ganker has 20 friends?" "But what if the gatherer is in guild territory and calls on a whole guild?"
Bolded is the one that I am guessing you "potahtoed".
Haha, you sound like an army sergeant. What it boils down to (see what I did there?) is it's one of those things. "I'll believe it when I see it." Because I've seen plenty of these promises over these many years, and they never actually happen as promised.
I've not followed the conversation up to this point. Too many pages.
All I can say is I'd eat garbage if I was hungry enough. I'm just starved for a good MMO to keep my attention.
I thought Lost Ark was my saving grave but something about it's current system just doesn't appeal to me. I want to kill things but I feel like I'm doing more busy work with collectibles and completing adventure tomes more than I am fighting stuff, which REALLY drains me of motivation.
First I think in the ganker/gatherer loop there is an embryo of a living world. Indeed, the gatherer should not be alone, and should go with friends or hire a bodyguard (or many). Which is bothering, if you just want to play alone, but it is the start of creating player interactions. However, it is not enough.
The main problem of this, is that the result of the combat is too predictable. For the ganker it is most of the time a success. The lone ganker will not select the guarded gatherer, but the lonely vulnerable one. Then comes the element of surprise and probably stun-like abilities or equivalent ones to make sure the guy dies (poison, bleeding). Whatever, the result often is the death of the gatherer.
What if the combat would be way more dangerous for everybody?
In real life, I have a friend who is weak. He is average size but really skinny, not physically impressive at all. A strong guy was walking his way, bumped in his shoulder on purpose to challenge him and asked: "You want to fight?" (lol)
It was the morning. My friend was drunk from the previous night. He had his hands in his pockets. He felt in there a corkscrew. Like a big one. Useful when you want to open bottles to get drunk, but also amazing when you suddenly pull it out and stick it in the face of a bully, and if, in the same movement you tear his face up to enlarge his smile Joker-style! Adrenaline does wonders! The disfigured strong man fell on the ground instantly. My friend ran away.
Back to the discussion:
So what if, critical strikes would be way more common, and way more deadly? Yes you are stronger, yes you are a seasoned warrior, yes you can take on multiple opponents by yourself, but no you are not god and yes you can receive that arrow in the knee or that corkscrew straight through your face.
What if injuries would have a lasting effect on your character?
What if you would never really die, but if, when defeated, you would be left for dead and need others to do the corpse run for you?... if nobody available then you would have to pay for NPCs services (trauma-team style)?
What if instead of making ganking easy, we could making stealing a bit easier. This way you don't take everything from the gatherer and hopefully, if not caught, you won't risk a fight.
Again, MMOs do not propose enough types of interactions.
I once went to a meeting of players from my shard, to organize and do just what tzervo suggests. Defend against PKers.
Not what I said. Thanks in advance for not putting words in my mouth.
Potato, potahto, my friend. I like curly fries, but the others are still fries. (If they're made from real potatoes, lol.)
Still not what I said.
If you cannot tell the difference, quote me for those who can, and the rest can agree with you. And I know what you are going to quote and it's ok.
Actually let me do that myself:
"But what if the ganker has 20 friends?" "But what if the gatherer is in guild territory and calls on a whole guild?"
Bolded is the one that I am guessing you "potahtoed".
When I was playing EVE it was my experience we PVEers in Corp or Alliance space were pretty much on our own when it came to home defense, especially against wandering gank roams.
The bulk of the alliance fleet was usually off fighting in some far off war front, except of course when the war was right in the immediate neighborhood.
We were expected to watch coms, always be in voice chat, safe up when enemies were sighted anywhere nearby, even if it meant logging for the night.
The best defense against gankers isn't to engage, that's what they are hoping for and usually plays into their hands.
Rather depriving them of any entertainment works the best, and woe to the Krab who lets their high value ship get stupidly killed, especially in home space as everyone knows it will encourage the gank roams to keep coming back.
Maybe Albion is different in this regard perhaps, but in EVE the very long travel distances and times definitely means gathering in home systems isn't nearly as good a counterpoint as you are implying.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Maybe Albion is different in this regard perhaps, but in EVE the very long travel distances and times definitely means gathering in home systems isn't nearly as good a counterpoint as you are implying.
It is. Or at least was when I was playing, don't expect it to have changed though. In EVE I mostly played solo, in Albion I was part of NERF at a time and gankers were hunted out of their territory. Though even in Albion I made most of my profit by abusing the island system in 100% safety.
I am actually surprised by what you say because it has not been my experience. Noted.
I think if I had connected with the right guild in Albion Online from the start I could have found a home there for a time.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
My personal take is if you want good PvP in a game then you need to have the proper rewards and achievements (and of course penalties) to encourage the hardcore players to fight one another rather than just go grief little jimmy pee pants, a level three nobody who's just trying to mind his own business and level fishing, until he throws up and leaves the game forever.
My personal take is if you want good PvP in a game then you need to have the proper rewards and achievements (and of course penalties) to encourage the hardcore players to fight one another rather than just go grief little jimmy pee pants, a level three nobody who's just trying to mind his own business and level fishing, until he throws up and leaves the game forever.
and have you found that game? I have never found a game where PVP was done well.
Comments
Please explain, if you think I'm wrong.
Once upon a time....
MOBAs do organized MMORPG PvP better than MMORPGs actually do it. You won't sustain an MMORPG on organized PvP alone. Mass PvP is much harder to balance and support wrt latency, and unless it's sequestered, has a tendency to severely limit your potential playerbase. Ignoring those things won't magically create a condition for PvP MMORPGs to flourish. And with shooters and medieval combat games like Chiv2 encroaching on that mass PvP in a way MMORPGs haven't even began to touch, the window of opportunity for a "PvP" mmorpg is only shrinking.
I was a DAoC lover. But today, if I want to siege a keep and take some heads with an axe, I load up Chiv2, not ESO or DAoC.
Once upon a time....
And those are successful, but only impressive if you refuse to place them in the context of their genres. They both also include areas where a player is effectively safe from being forced to PvP, which is the sequestering I mentioned.
Now, from all of this, you might assume I dislike the idea of an open world PvP MMORPG like UO/MO2. I don't. Really! I've just accepted the fact that technology may render that idea rather moot in terms of profitability, and to create a meaningful, intelligent, effective PK justice system, you have to take away the ability of players to both abuse mechanics AND hard reset by starting new accounts, even if they have to purchase a box and pay a sub to do so. The only way I've been able to wrap my head around realistically accomplishing that requires a much higher barrier to entry that isn't monetary. It's ID checks involving things like Driver's License numbers, so that players who are banned are *banned*.
Screeps does not appear to be an MMORPG either, as players control a colony and not a single player avatar. That really sets it apart from, say, MO2.
To say that "Gamers that don't like how pre-Trammel UO, MO2, etc PK works" should just find news games will only ensure you have less gaming opportunities for MMORPG PvP in general.
Driver's License numbers are public record, so it's strange that you would find that Orwellian. That doesn't seem very rational to me (truly, no offense meant). Getting banned from a game is a far, far cry from Orwellian oppression.
When I say RPG, I assume we're using the term as it's widely known, not as a technicality might include. Shooters have never been considered RPGs because they don't include many traditional RPG features. Even games like Battlefield and CoD, with the player rank progression (and combat roles in the case of Battlefield), are not realistically considered role-playing games.
Nobody is saying Foxhole isn't an innovative take. It's just not an MMORPG in any popular sense. It doesn't really help the MMORPG genre to innovate by trying to co-opt titles that happen to have massively multiplayer game loops/modes. One can compare Foxhole to ESO and find immediate, obvious, substantial gameplay loop differences. Those are important distinctions.
I've read posts like that ever since the beginning (UO, and on). They are designed to try to convince PvEers they can actually survive on a regular basis, and things never turn out that way. These posts leave a lot of the whole picture out.
In short, they are BS.
Once upon a time....
The reality is the moment you put PVE content into PVP zones (especially full loot) it sets off a chain reaction of design decisions that the vast majority of players don't want. Which is why these games fail over and over again.
Things like:
Gear becomes meaningless making hard to get gear that nobody wears or is not in the game.
People cant play casually or afk to take a bathroom break without coming back dead and no gear.
Cooperation when you see just some person, you have to worry if they will try to take your stuff rather than cooperation to help kill a boss/mob.
Cant kill difficult mobs because you are constantly worrying about if someone going one shot you if you have only 10% health.
Gank squads that run like babies when odds are even, but jump when they have a clear advantage.
Greif sqauds that just kill newbs or miners/tradesman
The list can go on forever with the anti social problems associated.
So yeah there is a serious problem for these studios that make these games that fail over and over again.
In reality all they need to do is separate PVE and PVP. Like UO Trammel, have a portal where people can go into the PVP zones at a time of their choosing. You can even have special areas that are full loot, no loot, arena, dueling any type of PVP you want, just give players a choice to do it when they want to. Dont force people into these zones.
Fav games are UO post trammel and DAOC, I did plenty of PVP, I play alot of PVP games, but I see the same mistakes time and time again. To much focus on PVP not enough on PVE. Games that focus on keeping PVE a top priority will more likely succeed in the MMORPG space.
There is someone to play even the worst games; see first sentence.
Well describes the state of most PVP centric MMORPGs I think, well, those still running I mean.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
That's the typical scenario.
PvEer spends an hour or more digging up resources, and then a PKer or 2 comes along and in a few seconds they take it away, plus gear. The PKers run around for a half an hour doing the same to others.
The PKer logs off, satisfied of a job well done.
10 to 1 PvEers log off, frustrated and pissed off because it happens all too often.
I was always a PvPer, but never a PKer. I enjoyed a good fight.
At the same time, I watched a good number of Guildmates that I liked quit the game, and felt that loss of a different kind.
I once went to a meeting of players from my shard, to organize and do just what tzervo suggests. Defend against PKers.
There were 10 Guilds represented there. They all wanted to be in charge, and the meeting broke up without results.
I took names, and did a little research. 8 of those Guilds, the loudest, had known PKers in them.
Go figure.
Once upon a time....
I like curly fries, but the others are still fries. (If they're made from real potatoes, lol.)
Once upon a time....
Sorry off track, continue on please
What it boils down to (see what I did there?) is it's one of those things.
"I'll believe it when I see it."
Because I've seen plenty of these promises over these many years, and they never actually happen as promised.
Once upon a time....
All I can say is I'd eat garbage if I was hungry enough. I'm just starved for a good MMO to keep my attention.
I thought Lost Ark was my saving grave but something about it's current system just doesn't appeal to me. I want to kill things but I feel like I'm doing more busy work with collectibles and completing adventure tomes more than I am fighting stuff, which REALLY drains me of motivation.
It was the morning. My friend was drunk from the previous night. He had his hands in his pockets. He felt in there a corkscrew. Like a big one. Useful when you want to open bottles to get drunk, but also amazing when you suddenly pull it out and stick it in the face of a bully, and if, in the same movement you tear his face up to enlarge his smile Joker-style! Adrenaline does wonders! The disfigured strong man fell on the ground instantly. My friend ran away.
The bulk of the alliance fleet was usually off fighting in some far off war front, except of course when the war was right in the immediate neighborhood.
We were expected to watch coms, always be in voice chat, safe up when enemies were sighted anywhere nearby, even if it meant logging for the night.
The best defense against gankers isn't to engage, that's what they are hoping for and usually plays into their hands.
Rather depriving them of any entertainment works the best, and woe to the Krab who lets their high value ship get stupidly killed, especially in home space as everyone knows it will encourage the gank roams to keep coming back.
Maybe Albion is different in this regard perhaps, but in EVE the very long travel distances and times definitely means gathering in home systems isn't nearly as good a counterpoint as you are implying.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
and have you found that game? I have never found a game where PVP was done well.